Re: Wynn restructures
 

[QUOTE=TheMalcolmConnection;304735]Not only that, if a player has shown to be solid the entire time he's been here and he BASICALLY takes a pay cut to stay on the team, he'll ALWAYS get my vote of confidence. Sure, he has to account for his contributions, but given his limited playing time, he was nothing but solid.[/QUOTE]

Well, I guess therein lies our disagreement.

You say he's been "solid".

I say he's been practically nonexistant.

Re: Wynn restructures
 

[quote=Beemnseven;304739]Well, I guess therein lies our disagreement.

You say he's been "solid".

I say he's been practically nonexistant.[/quote]

Just curious what you've been basing that on. Is it purely stats?

Re: Wynn restructures
 

Because if you want to go that route, Marcus Stroud had only 19 tackles last year. John Henderson had 38 (only a few more than Wynn in what you call his "has-been" years).

Re: Wynn restructures
 

You can't judge defensive lineman very well on tackles alone, as some people have already pointed out.

Re: Wynn restructures
 

[QUOTE=TheMalcolmConnection;304737]Aren't they young, hungry players? :doh:[/QUOTE]


Oh, I see. So since we have Golston and Montgomery, we have no need for anymore young, hungry players at the D-line!

:doh: indeed.

Re: Wynn restructures
 

That could be said about any position on either side of the ball.

Re: Wynn restructures
 

I'd also like to say that I applaud the front office for their foresight at our linebacking situation. Who knows how Washington or McIntosh heal, so they actually got some "steals" in the later rounds.

Re: Wynn restructures
 

[QUOTE=TheMalcolmConnection;304740]Just curious what you've been basing that on. Is it purely stats?[/QUOTE]


So what would give you the impression that he's been "solid" ??

You already said that his playing time was reduced due to the presence of Golston and Montgomery. So if that's the case, why are we keeping an 11-year veteran when 5th and 6th round picks offer more than he's able to give us?

Oh, I forgot -- he's a great "locker room leader." :rolleyes:

Re: Wynn restructures
 

[QUOTE=TheMalcolmConnection;304743]Because if you want to go that route, Marcus Stroud had only 19 tackles last year. John Henderson had 38 (only a few more than Wynn in what you call his "has-been" years).[/QUOTE]

In Beem's defense a DE should get more tackles than a DT.

In your defense, while Wynn had "only" 24 tackles in 2005, Dwight Freeney had 29.

In my defense, Justin Smith had 45 tackles in 2005 (50 in 2006) ;)

Holla at ya boy Dmek!

Re: Wynn restructures
 

For the record, Landry is probably the right pick.

Though I still wonder if Okoye will provide the type of help we could have used.

Marcus Stroud and John Henderson? They're starters. And I understand that sometimes, a player's contibution is his ability to tie up blockers while letting other guys make the tackle.

But I'd venture to guess that their playing time far exceeds anything Renaldo Wynn had -- so your comparison doesn't quite work does it?

Re: Wynn restructures
 

[quote=Beemnseven;304754]So what would give you the impression that he's been "solid" ??

You already said that his playing time was reduced due to the presence of Golston and Montgomery. So if that's the case, why are we keeping an 11-year veteran when 5th and 6th round picks offer more than he's able to give us?

Oh, I forgot -- he's a great "locker room leader." :rolleyes:[/quote]

The reason I get that impression is because I watched all those games in 2004, 2005 and 2006 much like I'm sure you did. I don't EVER recall Wynn being a scapegoat (as many players were) in those years. We never were like, "Man oh man, Wynn really screwed the pooch that game. We should cut him!" While he hasn't been an all-star by any means, there should not be any outcry with keeping someone as solid on the team for what is essentially vet minimum.

While I do agree we need more depth along the defensive line, I think the argument that you're presenting that we should cut Wynn nor show him any votes of confidence is a bit unfounded.

Re: Wynn restructures
 

[quote=Beemnseven;304757]For the record, Landry is probably the right pick.

Though I still wonder if Okoye will provide the type of help we could have used.

Marcus Stroud and John Henderson? They're starters. And I understand that sometimes, a player's contibution is his ability to tie up blockers while letting other guys make the tackle.

But I'd venture to guess that their playing time far exceeds anything Renaldo Wynn had -- so your comparison doesn't quite work does it?[/quote]

Actually it does. Stroud had only a couple more tackles than Wynn while starting and playing almost every down the ENTIRE YEAR? Most would think that supports what I'm trying to say.

Re: Wynn restructures
 

[QUOTE=TheMalcolmConnection;304760]Actually it does. Stroud had only a couple more tackles than Wynn while starting and playing almost every down the ENTIRE YEAR? Most would think that supports what I'm trying to say.[/QUOTE]


But again, you are forgetting that Stroud and Henderson are more likely tying up blockers.

TMC, let's not descend into the absurd -- are you really implying that Stroud and Henderson aren't any better than Renaldo Wynn?

It is my position that for whatever Wynn's cap space amounts to, we could have virtually any other player who might be able to contribute more, even in limited action.

Re: Wynn restructures
 

While I'm not comparing them to their abilities, your argument is founded solely on stats. I'm just saying that Pro Bowlers like Henderson and Stroud have similar stats. Wynn did the same thing they did, he tied up blockers.

And honestly, I would very much disagree that we could find someone to play as well or better for the money we're paying him. PRIOR to his pay cut, I would have agreed, but for now, I think he's a bargain.

Re: Wynn restructures
 

Seems that the simple point here is tackles don't mean squat when you are evaluating lineman.

Re: Wynn restructures
 

Right. I'm just going by what I've seen and what we've heard year-after-year from the coaches about his abilities.

Re: Wynn restructures
 

[quote=Mattyk72;304117]I agree. As I said in another thread I think a lot of us got too focused on the defensive line and forgot that our secondary was pretty piss poor last year too. Landry will hopefully be what we thought AA was going to be. An in the box safety that will be stout against the run and will also be a serious blitz threat.[/quote]

Exactly. I love that other people are starting to see the light too. You add Landry and noe we can send people from everywhere, both him and taylor can drop in coverage, blitz, and will hit the living Sh*t out of people.

Last year we only rushed three alot and dropped 8 back because we were so terrible in coverage. Now we can drop 4 or 5 and be just as effective if not more.

We have solid Depth all around the secondary and LB's. We even have solid depth at DT with Montgomery and Golston. We could use another DE for depth but i really think the defense will turn it around. Although our DL won't get the most sacks they will occupy blockers and watch for M. Washington to have about 8 sacks this year.

Re: Wynn restructures
 

No, my argument isn't based solely on stats. If he were the dominating force you describe him to be, Golston, Montgomery, and Daniels wouldn't have the playing time Wynn should be getting.

You think it would be [I]impossible [/I]to find another player who could eclipse what Wynn could give us?

Re: Wynn restructures
 

I don't think it would be impossible, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find one. I think that any team we could FIND one on, wouldn't be willing to part because of the deal they're getting themselves. Again, I'm only showing him this kind of allegiance because of the fact he is taking the very minimum a veteran can get.

If he had kept his current salary, I'm totally in agreement with you in the fact he needed to be cut.

Re: Wynn restructures
 

The coaches want to keep Wynn. That should be enough. They see more film then you do and are on the field up close. Plus add all of the practice time they evaluate how each person performs in practice.
You can never judge defensive lineman on stats.
Last year Wyn lost his starting job, we brought in a pure pass rusher #99 and we got less sacks and our run defense went to hell. Are you blaming that on Wynn? Why aren't you blaming # 99 who is making more money than Wynn and in the first half of the season was pushed around like a little girl.
I would rather give up on the pass rush DE # 99 who got just a few sacks last year and than be one of the worst run defenses. #99 better improve his run stopping abilities or he will be cut. He is making too much money to be a pass rush only guy.

Re: Wynn restructures
 

[quote=724Skinsfan;304085]Well said, Big C![/quote]i 2nd that...

Re: Wynn restructures
 

[quote=Defensewins;304782]The coaches want to keep Wynn. That should be enough. They see more film then you do and are on the field up close. Plus add all of the practice time they evaluate how each person performs in practice.
You can never judge defensive lineman on stats.
Last year Wyn lost his starting job, we brought in a pure pass rusher #99 and we got less sacks and our run defense went to hell. Are you blaming that on Wynn? Why aren't you blaming # 99 who is making more money than Wynn and in the first half of the season was pushed around like a little girl.
I iwould rather give up on the pass rush DE # 99 who gots a few sacks last year and than be one of the worst run defenses. #99 better improve his run stopping abilities or he will be cut.[/quote]

Then you have to make the argument that it might have been the person playing behind him... Why isn't Holdman still on the hook? It must be because he's already gone. :)

Re: Wynn restructures
 

Again, like I think Matty said, it was just a down year for the entire D as a whole last year. But unlike some others have suggested, an ENTIRE team doesn't regress like in from one year to the next. It was key injuries and key losses (as well as "key" additions like AA) that made this defense poor.

We recouped Smoot, have some decent depth at DB and LB AND have a proven player in the middle, leaving Marshall to play back in his spot where he dominated in 2004.

Re: Wynn restructures
 

Dont even get me started on Wynn and Daniels. They suck, plain and simple. They are very vocal in post-game interviews after a loss, and that's it. What has Daniels done beside the 5 sack performance against that rookie Dallas tackle in 2005? Same for Wynn - competing in wing-eating contests with Randy Thomas for Comcast Sportsnet and being media-friendly has been the extent of his performance.

That said, I'm comfortable with his restructuring and saving us cap room, but if we have to depend on him for sacks and pressure, then I'm pretty f...g far from okay.

Re: Wynn restructures
 

Wynn and Daniels were part of a top 10 D for us. When Williams D works, the Dline clogs the run and keeps people off the LBs and safeties so they can bring pressure. So tackle and sack stats aren't central to judging what works in this D.

That being said, GW and co clearly decided the trouble was behind the line, not on it. I hope they are right, because we did nothing to help the line. Wynn taking a pay cut is good, because he was not worth it at his current salary. Let's hope they use the extra cap to get some help, though there isn't much around.

Re: Wynn restructures
 

[QUOTE=Defensewins;304782]The coaches want to keep Wynn. That should be enough. They see more film then you do and are on the field up close. Plus add all of the practice time they evaluate how each person performs in practice.
You can never judge defensive lineman on stats.
Last year Wyn lost his starting job, we brought in a pure pass rusher #99 and we got less sacks and our run defense went to hell. Are you blaming that on Wynn? Why aren't you blaming # 99 who is making more money than Wynn and in the first half of the season was pushed around like a little girl.
I would rather give up on the pass rush DE # 99 who got just a few sacks last year and than be one of the worst run defenses. #99 better improve his run stopping abilities or he will be cut. He is making too much money to be a pass rush only guy.[/QUOTE]

The coaches wanted Adam Archuleta. The coaches also wanted Andre Carter. So you basically destroyed your own argument.

Thanks!

Re: Wynn restructures
 

[QUOTE=TheMalcolmConnection;304787]Again, like I think Matty said, it was just a down year for the entire D as a whole last year. But unlike some others have suggested, [B]an ENTIRE team doesn't regress like in from one year to the next[/B]. It was key injuries and key losses (as well as "key" additions like AA) that made this defense poor.[/QUOTE]

See, I think they can. In 1992, we went from a dominating offense the year before to one that couldn't score a touchdown over several weeks.

Of course you can regress in one year.

Re: Wynn restructures
 

[quote=Beemnseven;304821]See, I think they can. In 1992, we went from a dominating offense the year before to one that couldn't score a touchdown over several weeks.

Of course you can regress in one year.[/quote]

I was 10, I don't remember. :(

Could you, or anyone else who remembers tell me if there were any weird factors that year that caused such a drop off?

Re: Wynn restructures
 

[QUOTE=TheMalcolmConnection;304854]I was 10, I don't remember. :(

Could you, or anyone else who remembers tell me if there were any weird factors that year that caused such a drop off?[/QUOTE]

Nope. They got old. Simple as that. Art Monk lost a step, Ryp wasn't on the same page with Sanders and Clark, while guys like Bostic, Jacoby, and Grimm had been there for 12+ years. That led to a stall in the running game when Byner stuggled to get past the 1000 yard mark for the season. The D was a little bit better, and really they guided the team to the playoffs that year.

But by 1993 the team had completely run out of gas. The window can close fast. Any player will tell you that. I've posted this before, but on a Redskins post game show last season Charles Mann was co-hosting. The subject came up as to how fast guys can go from being serviceable to old. When Mann signed with the 49ers, he said that he got old almost as quick as the flight from D.C. to San Fran.

I believe the same thing happened to the front four from '05 to '06. That's what scares me for this season.

Re: Wynn restructures
 

The '92 team was old, hell the '91 team wasn't full of spring chickens either.

But I think in '92 they mostly suffered from the classic Super Bowl hangover.

Here they were a team full of vets who finally reached the peak of the mountain and in dominant fashion. The offseason after the SB was full of distractions, book deals, commercials, etc., and they simply were not as hungry the next year.

I think that hurt them more than age.

Re: Wynn restructures
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10;304721]This move saves us $1.5 million in cap space.[/QUOTE]

That's quite a move by us if you ask me. To save 1.5 mil is GREAT.

Re: Wynn restructures
 

[quote=jsarno;304908]That's quite a move by us if you ask me. To save 1.5 mil is GREAT.[/quote]

Yeah, saving the cap space is great and all, if you do something useful with the space you created. Otherwise it means jack.

Hopefully the space will go towards resigning core players or maybe even bringing someone in to fill a need via trade or post-June 1.

Re: Wynn restructures
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10;304950]Yeah, saving the cap space is great and all, if you do something useful with the space you created. Otherwise it means jack.

Hopefully the space will go towards resigning core players or maybe even bringing someone in to fill a need via trade or post-June 1.[/QUOTE]

Well, any chance to save money is good, cause even if we didn't use it this year, we are better off for it in the future. However, I do feel they are making the room to sign someone important (DE I hope) after June 1st. At worst, it shows others that you need to restructure to survive, and the fact that it's someone as respected as Wynn shows us that he thinks we're heading in the right direction, and will likely pass that on to other players.

Re: Wynn restructures
 

[quote=hurrykaine;304798]Dont even get me started on Wynn and Daniels. They suck, plain and simple. They are very vocal in post-game interviews after a loss, and that's it. What has Daniels done beside the 5 sack performance against that rookie Dallas tackle in 2005? Same for Wynn - competing in wing-eating contests with Randy Thomas for Comcast Sportsnet and being media-friendly has been the extent of his performance.

That said, I'm comfortable with his restructuring and saving us cap room, but if we have to depend on him for sacks and pressure, then I'm pretty f...g far from okay.[/quote]

Both guys really need to go but we don't have any other options right now at DE. So we have to go with what we have. I expect alot of blitzing w/ the upgrades in the secondary so we won't really need either to rush the passer.

Re: Wynn restructures
 

[QUOTE=skinsfan69;304971]Both guys really need to go but we don't have any other options right now at DE. So we have to go with what we have. I expect alot of blitzing w/ the upgrades in the secondary so we won't really need either to rush the passer.[/QUOTE]

I'm confident (ok, hopeful) that we'll pick up a DE after June 1st, so these guys will make good tutors and back up plan for the rest of the team. They are good for the team in the locker room, and they can be adaquate if needed to play a few downs. As long as we sign another DE, we will have "depth" at DE. (wow, I can't beleive I said that).

Re: Wynn restructures
 

Remember how just a couple of months ago we had this huge thread about the Redskins signing DE Chris Wilson from the CFL, and now it's as if that never happened.

For better or worse, he is depth...for now

By the way, I'm calling it now. Watch out for DT Jared Clauss this summer

Re: Wynn restructures
 

[quote=Beemnseven;304865]Nope. They got old. Simple as that. Art Monk lost a step, Ryp wasn't on the same page with Sanders and Clark, while guys like Bostic, Jacoby, and Grimm had been there for 12+ years. That led to a stall in the running game when Byner stuggled to get past the 1000 yard mark for the season. The D was a little bit better, and really they guided the team to the playoffs that year.

But by 1993 the team had completely run out of gas. The window can close fast. Any player will tell you that. I've posted this before, but on a Redskins post game show last season Charles Mann was co-hosting. The subject came up as to how fast guys can go from being serviceable to old. When Mann signed with the 49ers, he said that he got old almost as quick as the flight from D.C. to San Fran.

I believe the same thing happened to the front four from '05 to '06. That's what scares me for this season.[/quote]

You hit that one right on the money. But I'll tell you something. That was one of Gibbs/Pettibone's best coaching performacnes. The 92 team was not very good. I remember we didn't even score a TD for several games in a row that year. Rypien was just terrible and Gibbs refused to bench him. I went to the last game of the season that year against Oak. I watched 87 year old Vince Evans look like Dan Marino that day. And Rypien was just terrible and we lost and everyone thought the season was over. Then somebody beat somebody, we got in and beat Minn. on the road. And very easily could have won the next week in SF when the field was all messed up. The WR's dropped passes, Rypien missed guys, B.Mitch fumbled in a critical situation and we lost.

I think Gibbs saw the writing on the wall and that was part of the reason he left. He saw the team was old and needed to be completly rebuilt.

Re: Wynn restructures
 

[quote=SmootSmack;304978]Remember how just a couple of months ago we had this huge thread about the Redskins signing DE Chris Wilson from the CFL, and now it's as if that never happened.

For better or worse, he is depth...for now

By the way, I'm calling it now. Watch out for DT Jared Clauss this summer[/quote]

I didn't forget about the 240 DE from up North. He's the next Dwight Freeney.

Re: Wynn restructures
 

[QUOTE=skinsfan69;304982]I didn't forget about the 240 DE from up North. He's the next Dwight Freeney.[/QUOTE]

Damn straight! :)

Re: Wynn restructures
 

What it comes down to is:

Can Wynn be replaced with someone who could do just as good a job for less money?

No one has presented any type of decent argument that he could.

Beem I never saw TMC say Wynn was "dominating". What he said was that for the price we were getting a leader and a guy who does a solid if unspectacular job. You seem to think we can magically find some "young and hungry" players to do the same thing and I would say to you that of all the DL taken in this years draft maybe 15 will ever be better than Wynn is now. Wynn is certainly only average but average is better than 50% of the league. There aren't some magical young players out there to come in and do what they want him to do while also offering the leadership.

I don't think he is off the hook I simply think many value some of his more intangible contributions while I think you are undervaluing his on field contributions.