Re: Belichick...Best of All Time????
 

No problem, this thread is still headed in the right direction so far

Re: Belichick...Best of All Time????
 

[quote=Schneed10;314600]Also, you clearly are missing my point on his Browns' tenure. That stint does nothing to take away from his accomplishments in New England.[/quote]
Schneed... according to my wife, that would not be the first time I have done this...

But my point was if the Brown's had not moved.... he had things going in the right direction.

Re: Belichick...Best of All Time????
 

[quote=Mattyk72;314609]No problem, this thread is still headed in the right direction so far[/quote]
OK.. I accept my :spank:

Re: Belichick...Best of All Time????
 

[quote=Redskin Rich;314616]Schneed... according to my wife, that would not be the first time I have done this...

But my point was if the Brown's had not moved.... he had things going in the right direction.[/quote]

I think you and I are on the same page, I think Belichick is the friggin man. I just wouldn't rank him top 5.

Re: Belichick...Best of All Time????
 

Quick answer, no. Best of this era, yes.

Re: Belichick...Best of All Time????
 

[quote=memphisskin;314640]Cleveland is tough, can't dismiss it because it did happen, but whoa what a bounce back. But as far as coaches go I'd have to go with Parcells over Belichick because his least successful stop was Dallas and he still made the playoffs twice there. (Yaaaak! Ralph! Earl! Recch! :vomit:)

I'd go

1. Lombardi
2. Shula
3. Gibbs
4. Noll
5. Walsh

Belichick is in the discussion, and if/when he wins another SB (Brady to Moss should have been banned) then he's top 5.[/quote]
Memphis,

Let me ask you a question. For EACH of Parcells Super Bowl appearances... who was his defensive coordinator? What did he accomplish the years with the Patriots and Cowboys without that coordinator vs what he accomplished with him??? He did squat in NE without Belichick and backed into the playoffs 2 times with the cowgirls.

Re: Belichick...Best of All Time????
 

Belichick....best of all time? I hope that's a joke...? Not EVEN CLOSE to Mr. GIBBS!

Re: Belichick...Best of All Time????
 

[quote=Redskin Rich;314616]But my point was if the Brown's had not moved.... he had things going in the right direction.[/quote]IMO, I don't think an HC has the ability to get a team going in the right direction. The greatest good for a coach is to give his team the greatest and most consistent advantage year in and year out. You can do this motivationally, or you can do this strategically.

But ultimately, the expected responsibility of the coach is to make sure he is playing the best 11 players for any given situation. And I don't know how someone can make a top ten list and leave Andy Reid off it. All-time.

I'm torn on Gibbs. I mean he created one of the most innovative and effective systems ever and clearly used his talent correctly. But as the generations passed and more and more of the population became interested in football coaching, it's clear that the old horses like Gibbs and Parcells, while still incredibly effective coaches, were not so elite anymore. Since anyone can [I]learn[/I] how to coach, the consistent winners are the teams who have better [I]football players[/I], a skill that cannot easily be taught.

In the 60s and 70s, a dominant coach could give a big edge to his team. Nowadays, the guy on the other sideline knows all the tricks and trades that you do. You have little advantage over the other 31 coaches, and due to this, the effect of coaching on the outcome of games is nearly nullified.

Anyway, here's my list:

1. Vince Lombardi
2. Bill Walsh
3. Don Shula
4. Andy Reid
5. John Madden
6. Bill Belicheik
7. Bill Cowher
8. Paul Brown
9. Chuck Noll
10. Dick Vermeil

Re: Belichick...Best of All Time????
 

GTripp,

I don't know how you can elevate guys like Andy Reid above coaches like Joe Gibbs. 4th best coach of ALL TIME? I have all the respect in the world for Reid, but he doesn't hold a candle to Gibbs. To do what Gibbs did with so many different players is simply amazing.

Re: Belichick...Best of All Time????
 

hell no he isnt even close!!!!!!!

Re: Belichick...Best of All Time????
 

Reid?

This thread just went to hell. :doh:

Re: Belichick...Best of All Time????
 

[quote=Mattyk72;314750]Reid?

This thread just went to hell. :doh:[/quote]

Matty & SGG, this is the lost thread. How in the world you would with ANY logic rate reid at #4, that's just a JOKE!

GIBBS #1

Re: Belichick...Best of All Time????
 

Ask me after this year. Charlie Weiss may end up having been Belichek's Belichek. Or Gibbs could add another.

And GTripp. Reid? How many conference finals has he lost at home?

Re: Belichick...Best of All Time????
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;314745]GTripp,

I don't know how you can elevate guys like Andy Reid above coaches like Joe Gibbs. 4th best coach of ALL TIME? I have all the respect in the world for Reid, but he doesn't hold a candle to Gibbs. To do what Gibbs did with so many different players is simply amazing.[/quote]I guess thats where we differ. I think Gibbs does a very good job, to say the least, with player management, keeping his guys happy and all. But isn't that his job?

There are better coaches, past and present than Joe Gibbs. We have enough of a sample on Reid to know that he does the little things like clock managment and delegating.

But as I said before, the effect of coaching on overall performance accross the league is probably at its smallest effect in NFL history, so it's not really that big of a deal.

Re: Belichick...Best of All Time????
 

[quote=skinsfan_nn;314759]Matty & SGG, this is the lost thread. How in the world you would with ANY logic rate reid at #4, that's just a JOKE!

GIBBS #1[/quote]I think you are confusing the word "logic" with "blatent homerism".

Not that theres anything wrong with that, so long as you realize that its not a serious evaluation of anything.

Re: Belichick...Best of All Time????
 

[quote=70Chip;314820]Ask me after this year. Charlie Weiss may end up having been Belichek's Belichek. Or Gibbs could add another.

And GTripp. Reid? How many conference finals has he lost at home?[/quote]Two. And I savored each one for weeks.

Not sure how that detracts from Reid as a coach though. Unless you are claiming that he didn't have his guys ready or the like?

Re: Belichick...Best of All Time????
 

[quote=GTripp0012;314844]Two. And I savored each one for weeks.

Not sure how that detracts from Reid as a coach though. Unless you are claiming that he didn't have his guys ready or the like?[/quote]

Well it certainly doesn't add anything. Is it your position that the Eagles are a really average team and only his brilliant coaching took them that far?

If you are at home you are favored to win so he basically got upset twice. So I guess I don't think he had his guys ready. Gibbs is about 7 and 1 in home playoff games.

Re: Belichick...Best of All Time????
 

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;314841]But as I said before, the effect of coaching on overall performance accross the league is probably at its smallest effect in NFL history, so it's not really that big of a deal.[/QUOTE]

How can you say that? How can you say what "overall performance" would be without coaching, when every team is led by a coach? The league is full of examples is which coach A leads a team to a horrible record and is fired and coach B comes in and takes basically the same team and produces a winning team.

And I still have no clue how Andy Reid (as good as he is) is put ahead of coaches like Bill Parcells and Joe Gibbs.

Re: Belichick...Best of All Time????
 

[quote=70Chip;314851]Well it certainly doesn't add anything. Is it your position that the Eagles are a really average team and only his brilliant coaching took them that far?

If you are at home you are favored to win so he basically got upset twice. So I guess I don't think he had his guys ready. Gibbs is about 7 and 1 in home playoff games.[/quote]I think 2002 Tampa Bay was better than 2002 Philadelphia. Can't say the same about 03 Carolina (to 03 Philly).

But in any case, you are looking at a two game sample. Could be (and probably was) complete luck that the Eagles didn't win the NFC more than once in that era. Or it could be a combination of stiff competition and untimely whatever. On the whole, its only two games no matter how important they might have been.

Not that I'm complaining or anything.

:food-smil

Re: Belichick...Best of All Time????
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;314853]How can you say that? How can you say what "overall performance" would be without coaching, when every team is led by a coach? The league is full of examples is which coach A leads a team to a horrible record and is fired and coach B comes in and takes basically the same team and produces a winning team.

And I still have no clue how Andy Reid (as good as he is) is put ahead of coaches like Bill Parcells and Joe Gibbs.[/quote]An educated guess based on years and years of data.

If coaching was all there is to winning, the leagues's best coach would go 16-0 every season. So we can establish through common sense that coaching accounts for significantly less than the entire outcome of any given game.

SGG, try looking at it this way: How often does a coach lose a game for his team? I mean, how often does a team come back to the locker room and say "we would have won that game (with 100% certainty) with 31 other coaches, but somehow we lost", and be accurate. I doubt this can be said in the last ten years. I reasonably estimate that 98% or more of a coaches in-game decisions would be ones that are complete no brainers, that is to say that every coach in the NFL would make the same call, the right call.

The remaining 2% or the "questionable decisions" are what defines a coach's in game ability. However, if we theoretically assume that coach A will always make the correct questionable decision, and coach B will always make the worst questionable decision, how many wins will coach B cost his team over coach A? Put it this way: if you guessed one per season, I'd argue you are overestimating this effect.

This is why I feel its somewhat pointless to second guess coaching decisions. While his in game performance suggests that he should be fired, coach B would still have won 60 games over the last 5 years if he coached the Colts.

In the current game, Andy Reid and Bill Belichick would be my Coach A prototypes, and I'd say either Herman Edwards or John Fox might have been my type Bs. That part is just my opinion, but Edwards and Fox have both won in this league, no thanks to their in game coaching decisions.

A coaches' offensive/defensive system is another slight variable, but the system is only going to be as good as the men who make it work. Every coach in the league has a system. Having a good system gives a slight advantage, but if you are facing Peyton Manning, you wont remember that advantage at the end of the 60 minutes.

Re: Belichick...Best of All Time????
 

[quote=GTripp0012;314856]I think 2002 Tampa Bay was better than 2002 Philadelphia. Can't say the same about 03 Carolina (to 03 Philly).

But in any case, you are looking at a two game sample. Could be (and probably was) complete luck that the Eagles didn't win the NFC more than once in that era. Or it could be a combination of stiff competition and untimely whatever. On the whole, its only two games no matter how important they might have been.

Not that I'm complaining or anything.

:food-smil[/quote]
You would think that the 4th greatest coach in history would have a larger sample, I agree.

Norv Turner is the all time greatest and everyone would know this if he had a larger sample of playoff games.

Re: Belichick...Best of All Time????
 

The biggest coaching blunder of the last ten years was unquestionablly Wade Phillips' refusal to play Doug Flutie over Rob Johnson in Buffalo. This cost the Bills many wins. But hence my qualifier: that the primary defining quality of a head coach is ability to make sure he always has the best 11 guys on the field for the situation. Phillips clearly failed in his responsibility.

Once you have your best players on the field, the rest is semantics and luck.

Re: Belichick...Best of All Time????
 

[quote=70Chip;314860]You would think that the 4th greatest coach in history would have a larger sample, I agree.

Norv Turner is the all time greatest and everyone would know this if he had a larger sample of playoff games.[/quote]8 possible oppertunities? 4 apperances in the conference champ game? Playoff berths in 75% of his attempts?

Are we just assessing a penalty for being not being a dinosaur? Madden coached one more year than Reid has so far, won his conference the eqivelent number of times, and no one has an issue with that call.

Presumably because hes old.

Re: Belichick...Best of All Time????
 

[quote=GTripp0012;314862]8 possible oppertunities? 4 apperances?

Are we just assessing a penalty for being not being a dinosaur? Madden coached one more year than Reid has so far, won his conference the eqivelent number of times, and no one has an issue with that call.

Presumably because hes old.[/quote]

Not at all. I think Belichek is up there and he's active. I think winning multiple SB's is what seperates good and great. Perhaps its not a perfect criteria but it is the most widely accepted. And if you don't use championships as a marker then I could say Lou Saban or Jack Pardee. All hell would break loose. I think my frustration over this is that so many people treat the Eagles like a dynasty and they haven't won anything. Why isn't Marv Levy on your list? Were the Bills that much better than the Eagles.

Re: Belichick...Best of All Time????
 

My List:

Vince Lombardi
Bill Walsh
Chuck Noll
Bill Belechek
George Halas
Don Shula
Curly Lambeau
Paul Brown
Joe Gibbs
Tom Landry
Sid Gillman
Bill Parcells
John Madden
Weeb Ewbank
Hank Stram
George Allen
Mike Holmgren
Mike Shanahan
Jimmy Johnson
Tony Dungey

Re: Belichick...Best of All Time????
 

[quote=70Chip;314864]Not at all. I think Belichek is up there and he's active. I think winning multiple SB's is what seperates good and great. Perhaps its not a perfect criteria but it is the most widely accepted. And if you don't use championships as a marker then I could say Lou Saban or Jack Pardee. All hell would break loose. I think my frustration over this is that so many people treat the Eagles like a dynasty and they haven't won anything. Why isn't Marv Levy on your list? Were the Bills that much better than the Eagles.[/quote]If you thought Saban/Pardee were among the best coaches ever, you should have said that. I know very little about either, so its possible that they could be the best two coaches ever and I would just be ignorant to it.

I just don't think that this list should be taking a list of ten legends, and arranging them according to personal preference. There actually should be criteria to meet, and at the top of my list was "uses personel to best possible utility". And IMHO, only Lombardi (with practically everyone he tried), Walsh (particularly with properly finding and utilizing two of the greatest QBs to ever play, and for scouting out Jeff Garcia), Shula (with the Earl Morall situation) ranked ahead of Reid.

And I'm not forgetting about Gibbs' quarterback utilization in the 80's, but IMO that doesn't seal his top ten fate. If I didn't get to see him match up vs. modern coaches, I certainly would have him there. But seeing him not clearly outcoach people on a week to week basis, I slid him out of my top ten.

And that's not to detract from his greatness, just to demonstrate how great I feel the ten I chose really are.

If a coach is handed superstars by his GM, he shouldn't have a problem starting them. If he's handed a bunch of spare parts, its up to him to find the hidden gems. The great ones will always play the best 11, regardless of prior rep.

Re: Belichick...Best of All Time????
 

The Top 3 Coaches ever in this order. Vince Lombardi, John Madden, Joe Gibbs(Before he returned) Hands down bar none. Based on winning percentage regular season, post season, and championchips. I would put Billy somewhere in the top ten.

Re: Belichick...Best of All Time????
 

JOE GIBBS!! I cant belive this is even a question

Re: Belichick...Best of All Time????
 

[QUOTE=angryssg;314869]The Top 3 Coaches ever in this order. Vince Lombardi, John Madden, Joe Gibbs(Before he returned) Hands down bar none. Based on winning percentage regular season, post season, and championchips. I would put Billy somewhere in the top ten.[/QUOTE]

No way are Gibbs & Madden 2 of the top 3 coaches of all time. Gibbs is great and belongs in the top 10. I'm not sure Madden makes the top 10.

Re: Belichick...Best of All Time????
 

I personally hate Bellichek, but he seems to win regardless of injuries, who's on his roster, etc. If he wins 1-2 more super bowls I will find it very hard to not say he's one of the best.

Re: Belichick...Best of All Time????
 

[QUOTE=skinsfan69;314582]Well you could use the same agument w/ Gibbs 1 and Gibbs 2.

Gibbs 1 had a GM and Gibbs 2 does not.[/QUOTE]


Gibbs is unique though in how spread out his tenures are...he came back into a completely different league. But yes he is the perfect example of how even the best of coaches need a good GM to succeed.