Re: Free Scooter Libby
 

[QUOTE=12thMan;323948]Well, he was convicted of perjury, making false statements...and [I]obstruction of justice[/I]. I find it hard to believe and very unlikely that a jury erred on all three counts after much deliberating and looking at all the evidence. Furthermore, the main players putting Libby on trial and handing down the sentencing were by and large Republicans. So one would, at least I would think, have to remove any political motivation for convicting him.

Additionally, Bush out of his own mouth said several months ago if anyone - anyone- is convicted in this case he would personally fire them. So what does he do, commute the dudes sentence instead.

For the record, it's the President's prerogative to excerise Executive Privilege, as far as I'm concerned. Every administration has had their share of questionable pardons or what have you. But the fact that this involved national security, there was evidence of White House involvement, and yet no one goes to jail, it just doesn't sit well with me.[/QUOTE]

Actually he was convicted on 4 counts, not 3. All stemming from one thing. His discussion with Russert.

The entire situation was simply bogus. To assert that politcs weren't the motivation here is absurd. Republicans didn't push this, Democrats did. If one looks at the case reasonably it really is very obvious that no one did anything illegal. Even Armitage didn't do anything illegal since Plame was not covered under the Shield laws. What sits badly with me is the millions of dollars spent persuing an investigation into a non-crime that by all appearances looks like a politcal hit job to catch someone in a "lie". Fitzgerald is a great prosecutor. It gives me shudders to think what he could pin on anyone when he can geta conviction on these types of counts when the only evidence is the testimony of one no less or more trustworthy source.

If he had really done something wrong then this conversation wouldn't even be going on. But it really seems very clear to me that he got screwed here. He took the fall for a non-crime that did not involve national security in any way. That is wrong.

Re: Free Scooter Libby
 

I am confused why everyone thinks Bush went back on his word? He didn't say he wouldn't pardon or commute anyone's sentcen. He aid he'd fire them. Well Libby is gone so what is the big deal from that standpoint?

Re: Free Scooter Libby
 

[quote=dmek25;323951]Libby was found GUILTY by a jury of his peers on 2 counts, one of perjury, the other on obstruction of justice. the judge had nothing to do with that. i don't remember isn't a defense. as 12th remembered, Mr Bush SAID he would fire ANYONE that is convicted of this, no matter who it was. the president has the power to make this go away, but why all the back tracking?[/quote]
He quit so Bush could not have fired him and if I'm correct he said he would fire the person found to have leaked her name. Which latter was found out was not illegal and second the person investigating the leak allready knew who leaked this information. Where you as tough on Bill Clinton when he pardond those 24 pages of people when he left office?

Re: Free Scooter Libby
 

some of the people Clinton pardoned i was down right pissed about. but then again, Clinton never once said he would fire any of those. for those who always say the president never lies, what do you have to say now? you cannot go into court and use i don't remember as your defense. people in the high positions that these politicians hold are paid to remember. but i do agree that Libby was just the fall guy for some higher ups

Re: Free Scooter Libby
 

I am sort of tired of the Bush/Clinton comparisons. Everything is allways "well Bush did this" and "Clinton did that". They both suck in their own ways. I am over that. I feel like it is only a deflective thing anyways. In this case I genuinely feel Libby has gotten shafted and no one with the voice to do ti stood up and said "This is crap"

Re: Free Scooter Libby
 

[QUOTE=FRPLG;323975]I[B] am sort of tired of the Bush/Clinton comparisons. Everything is allways "well Bush did this" and "Clinton did that". They both suck in their own ways. I am over that. [/B] I feel like it is only a deflective thing anyways. In this case I genuinely feel Libby has gotten shafted and no one with the voice to do ti stood up and said "This is crap"[/QUOTE]

Excellent take and I completely agree.

Re: Free Scooter Libby
 

[quote=FRPLG;323956]Actually he was convicted on 4 counts, not 3. All stemming from one thing. His discussion with Russert.

The entire situation was simply bogus. To assert that politcs weren't the motivation here is absurd. Republicans didn't push this, Democrats did. If one looks at the case reasonably it really is very obvious that no one did anything illegal. Even Armitage didn't do anything illegal since Plame was not covered under the Shield laws. What sits badly with me is the millions of dollars spent persuing an investigation into a non-crime that by all appearances looks like a politcal hit job to catch someone in a "lie". Fitzgerald is a great prosecutor. It gives me shudders to think what he could pin on anyone when he can geta conviction on these types of counts when the only evidence is the testimony of one no less or more trustworthy source.

If he had really done something wrong then this conversation wouldn't even be going on. But it really seems very clear to me that he got screwed here. He took the fall for a non-crime that did not involve national security in any way. That is wrong.[/quote]

His conversation with Russert was no doubt damning, but it wasn't the one and only thing that convicted him. There were numerous testimonies. He spoke to numerous people, some in the press and some not. (see Ari Fleischer)

But to your point, this is all political. And sure the Dems played a hand in some of this, but they didn't make Libby lie and they sure as hell didn't leak V. Plames' name to the press.

Re: Free Scooter Libby
 

[quote=12thMan;323978]His conversation with Russert was no doubt damning, but it wasn't the one and only thing that convicted him. There were numerous testimonies. He spoke to numerous people, some in the press and some not. (see Ari Fleischer)

But to your point, this is all political. And sure the Dems played a hand in some of this, but they didn't make Libby lie and they sure as hell didn't leak V. Plames' name to the press.[/quote]
excellent take, and i completely agree

Re: Free Scooter Libby
 

Who's Scooter Libby?

lol
I'm a right wing, republican, gun toting, Bible believing guy and I say the guy could have just gone to prision and I would not have cared. All politics aside.

peace

Re: Free Scooter Libby
 

[quote=12thMan;323978]His conversation with Russert was no doubt damning, but it wasn't the one and only thing that convicted him. There were numerous testimonies. He spoke to numerous people, some in the press and some not. (see Ari Fleischer)

But to your point, this is all political. And sure the Dems played a hand in some of this, but they didn't make Libby lie and they sure as hell didn't leak V. Plames' name to the press.[/quote]
Libby didn't leak her name as well.

Re: Free Scooter Libby
 

[quote=firstdown;323989]Libby didn't leak her name as well.[/quote]

Well I know that, I was just saying.

Anyway, I'm done with talking about Scooter.

Re: Free Scooter Libby
 

[QUOTE=12thMan;323978]His conversation with Russert was no doubt damning, but it wasn't the one and only thing that convicted him. There were numerous testimonies. He spoke to numerous people, some in the press and some not. (see Ari Fleischer)

But to your point, this is all political. And sure the Dems played a hand in some of this, but they didn't make Libby lie and they sure as hell didn't leak V. Plames' name to the press.[/QUOTE]
Umm yes that one conversation was the only thing he got convicted on. The rest of the testimony showed no discrepancies(sp?).

And
They sure as hell did. Armitage was is a card carrying member. He was the one who leaked the name. By the time Libby had conversations with anyone about Plame it was already in the wild.

Re: Free Scooter Libby
 

can anyone in the current administration admit they were wrong?

Re: Free Scooter Libby
 

[QUOTE=dmek25;323995]can anyone in the current administration admit they were wrong?[/QUOTE]

Good question. I think it is one of their biggest problems. I know I would respect polticians, not just this administration, if they were simply more honest in their speaking. Not that they lie but a good example is John Kerry. The whole "flip flop" issue is retarded. It is one of a few main reasons he lost the election and I am pretty sure that had he just come out and said "Yeah I changed my mind. Initially I felt this way after careful deliberation. Then with new details and additonal council I have now decided that I was initially wrong." We all change our minds all the time and thinking that we don't understand that and can live with it was a major flaw. Not to just attack Kerry on that, it was just an example. Every single politician does it. They all try to couch their thoughts and actions as best as poltiically possible. It makes me think about the saying "The cover-up is always worse" Trying to conceal what you really think and do poltiically is so transparent to us. The Bush admin is made on that premise. That is their biggest problem.

Re: Free Scooter Libby
 

good point, and i agree. its not that the Bushies invented the lying, they just seem to have taken it to new heights

Re: Free Scooter Libby
 

[QUOTE=dmek25;324000]good point, and i agree. its not that the Bushies invented the lying, they just seem to have taken it to new heights[/QUOTE]

I actually don't think they take it to new heights, I just think they are not very good at it. That coupled with such transparency due to the internet and they can't win. I am pretty convinced it won't be much better under the next administration dem or rep. Times are a changing for polticians. Someday the polticians will figure it out.

Re: Free Scooter Libby
 

So who in here is voting for Ron Paul? He's the most honest and forward man running for the presidency.

Re: Free Scooter Libby
 

[quote=saden1;324013]So who in here is voting for Ron Paul? He's the most honest and forward man running for the presidency.[/quote]

Why do you say he's the most honest? I think he's a good man though.

Re: Free Scooter Libby
 

I've lost more time of my life in this thread then Libby did time in Jail.

lol

Re: Free Scooter Libby
 

[quote=12thMan;324014]Why do you say he's the most honest? I think he's a good man though.[/quote]

Because he is a constitutionalist and his voting record shows it. Because he serves in congress and practices medicine when he goes back home. Because when he speaks you don't see the usual symptoms of liar (facial expressions, nervous ticks and flat out acting). Because he wants to reduce the power of the government.

Re: Free Scooter Libby
 

[quote=saden1;324025]Because he is a constitutionalist and his voting record shows it. Because he serves in congress and practices medicine when he goes back home. Because when he speaks you don't see the usual symptoms of liar (facial expressions, nervous ticks and flat out acting). Because he wants to reduce the power of the government.[/quote]

I didn't know he practiced medicince. I did hear him in one of the debates refer to himself as "A Champion of the Constitution" ; So that explains it.There's an old saying that goes, truth tells, but stories sell. Unfortunately, we live in a culture that's more interested in hearing stories that romance us rather than facts. We like to fall in love with whom we vote for; We want to connect with our candidate on some level. That's the sad reality. Doesn't mean, though, that the others are always liars. I think that's taking things to the other extreme. But we tend to gravitate toward that which sounds good, looks good, and makes us feel good.

Re: Free Scooter Libby
 

[quote=saden1;324013]So who in here is voting for Ron Paul? He's the most honest and forward man running for the presidency.[/quote]

Not me. His rhetoric on Israel is a little too old school for me. Old meaning 1938 and school meaning Germany.

Re: Free Scooter Libby
 

[quote=70Chip;324049]Not me. His rhetoric on Israel is a little too old school for me. Old meaning 1938 and school meaning Germany.[/quote]

Funny. What did he say? I'm still laughing...

Re: Free Scooter Libby
 

This is why I like Ron Paul....Owned!

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