Re: smokers tax
 

I think true conservatives don't hate all taxes. They hate over-taxes. I have no problem paying taxes to protect our country.

Besides the difference between a "required" tax and a "selective" tax is not insiginificant to me. If I don't like the cigarette tax then I don't have to pay it. I simply don't buy cigarettes and the tax doesn't apply to me. As for income tax, well if I don't pay then everyone else gets to ante up for supporting me while I rot in jail for a little while. Big difference to me.

Re: smokers tax
 

I think the tax on cigarettes is a bad idea. It will create a HUGE blackmarket in this country (already exists and will get bigger). We must remember that most people that smoke are ADDICTED to the nicotine! I am not a smoker, but I am addicted to another form of nicotine (chewing tobacco). It is extremely difficult to stop. Call it willpower, call it whatever. Those that are addicted to nicotine, such as those addicted to other drugs will find a way to get their "fix".

Currently there are ways to not pay tax on tobacco products via the internet. I am not going to digress, but this certainly will become a much bigger marketplace should they start taxing the crap out of cigarettes.

Re: smokers tax
 

[quote=TheMalcolmConnection;337655]The one difference is that cigarettes don't sustain you (some could argue that they do ;)) [B]but fast food, as bad as it is for you, keeps you alive[/B].[/quote]

Until you die of a heart attack or diabetes?

Re: smokers tax
 

I thought cigarettes were an appetite suppresant, therefore preventing you from eating that fast food, clogging your arteries, getting a heart attack and dying.

So...cigarettes are clearly good for you ;)

Re: smokers tax
 

Maybe I am more conservative than I think, but I [I]generally[/I] do not like the idea of the federal government using its power to tax to legislate for or against certain lifestyles or freedoms. The ability to smoke or do with one's body whatever one pleases is a significant freedom. The notion that taxes should be used to promote certain lifestyles or to kick certain choices is, IMHO, a [I]fundamentally [/I]"unconservative" notion.

As for obesity, some people definately have a genetic pre-disposition to become obese. However, statistics show that over the past 40 years obesity has been skyrocketing due to personal choices (e.g., not exercising and poor diet). Rapidly increasing rates of cardiovascular disease among the general public (which is largely due to poor diet and lack of exercise) has overtaken lung cancer as the #1 killer in America and costs American taxpayers more every year than smokes. I am not for a "fat tax," but I don't really see how people can support a cigarette tax and not be for a fat tax.

Re: smokers tax
 

[quote=mredskins;337631]Hmmm...A six pack of coors Light in MD. is like $4.99. How much in PA?[/quote]

$5.99, sometimes way more.

Re: smokers tax
 

[quote=dmek25;337641]10.00 easy. maybe alittle less in some spots, maybe alittle more[/quote]

A lot of that cost is because you can't buy beer at grocery or convenience stores. At beer distributors, you can only buy by the case. So the only place to get a sixer is at bars/restaurants with liquor licenses who sell take out beer.

These places are the only places open in the state that sell beer after 10:00 pm. So they jack their prices way up because of the supply and demand balance.

So you can't compare the prices of sixers in VA and PA, it's not apples to apples. But if you compare prices of cases in PA and VA, you're talking about 10-20% more in PA.

Re: smokers tax
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;337677]I thought cigarettes were an appetite suppresant, therefore preventing you from eating that fast food, clogging your arteries, getting a heart attack and dying.

So...cigarettes are clearly good for you ;)[/QUOTE]

There was an interesting study that came out of Yale or MIT a few years ago that showed that cigarettes may actually SAVE taxpayer dollars. Crazy you say? Guess when people stop "contributing" to society, at least in terms of tax dollars? When they are old and retired. Guess when people consume tax dollars in terms of Medicare and Social Security? When they are old and retired. Guess what cigarette smoke does? Kill people prematurely. The study "proved" that smokers' premature deaths offset the costs of caring for them when they get sick from cancer.

Obviously, I don't advocate people dying young or smoking cigarettes. But, I wonder if the social utiliarians (i.e., those who advocate taxes on smokes because smokers take away tax dollars) are truly utilitarian and would support tax [I]breaks[/I] for cigarette smokers if the above study was proven correct. If the study was proven correct and the social utiliarians still believed that the federal government should tax smokes, they are really basing their support of such taxes on "I don't like your lifestyle, choices, or habits, so I'm going to tell you what to do or not to do."

Re: smokers tax
 

Soylent Green is People.

Re: smokers tax
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;337681]There was an interesting study that came out of Yale or MIT a few years ago that showed that cigarettes may actually SAVE taxpayer dollars. Crazy you say? Guess when people stop "contributing" to society, at least in terms of tax dollars? When they are old and retired. Guess when people consume tax dollars in terms of Medicare and Social Security? When they are old and retired. Guess what cigarette smoke does? Kill people prematurely. The study "proved" that smokers' premature deaths offset the costs of caring for them when they get sick from cancer.[/QUOTE]

That reminds me of the "argument" that was presented in that movie "Thank You for Smoking"

Re: smokers tax
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;337683]That reminds me of the "argument" that was presented in that movie "Thank You for Smoking"[/QUOTE]

I'll try to find a link to the study.

Re: smokers tax
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10;337629]More so here in PA. A case of beer typically costs $2-4 more than it would in VA. That's mainly attributable to tax differences.[/QUOTE]


My buddy just moved to Alabama, and he told me about the "sin tax". Alcohol and cigarettes are already more expensive then they were in Florida.
I told him to stop smoking and cut down on his drinking, he laughed at me.

Re: smokers tax
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;337681]There was an interesting study that came out of Yale or MIT a few years ago that showed that cigarettes may actually SAVE taxpayer dollars. Crazy you say? Guess when people stop "contributing" to society, at least in terms of tax dollars? When they are old and retired. Guess when people consume tax dollars in terms of Medicare and Social Security? When they are old and retired. Guess what cigarette smoke does? Kill people prematurely. The study "proved" that smokers' premature deaths offset the costs of caring for them when they get sick from cancer. [/quote]

That's a very interesting point. Although while I do think they would save money from that, the cost of those people in treatment for cancer / or other related illness would be very high.

Re: smokers tax
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;337681]There was an interesting study that came out of Yale or MIT a few years ago that showed that cigarettes may actually SAVE taxpayer dollars. Crazy you say? Guess when people stop "contributing" to society, at least in terms of tax dollars? When they are old and retired. Guess when people consume tax dollars in terms of Medicare and Social Security? When they are old and retired. Guess what cigarette smoke does? Kill people prematurely. The study "proved" that smokers' premature deaths offset the costs of caring for them when they get sick from cancer.

Obviously, I don't advocate people dying young or smoking cigarettes. But, I wonder if the social utiliarians (i.e., those who advocate taxes on smokes because smokers take away tax dollars) are truly utilitarian and would support tax [I]breaks[/I] for cigarette smokers if the above study was proven correct. If the study was proven correct and the social utiliarians still believed that the federal government should tax smokes, they are really basing their support of such taxes on "I don't like your lifestyle, choices, or habits, so I'm going to tell you what to do or not to do."[/quote]

SGG, when you think about that, and I haven't read the article, it makes some sense.

Smoke hard good chance of dying young...? On the other hand the number of long term cancer patients or related illness, with or maybe without insurance, would be very costly.

Re: smokers tax
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;337682]Soylent Green is People.[/quote]

Sage wisdom

Re: smokers tax
 

[URL="http://www.forces.org/evidence/files/crs_97-1053.htm"]Here[/URL] is one such study I referenced earlier. It was authored by a member of the Congressional Research Service.

Re: smokers tax
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;337681]"I don't like your lifestyle, choices, or habits, so I'm going to tell you what to do or not to do."[/quote]

Do you think it's that or it's the fact that MANY (if not the vast majority) of people would support banning smoking permanently and the government is just seeing this as a way to make a buck AND please the masses?

Re: smokers tax
 

[QUOTE=TheMalcolmConnection;337751]Do you think it's that or it's the fact that MANY (if not the vast majority) of people would support banning smoking permanently and the government is just seeing this as a way to make a buck AND please the masses?[/QUOTE]

I think the majority of the public would support a ban, the government wants to make a buck off of easy targets (smokers aren't too popular), AND the underlying reason why the public supports a ban is that they do not care for smokes and want to dictate how others should live their lives. I keep hearing economic justifications for taxing cigs, but I don't think the supposed tax burden of cigs is the real reason for most everyone's desire to see an end to cigs.

Re: smokers tax
 

I am a non-smoker. I am a non-drinker. I am sure I have other nons that elude me at the moment.
I would never support any such measure, as it is escalating to another freedom gone. If you do, the next time it may be something important to you.
We will live to regret the loss of our "Freedom's" in this country due to the actions of misguided zealots.
America, land of the..................used to be free, home of the brave?

Re: smokers tax
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;337753]I think the majority of the public would support a ban, the government wants to make a buck off of easy targets (smokers aren't too popular), AND the underlying reason why the public supports a ban is that they do not care for smokes [B][I]and want to dictate how others should live their lives.[/I][/B] I keep hearing economic justifications for taxing cigs, but I don't think the supposed tax burden of cigs is the real reason for most everyone's desire to see an end to cigs.[/quote]

I think this is a fundamental difference in a lot of people's thinking on a lot of issues. I think that in all things when one person's rights violates another person's that when is there is a problem. I think that as long as smoker's have a place to smoke that will never EVER let the smoke reach the lungs of someone who doesn't want it, they'll be fine and the non-smokers will be fine.

I don't think it's people wanting to dictate how other's live their lives. I'm sure most people couldn't give two craps if a perfect stranger dies from lung cancer. People are rightfully selfish when it comes to their own health and something that is proven to have a harmful effect, those people should be able to go to public places like anyone else and not have that right violated by those who smoke.

Re: smokers tax
 

[QUOTE=Hog1;337760]I am a non-smoker. I am a non-drinker. I am sure I have other nons that elude me at the moment.
I would never support any such measure, as it is escalating to another freedom gone. If you do, the next time it may be something important to you.
We will live to regret the loss of our "Freedom's" in this country due to the actions of misguided zealots.
America, land of the..................used to be free, home of the brave?[/QUOTE]


While I do agree...I only agree to an extent.
This has never been "the land of the free" cause it has always cost us to live here. (granted out of context, I know)

Re: smokers tax
 

[QUOTE=Hog1;337760]I am a non-smoker. I am a non-drinker. I am sure I have other nons that elude me at the moment.
I would never support any such measure, as it is escalating to another freedom gone. If you do, the next time it may be something important to you.
We will live to regret the loss of our "Freedom's" in this country due to the actions of misguided zealots.
America, land of the..................used to be free, home of the brave?[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure this is taking away any freedoms... you'll still be able to smoke cigs, but you'll just have to pay a premium.

I'd like to fly to the moon, but it just costs more than any of us can afford.

Re: smokers tax
 

[quote=Hog1;337760]I am a non-smoker. I am a non-drinker. I am sure I have other nons that elude me at the moment.
I would never support any such measure, as it is escalating to another freedom gone. If you do, the next time it may be something important to you.
We will live to regret the loss of our "Freedom's" in this country due to the actions of misguided zealots.
America, land of the..................used to be free, home of the brave?[/quote]

We are still the GREAT AMERICA we were yesterday and yes HOME OF THE BRAVE & LAND OF THE FREE.

But that doesn't mean you lost any freedom, your just paying more for that freedom. If land were only free....hum....? Be nice!

There has always been a price for the freedoms we have like it or not, just look at your paycheck next time thats always a big reminder.

Wanna play gotta pay, can't pay can't play. NO MATTER WHAT THE GAME.

Re: smokers tax
 

Equal treatment under the law and fairness is what this issue comes down to. The government can tax whatever the hell it wants under the constitution but that doesn't make it right to over tax cigarettes because the majority of society doesn't care for it.

As for being free and all that, I'd like a definition of what it means to be free.

Re: smokers tax
 

Increasing taxes on cigarettes certainly can cause a decrease in the number of smokers.

[url=http://www.cancer.org/docroot/NWS/content/NWS_1_1x_NYC_Mayor_Signs_Law_Upping_Cost_Of_Cigarettes.asp]ACS :: NYC Mayor Signs Law Upping Cost Of Cigarettes[/url]

[quote]Studies have shown that when the price of cigarettes increases, the number of youth who smoke decreases. One study the mayor cited said a 22% tax increase would reduce smoking among youth by 15%. That would mean roughly 70,000 less smokers, which will prevent more than 20,000 additional premature deaths, he said.[/quote]

[url=http://www1.worldbank.org/tobacco/faq.asp]Economics of Tobacco - About this site[/url]

[quote]Myth 5: Tobacco addiction is so strong that simply raising taxes will not reduce demand; therefore, raising taxes is not justified

Reality: Scores of studies have shown that increased taxes reduce the number of smokers and the number of smoking-related deaths. Price increases induce some smokers to quit and prevent others from becoming regular or persistent smokers. They also reduce the number of ex-smokers returning to cigarettes and reduce consumption among continuing smokers. Children and adolescents are more responsive to changes in the price of consumer goods than adults-that is, if the price goes up, they are more likely to reduce their consumption. This intervention would therefore have a big impact on them. Similarly, people on low incomes are more price-responsive than those on high -incomes, so there is likely to be a bigger impact in developing countries where tobacco consumption is still increasing. Models developed for this report show that tax increases that would raise the real price of cigarettes by 10 percent worldwide would cause 40 million smokers alive in 1995 to quit and prevent a minimum of 10 million tobacco-related deaths.[/quote]

I say tax the shit out of cigarettes.

Re: smokers tax
 

My defintion of freedom:

-Going wherever I choose in this country without a government officials approval or requiring me to show them papers.
-Having the choice to purchase anything I want using multiple forms of payment (credit, check, atm card, cash, pennies, barter, etc).
-Buying land or personal property.
-Choosing the profession that I want provided I show I have the acumen or neceassary skill set.
-Voting for a public servant that I feel represents my values and societal expectations.
-Bitching about the government on an internet discussion forum and not being arrested for it.

I do feel the cigarette smokers have been picked on in recent years as far as excessive taxation goes. I wish everyone would stop buying them but that's just me having a hard time understanding people with chemical dependency.

Re: smokers tax
 

[QUOTE=TheMalcolmConnection;337768]I think this is a fundamental difference in a lot of people's thinking on a lot of issues. I think that in all things when one person's rights violates another person's that when is there is a problem. I think that as long as smoker's have a place to smoke that will never EVER let the smoke reach the lungs of someone who doesn't want it, they'll be fine and the non-smokers will be fine.

I don't think it's people wanting to dictate how other's live their lives. I'm sure most people couldn't give two craps if a perfect stranger dies from lung cancer. People are rightfully selfish when it comes to their own health and something that is proven to have a harmful effect, those people should be able to go to public places like anyone else and not have that right violated by those who smoke.[/QUOTE]

I can certainly understand the second-hand smoke argument. That said, if the cigarette tax is designed to bring an end to second-hand smoke, it is a relatively blunt and ineffective tool. It is blunt because there are better, more direct ways to eliminate the risk of second-hand smoke causing ill health effects without affecting someone's right to smoke a cigarette without affecting someone else. It is relatively ineffective because it is not going to stop dedicated smokers from smoking cigs in the presence of others.

I still have yet to hear an articulate and persuasive argument as to why cigarettes should be banned or heavily taxed if cigarettes do not create a net increase in tax burdens. If it is because they kill, should we still criminalize attempted suicide? I believe that if someone is dumb enough to intentionally kill themselves by smoking and that form of prolonged suicide does not create a net increase in tax burdens, they should be able to do so.

Re: smokers tax
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;337802]Increasing taxes on cigarettes certainly can cause a decrease in the number of smokers.

[url=http://www.cancer.org/docroot/NWS/content/NWS_1_1x_NYC_Mayor_Signs_Law_Upping_Cost_Of_Cigarettes.asp]ACS :: NYC Mayor Signs Law Upping Cost Of Cigarettes[/url]



[url=http://www1.worldbank.org/tobacco/faq.asp]Economics of Tobacco - About this site[/url]



I say tax the shit out of cigarettes.[/QUOTE]


So you could make the argument, that taxing cigarettes save lives! Sweet.
I agree...tax the shit out of them.

Re: smokers tax
 

[quote=Mattyk72;337802]Increasing taxes on cigarettes certainly can cause a decrease in the number of smokers.

[URL="http://www.cancer.org/docroot/NWS/content/NWS_1_1x_NYC_Mayor_Signs_Law_Upping_Cost_Of_Cigarettes.asp"]ACS :: NYC Mayor Signs Law Upping Cost Of Cigarettes[/URL]



[URL="http://www1.worldbank.org/tobacco/faq.asp"]Economics of Tobacco - About this site[/URL]



I say tax the shit out of cigarettes.[/quote]Whith that logic I guess you would not have a problem with a $3.00 gas tax making gas aroung $6.00 a gallon.

Re: smokers tax
 

[quote=firstdown;338051]Whith that logic I guess you would not have a problem with a $3.00 gas tax making gas aroung $6.00 a gallon.[/quote]

What does gas have to do with cigarettes?

Re: smokers tax
 

here we go again

Re: smokers tax
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;338077]What does gas have to do with cigarettes?[/QUOTE]

I think he was trying to say that, if taxes can help kick a bad habit, we should tax the hell out of gas. After all, gas is the cause of wars, global warming, and the second-hand inhalation of toxic fumes.

I think gas is in a different category than cigarettes because our economy runs on it, but I see his point.

Re: smokers tax
 

[quote=Mattyk72;338077]What does gas have to do with cigarettes?[/quote]

increasing taxes on gas will reduce the number of cars on the street. This will lead to less pollution and thus reduce respiratory problems?

Re: smokers tax
 

[quote=saden1;338111]increasing taxes on gas will reduce the number of cars on the street. This will lead to less pollution and thus reduce respiratory problems?[/quote]

The connection between the two is still a bit of a stretch. Nobody [U]needs[/U] cigarettes, if you tax the shit out of them it's not going to negatively impact the economy, where if you double the price of gas it will definitely hurt the economy.

Sure, reducing the number of cars on the road will positively impact the environment, but it's not realistic. Alternative fuels and increasing fuel efficiency is the most realistic solution.

As for smokers, F 'em. If they're dumb enough to dig themselves an early grave then I have no pity for them no matter how high the prices of cigarettes go.

Re: smokers tax
 

[quote=Mattyk72;338116]The connection between the two is still a bit of a stretch. Nobody [U]needs[/U] cigarettes, if you tax the shit out of them it's not going to negatively impact the economy, where if you double the price of gas it will definitely hurt the economy.

[B][I] Sure, reducing the number of cars on the road will positively impact the environment, but it's not realistic. Alternative fuels and increasing fuel efficiency is the most realistic solution.
[/I][/B]
As for smokers, F 'em. If they're dumb enough to dig themselves an early grave then I have no pity for them no matter how high the prices of cigarettes go.[/quote]

While I totally agree with you, just to play devil's advocate, would you accept higher taxes on gas to fund research for alternative fuel sources?

Re: smokers tax
 

[quote=Mattyk72;338116]The connection between the two is still a bit of a stretch. Nobody [U]needs[/U] cigarettes, if you tax the shit out of them it's not going to negatively impact the economy, where if you double the price of gas it will definitely hurt the economy.

Sure, reducing the number of cars on the road will positively impact the environment, but it's not realistic. Alternative fuels and increasing fuel efficiency is the most realistic solution.

As for smokers, F 'em. If they're dumb enough to dig themselves an early grave then I have no pity for them no matter how high the prices of cigarettes go.[/quote]

My problem with over taxing cigs is from the principled view point. Every time someone in the state legislators wants to raise funds taxing cigs is in the forefront instead improving the overall tax code. I'd like to see how people would really react if the tax rate of alcohol was synchronized with that of cigs.


I remember a while ago we had a lot of people complaining about the increase auto offenses in VA. It's not tax but you can bet your ass the intent of the increase is to fleece people.

Re: smokers tax
 

[quote=saden1;338120]My problem with over taxing cigs is from the principled view point. Every time someone in the state legislators wants to raise funds taxing cigs is in the forefront instead improving the overall tax code. [B][I]I'd like to see how people would really react if the tax rate of alcohol was synchronized with that of cigs. [/I][/B]


I remember a while ago we had a lot of people complaining about the increase auto offenses in VA. It's not tax but you can bet your ass the intent of the increase is to fleece people.[/quote]

Being a drinker, but non-smoker, I would welcome it. Sometimes I need saving from myself. ;)

Honestly, I can't see there being as big of an uproar from drinkers as smokers. Sure, you CAN be addicted to alcohol, but much less people are addicted to where they NEED it much like smokers and cigarettes.

Re: smokers tax
 

[quote=TheMalcolmConnection;338118]While I totally agree with you, just to play devil's advocate, would you accept higher taxes on gas to fund research for alternative fuel sources?[/quote]

No, only because the auto industry has the necessary funds and the ability to already have much more fuel efficient cars on the road and they've been dragging their feet for years.

Re: smokers tax
 

I'm in favor of any sort of "sin tax". Crank up the taxes on everything from booze to cigarettes to gambling. Hell, legalize pot and tax the shit outta that too.

Re: smokers tax
 

[quote=Mattyk72;338077]What does gas have to do with cigarettes?[/quote]
You have said in earlier threads that you believe global warm is real and we need to do something about it. If you think a high tax will curb people from smoking then we must assume that a high tax on gas will curb consumption. If global warming is that big of a consern then it would make sense to have the higher tax to save the planet v/s taxing cigs which would only save smokers.

The other reason I made that point is because people don't have problems with others paying high taxes but when it effects them then they have a problem with the tax and from your past post you made my point.