Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

BleedBurgundy, most coaches get three years in this league. In the 2nd year Gibbs went to the playoffs, in the 3rd, he regressed, and the 4th is still up in the air.

As far as changes, never stop. Don't try to run out the game in the 3rd quarter. Moving the chains burns more clock than anything else, and every point on the board matters. I just think we need to really improve our scoring offense if we want to win games in this day and age. Teams are airing it out and putting up gaudy numbers because todays game supports the passing game.

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

Just an FYI,
When we won in 91 (14-2), our passing offense was ranked 5th in yards, and 1st in points. The rushing O was ranked 7th.
When we won in 87 (11-4), our passing offense was ranked 5th in yards, and 5th in points. The Rushing O was ranked 7th.
When we lost in the NFC championship game in 86 (12-4), our passing offense was ranked 6th in yards, and 9th in points. The rushing O ranked 17th.

That being said, in the past 3 years (not including this year) we have had the 29th (04), 22nd (05), 23rd (06), ranked passing offense and have had only 1 winning season in those 3 years. This year we have the 22nd best passing O.
Last year we had the 4th best rushing O in the league and still only managed 5 wins. Granted there are other factors, but we were 20th in points scored. That says a lot.
Gibbs knows how to win with a passing offense, and maybe it's lack of faith, maybe it's the fact that he wants to play the TOP game...I don't know. But I do know, we need a top ten passing attack to win in this day and age unless we have a top 3 defense (which we don't).

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

[QUOTE=NYCSkin;357708]I don't doubt the fact that Gibbs' football can win in this league. Smootsmack has elegantly outlined several teams that have used Gibbs' blueprints to achieve victory. However, I do worry that Gibbs himself cannot follow his own blueprints as effectively as other teams now do...[/QUOTE]

I disagree with that. He is a master mind...that I have no doubt. You do need personel to pull things off though. Last I checked, Joe Jacoby isn't walking through that door to help out on this banged up O line. This is one of the reasons I feel it's time to adjust and pass more. Portis is mega talented, but even he needs blocking.
I hope that Gibbs is looking at the play calling and saying to himself "Joe, that line of play calling not only didn't work, it cost us the game, we need to try something else." We are way too talented to have THAT many 3 and out's vs an inferior defense.

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

Look--we all agree his team needs to score more points on a consistent basis. But I don't think it's so black and white that they went all conservative in the playcalling in the second half. JLac was complaining about the LACK of rushes in that same half. Check out the numbers. And when JC misses a pass or dumps to the short receiver, maybe that was on an aggressive play that wasn't executed.

And in general what Gibbs aims for is balance. It's not run for the sake of run. It's run to set up the pass, preferably a long shot. Are people saying that this basic strategy does not work?

Finally, there is the issue of just who's playcalling were arguing about. Gibbs brought in Saunders. Now many people are worried that Gibbs isn't "letting" Saunders call the sort of game he wants to. What evidence do we have for that? Neither Gibbs nor Saunders have said this. What we have is the low score. But there's another variable here--the players. Maybe both JG and Saunders are aggressive, but the players are not getting it done.

The real answer is most likely that it's a combination of all of this. My guess is that when JG/JC are more comfortable, and when the Oline stabalizes, and when a legit #3 WR emerges, we'll be plenty aggressive. And when we are aggressive, it will ACTUALLY WORK. They called the perfect dagger-in-the-heart bomb against Philly, it was wide open, and the kid, bless his heart, overthrew it. That was an aggressive play call right in the Rypien to Clark mold there, and we missed it.

(Again, way too long--sorry!)

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

I'm in favor of a balanced attack, be it run first or pass first really dosen't matter. In order to be successful on a sustained basis the offense must be balanced, a staple Gibbs will live and die by. Now, if that does not work, so be it, but I don't think you'll see Gibbs having his young QB throwing the ball 35-40 times a game espically when he has runners like Portis and Betts. Gibbs philosophy of offense reqires a strong defense, not one that just gives up points like water. He likes to shorten the games, and make the opposition earn everything they get. However his offense must improve in order for his defense to operate at a quality level for four quarters.

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

Maybe I'm not saying this clearly. If, [B]IF[/B], the players [B]execute[/B] the gameplan well, we win. We had the lead at the end of the first half. The detractors say that Gibbs is too conservative, so... if the players [B]execute[/B] this conservative offense and chew up yardage and clock, we win. Ask anyone that's actually on the team, I'll bet you hear the same thing.

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

And 17 points in a half isn't too bad for a conservative offense? Our guys just didn't match intensity and focus in the 2nd half. If we keep changing everything every 3-4 years we're not going to get anywhere. That said, I'd like to point out that I enjoy your posts Daseal, because you actually put something behind them. I don't agree with them, but at least they show that you've put thought into them. I wish everyone did.

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

Football isn't any different now than what it was 20 years ago. Aside from a couple of rule changes, the majority of the game is the same as it was years ago.

I keep hearing that today's game does this and does that. Show me how the game in the 80's didn't support the passing game? That's stupid! Go to you tube and watch some vintage videos of Gary Clark. Our team (and other great teams from that era) put up just as many points as teams are doing today.

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

the simple answer that i've been hearing/reading is:
1) our losing record since he's been back.
2) our inability to score points (our lack of production for a generally talented Offense.
3) our inability to manage the clock.
4) mark brunell, pierce, smoot (round 1), champ bailey, ryan clark, walt harris, etc. (more specifcally- player management-whether its williams or saunders, still gibbs call.
5) perceived(?) conservatism when we have a lead.


This is what i consistently hear...i agree with some, and disagree with others...overall gibbs has not "lost it" i just think perhaps he needs to take more control, or completely cede authority...too many chiefs (IMO).

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

[QUOTE=skinsguy;357724][b]Football isn't any different now than what it was 20 years ago. Aside from a couple of rule changes, the majority of the game is the same as it was years ago. [/b]

I keep hearing that today's game does this and does that. Show me how the game in the 80's didn't support the passing game? That's stupid! Go to you tube and watch some vintage videos of Gary Clark. Our team (and other great teams from that era) put up just as many points as teams are doing today.[/QUOTE]

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree.
In 1986,
There were only 8 players that had 1000 or more rushing yards. 23 in 2006. (that's 15 more)
There were only 10 people that had 1000 or more receiving yards. 19 in 2006. (that's 9 more)
There was only 1 player that had 2000 or more yards from scrimmage. 5 in 2006. (that's 4 more)
There were only 16 that had 2500 or more passing yards. 21 in 2006. (that's 5 more)
There were only 2 that had 4000 or more passing yards. 5 in 2006. (that's 3 more)
There were only 7 that had 80 or more receptions. 18 in 2006. (that's 11 more)
There were only 13 that had 70 or more receptions. 27 in 2006. (that's 14 more)
There were only 28 that had 60 or more receptions. 44 in 2006. (that's 16 more)
There were only 19 players that averaged 6 or more points per game. 37 in 2006. (that's 18 more)

Those numbers speak for themselves. Every era is different, and usually the more we progress the better the players get. We have more prolific players and offenses today.

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;357763]I'm going to have to respectfully disagree.
In 1986,
There were only 8 players that had 1000 or more rushing yards. 23 in 2006. (that's 15 more)
There were only 10 people that had 1000 or more receiving yards. 19 in 2006. (that's 9 more)
There was only 1 player that had 2000 or more yards from scrimmage. 5 in 2006. (that's 4 more)
There were only 16 that had 2500 or more passing yards. 21 in 2006. (that's 5 more)
There were only 2 that had 4000 or more passing yards. 5 in 2006. (that's 3 more)
There were only 7 that had 80 or more receptions. 18 in 2006. (that's 11 more)
There were only 13 that had 70 or more receptions. 27 in 2006. (that's 14 more)
There were only 28 that had 60 or more receptions. 44 in 2006. (that's 16 more)
There were only 19 players that averaged 6 or more points per game. 37 in 2006. (that's 18 more)

Those numbers speak for themselves. Every era is different, and usually the more we progress the better the players get. We have more prolific players and offenses today.[/QUOTE]

Interesting numbers. I'm assuming you factored in the addition of three franchises-Texans, Panthers, and Jaguars

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

In terms of teams, in 1986,
There were only 20 teams that had 300 or more yards offense. 27 in 2006. (that's 7 more)
There were only 18 teams that averaged 175 or more yards passing a game. 26 in 2006. (that's 8 more)
There were only 3 teams that scored 25 or more ppg. 6 in 2006. (that's 3 more)
There were 1 teams that scored 26 or more ppg. 4 in 2006. (that's 3 more)


Now look at the similarities in rushing offense:
There was 1 team that averaged more than 160 per game. 2 in 2006. (that's only 1 more)
There were 4 teams that averaged more than 150 per game. 3 in 2006. (that's 1 fewer)
There were 9 teams that averaged more than 125 per game. 9 in 2006. (exact same)
There were 19 teams that averaged more than 105 per game. 21 in 2006. (that's only 2 more)

It's clear we are in a more pass happy day and age.

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;357764]Interesting numbers. I'm assuming you factored in the addition of three franchises-Texans, Panthers, and Jaguars[/QUOTE]

Actually it's 4 teams. You forgot the Ravens. (or the Browns depending on your point of view)
And those were individual acheivements, so the 4 extra teams out of 32 teams would not make THAT big of an impact.

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;357622]Well here's a question for you then (and everyone else) is it better to play to your own strengths, or against the opponents' weakness?

Case in point for this past weekend, our strengths so far this season have been our running game and our defense. For all of Campbell's potential and the flashes we've seen, the passing offense isn't necessarily a strength at the moment.

On the other hand, the Giants' weakness most would agree is their pass defense.

So what's the right strategy? My feeling is you do what you do best and make the other team stop you at what you do best. It's like jsarno said in a fantasy football thread (to paraphrase) "If you're going to lose, lose with your best."

What sayeth thou?[/quote]Sorry it took so long to respond.

I think it would be better to be able to adapt to who you are playing then to become so predictable that the defense knows whats coming all the time. Going into the game, the Giants were only giving up 3.8 ypc(I think). WHen the Skins were getting stuffed on the ground They should have been prepared with a plan B. They weren't, the Giants knew what was coming, and had no problem stopping it.

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

I wish that we would just develop a "score as many offensive points as possible as quickly as possible and never let up" attitude. Hell, a 21 point lead in the NFL isn't anything in today's NFL when it comes down to the last 2 minuites of the game. I would like to see them ditch the whole clock control theory and put some points on the board rapidly through 3 quarters. Play clock control in the 4th if you have a 28+ point lead. Force them to throw more often so that the D can pin their ears back and get sacks and intercecptions. Joe Gibbs does not have the killer instinct to just destroy opposing teams, that is the part of the game that he is lacking.

Look at the teams that are winning right now. Indy, Dallas, NE, and GB. They keep putting up points and do not let up until they completely devastate you. They make you shoot yourself in the foot by trying to play catch up against their solid defenses. That is the type of attitude and type of strategy that Gibbs is lacking. Gibbs was great in the 80's but the league is no longer a conservative one.

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

[QUOTE=angryssg;357771]Hell, a 21 point lead in the NFL isn't anything in today's NFL when it comes down to the last 2 minuites of the game. [/QUOTE]


It is if you can play defense. Which I guess is a big part of this whole thing.

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

[quote=jsarno;357765]It's clear we are in a more pass happy day and age.[/quote]

Using a different perspective:

In 1986 the top 10 Passing leaders threw for a combined 37740 yards.
In 2006, the top 10 passing Leaders threw for a combined 39026 yards.

The difference being a total of 1286 yards or,
128.6 yards per QB per season or,
8.0375 yards per QB per game.

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;357765]In terms of teams, in 1986,
There were only 20 teams that had 300 or more yards offense. 27 in 2006. (that's 7 more)
There were only 18 teams that averaged 175 or more yards passing a game. 26 in 2006. (that's 8 more)
There were only 3 teams that scored 25 or more ppg. 6 in 2006. (that's 3 more)
There were 1 teams that scored 26 or more ppg. 4 in 2006. (that's 3 more)


Now look at the similarities in rushing offense:
There was 1 team that averaged more than 160 per game. 2 in 2006. (that's only 1 more)
There were 4 teams that averaged more than 150 per game. 3 in 2006. (that's 1 fewer)
There were 9 teams that averaged more than 125 per game. 9 in 2006. (exact same)
There were 19 teams that averaged more than 105 per game. 21 in 2006. (that's only 2 more)

It's clear we are in a more pass happy day and age.[/QUOTE]

You also have to consider the shift of teams around the league. Teams switching conferences or divisions will play a role in that as well. And certainly, the addition of NFL teams will increase those numbers as well. And really, in those comparisons, they don't really show a huge, drastic, increase between 1986 and 2006. In 20 years, you're talking about a matter of a few teams. Not enough of a difference to say we're clearly more pass happy in this day and age. Now if those differences were double digit in every category, then I'd say we're clearly a different NFL from 20 years ago, but according to this, I don't see where this will prove we're more of a pass happy league. And.... what still rings true is that teams who win the Super Bowl, have relied on their running game and defense.

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;357766]Actually it's 4 teams. You forgot the Ravens. (or the Browns depending on your point of view)
And those were individual acheivements, so the 4 extra teams out of 32 teams would not make THAT big of an impact.[/QUOTE]

True, it's not that big an impact. But still more teams means more players means a larger sample size means it does impact the numbers somewhat

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

I think the philosophy has changes from 20 years ago for most of these new coaches. The coaches from earlier years (except Vermeil) all have the same approach. get a lead and eat clock. the newer coaches run the offense no matter what the score is. I heard a former football player say this the other day who was talking about our game with the Giants (the radio show is in charlotte NC) he said if they were up at half by 14 or 21 or what ever the coach would say, do not let up, we'll run our offense until the game is out of reach. If they were up 14 the coach would say, look guys 14 points, thats two plays.
I like that mentality. 14 points is really only two plays, any two plays. so their coach would run their offense until the end of the game, or when there was absolutely no chance of them coming back. Hopefully this will open the coaches and everyone else's eyes they need to let the offense run. seemed like we just paniced in the 4th quarter.

it is very early in the season. we have a long way to go. I will hate to see whats out here if we ever lose multiple games. this is crazy how we all react after 1 loss insn't it?

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

the thing that stands out to me is during the 80,s to early 90,s joe gibbs was able to get the players personnel with a general manager and an owner who understands the buisness aspect of the nfl. then joe gibbs was able to just put the players in the right positions for 10-15 years.in todays economics of the nfl with the salary cap he is unable to go out and get the necessary players he needs for the long term without any restructuring of their deals being made. it pains me to see other teams using joe gibbs system with the exact same players joe had back then but it also makes me feel good at the sametime,so in short it still works in todays nfl.now i,m going to say that this organization has been a part of my life since birth and i aint gonna change now but what needs to be changed is the people in the front office starting with a general manager who understands todays nfl and acquire players so the coach can put them in the proper positions but again we have some solid players now but they aren,t utilizing them the way they should but i think they need to open it up more often cause these teams today don,t care what you used to do it,s what you can do in todays nfl and joe hasn,t done too much other than what he,s done in 2005..your right the past doesn,t buy us anything but good memories and i,m getting tired of falling back on good memories but this team is improving and thats great to see and they need to keep their feet fimly planted on the other teams throats when given the chance but being 2-1 is a good start to a season that has quite a few teams on the schedule that don,t play around they just get it done plain and simple.. i,m a true joe gibbs beleiver but i beleive someone needs to grab a firm hold on what playbook to use..catching a few balls wouldn,t hurt either.JC is only going to get better but with AS playbook or a joe gibbs,s playbook that remains to be seen but it,s time to open it up a little more against these teams of today...i,m with most of you all we are 2-1 right now with the season still in front of us so no panic here at all.it,s all about being leaders and taking a leadership role so who wants to step up and be a leader of this team and organization i,m ready as a fan so are you ready as a team and organization to do the same..joe gibbs 2.0 doesn,t compare to joe gibbs 1.0 so something tells me we need an upgrade from joe gibbs 2.0 so where,s the recovery disc somebodys holding it so they can,t run what they need to run as of yet...

great post smootsmack....

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

The problem for me isn't that the system "won't" work, it's more that it's not. As far as why it isn't, I have a lot of opinions, I won't get into all of them in this post, but I think that much of the struggles in the past years have been a function of the quarterback. I don't know that I blame Gibbs for the offense not stretching the field before because that was certainly part of the gameplan the first time around. It would be a relatively run focused gameplan and then they would stretch the field. That's what I see this team evolving into. I think if Gibbs stays next season, this team could be amazing.

However, I think my main issue with a lot of the playcalling is that there were so many short passes. As I stated previously, I believe that was largely a function of the QB not throwing the ball down the field. Were they calling different plays with Brunell in then they are with Campbell? Possibly, I'm not sure. However, I think that for a run first team to be successful, the threat of the deep ball needs to be there. My main complaint from Sunday wasn't so much that the playcalling, as far as pass - run ratio was wrong, it was more th passes they were calling. I didn't like seeing so many play action passes when the G Men were getting some pretty good pressure on Jason, I'd rather him be able to come away from center looking downfield.

Sunday aside, however, I think that a lot of people look at teams like the Colts, Patriots, and last year's Saints (and this year's Cowboys) and see that a team who is predominately a throwing team, winning games they want that because it's "sexier." I agree with that notion, but most of those teams have good balance. I think that was the problem with Gibbs 2.0 under Brunell, while there was a decent pass - run balance, the pass was never that much of a threat because it wasn't downfield, so it didn't back anyone off. Because of that, the run was less effective. With a qb who can stretch the field when teams put 8 in the box, the gameplan can be successful, it just needs to be well executed.

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

I think the major problem is that the really successful offenses of the nfl in the last 10 years are teams that can spread the field and exucte quick plays and shay away from the power game. For instance the colts have been masterminds of spreading defenses out and putting up huge numbers. They attack vertically, and can dink and dunk all the way down the field. They rarely use a fullback and most of the runs are in multiple reciever sets. If you even look at Clinton Portis in Denver...he was utilized as a one cut back relying on speed in multiple reciever formations. If you look at the best offenses of the last ten years they all have one thing in common, spreading the field. The Vikings did this with Randy Moss/Chris Carter in the late 90's. The Rams did it with Tory Holt, Issac Bruce and Marshall Faulk at the beginning of 2000. The Colts and Patriots have been doing it for years. Luckily our defense has been good enough to keep us close in many games. But it hasnt been as good as teams like the Ravens or Steelers who can win games on their own.The main problem is that we have not been able to put up enough points to win games. The power run game will keep us close in most cases but usually will not lead to a winning record...just look at our recent win/loss record. I think we have plenty of players that can stretch the field, Moss, Randle El, Cooley, Portis, even Betts. I would like to see more single back sets and more quick hitting run plays because scoring 18 points a game will not lead to many victories.

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

[QUOTE=angryssg;357771]Look at the teams that are winning right now. Indy, Dallas, NE, and GB. They keep putting up points and do not let up until they completely devastate you. They make you shoot yourself in the foot by trying to play catch up against their solid defenses. That is the type of attitude and type of strategy that Gibbs is lacking. Gibbs was great in the 80's but the league is no longer a conservative one.[/QUOTE]

Indy, NE, and GB all have HoF quarterbacks. Dallas is an exception, but when you have a rookie QB, and are leading by multiple scores, common wisdom is to run clock. Otherwise, you might end up committing turnovers and giving the other team a chance to win. Imagine if we came out passing in the 2nd half, and JC threw a pick for TD. Whoops, now our lead is only 1 TD. What's better -- going 3 and out, or that?

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

[QUOTE=GhettoDogAllStars;357836]Indy, NE, and GB all have HoF quarterbacks. Dallas is an exception, but when you have a rookie QB, and are leading by multiple scores, common wisdom is to run clock. Otherwise, you might end up committing turnovers and giving the other team a chance to win. Imagine if we came out passing in the 2nd half, and JC threw a pick for TD. Whoops, now our lead is only 1 TD. What's better -- going 3 and out, or that?[/QUOTE]

Why assume he would throw a pick 6?
I said it once, and I'll say it again, even IF he did (and that's a MONSTER if), then we would chaulk it up to QB inexperience. I'd rather lose that way, then by a bunch of experienced coaches making poor calls.
Take the handcuffs off the offense. Campbell is the best QB we've seen in at least decade, maybe since Joey T.

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

Maybe the game has changed alot since...the 80's.
Other teams have adjusted and now and then a team will get caught in a "WEAR THEM DOWN.".. Gibbs style football game....I think first you need true "HOGS" up front, so the run can setup the pass.
So,far the offensive line have been adverage at best with lots of injuries early. One thing is for sure never count a Gibb's coached team out.

Wow..I've just drank the kool aid and lived!

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

Gibbs football is still about pounding the ground, and pulling offensive linemen. The addition to Gibbs football since the 80's has been the horrendous clock control.

Im sure this has been re-hashed a billion times. But we are successfull running our plays 10.5 quarters out of 12 this year. We move down the field methodically with the occasional deep ball.

If we're playing for close games as Gibbs says Redskins football is, then he needs to take a remedial course in clock management. And to the local sports radio "allstars" that think we need to hire someone to assist in that portion of the game, I say get real. If a coach cant handle the two minute drill, then how can you expect your inexperienced QB to handle it? And furthermore, what are you being paid for?

I don't sleep better at night because Joe is our coach again, I sleep better at night when we win. And [I]he[/I] doesnt look like an ass.

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

[quote=jsarno;357763]I'm going to have to respectfully disagree.
In 1986,
There were only 8 players that had 1000 or more rushing yards. 23 in 2006. (that's 15 more)
There were only 10 people that had 1000 or more receiving yards. 19 in 2006. (that's 9 more)
There was only 1 player that had 2000 or more yards from scrimmage. 5 in 2006. (that's 4 more)
There were only 16 that had 2500 or more passing yards. 21 in 2006. (that's 5 more)
There were only 2 that had 4000 or more passing yards. 5 in 2006. (that's 3 more)
There were only 7 that had 80 or more receptions. 18 in 2006. (that's 11 more)
There were only 13 that had 70 or more receptions. 27 in 2006. (that's 14 more)
There were only 28 that had 60 or more receptions. 44 in 2006. (that's 16 more)
There were only 19 players that averaged 6 or more points per game. 37 in 2006. (that's 18 more)

Those numbers speak for themselves. Every era is different, and usually the more we progress the better the players get. We have more prolific players and offenses today.[/quote]The mid 80s seem to lie as a dead ball era in history. Defenses totally dominated offenses most of the time. Obviously, thats not true anymore, but the strategies and nuiances are ever so similar (statistically at least, not necessarily anecdoteally).

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

To me, Gibbs football is doing whatever works best. It's not running the ball into 9 man fronts. It's not throwing the ball in 3rd and 1 situations more than you run it.

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

I don't think anyone cares if we run the ball 40 times a game, as long as we are effective. Something that didn't happen for the 3rd and 4th quarter. We better change our approach before the Lions game or we'll find ourselves in a hole VERY fast!

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

Joe Gibbs is not God or Chuck Norris ...but he is still Redskins Football.

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

winning SB with different QB's signifies that Joe Gibbs football will work

hail to the skins

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

[QUOTE=bertoskins2;358012]winning SB with different QB's signifies that Joe Gibbs football will work

hail to the skins[/QUOTE]

I don't think Gibbs football will work too much better than it has in the last couple of seasons. The game has changed, this isn't the 80s. Defenses usually consist of much better atheletes than the offenses do. Therefore they are quicker to the gap and harder hitting. We really do need to adjust our gameplan a little bit, we still haven't put up over 20 points this year, and if we can't we do it on the Giants, then that's an issue.

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

[QUOTE=Cowell;358014]I don't think Gibbs football will work too much better than it has in the last couple of seasons. The game has changed, this isn't the 80s. Defenses usually consist of much better atheletes than the offenses do. Therefore they are quicker to the gap and harder hitting. We really do need to adjust our gameplan a little bit, we still haven't put up over 20 points this year, and if we can't we do it on the Giants, then that's an issue.[/QUOTE]

Exactly how has the game changed? I keep hearing this, but I haven't seen any evidence of it on the field. The teams are still running and passing the ball and having to kick field goals and score touchdowns to score points.

Are you trying to tell me that the defensive players of today hit harder than someone like Lawrence Taylor or Ronnie Lott did in the 80's? Believe me, if the game has changed that much, it isn't because of the defense, but because of the ticky tack rules that the NFL has placed on defenders nowadays. Go back and watch the last Super Bowl the Redskins were in. They threw Jim Kelly and his receivers around all day. Over half of that stuff would be called for personal fouls penalties in today's game.

It all comes back to execution. Joe Gibbs football works and will always work. You just need the right players and the right team chemistry to make it work.

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

JG's football is scoring points, being physical, and winning. So far in JG's 2 it hasn't been so much of that. So far...

Today's football you are only go to go as far as your QB takes you. Let's face it we haven't had a talented Qb here for a long time. Don't get me wrong i like JC but i can't be sure he is long time starter material. I thought Ramsey was starter material for a long time. He could make some great throws that would make you think this guy is talented. But he's didn't have the intangibles. QB's makes coaches geniuses, generally. Right now we need JC to keep improving and show us he has intangibles.

Now we could get into personel and who started a below average QB for 2 years...

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

I don't think that Gibbs has changed that much, or that the game of football has changed much since 1992. But the Redskins as an organization have changed a lot.

Now, I love Gibbs and think he belongs in the HoF. But he's inherited a very different team now than he did in 1981. Although the 81 Skins had gone through three so-so seasons under Jack Pardee, they were still not far removed from the George Allen era, and many of the players had carried over from the 70s. There was still that sense of team and organizational pride, the rivalries still meant something (remember Theismann hot-dogging in the end zone against the Cowboys at the end of that MNF game that ended 9-5 in 1978? That was under Pardee!)

The Skins that Gibbs got in 2004 were a very different team. A culture of losing has become entrenched with this club. While the players we have today definitely have a strong sense of individual pride, I don't get any feeling of pride in the team or the Redskins organization. Some of that has to do with free agency, a lot with the difference between Jack Kent Cooke and Snyder, but most most with the culture of losing that's been around since Petibon's terrible '93 season.

I'm not sure how much Gibbs will be able to change that. His players now definitely don't respect him ten percent of what they did in 1983 or 1991. I think Snyder's finally getting the clue, though, that one thing this team desperately needs is continuity. Sadly, though, I think the Skins are a lot like the Cardinals now. Pretty much whoever you put in there is gonna lose.

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

[QUOTE=skinsguy;358020]Exactly how has the game changed? I keep hearing this, but I haven't seen any evidence of it on the field. The teams are still running and passing the ball and having to kick field goals and score touchdowns to score points.

Are you trying to tell me that the defensive players of today hit harder than someone like Lawrence Taylor or Ronnie Lott did in the 80's? Believe me, if the game has changed that much, it isn't because of the defense, but because of the ticky tack rules that the NFL has placed on defenders nowadays. Go back and watch the last Super Bowl the Redskins were in. They threw Jim Kelly and his receivers around all day. Over half of that stuff would be called for personal fouls penalties in today's game.

It all comes back to execution. Joe Gibbs football works and will always work. You just need the right players and the right team chemistry to make it work.[/QUOTE]

The game has changed dramatically over the past 10-15 yrs.. For example:
-Rule changes have made the game siginificantly tilted to the passing game.. The illegal contact rule, the emphasis on roughing the passer tends to protect QBs more, defensive holding is called much more than ever before..
-Exotic defenses change the way offense is called.. You'd hardly ever see 8 in the box before the past 15 years.. The 3-4 wasn't around, you would NEVER see some of the defensive formations the Pats do (1 down linemen, 4 LB and 6 DB) and as a result offenses have gotten more aggressive to exploit those defenses. Gibbs has not shown any innovation in his game plan or philosophy since his return..
-Players today are bigger, stronger, faster, more athletic than ever before.. While not diminishing any players of before (I am a child of the 70's and 80's so I saw all of the same ones you mentioned play) for every Lawrence Taylor, I give you Shawn Merriman or Brian Urlacher. For every Ronnie Lott, I give you Brian Dawkins or Ed Reed.. Today's players are more athletic, run faster and hit just as hard..

Yesterday's players were probably smarter, but overall today's game is different. By that I mean the game is tilted to what coaches can maximize their teams talents by suiting their gameplan to his team's strengths rather than teach a team to fit into their system.

A perfect example is Tony Dungy. His background is old school Chuck Noll, run the ball, take some shots downfield and play great defense. He turned TB from the NFL dregs to a powerhouse with that formula because he had those type of players.. When he got to Indy, he had a great QB, great WR and a bad defense.. Rather than force his philosophy, he let the offense continue to air it out (against [u][i]his[/u][/i] background) while trying to improve the defense. He's going to the Hall of Fame because he knew how to and was willing to adapt to the strengths of his team rather than stubbornly stick to 'his system'.

Gibbs seems like he's trying to fit square pegs into his round hole and that's why it's not working..

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

[QUOTE=Paintrain;358042] He's going to the Hall of Fame because he knew how to and was willing to adapt to the strengths of his team rather than stubbornly stick to 'his system'.[/QUOTE]

Great line. That sums it up perfectly.

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;358044]Great line. That sums it up perfectly.[/QUOTE]

You can make the case that that's why Gibbs is in the Hall of Fame. He came to the Redskins ready to unleash Air Coryell, then he saw what he had in Riggins and went with the "Heavy Jumbo", then he got the big play ability of Clark and Sanders and unleashed an aerial attack. And so on.

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;358045]You can make the case that that's why Gibbs is in the Hall of Fame. He came to the Redskins ready to unleash Air Coryell, then he saw what he had in Riggins and went with the "Heavy Jumbo", then he got the big play ability of Clark and Sanders and unleashed an aerial attack. And so on.[/QUOTE]

So what's the reason now to stubbornly stick to his brand of 'run the ball down your throat' football? I mentioned in another thread everyone got all lathered up about a 'return to Redskins football' down the stretch last year when we racked up like 140 rushing yards per game and went 2-5..

The stubborness of sticking to his system signals to me that either we have subpar talent and he's doing what he can to mask it and still win or he's determined to make his way work despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.