Re: 08' Mercedes C-Class v.s. '08 Infiniti G35 Sedan
 

The Focus and Fusion both get great reviews from Consumer Reports.

Re: 08' Mercedes C-Class v.s. '08 Infiniti G35 Sedan
 

Buster, that story you told about the Toyota Avalon's engine seems to indicate the Toyota engineers are complete and utter morons. It's as if you think Elmo and Big Bird built the car.

That story is so sensational that it can't possibly be true. Just about every test you see done by consumer reports consistently rates Toyotas amongst the most reliable out there. By the way, I'm not a car enthusiast or anything, but you have to give the nod to consumer reports when it comes to testing just about anything. Their methods are precise, well-funded, and extremely scientific.

But I was really talking about comfort anyway. My father has an Avalon, I swear it's like riding in a battleship (assuming battleships have really big and comfortable seats with tons of leg room).

Re: 08' Mercedes C-Class v.s. '08 Infiniti G35 Sedan
 

[QUOTE=cpayne5;359670]The first generation Focus had a propensity to randomly catch fire. But other than that little "glitch", it is a good car. Especially the new ones.

This is my favorite "feature" Ford has ever offered... :D
[YT]-dKLKm5i2ic[/YT]
I'd buy one! Too bad they "corrected" it.[/QUOTE]

Is that legit?
I don't see how it can do that for so long? I suppose if oil got in the headers it could work, but I would imagine it would flame out before it got to the tail pipe and would come out as smoke.
Any mechanics out there that could shed some light?

Re: 08' Mercedes C-Class v.s. '08 Infiniti G35 Sedan
 

[quote=jsarno;359703]Is that legit?
I don't see how it can do that for so long? I suppose if oil got in the headers it could work, but I would imagine it would flame out before it got to the tail pipe and would come out as smoke.
Any mechanics out there that could shed some light?[/quote].

its legit and as recent as this year.... they had to pre-emptively recall thousands of trucks because the first of the super duties released caught things such as fields on fire. adn these were diesels...

Re: 08' Mercedes C-Class v.s. '08 Infiniti G35 Sedan
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;359703]Is that legit?
I don't see how it can do that for so long? I suppose if oil got in the headers it could work, but I would imagine it would flame out before it got to the tail pipe and would come out as smoke.
Any mechanics out there that could shed some light?[/QUOTE]

100% legit. It is caused by a) the particulate filter in the exhaust and b) too much fuel getting through the injectors and into the filter.

The way this is supposed to work is...
1) the particulate filter catches a bunch of exhaust junk (for emissions purposes)
2) ECM releases (via injectors) a specified amount of raw fuel into exhaust
3) fuel gets caught in filter and raises the temp of the collected junk from (1) so that it burns off (without combustion)

But, in the case of these Fords, the faulty injectors released too much fuel which caused the temperature to rise to a point where combustion (read flames) occurred.

Ford actually halted sales of these trucks while they worked on a fix.

Re: 08' Mercedes C-Class v.s. '08 Infiniti G35 Sedan
 

I test drove an 08 Accord EX-L this evening. I'm really diggin the new design and this 4 cylinder trim model comes with leather.

Base invoice is around $24K. I didn't really talk too much about price and told them I'd come back later in the week. They offered it for $26,400. Time to put my game face on. I hate haggling. Any advice? (ahem... paging canthetuna)

Re: 08' Mercedes C-Class v.s. '08 Infiniti G35 Sedan
 

LB you probably don't have a lot room to move on their price. the new Accord is going to be hot and the dealers know this. They may take $500. I bet tough if you want a really good deal you could get a new 07 for a steal but it would be the old model.

Re: 08' Mercedes C-Class v.s. '08 Infiniti G35 Sedan
 

[quote=mredskins;359823]LB you probably don't have a lot room to move on their price. the new Accord is going to be hot and the dealers know this. They may take $500. I bet tough if you want a really good deal you could get a new 07 for a steal but it would be the old model.[/quote]
I know it'll be tough. The original MSRP was $26,900. They took $500 off the top. I told the dealer they also had a $250 coupon on their website. He neglected to mention that. I'm looking at a price of $25,000 to $25,500. Just wondering if that's realistic or not.

I don't really need a new car. I'm just tired of driving a stick shift and I would really like a sedan.

Re: 08' Mercedes C-Class v.s. '08 Infiniti G35 Sedan
 

[QUOTE=Lady Brave;359825]I know it'll be tough. The original MSRP was $26,900. They took $500 off the top. I told the dealer they also had a $250 coupon on their website. He neglected to mention that. I'm looking at a price of $25,000 to $25,500. Just wondering if that's realistic or not.

I don't really need a new car. I'm just tired of driving a stick shift and I would really like a sedan.[/QUOTE]


There is a dealer in Atlanta (Mike Patton Honda) selling them for what you want to pay. Might be worth the trip for the savings.

[url=http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2008-Honda-Accord-Sedan-EXL-Already-Discounting-Them_W0QQitemZ200160055067QQihZ010QQcategoryZ6254QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem]eBay Motors: Honda : Accord (item 200160055067 end time Oct-12-07 15:22:55 PDT)[/url]

[url]http://www.mikepattonhonda.com[/url]

Re: 08' Mercedes C-Class v.s. '08 Infiniti G35 Sedan
 

[QUOTE=Lady Brave;359821]I test drove an 08 Accord EX-L this evening. I'm really diggin the new design and this 4 cylinder trim model comes with leather.

Base invoice is around $24K. I didn't really talk too much about price and told them I'd come back later in the week. They offered it for $26,400. Time to put my game face on. I hate haggling. Any advice? (ahem... paging canthetuna)[/QUOTE]

I'm one of the worst hagglers you'll ever meet. You have to be prepared to say no...these guys are professionals.
My advice would be to go to [url=http://www.nada.com]N.A.D.A. Official Used Car Guide Company[/url] and do the "price with options" option so you can know EXACTLY what it costs. Offer them $500 to $750 max over invoice and they should take it. I have literally purchased 5 brand new vehicles, I have never paid more than $500 over invoice. They might try to say the manager won't allow it etc...then make up some BS story about another dealership that is 50 miles away offered $750 over invoice, but you like them and they are closer, so if they offer $500 over invoice, it's a done deal right now.
If they say something like, well "how bout 1k over invoice...it's only $500 more, I have kids to feed." You respond by saying, I have kids to feed too, and if it's "ONLY" $500 more, then a big bad super dealership like this could afford to pay that meezly figure for me. Just be strong. No weaknesses. Don't waiver in front of them...be fast and firm with your comments. If you pause and think about it, they will try their best to break you. If you are extremely firm then they know not to waste a lot of your time. They want that sale. It works...trust me.
I just paid 5k even for brand new top of line windows for my house...my buddy (who has 3 MORE windows in his house) paid $7500. He "thought" he got a deal, but they played him. With me, I kept saying no. They started at close to 12k, then without me saying anything they dropped it to 8500 and said that's the best they can do. I said thanks for your time have a good day. They stopped me and made a "mysterious" phone call to his manager and told me good news, we "just now" got co-op money and that will bring it down to 7k. I said no thanks, I have a magic figure in my mind, and you're not touching it. He asked for the figure and I said don't worry about it, you aren't there. He then gave me "manager discounts" and a military discount (even though he knew I wasn't in the military), and it came down to $5600. I said let me think about it, go put your stuff away while I talk to my wife. I talked to her, and laughed, she said "you have a figure in mind don't you?" I said yeah, 5k. She said, "go get em." I went out to him and said, here's the deal. I want my wal mart card (free card for listening to the speal) to be doubled to $100, and I want the windows for $5k even, no tax...just 5k. He got on the phone and his manager dropped it to 5400...I said 5k...then his manager said 5k but I have to pay tax...I laughed and said that's only like 50 off the 5400 you offered. I said 5k or nothing, and don't think I won't go to some hungry window company and get em for cheaper than you. You have this last chance. He said OK but you owe me...I said what...he said I have to put a sign in my yard for two weeks. I laughed and said sure.
You have to be willing to work them. They are experts at taking your money, you need to be an expert at keeping it.

Sorry for the long winded story, I see too many people get skrewed by sales people who know what to look for.

Re: 08' Mercedes C-Class v.s. '08 Infiniti G35 Sedan
 

[QUOTE=Lady Brave;359825]I know it'll be tough. The original MSRP was $26,900. They took $500 off the top. I told the dealer they also had a $250 coupon on their website. He neglected to mention that. I'm looking at a price of $25,000 to $25,500. Just wondering if that's realistic or not.

I don't really need a new car. I'm just tired of driving a stick shift and I would really like a sedan.[/QUOTE]

Don't mention ANY discounts until you come to an agreement on price, then after they agree, then you give them the coupon's / discounts. Those discounts / coupons are YOURS, not their's. They don't pay for those discounts, the Honda company does.
I'm telling you, you can get it for $500 over invoice with little issues. Just remember they pay A LOT less for that car...invoice is not actually what they pay even though they will lie and tell you that. They likely pay about 3k less for it. That's why you will see sales pitches of "buy any new car $500 or $1000 under invoice". They are just trying to get them off the lot, and are willing to take a small cut, but they are still making a profit.

Re: 08' Mercedes C-Class v.s. '08 Infiniti G35 Sedan
 

[quote=jsarno;359843]I'm one of the worst hagglers you'll ever meet. You have to be prepared to say no...these guys are professionals.
My advice would be to go to [URL="http://www.nada.com"]N.A.D.A. Official Used Car Guide Company[/URL] and do the "price with options" option so you can know EXACTLY what it costs. Offer them $500 to $750 max over invoice and they should take it. I have literally purchased 5 brand new vehicles, I have never paid more than $500 over invoice. They might try to say the manager won't allow it etc...then make up some BS story about another dealership that is 50 miles away offered $750 over invoice, but you like them and they are closer, so if they offer $500 over invoice, it's a done deal right now.
If they say something like, well "how bout 1k over invoice...it's only $500 more, I have kids to feed." You respond by saying, I have kids to feed too, and if it's "ONLY" $500 more, then a big bad super dealership like this could afford to pay that meezly figure for me. Just be strong. No weaknesses. Don't waiver in front of them...be fast and firm with your comments. If you pause and think about it, they will try their best to break you. If you are extremely firm then they know not to waste a lot of your time. They want that sale. It works...trust me.[/quote]

I always do a ton of research before I walk into a dealership. I'm usually pretty prepared and I don't budge on my bottom line price. Also, this car has very little add ons on it and I'm not paying for them. Seriously, you want to charge me $199 for undercoating and $99 for a pin stripe I can get at auto zone for mere pennies? Those things are strictly profit items. I know exactly what my trade is worth, so I won't budge on that either.

It's not that I don't know how to haggle. I just hate doing it. I've walked out of every dealership I've ever been in. I already told the salesman I have a very low tolerance for watching salespeople wear a path in the carpet to their manager's office. I was just wondering if anyone else had any tips or tricks to make the process go any faster.

Re: 08' Mercedes C-Class v.s. '08 Infiniti G35 Sedan
 

[quote=jsarno;359845]Don't mention ANY discounts until you come to an agreement on price, then after they agree, then you give them the coupon's / discounts. Those discounts / coupons are YOURS, not their's. They don't pay for those discounts, the Honda company does.
I'm telling you, you can get it for $500 over invoice with little issues. Just remember they pay A LOT less for that car...invoice is not actually what they pay even though they will lie and tell you that. They likely pay about 3k less for it. That's why you will see sales pitches of "buy any new car $500 or $1000 under invoice". They are just trying to get them off the lot, and are willing to take a small cut, but they are still making a profit.[/quote]
OMG, they asked me a gabillion times about my trade. I was like... no, we're going to talk car price and that's all. I know it's a major mistake to talk about trade, car payment, etc. before you've nailed down a price.

I've heard that you should only offer $500 over invoice, but I've dealt with too many dealers around here that won't budge off the MSRP. It's crazy.

Re: 08' Mercedes C-Class v.s. '08 Infiniti G35 Sedan
 

[QUOTE=Lady Brave;359846]I always do a ton of research before I walk into a dealership. I'm usually pretty prepared and I don't budge on my bottom line price. Also, this car has very little add ons on it and I'm not paying for them. Seriously, you want to charge me $199 for undercoating and $99 for a pin stripe I can get at auto zone for mere pennies? Those things are strictly profit items. I know exactly what my trade is worth, so I won't budge on that either.

It's not that I don't know how to haggle. I just hate doing it. I've walked out of every dealership I've ever been in. I already told the salesman I have a very low tolerance for watching salespeople wear a path in the carpet to their manager's office. I was just wondering if anyone else had any tips or tricks to make the process go any faster.[/QUOTE]

I actually enjoy it...I have bought 2 cars for my inlaws and 2 for my friends too. I get funny looks when I don't sign the paper work. LOL. They get upset but I tell them I know how to sell, I have been to classes and I have used it in the real world, if I don't help you'll kill them. You can get the next guy. LOL.
There is just about no way to make it go a whole lot faster, they have nothing else better to do but haggle you. The only way to make it go faster is to make a sense of urgency for them.
Call another Honda dealership and ask for a sales person, when you get one, write down his name and ask him if he has any BMW 3 series, he obviously won't, but now you have his name. So when you talk to your salesman, say, "so and so from DC Honda told me he'll have my car ready for only $650 over invoice, so either you drop it to $500 over invoice RIGHT now, I'll buy, if not, I'm going over there. You have 5 minutes to make a decision."

I would also use other comments like "so how many sales do you have this month?" Especially if it's the end of the month. Most also have contests, so you can ask where he is sitting compared to everyone else. Then say, well this could be the easiest sale you will have, cause I've already decided to buy, but at my price...will you match it?

Re: 08' Mercedes C-Class v.s. '08 Infiniti G35 Sedan
 

[QUOTE=Lady Brave;359849]OMG, they asked me a gabillion times about my trade. I was like... no, we're going to talk car price and that's all. I know it's a major mistake to talk about trade, car payment, etc. before you've nailed down a price.

I've heard that you should only offer $500 over invoice, but I've dealt with too many dealers around here that won't budge off the MSRP. It's crazy.[/QUOTE]

They will if you "sell them" like I have mentioned. No one pays MSRP unless they are dumb. You need to own the situation. You can do it. If you know how like you said, you can get it. It's simple to them, either you buy their car at your price, or you don't buy from them. What's the choice?

Re: 08' Mercedes C-Class v.s. '08 Infiniti G35 Sedan
 

[quote=jsarno;359851]They will if you "sell them" like I have mentioned. No one pays MSRP unless they are dumb. You need to own the situation. You can do it. If you know how like you said, you can get it. It's simple to them, either you buy their car at your price, or you don't buy from them. What's the choice?[/quote]
Thanks for the advice jsarno. I don't have any problem walking away if needed. I really hate buying a new car. I've always bought used. It seems like the process is easier buying a used vehicle. That's usually because they've already made their money off the sucker trading it in.

Re: 08' Mercedes C-Class v.s. '08 Infiniti G35 Sedan
 

My uncle walked into a dealership one day to buy a car. When he sat down at the salesman's desk, he pulled out an hour glass and told the guy "you have one hour to sell me this car for this much money". He drove away in his new car 45 minutes later. Paid $22,500 for a $32k MSRP Accord.

Re: 08' Mercedes C-Class v.s. '08 Infiniti G35 Sedan
 

[quote=cpayne5;359855]My uncle walked into a dealership one day to buy a car. When he sat down at the salesman's desk, he pulled out an hour glass and told the guy "you have one hour to sell me this car for this much money.". He drove away in his new car 45 mins later. Paid $22,500 for a $32k MSRP Accord.[/quote]
Haha... that's awesome.

The worst experience I've ever had was at a chrysler dealership. I've always driven chrysler and dodge. I was looking at a Sebring once and I had already located one in SC. I went to the dealership here and told them where the car was. The salesman started typing on his computer, looks at me and says, "there are no Red V6 Sebrings in the US right now. I really think you should reconsider the Red 4 cylinder on our lot."

WTH? Dude, I just told you where it is. He actually made me look it up on the computer and show him. I had even called the SC dealership before I got there and confirmed that they had it. Then I hear him talking to his manager and he said, "yeah, there's one in SC and one in VA." Then the guy walks around and says, "Good news! We've located the car you want."

ARGHHHH!!!!

Re: 08' Mercedes C-Class v.s. '08 Infiniti G35 Sedan
 

[QUOTE=Lady Brave;359854]Thanks for the advice jsarno. I don't have any problem walking away if needed. I really hate buying a new car. I've always bought used. It seems like the process is easier buying a used vehicle. That's usually because they've already made their money off the sucker trading it in.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, that's true. Even if they offer you a "seemingly" good deal, not only did they make 2-4k of the previous guy, they are making 1-2k off you.

Re: 08' Mercedes C-Class v.s. '08 Infiniti G35 Sedan
 

[QUOTE=cpayne5;359855]My uncle walked into a dealership one day to buy a car. When he sat down at the salesman's desk, he pulled out an hour glass and told the guy "you have one hour to sell me this car for this much money". He drove away in his new car 45 minutes later. Paid $22,500 for a $32k MSRP Accord.[/QUOTE]

That's what you have to do. They always try to have the ball in their court, you have to take control of the situation.
Good for him.
Most salesmen will gladly sell it to you for that price, cause they bend over so many other people each month that they more than make up for it.

Re: 08' Mercedes C-Class v.s. '08 Infiniti G35 Sedan
 

[quote=jsarno;359845] Just remember they pay A LOT less for that car...invoice is not actually what they pay even though they will lie and tell you that. They likely pay about 3k less for it. [/quote]


I know you want to believe that, but its not true. dealer holdback avgs 2% of invoice (ie 20k car = 400 bucks) and there' usually something called wholesale financial reserve, which usually equals about 1%. Some manufacturers are different, but this is the case with toyotas and hondas...



I always hated it when people came in and tried to act so sly and told me all about the business when they knew jack shit. One of the main reasons I left the business was that car buyers can turn into major dick-holes and will not allow honest salespeople to make a living.


Invioce DOES reflect the exact amount that the dealer strokes a check for, but they get refunded the amounts for holdback and financial reserve...

so its a deception, but you wouldn't believe how many people actually expect you to take a loss on a vehicle when they purchase one...



[B]ladybrave[/B], shop online and get a quote for what you want. dealing online will get you the best deal, and assure that you get the exact car you want without having to settle for something in someones inventory.

If you're not physically there looking at a new car (that isn't even what you had in mind in the first place) you have alot more bargaining chips.

use dealer's pricing against one another, but remember, the 2008 accord is a newly redesigned car, and hondas tend to sell for sticker when they first come out, even moreso than other manufacturers... you may have to wait a bit before you get your deal, but thats sometimes the price you pay to be the first on the block with the new toy.

if you get it for a few hundred bucks over invoice, you're doing great.

[url=http://www.edmunds.com/new/2008/honda/accord/100939059/optionsresults.html?action=2]2008 Honda Accord optional equipment at Edmunds[/url]

edmunds is saying they're selling for sticker, but you may be able to find a deal at a mega volume store...

Re: 08' Mercedes C-Class v.s. '08 Infiniti G35 Sedan
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;359664]You know...now that you mention it, I have never heard anything bad about a focus (other than personal opinions about power and style). I haven't heard anything bad about a Fusion either, but to be fair, I don't know a single person that owns one, or even rented one. All other Ford vehicles I have strong negative opinions of due to several people / vehicles and my own experience with Ford.[/QUOTE]
Ford is really doing a good job with their development lately. Most of their intros over the last 5-7 years have been very solid cars. The Focus is a good car and really has a lot of value for the money and everyone I know is almost raving about the Fusion. If GM could put some cars out like Ford the perception of US cars would change. It would take a while for a new image to take hold but it would change. I think any of the well rated Fords are good bets.

Re: 08' Mercedes C-Class v.s. '08 Infiniti G35 Sedan
 

[quote=jsarno;359850]
Call another Honda dealership and ask for a sales person, when you get one, write down his name and ask him if he has any BMW 3 series, he obviously won't, but now you have his name. So when you talk to your salesman, say, "so and so from DC Honda told me he'll have my car ready for only $650 over invoice, so either you drop it to $500 over invoice RIGHT now, I'll buy, if not, I'm going over there. You have 5 minutes to make a decision."
[/quote]

i wouldn't deal with guys like that.... my fav. line was, "well, it looks like we're not going to do business but we'll leave friends... or you'll leave and drive to another dealer and start all over with this crap... I'll just stay here for the next customer to come to me within the next five minutes, and maybe I'll have better luck" and shake your hands.

bullying salesmen works on new guys and scared salespeople, but the old pro's will only try harder and harder to screw you... the guys who are seriously trying to make a career out of car sales won't waste alot of time with someone if they cant find a common playing field...

I did business a little different, though. I had the HIGHEST CSI (customer satisfaction index) for 3 years in the store that had the highest scores in the northern VA area, and 75th in the nation, because I didn't jerk customers around, but had the self respect not to put up with the games people play either...

Re: 08' Mercedes C-Class v.s. '08 Infiniti G35 Sedan
 

[QUOTE=canthetuna;359864]I know you want to believe that, but its not true. dealer holdback avgs 2% of invoice (ie 20k car = 400 bucks) and there' usually something called wholesale financial reserve, which usually equals about 1%. Some manufacturers are different, but this is the case with toyotas and hondas...



I always hated it when people came in and tried to act so sly and told me all about the business when they knew jack shit. One of the main reasons I left the business was that car buyers can turn into major dick-holes and will not allow honest salespeople to make a living.


Invioce DOES reflect the exact amount that the dealer strokes a check for, but they get refunded the amounts for holdback and financial reserve...

so its a deception, but you wouldn't believe how many people actually expect you to take a loss on a vehicle when they purchase one...



[B]ladybrave[/B], shop online and get a quote for what you want. dealing online will get you the best deal, and assure that you get the exact car you want without having to settle for something in someones inventory.

If you're not physically there looking at a new car (that isn't even what you had in mind in the first place) you have alot more bargaining chips.

use dealer's pricing against one another, but remember, the 2008 accord is a newly redesigned car, and hondas tend to sell for sticker when they first come out, even moreso than other manufacturers... you may have to wait a bit before you get your deal, but thats sometimes the price you pay to be the first on the block with the new toy.

if you get it for a few hundred bucks over invoice, you're doing great.

[url=http://www.edmunds.com/new/2008/honda/accord/100939059/optionsresults.html?action=2]2008 Honda Accord optional equipment at Edmunds[/url]

edmunds is saying they're selling for sticker, but you may be able to find a deal at a mega volume store...[/QUOTE]
I'm with you on this. I like to get a deal but I also don't begrudge the salesperson trying to do their job and make a profit. The dealership is a profit making venture. I know car dealers have bad reps but I'd imagine a good percentage of them are just as honest as anyone.

Re: 08' Mercedes C-Class v.s. '08 Infiniti G35 Sedan
 

[quote=canthetuna;359868]i wouldn't deal with guys like that.... my fav. line was, "well, it looks like we're not going to do business but we'll leave friends... or you'll leave and drive to another dealer and start all over with this crap... I'll just stay here for the next customer to come to me within the next five minutes, and maybe I'll have better luck" and shake your hands.

bullying salesmen works on new guys and scared salespeople, but the old pro's will only try harder and harder to screw you... the guys who are seriously trying to make a career out of car sales won't waste alot of time with someone if they cant find a common playing field...

I did business a little different, though. I had the HIGHEST CSI (customer satisfaction index) for 3 years in the store that had the highest scores in the northern VA area, and 75th in the nation, because I didn't jerk customers around, but had the self respect not to put up with the games people play either...[/quote]

Dude my heart goes out to you I don't know how you could work in that business. So many assholes. Seriously if you are a educated buyer no one is going to screw you. There is no need to go into the dealership like you are going to do battle, they tell you a price if you don't like it walk out. No need to go back and fourth waste of time.

When I bought my 04 Accord I went to Brown Honda in Fairfax, they could have given two shits about me or my needs. So I politely said thanks but no thanks and head off to Rosethale in Tysons. Very nice people spent lots of time with me showing me the diffrent cars and which would work best for my finicial needs and personal driving needs. Halfway thur the process Brown honda calls me and offers me the same car as Rosenthal for $200 less, I told them politely no thanks I will pay a few extra dollars to a dealership that seems to guienly care about my needs.

When buying new cars espically hondas and toyotas there is very little room for huge discounts. I personally would rather go to the dealership have a nice experience, not get ripped off (educated buyer), and come home with the car I want.

Re: 08' Mercedes C-Class v.s. '08 Infiniti G35 Sedan
 

Canthetuna -- at the same time, many car salesman are real dick holes to. We went to a dealership to look at cars, we said from the very start we would NOT buy today, and we were simply driving to compare cars. After we left the dealership, the salesman would not stop calling us. Three times a day for a week, even after we said if we decide to buy the car, we won't be buying it from you.

I [b]hate[/b] aggressive salesmen. You're much more likely to get my sale if you let me browse and let me come to you.

Re: 08' Mercedes C-Class v.s. '08 Infiniti G35 Sedan
 

[quote=Daseal;359927]Canthetuna -- at the same time, many car salesman are real dick holes to. We went to a dealership to look at cars, we said from the very start we would NOT buy today, and we were simply driving to compare cars. After we left the dealership, the salesman would not stop calling us. Three times a day for a week, even after we said if we decide to buy the car, we won't be buying it from you.

I [B]hate[/B] aggressive salesmen. You're much more likely to get my sale if you let me browse and let me come to you.[/quote]

yeah there's a double edged sword with the calling people after the non-sale... I used to discuss phone calls before people left in order to set up expectations with them...

if they told me not to call them, i would't but I would always ask if I could call and check up with them, and try to have something else to let them know...

I've had alot of customers, though, call managers, or had managers call random customers (as the good ones do) etc.. and complain that they were'nt contacted and they felt that the salesman didn't want their business since they weren't followed up with. that happens more than you can imagine and that will get a salesman fired...

Having said that, even being in sales I hate agressive salespeople myself. Especially furniture shopping... I don't know what it is about shopping for furniture. I don't think I really need a salesman to help me pick out a couch or table, and don't like them lurking when my wife and I are talking about our decor and budget... they really piss me off.

A car, or even high end electronics I completely understand and welcome help (as long as its insightful and professional) but a fucking chair? Get a real job! ;)

Re: 08' Mercedes C-Class v.s. '08 Infiniti G35 Sedan
 

[QUOTE=canthetuna;359864]I know you want to believe that, but its not true. dealer holdback avgs 2% of invoice (ie 20k car = 400 bucks) and there' usually something called wholesale financial reserve, which usually equals about 1%. Some manufacturers are different, but this is the case with toyotas and hondas...[/quote]

Sound like a car salesman if you ask me.
I know the #1 salesman for the GM dealership out here, AND I know the owner of the dealership, and we have discussed this. I know for a fact that you are incorrect. (at least on GM cars) I have never bought a toyota or honda, but I find it hard to believe that GM cars are that much different from Toyota's and Hondas.

Don't give me that sob story about needing to make a living. Have you, or have you not skrewed people with high prices?

Re: 08' Mercedes C-Class v.s. '08 Infiniti G35 Sedan
 

[QUOTE=canthetuna;359934]

Having said that, even being in sales I hate agressive salespeople myself. Especially furniture shopping... I don't know what it is about shopping for furniture. I don't think I really need a salesman to help me pick out a couch or table, and don't like them lurking when my wife and I are talking about our decor and budget... they really piss me off.

A car, or even high end electronics I completely understand and welcome help (as long as its insightful and professional) but a fucking chair? Get a real job! ;)[/QUOTE]

I worked for a furniture company for 3 years as their credit and collections manager. I had to start that from the ground up. The sales people there were good people, but like you said, they needed to make a living. I watched as even the owner skrewed his own relatives. He would tell them a certain price and say "that's what I paid for it". When in fact he paid about 50% less than that for it. The lowest furniture has about a 50% mark up on it, the decent furn. has about a 75% mark up, and the high end can be anywhere from 100%-200% depending on where you are.
It's a lot harder to sell furniture than it is to sell cars. Even if you do pull off a decent sale it doesn't go very far.
A good salesman will tell you what you want to hear, while they may be good people, they are ruthless when dealing with them because it is their finnacial well being you are messing with. All sales people have to be underhanded at some point to be effective. It's a shame, but it's true. Money does that to people.

Re: 08' Mercedes C-Class v.s. '08 Infiniti G35 Sedan
 

[quote=jsarno;359946]Sound like a car salesman if you ask me.
I know the #1 salesman for the GM dealership out here, AND I know the owner of the dealership, and we have discussed this. I know for a fact that you are incorrect. (at least on GM cars) I have never bought a toyota or honda, but I find it hard to believe that GM cars are that much different from Toyota's and Hondas.

Don't give me that sob story about needing to make a living. Have you, or have you not skrewed people with high prices?[/quote]

Wow... its amazing that you have this insight that even third party websites, whose sole purpose is to inform the public of the inner workings of car dealerships, such as edmunds.com, kbb.com, and nada.com don't have access to. Hell I worked in the business on and off for over 5 years and didn't know all of the things you're telling me now....

As far as GM's go, I know there's actually less markup now then there was 3 years ago, because when GM ran a campaign to lower all of their MSRPs on their cars (as some of you will remember) a few years ago after their "employee pricing" thing, there's actually less markup in the GMs.

However, there are times when GM will give factory to dealer incentives (dealer cash) for certain units that do not have to be given directly to customers, and can be either included to make a deal, or are awarded to the dealer as profit...

these vary month to month and per unit and are far more common, and generally far greater values when it comes to domestics.

I think its great you had a conversation one time with a car salesman and now you are an auto industry expert. I was only a consistant top 5 salesman, Toyota Certified Expert, Toyota Truck Champion, and Internet Sales Manager for a few years. I saw the books and where money went.

I'll never talk about the secret society I joined and the oaths I took to never enlighten anyone about the inner secrets of the brotherhood, even when I left the business and had no reason not to tell the absolute truth about the things I experienced...


and to answer your question, NO. I never screwed anyone. Not to say that there handn't been instances where someone could've bought a car for less than what they did, but thats in all walks of business. I'm sure someone could pay someone less for what you do, but that doesn't mean you're screwing them...

My manufacturer allowed for 5-15% profit on vehicles from cost to MSRP and I never sold a car for more than MSRP. Compare that to most comsumer products, or even homes and who's screwing who?

Re: 08' Mercedes C-Class v.s. '08 Infiniti G35 Sedan
 

[quote=jsarno;359948]
A good salesman will tell you what you want to hear, while they may be good people, they are ruthless when dealing with them because it is their finnacial well being you are messing with. All sales people have to be underhanded at some point to be effective. It's a shame, but it's true. Money does that to people.[/quote]

you're dead wrong and you're stereotyping. there are salesmen who will honestly try to meet a customers needs and make sure that their experience is pleasant. these salespeople believe they will actually earn a commission instead of tricking someone into paying one.

you've got a very bleak outlook on things.

Re: 08' Mercedes C-Class v.s. '08 Infiniti G35 Sedan
 

[QUOTE=canthetuna;361541]you're dead wrong and you're stereotyping. there are salesmen who will honestly try to meet a customers needs and make sure that their experience is pleasant. these salespeople believe they will actually earn a commission instead of tricking someone into paying one.

you've got a very bleak outlook on things.[/QUOTE]

It really is a shame that you think that way. I am not talking about something that is foriegn, in fact, if you do a simple google search about dealer cost you come up with sites like these:
[url=http://www.newcarinsider.com/3.aspx?src=71000&subsrc=10000&asrc1=NICont4_6_0617506&asrc3=dealer_cost&dmd=v2ATF]Find Out MSRP, Invoice Price, And The Actual Price Of Your Desired Car, Step Three of NewCarInsider.com[/url]

Look at this quote:
[i]Dealer Holdback
About 2% to 5% of MSRP cost is held back by the manufacturer of the car, and will be given to the dealer when the dealer actually sells the car. This amount does not depend on how many cars the dealer sells.

Action: Subtract this amount from the Invoice Price. [/i]

Hmmmmm, so assume a 25k car, [b]that's $500 to $1250.[/b]

Here's another quote:
[i] Factory To Dealer Cash
About [b]$300 to $2000[/b] per car is given back to the dealer to sell slow selling cars. (If the manufacturer has not made this factory rebate known to the public, the car dealers are not required to pass you this saving.)

Action: If the dealer has over 30 cars similar to the ones you are seeking to purchase, and these cars have been sitting on the lot for over 25 days, there may be manufacturer incentives that drive the Actual Cost down. Ask the dealer about his dealership's quantity of cars your seek, and factor in this information into calculating the Actual Car Cost. [/i]

That's already $1000-$3000, and that's not all the incentives yet.
SO if you actually know what you're talking about, why did all the car dealerships sell their cars at UNDER invoices, often times $500 under if invoice is what they paid? What marketing genius thought of selling their product for less than what they pay for?

You can attack me all you want sir, but like I said, there are thousands of sites YOU CAN SEARCH that will tell you exactly what I am telling you. You were a salesman, you likely did not see the truth.

ps- if you have ever sold a vehicle at MSRP, then you skrewed someone and you lied to me. Salesmen are out for themselves and you know it. How can they not be? It's their salary...the more they squeeze out of me, the more that goes in their pockets.
Shit, you need to take sales CLASSES on how to learn to combat people's concerns and pitches. What do you think those classes are for? To be as nice as possible to clients?

I didn't say a salesman won't try to meet a customer's needs...of course they will need to (ie: power windows, DVD player etc) because if they don't, then it's no sale, but when it comes to talking turkey, the salesman will try to squeeze every penny out of you. How you can deny that is laughable.

I'm sure you're right about some sales people being honest and caring...those are the ones that can't take doing the job and quit eventually...or not hit quota and quit.

So please don't give me your speech, I proved with a simple link that you are wrong, and there are plenty more where that came from. Maybe it's cause your are too close to the situation to see the truth...I don't know, but do a little research buddy, you might be enlightened.

In the end, there is MSRP, invoice, and then what the dealer actually pays. This is common knowledge, and easily found.

Re: 08' Mercedes C-Class v.s. '08 Infiniti G35 Sedan
 

Not all sales people are out to shake you down. The guy that sold me my last car was a complete professional and he really cared about what I wanted and what I could actually afford (imagine that!). He even gave me some life lesson type info while we waited for financing to go through. He's probably retired by now but there's no question, the guy really wanted to take care of his customers.

Re: 08' Mercedes C-Class v.s. '08 Infiniti G35 Sedan
 

wow.. if you read my posts, I actually spell out all of what is on these websites. holdback avg.s 2%, wholesale financial reserve 1% sometimes there's dealer cash etc...

what's pissing me off is that you are completely generalizing people based on a profession, and attacking my credibility based on the fact that you shouldn't trust me because I sold cars, when everything I'm saying is absolutely true, then you post a website that basically says the same thing I'm saying... how does that prove me wrong?

On top of that Ladybrave is looking at a 25k accord and you're telling her the dealer buys them for around 3k under invoice. You are mistaken and adamantly misguiding expectations based on your unwarranted distrust.

Personally I'm done wasting time and cyber-space on this issue, as it has become more of a private issue, not a public discussion, and I apologize to all that have been exposed to a drawn out debate that you had no stake in, but I did feel a need to defend myself, as my character was attacked undeservingly.

Re: 08' Mercedes C-Class v.s. '08 Infiniti G35 Sedan
 

[quote=Schneed10;359695]Buster, that story you told about the Toyota Avalon's engine seems to indicate the Toyota engineers are complete and utter morons. It's as if you think Elmo and Big Bird built the car.

That story is so sensational that it can't possibly be true. Just about every test you see done by consumer reports consistently rates Toyotas amongst the most reliable out there. By the way, I'm not a car enthusiast or anything, but you have to give the nod to consumer reports when it comes to testing just about anything. Their methods are precise, well-funded, and extremely scientific.

But I was really talking about comfort anyway. My father has an Avalon, I swear it's like riding in a battleship (assuming battleships have really big and comfortable seats with tons of leg room).[/quote]

On some forums and by the Toyota rep she spoke to on the phone, this is far from a fluke/ It has happened to a lot of Avalons and Toyota knows about it, but they have not and will not do a recall. Hopefully they'll fix the future ones, but if you have one of the wet-vac versions, you'll be taking your chances with it. I'm sure it IS a comfortable car. For the price, it better be.

Re: 08' Mercedes C-Class v.s. '08 Infiniti G35 Sedan
 

[quote=saden1;361562]Not all sales people are out to shake you down. The guy that sold me my last car was a complete professional and he really cared about what I wanted and what I could actually afford (imagine that!). He even gave me some life lesson type info while we waited for financing to go through. He's probably retired by now but there's no question, the guy really wanted to take care of his customers.[/quote]

My brother sells cars and I know for a fact that he's not out to F everyone over.

There are some good people out there, you just have to be able to wade through the pool of sharks to get to them.

Re: 08' Mercedes C-Class v.s. '08 Infiniti G35 Sedan
 

[QUOTE=Buster;361746]On some forums and by the Toyota rep she spoke to on the phone, this is far from a fluke/ It has happened to a lot of Avalons and Toyota knows about it, but they have not and will not do a recall. Hopefully they'll fix the future ones, but if you have one of the wet-vac versions, you'll be taking your chances with it. I'm sure it IS a comfortable car. For the price, it better be.[/QUOTE]

For the life of me I cannot find any other occurrences of this. I searched all the big Toyota sites (most of them I lurk in anyway). I'm not yet convinced that this is a real problem. The evidence is anecdotal at best right now.

Re: 08' Mercedes C-Class v.s. '08 Infiniti G35 Sedan
 

[quote=cpayne5;361767]For the life of me I cannot find any other occurrences of this. I searched all the big Toyota sites (most of them I lurk in anyway). I'm not yet convinced that this is a real problem. The evidence is anecdotal at best right now.[/quote]


dude I have been checking too. It makes no sense. If any decent amout of water gets into the piston chamber the piston is going through the block due to the pressure.

Re: 08' Mercedes C-Class v.s. '08 Infiniti G35 Sedan
 

[QUOTE=canthetuna;361563]wow.. if you read my posts, I actually spell out all of what is on these websites. holdback avg.s 2%, wholesale financial reserve 1% sometimes there's dealer cash etc...[/quote]

Then how can you imply that invoice is what the dealer actually pays? It is not, even you are admitting it. So why did we go through all this if you actually do know invoice is not what the dealer pays?

[quote]what's pissing me off is that you are completely generalizing people based on a profession, and attacking my credibility based on the fact that you shouldn't trust me because I sold cars, when everything I'm saying is absolutely true, then you post a website that basically says the same thing I'm saying... how does that prove me wrong? [/quote]

While I do generalize a profession (ps- noted that you did not saying anything in response to my "have you ever sold a car at MSRP") it is justifiable. What you are not getting is I am not condemning them to hell, they are trying to make a living. You are trying to justify your (once) occupation, when there is no need to.
Have you ever seen a salesman tell THEIR customer, "no, you don't want to pay that much, I can sell it to you for so much less than that"???? Of course not.
That being said, I NEVER attacked you. You attacked me cause you took my comments as a personal attack, but I never personally attacked you like you did me.

[quote]On top of that Ladybrave is looking at a 25k accord and you're telling her the dealer buys them for around 3k under invoice. You are mistaken and adamantly misguiding expectations based on your unwarranted distrust.[/quote]

Well, Like I said, I dealt mainly with GM vehicles, and it is true in those cases. Maybe the honda's have a smaller kick back and other issues, but I doubt less than 2k when it's all tallied. I told her to ask for the vehicle $500-$750 over invoice. That is a good deal for both her and the dealership.

[quote]Personally I'm done wasting time and cyber-space on this issue, as it has become more of a private issue, not a public discussion, and I apologize to all that have been exposed to a drawn out debate that you had no stake in, but I did feel a need to defend myself, as my character was attacked undeservingly.[/QUOTE]

It only became personal when you attacked me. I was civil, and I was informative. You threw in personal attacks to justify your comments and feelings. I never once attacked your character, and if you felt that by association to salesmen I attacked you, you need to re read my posts.
You are trying to tell people that salesmen aren't out to make money...of COURSE they are. There is also no doubt that selling anything at MSRP is skrewing someone. You can think otherwise, that's your choice. That's what debate is all about.
In short, learn how to debate without taking things personally when YOU PERSONALLY are not being attacked.

Re: 08' Mercedes C-Class v.s. '08 Infiniti G35 Sedan
 

They started by building great roads, and then they focus'd on automobiles. Stick with the Germans on some things, not everything. But with luxury auto's, stick with the innovative pros.