Re: WP article: Time for Gibbs to walk away?
 

This is true, but who else would replace Gibbs in this franchise. we are afraid to return back to the norv/marty/spurrier days, though marty is worth looking for again, despite his reputation for playoff meltdown.

though coaching has past Gibbs, what we need here is continuity. and changing for this organization equals bad things, and up to know there is still traces of the result of these changes.

Re: WP article: Time for Gibbs to walk away?
 

A little perspective on another beatdown. On 9/29/85 the eventual champ Bears stomped Gibbs' Skins, 45-10 (Keep in mind. Back then coaches didn't run up the score unless they had a personal beef w/each other. Ditka & Gibbs always respected 1 another.)

A year later, see the entry from wikipedia below (notice the injury list). In addition to that, we beat them in the 1987-8 playoffs & went on to win the super bowl.

My point?
Gibbs has been through this before & while I agree w/much of what Shapiro said, this team may not be as far away as we think.

"The Bears were heavy favorites in the post season. They earned a first round bye. But in the first game at Soldier Field, they were upset by the Washington Redskins. A holding penalty and a missed field goal by Kevin Butler frustrated the Bears in the first quarter. However, they still managed to take a 13-7 lead into halftime. But their usual stellar defense fell apart in the second half, allowing the Redskins to score 20 unanswered points.

"Maybe my dreams didn't come true," said Chicago Coach Mike Ditka. "The defense has to play outstanding and today they were just not up to the way the Redskins were playing."

Despite injuries to offensive linemen Joe Jacoby and Russ Grimm, they and the rest of the blockers were able to pick up the Bears patented blitzes. Quarterback Jay Schroeder was sacked only twice. He was also able to use the blitzes to his advantage, completing passes while being chased out of the pocket.

Trailing 14-13 in the 4th quarter, the Bears good fortune ran out, when the usually dependable Payton lost a fumble, which led to an 83-yard touchdown drive by the Redskins. The long drive perpetrated against the NFL's best defense seemed to take the wind out of the Bears' sails. A few minutes later, the Bears muffed a punt return which set up an easy field goal for the Redskins.

When it was all said and done, the Bears lost 27-13. Still, they had a fantastic season overall, despite their weaknesses on offense and the poor play of their quarterbacks."

Re: WP article: Time for Gibbs to walk away?
 

For the record i'd like to see Gibbs stay at least til the end of next year. The article doesn't really say anything new. There is alot of truth to it, but nothing new.

There are really 2 sides to Gibbs 2.0.

Gibbs and co. have really done some great things in FA and in the draft. W/out doing my homework you've got Cooley, ST, Rocky, Landry, Golston, Montgomery, JC, & Rogers that have been drafted. You've got MW, Fletcher, Moss, ARE, Randy Thomas, Rabach, as some noteable FA's.

On the other hand some of the FO blunders leave a black eye on all of the good things they've done. #1 imo is the Brunell deal. Most didn't understand it at the time and still don't. Then you have in no particular order the Portis deal-throwing in a pick, LLoyd, Duckett, and AA. Just horrible deals that we all questioned at the time.

No new news here and sorry to bring it up again but the point is we do need a GM. This season still can be a success though, so the doom and gloom of the article for this year i don't really agree w/. I'm not ready to give up on it yet as we are 4-3.

Re: WP article: Time for Gibbs to walk away?
 

Unless we hire The All Mighty himself as General Manager, anyone we bring in will make plenty of mistakes as well. This notion that a GM is just going to magically fix everything (and never mind that they would still probably answer to at least Gibbs and Snyder) is beyond me.

Re: WP article: Time for Gibbs to walk away?
 

[QUOTE=freddyg12;372215]A little perspective on another beatdown. On 9/29/85 the eventual champ Bears stomped Gibbs' Skins, 45-10 (Keep in mind. Back then coaches didn't run up the score unless they had a personal beef w/each other. Ditka & Gibbs always respected 1 another.)

A year later, see the entry from wikipedia below (notice the injury list). In addition to that, we beat them in the 1987-8 playoffs & went on to win the super bowl.

My point?
Gibbs has been through this before & while I agree w/much of what Shapiro said, this team may not be as far away as we think.

"The Bears were heavy favorites in the post season. They earned a first round bye. But in the first game at Soldier Field, they were upset by the Washington Redskins. A holding penalty and a missed field goal by Kevin Butler frustrated the Bears in the first quarter. However, they still managed to take a 13-7 lead into halftime. But their usual stellar defense fell apart in the second half, allowing the Redskins to score 20 unanswered points.

"Maybe my dreams didn't come true," said Chicago Coach Mike Ditka. "The defense has to play outstanding and today they were just not up to the way the Redskins were playing."

Despite injuries to offensive linemen Joe Jacoby and Russ Grimm, they and the rest of the blockers were able to pick up the Bears patented blitzes. Quarterback Jay Schroeder was sacked only twice. He was also able to use the blitzes to his advantage, completing passes while being chased out of the pocket.

Trailing 14-13 in the 4th quarter, the Bears good fortune ran out, when the usually dependable Payton lost a fumble, which led to an 83-yard touchdown drive by the Redskins. The long drive perpetrated against the NFL's best defense seemed to take the wind out of the Bears' sails. A few minutes later, the Bears muffed a punt return which set up an easy field goal for the Redskins.

When it was all said and done, the Bears lost 27-13. Still, they had a fantastic season overall, despite their weaknesses on offense and the poor play of their quarterbacks."[/QUOTE]

Fair enough, but do you really think we could ever beat the Patriots with this team? Honestly? If we played 100 times could we win one?

Re: WP article: Time for Gibbs to walk away?
 

[quote=djnemo65;372228]Fair enough, but do you really think we could ever beat the Patriots with this team? Honestly? If we played 100 times could we win one?[/quote]

Actually, yes. They are by far the better team, but I thought going in we had a chance. I thought we still had a chance when we got Brady's fumble. Once they got a fumble in return, the wheels came off. The D was clearly worn out, more mentally than physically.

JC missed a couple throws he shouldn't have in the 1st half & the fumbles were due mainly to poor blocks, although Vrabel made a hell of a play on the one when he snuck up under CP. Even a 52-7 game still hinges on a couple plays. Not saying we'd won, but if we score to make it 17-7 at half, you have a different game.

In addition, GW didn't want to blitz w/Rogers & Smoot healthy, but if we were to play them again I think he'd definitely have a different game plan that included at least a few blitzes.

We got whooped but I don't think we're as bad as we played. Much of it is psychological and Gibbs biggest task is to get this team to step up & take control like they did in 05 after losing to the g-men & oakland. That aspect of Gibbs is what I have confidence in.

Re: WP article: Time for Gibbs to walk away?
 

They show get a GM, but Gibbs needs to take back over the playcalling. With his playbook. 50 Gut- counter trey = AL Saunders running plays up the middle

Re: WP article: Time for Gibbs to walk away?
 

You guys, I read an article a few years back that said there is not a lot of difference between teams that finish 10-6 or 6-10. A few plays here and there every week decides these team's fates. Teams that finish 11-5 or higher or 5-11 or lower are clearly better or worst than most teams they face. Last year the Skins were 5-11 with injuries and a QB change. The Skins were not that good at all. This year they are one of these teams that will finish somewhere between 10-6 and 6-10. I am personally hoping for the 10-6, or 9-7 side of this scale, but again a few plays here or there in each game will determine the Redskin's fates. A lot of those plays are luck and don't have anything to do with coaching, (missed FG, dropped pass, a fumble you don't recover) they are all "breaks" that either go your way or don't. We all know that the Skins have had a conservative game plan, the only fault with that to me is that Gibbs is trying too hard to control these "breaks", when you really can't. The best you can do with the talent of a 10-6 to 6-10 scaled team, (which IMO is the skill level of the team we have currently) is to play all out every play every week and hope more "breaks" come your way than the other team. Teams like the Pats, and the Colts don't play that way, because they are 11-5 or higher teams. The Skins are not.

Re: WP article: Time for Gibbs to walk away?
 

[QUOTE=Green1;372276]They show get a GM, but Gibbs needs to take back over the playcalling. With his playbook. 50 Gut- counter trey = AL Saunders running plays up the middle[/QUOTE]

I know that Portis is having trouble right now, but asking Al Saunders to run the ball up the gut might be a little too much to ask.

Re: WP article: Time for Gibbs to walk away?
 

For some reason, when people question how long it takes to build a Super Bowl winner, I think of the Pittsburgh Steelers and Bill Cowher. He was the Steelers coach for 15 years, and made it to the Super Bowl twice, winning once (14th season). While other teams went through coaches left and right, including the Redskins, Cowher was a mainstay in Pittsburgh.

I think whomever takes over for Gibbs (when he's ready to leave on his terms...he will not be fired), this is the style of approach necessary to build a winner. Cowher had 3 losing seasons in 15 years. The Rooneys gave him what he needed, and Cowher led them on the field.

Now, don't get me wrong...I know of the talk of Cowher being the next coach here. And I'm certainly not on the Cowher bandwagon to bring him here. We have 2 perfectly good candidates in Saunders and Williams to take over this team when Gibbs is ready. I see Gibbs keeping his Team President role and giving the next head coach what they need to be successful.

The New England game was an anomaly. New England played at the top of their game, while the Skins played at the bottom. This team is better than what we saw last Sunday, and I don't think we'll see that "team" again the rest of the season. The nice thing: at 4-3, we still have plenty of time to right the ship.

Re: WP article: Time for Gibbs to walk away?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;372226]Unless we hire The All Mighty himself as General Manager, anyone we bring in will make plenty of mistakes as well. This notion that a GM is just going to magically fix everything (and never mind that they would still probably answer to at least Gibbs and Snyder) is beyond me.[/quote]

I think bringing in a GM would help us not to make the really stupid decisions that the Redskins have made over the last 10 years. Everybody makes mistakes but it seems that the skins have made some horrible FO decisions that not too many other organizations have made. No a GM isn't going to magically fix everything but our system hasn't worked since Snyder has been here. 2 years in the playoffs, no championship games, 1 nfc east title...not going to cut it.

Re: WP artilce: Time for Gibbs to walk away?
 

[QUOTE=Daseal;372091][url=http://washingtonpost.com]washingtonpost.com - nation, world, technology and Washington area news and headlines[/url] is the link to the article.

The guy makes great points in his article. While for the most part I've been happy with Gibbs with the personnel he's gone after, his coaching has left a lot to be lacking. I feel like even 4 years in he doesn't understand clock management, is consistently letting opponents back in the game after every half, and seems like a mediocre coach in the NFL now days. Gibbs has had four years to turn this team around, and thanks to Clinton Portis running like a madman and our defense just being incrediable in 2005 we made the playoffs.

I would have been happy to see Gibbs gone last year, but every game that passes I'm getting more and more used to the idea of a new head coach in DC. If he wants to stay on for personnel decision, fine. But I'm ready for the Greg Williams era to begin.

I think those of you that know me realize this isn't some knee jerk reaction to the pats game. I think that was shocking of just how far we have to go, but still.[/QUOTE]

While I agree with some of your post ("I feel like even 4 years in he doesn't understand clock management, is consistently letting opponents back in the game after every half, and seems like a mediocre coach in the NFL now days"), I'm not sold on Gregg Williams becomming our "next" savior. Granted the Buffalo Bills were a completely different organization than the 'Skins, I wonder how Williams would approach the offensive side of things. Would he keep Al Saunders or get someone new? Again, this would be yet another re-building of the team and how many times have we gone through that process already? I'm sad to say that I do agree with you that if coach Joe doesn't right the ship after this season, changes must be made at the top starting with the head coach we have all come to admire.

Re: WP article: Time for Gibbs to walk away?
 

[QUOTE=redsk1;372291]I think bringing in a GM would help us not to make the really stupid decisions that the Redskins have made over the last 10 years. Everybody makes mistakes but it seems that the skins have made some horrible FO decisions that not too many other organizations have made. No a GM isn't going to magically fix everything but our system hasn't worked since Snyder has been here. 2 years in the playoffs, no championship games, 1 nfc east title...not going to cut it.[/QUOTE]

For all of the criticism heaped on the front office (and some of it is much deserved), there aren't too many FA moves we've made since 2000 that I disagree with. What big-money free agent deals would you take back? I'd only go with Trotter, Archuleta, Duckett, and Lloyd. People, including myself, were highly critical of the trades to nab Jason Campbell and Rocky McIntosh. And while the jury is still out on those guys, the moves actually look pretty damn good right now.

Re: WP article: Time for Gibbs to walk away?
 

[QUOTE=Green1;372276]They show get a GM, but Gibbs needs to take back over the playcalling. With his playbook. 50 Gut- counter trey = AL Saunders running plays up the middle[/QUOTE]

Welcome to the site Green1. But, what you suggest is really what has made Gibbs so predictable. 50 Gut, Counter Trey, etc., etc. worked well back in the 80's, but I don't truly believe he's had near as much success running those type formations in his second round.

Re: WP article: Time for Gibbs to walk away?
 

[QUOTE=BDBohnzie;372289]For some reason, when people question how long it takes to build a Super Bowl winner, I think of the Pittsburgh Steelers and Bill Cowher. He was the Steelers coach for 15 years, and made it to the Super Bowl twice, winning once (14th season). While other teams went through coaches left and right, including the Redskins, Cowher was a mainstay in Pittsburgh.

I think whomever takes over for Gibbs (when he's ready to leave on his terms...he will not be fired), this is the style of approach necessary to build a winner. Cowher had 3 losing seasons in 15 years. The Rooneys gave him what he needed, and Cowher led them on the field.

Now, don't get me wrong...I know of the talk of Cowher being the next coach here. And I'm certainly not on the Cowher bandwagon to bring him here. We have 2 perfectly good candidates in Saunders and Williams to take over this team when Gibbs is ready. I see Gibbs keeping his Team President role and giving the next head coach what they need to be successful.

The New England game was an anomaly. New England played at the top of their game, while the Skins played at the bottom. This team is better than what we saw last Sunday, and I don't think we'll see that "team" again the rest of the season. The nice thing: at 4-3, we still have plenty of time to right the ship.[/QUOTE]



Cowher may have only won the SB once but he was in the AFC chamionship game a bunch and a perennial playoff contender. I think a big part of the reason Cowher could coach for 15 years is that he was brought in young so even if it took a few years to get the ball rolling he was still young enough to let it roll for a few years. Like I said before, Gibbs is old and is now in his 4th season. Even if the ball got rolling fast (which it didnt) it wasnt like Gibbs was going to be around long anyway so it would be on to another coach and a new system. Thats just not the way to build a consistent winner. I hope the next redskin coach is closer to 30 yrs old than to 70.

Re: WP article: Time for Gibbs to walk away?
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;372296]For all of the criticism heaped on the front office (and some of it is much deserved), there aren't too many FA moves we've made since 2000 that I disagree with. What big-money free agent deals would you take back? I'd only go with Trotter, Archuleta, Duckett, and Lloyd. People, including myself, were highly critical of the trades to nab Jason Campbell and Rocky McIntosh. And while the jury is still out on those guys, the moves actually look pretty damn good right now.[/quote]

There are alot of good moves too, no question. I posted them earlier in the thread. We need to avoid the lloyds, AA, Duckett, Portis draft pick, etc.

Re: WP article: Time for Gibbs to walk away?
 

its hard to disagree with the guy. he makes some very good points. Fact is Gibbs really hasn't turned around this franchise like we all have expected, and I am sure as Snyder expected. 6-10 1st season, 10-6 second season (with a 5 game winning streak) 5-11 the third and 4-3 righ now. I still see the same stupid stuff we saw when he came back. Clock management, lack of adjustments, bad moves personel wise, no offensive creativity, playing not to lose instead of to win. He has given us some good talent as the writer points out, but as a whole I think the personel moves have been less than average. I just dont see this team in any better situation (win loss record) than before he got here. I know people are going to bring up the players we have, and that supports my statement. With these players we should be winning more, we should be scoring more points, instead of having the 25th to 31st ranked offense every year.

Re: WP artilce: Time for Gibbs to walk away?
 

Thank God that Snyder owns the team not the Washington Post with those goofballs saying Spurrier was better than Gibbs is really stupid as he turned over signal calling and had Lewis organize the team activities plus the record was not getting any better

[QUOTE=skinsfan0201;372080]Everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion, but Gibbs walked into a firestorm and has already taken a franchise to the playoffs once in his second tenure. The NFL is a much tougher place than it used to be, and I think that Joe knows what is best for Joe, but he has already put the Redskins in a far better place as a franchise than it was before he got here. And in addition, sorry but injuries do play a hell of a role in whether or not you are in contention down the line, especially when a lot of teams including the Patriots are built around the offensive line to start. :) So there is my opinion, maybe our writers at the Washington Post, though I respect them Shapiro, Wilbon, Kornheiser should think a little more about not trying to make such a splash with there somewhat meddling articles especially this week.[/QUOTE]

Re: WP artilce: Time for Gibbs to walk away?
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;372088]I didn't see and don't need to read the article. Whomever wrote it has no sense of timing. That is the kind of article you write in the offseason or when the team is clearly going to wind up with a bad record. To pose a question in Week 9 about whether Gibbs should hang it up is premature and, to use the word of the week, retarded.

On a related note, I'm tired of people overreacting to each and every win [B]or[/B] loss. After the games against Miami and Philadelphia, most every fan and journalist said things like, "Good teams win close games and beat teams that they are supposed to beat. The Redskins managed to pull out wins in close games against teams that they were supposed to beat. In short, they are a good team." After the Detroit game, just about everyone was ready to send Jason to Hawaii and get order tickets to the Super Bowl. And so, with expectations generally running very high, people predicted that we would actually beat a team that is just crushing their opponents. What is aggravating is that many of the very same people who predicted that we would beat the very best team in the NFL are now jumping ship after getting beaten by a team that should have beaten us. So in one week people are predicting that we will beat the best team in the league and the next week they are predicting an implosion?

Aside from the worst of the worst and the best of the best, teams win games and they lose games. This is the NFL and, as the saying goes, "On any given Sunday." Great teams lose games that they "shouldn't" and bad teams win games even when the consensus was that they couldn't. Nevertheless, fans and the media overreact to and over-analyze each and every play in each and every game. The players fumble balls or the quarterback throws a few picks and all of the sudden the coaches go from Godsends to incompetents and the players go from studs to duds.

The fact is that this team is going to lose and win games....all with the same coaching staff, schemes, players, and jock straps. The bottom line is that this team is neither horrible nor spectacular. It is a slightly above average team that has a very good chance of making the playoffs. Could they screw it up? Sure. As they say, "On any given Sunday."[/QUOTE]

i think you about covered it all and i commend your efforts...
in this era of free agency it much harder to keep eveyone happy and keep them together for long periods of time ,aka the 80,thru early 90,s like you used too and that where joe gibbs excelled at.so we will win/lose games i just hope we win more than we lose and win the ones against dallas and i,m thrilled to death..
the media and fans do tend to get a little carried away.. great post.

Re: WP article: Time for Gibbs to walk away?
 

[QUOTE=redsk1;372291]I think bringing in a GM would help us not to make the really stupid decisions that the Redskins have made over the last 10 years. [B]Everybody makes mistakes but it seems that the skins have made some horrible FO decisions that not too many other organizations have made.[/B] No a GM isn't going to magically fix everything but our system hasn't worked since Snyder has been here. 2 years in the playoffs, no championship games, 1 nfc east title...not going to cut it.[/QUOTE]

I think that's a misperception simply because we follow the team so closely compared to other teams.

Re: WP artilce: Time for Gibbs to walk away?
 

[QUOTE=paulskinsfan;372115]I think he's calling for Gibbs to walk away after the season, not now.[/QUOTE]


That makes NO sense. Why would you do that with 9 games to play...?

Who knows how good it could turn out with that much football left. That's just flat out stupidity.

Re: WP article: Time for Gibbs to walk away?
 

I say yes. He should walk away right now in the middle of the season. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here.

Re: WP article: Time for Gibbs to walk away?
 

[QUOTE=70Chip;372340]I say yes. He should walk away right now in the middle of the season. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here.[/QUOTE]

Retire mid-season when you've got a 4-3 record and headed for 5-3? Wow. You can't be a critic of Danny's hasty moves that show no patience. Please say you are joking.

Re: WP article: Time for Gibbs to walk away?
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;372342]Retire mid-season when you've got a 4-3 record and headed for 5-3? Wow. You can't be a critic of Danny's hasty moves that show no patience. Please say you are joking.[/quote]

Of course I was joking.

Re: WP article: Time for Gibbs to walk away?
 

[QUOTE=70Chip;372347]Of course I was joking.[/QUOTE]

Ahhh, given the general tone of things around here, sarcasm is not so easy to detect.

Re: WP article: Time for Gibbs to walk away?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;372337]I think that's a misperception simply because we follow the team so closely compared to other teams.[/quote]

I don't know, maybe. However...I don't remember any other team willing to sign Mark Brunell to a long term deal, giving away picks to do so(i believe..) at that point in his career. I could go on and question each FO choice but its common knowledge around the league that our front office/personel dept has made alot of blatant errors. We practically have given our draft away the last few years from mostly poor decisions.

Sure there are some fa busts around the league, but other teams busts aren't the highest paid FA's on the market. At least i can't think of any.

Re: WP article: Time for Gibbs to walk away?
 

[QUOTE=redsk1;372354]I don't know, maybe. However...I don't remember any other team willing to sign Mark Brunell to a long term deal, giving away picks to do so(i believe..) at that point in his career. I could go on and question each FO choice but its common knowledge around the league that our front office/personel dept has made alot of blatant errors. We practically have given our draft away the last few years from mostly poor decisions.

Sure there are some fa busts around the league, but other teams busts aren't the highest paid FA's on the market. At least i can't think of any.[/QUOTE]

I agree 100%. The Skins have way more FA disappointments than surprises. As for giving away draft picks for nothing, I have been saying that for awhile now. Most successful teams (Steelers, Pats) build a foundation and depth through the draft and get a FA to fill a hole and put the team over the top. The Skins retool every year with FAs and draft to plug holes. Its not working. This organization need a complete change in how they build a lasting winning team not just a one year wonder (which they cant do either).

Re: WP article: Time for Gibbs to walk away?
 

[QUOTE=redsk1;372354]I don't know, maybe. However...I don't remember any other team willing to sign Mark Brunell to a long term deal, giving away picks to do so(i believe..) at that point in his career. I could go on and question each FO choice but its common knowledge around the league that our front office/personel dept has made alot of blatant errors. We practically have given our draft away the last few years from mostly poor decisions.

Sure there are some fa busts around the league, but other teams busts aren't the highest paid FA's on the market. At least i can't think of any.[/QUOTE]

How about Darren Howard and Jevon Kearse? The Eagles fans are about to lynch Kearse, Bang cartoons made a skit about Kearse being a bust, and Howard can't crack the starting lineup. Or how about the 49ers free agent spending spree? How is that working out?

If you create a list of all Redskins free agents since 2001 who got $5M+ in bonus money, our track record is suprisingly good. As for draft picks, the results have been mixed and we've given too many away. But, I don't think the media's perception (i.e., conventional wisdom) of the Redskins front office is exactly 20/20. In discussing the Redskins moves they still talk about 2000. We made some boneheaded moves in 2000, but that was 7 years ago. I had a b----h of a girlfriend 7 years ago, but I've let that go. Apparently, the media has some sort of love/hate affair with us.....they just can't let stuff go.

Re: WP article: Time for Gibbs to walk away?
 

ex falcons coach Jim Mora with the grooming of Gibbs is a good candidate

Re: WP artilce: Time for Gibbs to walk away?
 

[quote=DieHardSkinsFan777;372338]That makes NO sense. Why would you do that with 9 games to play...?

Who knows how good it could turn out with that much football left. That's just flat out stupidity.[/quote]


Ok, lets not start calling people stupid, because that in and of itself reeks of ignorance. Calling people "stupid" when there is a legitimate debate about ideas effectively ends thoughtful debate and then the namecalling begins. This happens all the time in politics, but Im not going to say which side does that more in this forum.

Shapiro's point is that the basic coaching/front office flaws he saw in Gibbs first year back are still present today. He therefore believes that the very best this team can do this year is 7-9 or maybe even 8-8. The authors point is that 3 and 1/2 years into Gibbs second era, it was painfully obvious at the NE game that this franchise is no where close to becoming one of the great teams in the NFL. The leadership, in the author's opinion, has failed and it has been given plenty of time to turn this thing around. I would agree, that even if we somehow made the playoffs this year in the pathetic NFC, this team as a whole simply is not moving in the right direction.

Re: WP artilce: Time for Gibbs to walk away?
 

[quote=paulskinsfan;372528]Ok, lets not start calling people stupid, because that in and of itself reeks of ignorance. Calling people "stupid" when there is a legitimate debate about ideas effectively ends thoughtful debate and then the namecalling begins. This happens all the time in politics, but Im not going to say which side does that more in this forum.

Shapiro's point is that the basic coaching/front office flaws he saw in Gibbs first year back are still present today. He therefore believes that the very best this team can do this year is 7-9 or maybe even 8-8. The authors point is that 3 and 1/2 years into Gibbs second era, it was painfully obvious at the NE game that this franchise is no where close to becoming one of the great teams in the NFL. The leadership, in the author's opinion, has failed and it has been given plenty of time to turn this thing around. I would agree, that even if we somehow made the playoffs this year in the pathetic NFC, this team as a whole simply is not moving in the right direction.[/quote]

I beg to differ, 3.5 years is not enough to turn it around. I don't think that was his point anyway. I think he said that Gibbs doesn't exhibit the same command of the game as a head coach, most notably in his game decisions. I agree w/him on that more than anything.

Gibbs arguably did "turn it around" in 05. He has had to deal w/the mess of spurrier & the signings of that era. He didn't handle some things well in learning the cap, but appears better despite bad moves like loyd.

I certainly feel the franchise is heading in the right direction. Young talented qb, numerous youngsters on D, and some decent playmakers. We have needs of course, but IF this team gets healthy at the right time, we can make a run. I don't understand how you would consider it not moving in the right direction if we make the playoffs this year. That would be 2 times in 4 years. Between Gibbs I & II (93-03), we'd been to the playoffs once (99-00).

Re: WP artilce: Time for Gibbs to walk away?
 

[quote=paulskinsfan;372528]Ok, lets not start calling people stupid, because that in and of itself reeks of ignorance. Calling people "stupid" when there is a legitimate debate about ideas effectively ends thoughtful debate and then the namecalling begins. This happens all the time in politics, but Im not going to say which side does that more in this forum.

Shapiro's point is that the basic coaching/front office flaws he saw in Gibbs first year back are still present today. He therefore believes that the very best this team can do this year is 7-9 or maybe even 8-8. The authors point is that 3 and 1/2 years into Gibbs second era, it was painfully obvious at the NE game that this franchise is no where close to becoming one of the great teams in the NFL. The leadership, in the author's opinion, has failed and it has been given plenty of time to turn this thing around. I would agree, that even if we somehow made the playoffs this year in the pathetic NFC, this team as a whole simply is not moving in the right direction.[/quote]

Wait a sec, he wasn't calling any one individual stupid.

Re: WP article: Time for Gibbs to walk away?
 

Freddy, regardless of what you feel is a decent amount of time to turn it around, few head coaches in the NFL more than four years to make their team a contender. It's the way of the NFL now for better or worse.

Re: WP article: Time for Gibbs to walk away?
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;372360]How about Darren Howard and Jevon Kearse? The Eagles fans are about to lynch Kearse, Bang cartoons made a skit about Kearse being a bust, and Howard can't crack the starting lineup. Or how about the 49ers free agent spending spree? How is that working out?

If you create a list of all Redskins free agents since 2001 who got $5M+ in bonus money, our track record is suprisingly good. As for draft picks, the results have been mixed and we've given too many away. But, I don't think the media's perception (i.e., conventional wisdom) of the Redskins front office is exactly 20/20. In discussing the Redskins moves they still talk about 2000. We made some boneheaded moves in 2000, but that was 7 years ago. I had a b----h of a girlfriend 7 years ago, but I've let that go. Apparently, the media has some sort of love/hate affair with us.....they just can't let stuff go.[/quote]

Agreed that the media still thinks about the FA's of 2000 when talking about the skins...that's unfair. I will point out that that we made AA one of the highest, if not the highest paid safety in the league. I don't know too much about the Kearse signing, but at the time he was top 5 pass rushers in the NFL. Due to injuries his play has diminished. Hindsight would say it's a bad signing but at the time there were alot of teams bidding for his services.

I don't know of too many high paid recievers like B lloyd that only have had 3 or 4 catches for their new team. I can't think of any.

Re: WP article: Time for Gibbs to walk away?
 

I would argue that the contract extensions at the end of the 2006 season (Sellers and Betts), plus Cooley's recent extension demonstrate that Gibbs and the FO are [B]FINALLY[/B] starting to get it from a personnel perspective. Keeping a core group together is a huge key to success in the NFL. As for newer guys, who would argue against the 2007 free agent signings of London Fletcher and Fred Smoot? Even the Pete Kendall trade was a solid one for us. If the FO can address the O-line and perhaps add a pass rushing DE in the draft, we have the makings of a very solid contender for 2008.

Re: WP article: Time for Gibbs to walk away?
 

[QUOTE=Dlyne8r;372301]Welcome to the site Green1. But, what you suggest is really what has made Gibbs so predictable. 50 Gut, Counter Trey, etc., etc. worked well back in the 80's, but I don't truly believe he's had near as much success running those type formations in his second round.[/QUOTE]

Those plays work to get the skins to the playoffs in 2004. Why not now? If Gibbs walks away why not let him do it his way with control of the offense, and if he can't get to the playoffs then he should walk away. Football is football from the 1980's until now the only difference is the speed and size of the players. Its still executing the plays correctly and being able to block and tackle. You guys are trying to make it so complex and its not. The plays then and and now are basicially the same the only thing different is the formations. Check out the west coast offense. An 1980's offense but almost all of the teams in the NFL run it. Joe Gibbs offense will work with people that can execute it.

Re: WP article: Time for Gibbs to walk away?
 

I think our problem is we're used to free agents being able to make an immediate impact.
[quote]If the FO can address the O-line and perhaps add a pass rushing DE in the draft, we have the makings of a very solid contender for 2008.[/quote]

While I don't deny what you're saying here (although I think we need a WR too) I think the logic is flawed. We draft rookies, and expect them to come in and be solid starters. As we see, it often takes players a while to develop. Part of building through the draft is being patient with the players that come through. The hate I've seen for Carlos Rogers playing arguable one of the 3 hardest positions in football, has amazed me. It made me realize why we go after free agency, no one wants to let these players develop. If the biggest gripe someone as about a [B]corner back[/B] is their hands, I feel they've done a pretty damn good job, especially since it was his 2nd season.

Re: WP article: Time for Gibbs to walk away?
 

[quote=Daseal;372535]Freddy, regardless of what you feel is a decent amount of time to turn it around, few head coaches in the NFL more than four years to make their team a contender. It's the way of the NFL now for better or worse.[/quote]

point taken, however no team in the nfl has quite the mess that Synder created. When the CBA was about to expire in 06 we were in serious trouble given the dead cap space we had. That's why I think that Gibbs should be evaluated relative to the task he's faced.

That said, Gibbs has done a good job of building for the future IMO & I think this team could be a contender next year. I agree w/Shapiro's assessment of his clock mgmt. & overall game day performance. Gibbs doesn't have the edge he once had, but it might be a matter of him getting it back each year. His teams have developed a pattern the last 3 years of regressing towards the middle of the year, then needing a return to "redskins football" to finish the year strong. This is the 3rd year in a row we've heard the same thing (interesting to note that Gibbs did this in 05 w/out Saunders around) at about the same time.

It may be that Gibbs himself needs that much time into the season to put his foot down. I don't care so long as he can get the team to finish strong, but I'll also admit it's a pattern that can't go on every year.

Re: WP article: Time for Gibbs to walk away?
 

[quote=Daseal;372548] ...
While I don't deny what you're saying here (although I think we need a WR too) I think the logic is flawed. We draft rookies, and expect them to come in and be solid starters. As we see, it often takes players a while to develop. Part of building through the draft is being patient with the players that come through. The hate I've seen for Carlos Rogers playing arguable one of the 3 hardest positions in football, has amazed me. It made me realize why we go after free agency, no one wants to let these players develop. If the biggest gripe someone as about a [B]corner back[/B] is their hands, I feel they've done a pretty damn good job, especially since it was his 2nd season.[/quote]I'd argue that we've done quite well with our first day draft picks, and they have [B]all[/B] become solid starters. I have been a Carlos Rogers defender this season - he was playing well prior to his injury. Other day 1 selections are also starters and doing quite well (Campbell, Taylor, McIntosh, Cooley, and Landry). 2nd day picks Golston and Montgomery have also contributed, while Blades certainly looks like a keeper. I am fine with the FO's recent draft record. I would definitely like to see us do a better job of retaining our picks for future drafts, which seems to be the case after getting burned on Lloyd and Duckett. In a nutshell, I think that Gibbs and the FO finally understand that establishing a stable core is key, and being selective in FA (i.e. Fletcher, Smoot) and drafting well are equally important. A few more offseasons like 2007 will produce a consistent contender IMO.

Re: WP article: Time for Gibbs to walk away?
 

[quote=Daseal;372548]While I don't deny what you're saying here (although I think we need a WR too) I think the logic is flawed. We draft rookies, and expect them to come in and be solid starters. As we see, it often takes players a while to develop. Part of building through the draft is being patient with the players that come through. The hate I've seen for Carlos Rogers playing arguable one of the 3 hardest positions in football, has amazed me. It made me realize why we go after free agency, no one wants to let these players develop. If the biggest gripe someone as about a [B]corner back[/B] is their hands, I feel they've done a pretty damn good job, especially since it was his 2nd season.[/quote]Good point.

Very few draft picks can do anything more than fill a gap in their first season, and those who do tend to be great, albeit few and far between.

We should now be starting to see the return on our 2004 and 2005 drafts. Our first pick in 2005 just went out for the year with a knee injury, so that leaves Taylor, Cooley, and Campbell.

Those three have progressed pretty well to date, but we simply didn't put enough youth in the system to run with it.