Re: The main reason the Skins lost to the Eagles?
 

[QUOTE=sportscurmudgeon;377322]After wasting two timeouts to prevent delay of game penalties - - in THEIR OWN STADIUM - - the braintrust on the sidelines decided to spend the last timeout challenging a call that was so obviously not going to be overturned. Who was up in the booth looking at replays telling Joe Gibbs to toss that red flag on the field? Stevie Wonder?[/QUOTE]

I'm a staunch Gibbs supporter, but these clock management issues definitely need to get worked out. I was pounding my fist on the bar when we took our second timeout. Gibbs gets a pass for the challenge, but we seriously need to find a new guy up in the booth. We've got to have one of the worst success rates on challenges in the league.

Re: The main reason the Skins lost to the Eagles?
 

[QUOTE=warriorzpath;377341]Whatever, the offense doesn't play their plays in a vacuum - and the same for the defense. I don't want a math formula to figure out games. All I know was the offense had 2 chances at the end to win the game and didn't. There were already a few times this season that the defense stepped up - even in this game with the forced fumble. How do you throw a defense like that under the proverbial bus?

The expectations for the offense are so low and the defense too high. It's time for the offense to step up.[/QUOTE]

Let me say again: the previous games don't matter. They're irrelevant regarding this argument.

The defense had far more than two chances to stop Philly from scoring, and they didn't. Why do you ignore that? We were missing tackles left and right, from Brian Westbrook -- probably the smallest back in the league. We'd get to him, but he'd break our arm tackles. But, I guess you're right: that wasn't the defense's fault. :doh:

Would you agree that it's unreasonable to demand 50 points from your offense every game? I would. It's unreasonable because of the probability that it happens is very low. That is why the numbers are important. You are demanding something unreasonable from the offense.

The defense, on the other hand, gave up 33 points yesterday. The worst defense in the league gives up 29 points on average.

Re: The main reason the Skins lost to the Eagles?
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;377345]Let me say again: the previous games don't matter. They're irrelevant regarding this argument.

The defense had far more than two chances to stop Philly from scoring, and they didn't. Why do you ignore that? We were missing tackles left and right, from Brian Westbrook -- probably the smallest back in the league. We'd get to him, but he'd break our arm tackles. But, I guess you're right: that wasn't the defense's fault.

Would you agree that it's unreasonable to demand 50 points from your offense every game? I would. It's unreasonable because of the probability that it happens is very low. That is why the numbers are important. You are demanding something unreasonable from the offense.

The defense, on the other hand, gave up 33 points yesterday. The worst defense in the league gives up 29 points on average.[/quote]

What are you talking about - "the previous games don't matter". When you're taking into account the average points of the worst defense and the top 5 offensive average points per game. I can't argue with the performance of past redskins games this season, but you can argue with stats of games of other teams?

Re: The main reason the Skins lost to the Eagles?
 

[QUOTE=warriorzpath;377349]What are you talking about - "the previous games don't matter". When you're taking into account the average points of the worst defense and the top 5 offensive average points per game. I can't argue with the performance of past redskins games this season, but you can argue with stats of games of other teams?[/QUOTE]

I am using the cumulative stats from previous games around the league as a way to measure the performance of the offense and defense yesterday. What are you using to measure their performance? You are just saying they should have scored more. Well, I guess that argument works every time.

I agree, we needed our offense to score when they had the chance. I'm not arguing that. However, if the defense did its job yesterday that would be a moot point. So, the defense didn't do its job and it's the offense's responsibility to bail them out. They didn't, and it's their fault we lost the game? Where's the logic?

Re: The main reason the Skins lost to the Eagles?
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;377345]Let me say again: the previous games don't matter. They're irrelevant regarding this argument.

The defense had far more than two chances to stop Philly from scoring, and they didn't. Why do you ignore that? We were missing tackles left and right, from Brian Westbrook -- probably the smallest back in the league. We'd get to him, but he'd break our arm tackles. But, I guess you're right: that wasn't the defense's fault. :doh:

Would you agree that it's unreasonable to demand 50 points from your offense every game? I would. It's unreasonable because of the probability that it happens is very low. That is why the numbers are important. You are demanding something unreasonable from the offense.

The defense, on the other hand, gave up 33 points yesterday. The worst defense in the league gives up 29 points on average.[/quote]

I think you lost me at "Hi". Are you a math major ?

Re: The main reason the Skins lost to the Eagles?
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;377344]I'm a staunch Gibbs supporter, but these clock management issues definitely need to get worked out. I was pounding my fist on the bar when we took our second timeout. Gibbs gets a pass for the challenge, but we seriously need to find a new guy up in the booth. We've got to have one of the worst success rates on challenges in the league.[/quote]

There seemed to be clock mgmt. issues across the league yesterday. Look at Dungy last night burning his last time out to talk to the refs about that illegal shift they got flagged on. Not trying to justify our issues, just saying that it's not exclusive to us.

Re: The main reason the Skins lost to the Eagles?
 

[quote=warriorzpath;377349]What are you talking about - "the previous games don't matter". [/quote]Read the title of the thread.

Now go back and answer your own question.

Re: The main reason the Skins lost to the Eagles?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;377359]There seemed to be clock mgmt. issues across the league yesterday. Look at Dungy last night burning his last time out to talk to the refs about that illegal shift they got flagged on. Not trying to justify our issues, just saying that it's not exclusive to us.[/quote]Poor clock management is rampant throughout the league. Some staffs just manage the clock better than others.

The fact that the teams that do really don't win any more often than the teams that don't has lead me to the point that clock management is very overrated.

Re: The main reason the Skins lost to the Eagles?
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;377356]I am using the cumulative stats from previous games around the league as a way to measure the performance of the offense and defense yesterday. What are you using to measure their performance? You are just saying they should have scored more. Well, I guess that argument works every time.

I agree, we needed our offense to score when they had the chance. I'm not arguing that. However, if the defense did its job yesterday that would be a moot point. So, the defense didn't do its job and it's the offense's responsibility to bail them out. They didn't, and it's their fault we lost the game? Where's the logic?[/quote]

Let me try that - the probability of the team that scores with the majority of the total points at the completion of one regulation game will be 100%.

Re: The main reason the Skins lost to the Eagles?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;377362]Read the title of the thread.

Now go back and answer your own question.[/quote]


Now read the rest of my post and what I replied to.

Re: The main reason the Skins lost to the Eagles?
 

[quote=warriorzpath;377358]I think you lost me at "Hi". Are you a math major ?[/quote]It's OK to concede a point. You don't have to act like you are lost.

The defense has bailed out the offense on many other occasions this year, but they lost us the game yesterday.

The offense doesn't owe the defense anything. You can't make that argument.

Re: The main reason the Skins lost to the Eagles?
 

[QUOTE=warriorzpath;377366]Let me try that - the probability of the team that scores with the majority of the total points at the completion of one regulation game will be 100%.[/QUOTE]

Unless you can form a reasonable argument, with something to support it, I'm done arguing. I've made my point, and you refuse to bring an intelligent argument. You haven't attacked ANY of the points I've made in my posts. You just ignore them, and keep repeating, "score more points, blah, blah, blah." That's totally worthless.

Re: The main reason the Skins lost to the Eagles?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;377374]It's OK to concede a point. You don't have to act like you are lost.

The defense has bailed out the offense on many other occasions this year, but they lost us the game yesterday.

The offense doesn't owe the defense anything. You can't make that argument.[/quote]

"Act like" - did you follow or even try to follow his logic? No matter how good it was, it just wasn't presented well. And that's being nice.

Re: The main reason the Skins lost to the Eagles?
 

The offense did enough yesterday to come away with the W.

Sorry, but the D blew it with countless DUMB penalties and a couple of back breaking big plays.

Re: The main reason the Skins lost to the Eagles?
 

[QUOTE=warriorzpath;377377]"Act like" - did you follow or even try to follow his logic? No matter how good it was, it just wasn't presented well. And that's being nice.[/QUOTE]

GTripp is the stats master. I'm pretty sure he understands what I was getting at.

Re: The main reason the Skins lost to the Eagles?
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;377376]Unless you can form a reasonable argument, with something to support it, I'm done arguing. I've made my point, and you refuse to bring an intelligent argument. You haven't attacked ANY of the points I've made in my posts. You just ignore them, and keep repeating, "score more points, blah, blah, blah." That's totally worthless.[/quote]

Just because you use stats and all that doesn't necessarily mean that your argument is intelligent.

Re: The main reason the Skins lost to the Eagles?
 

[quote=warriorzpath;377377]"Act like" - did you follow or even try to follow his logic? No matter how good it was, it just wasn't presented well. And that's being nice.[/quote]I thought it was incredibly straightforward and well presented.

Now I just realize that it's not really a difference of opinion, but it's just a chasm between your position and reality.

We're you one of the people who put everything on Brunell last year despite the 32nd ranked defense? If so, what does this defensive unit have to do to warrant criticism? Does London Fletcher have to commit armed robbery? They just didn't get the job done, or even close to done yesterday.

Re: The main reason the Skins lost to the Eagles?
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;377379]GTripp is the stats master. I'm pretty sure he understands what I was getting at.[/quote]Yep. Pretty much.

I'm sure you could have dug a lot deeper if you had wanted to, but the case you made seemed pretty solid to me as it was.

Re: The main reason the Skins lost to the Eagles?
 

Simma down now. I see this thread headed down the wrong path.

Re: The main reason the Skins lost to the Eagles?
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;377384]Simma down now. I see this thread headed down the wrong path.[/quote]I doubt it. Warriorzpath doesn't seem like the kind of guy who will attack people who disagree with him. I think he's dead wrong, but he's made his case civilly.

Re: The main reason the Skins lost to the Eagles?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;377382]I thought it was incredibly straightforward and well presented.

Now I just realize that it's not really a difference of opinion, but it's just a chasm between your position and reality.

We're you one of the people who put everything on Brunell last year despite the 32nd ranked defense? If so, what does this defensive unit have to do to warrant criticism? Does London Fletcher have to commit armed robbery? They just didn't get the job done, or even close to done yesterday.[/quote]

What the heck are you guys talking about? I already said the defense didn't play well - all that I am saying is the offense hasn't won any games for the redskins this whole season. What game have they won this season?

The expectations for defense and offense are just so out of wack. Sometimes a good offense is expected to win games when the defense is not playing well - especially if the game is close. The offense just haven't done that this season- one good chance was yesterday.

Re: The main reason the Skins lost to the Eagles?
 

[quote=warriorzpath;377380]Just because you use stats and all that doesn't necessarily mean that your argument is intelligent.[/quote]
Looking back at both arguments this is pretty much what I saw.

Our offense should have bailed us out and done better.
Argument : Just because

Counter-

Our offense scored 25 points. That is around 85th percentile in the league right now. You'll usually win those game.

Argument: Stats listing averages put the offensive success into perspective.

----------------------

I understand what your saying here Warrior, and it's frustrating. Your argument is that if we scored more points we would win. That's not what we're debating. We're debating why we lost yesterday, and quite frankly, I think our offense showed up. We ran well, we passed well, we scored points.

Blame penalties, special teams, and the defense here. To blame the offense with nothing to back it up is incorrect. Either agree to disagree, or bring more to your argument.

Re: The main reason the Skins lost to the Eagles?
 

[QUOTE=warriorzpath;377389]What the heck are you guys talking about? I already said the defense didn't play well - all that I am saying is the offense hasn't won any games for the redskins this whole season. What game have they won this season?

The expectations for defense and offense are just so out of wack. Sometimes a good offense is expected to win games when the defense is not playing well - especially if the game is close. The offense just haven't done that this season- one good chance was yesterday.[/QUOTE]

I agree. The offense has had chances to win games for us, and they didn't. The game against Green Bay is an example of that.

You're right, the expectations are unbalanced, but I think that has a lot to do with having a new QB. Expectations are usually low when a new QB comes in -- especially one with less than 16 games starting experience. I think it's reasonable for the expectations to be unbalanced.

Re: The main reason the Skins lost to the Eagles?
 

[quote=warriorzpath;377389]What the heck are you guys talking about? I already said the defense didn't play well - all that I am saying is the offense hasn't won any games for the redskins this whole season. What game have they won this season?

The expectations for defense and offense are just so out of wack. Sometimes a good offense is expected to win games when the defense is not playing well - especially if the game is close. The offense just haven't done that this season- one good chance was yesterday.[/quote]Well on the whole, the offense definitely has done a below average job this year. You are correct.

Thing is, you are arguing this in a thread about yesterday's game, and understandably so, you are on the same page with no one.

I wonder why.

Re: The main reason the Skins lost to the Eagles?
 

Inability to run for the tough yards, we can't run inside when teams are waiting for it, especially with a fly weight like Portis, we are not a smash mouth football team, but Gibbs does keep on trying, poor guy he just doesn't get it.

Re: The main reason the Skins lost to the Eagles?
 

[quote=RobH4413;377393]Looking back at both arguments this is pretty much what I saw.

Our offense should have bailed us out and done better.
Argument : Just because

Counter-

Our offense scored 25 points. That is around 85th percentile in the league right now. You'll usually win those game.

Argument: Stats listing averages put the offensive success into perspective.

----------------------

I understand what your saying here Warrior, and it's frustrating. Your argument is that if we scored more points we would win. That's not what we're debating. We're debating why we lost yesterday, and quite frankly, I think our offense showed up. We ran well, we passed well, we scored points.

Blame penalties, special teams, and the defense here. To blame the offense with nothing to back it up is incorrect. Either agree to disagree, or bring more to your argument.[/quote]

Actually, the offense scoring more is not really my point. My point, and I know I'm alone on this, is the offense blew it's chances of winning the game. Why do I think this?

The game is within reach and is for the taking with plenty of time left. What does the offense do ? Literally fumbles it's chances away. That's not what I call doing enough to win a game. I don't even want to dwell on the other mistakes that the offense made during the game that wasn't the defense's fault.

If you are okay with that, then I have nothing more to argue because I have a different perspective than you. I just think differently to let that slide and put the entire blame and responsibility on the defense - even if the offense is playing better (maybe moreso because of it).

Re: The main reason the Skins lost to the Eagles?
 

The penalties were huge, but the red zone playcalling was absolutely horrendus.

Re: The main reason the Skins lost to the Eagles?
 

When you are up by two points and a little over 5 minutes to go in the fourth quarter and you have a first down inside the five yard line, your offense has to find a way to score a touchdown. To me, that was the critical point in the game. The Redskin play calling was ultra-conservative, as if scoring a field goal was all that was needed. A five point lead with four minutes to go is not enough against Donovan McNabb and Brian Westbrook. These guys have historically killed the Skins in the past, you cannot give them a opportunity to beat you. A draw on 3rd and 7. Un-fu#king-believable.

Re: The main reason the Skins lost to the Eagles?
 

Everyone knew the D was supposed to be the strength of this team while the O has a young QB and would struggle. That means the D was supposed to do the heavy lifting, unfortunately they drop the ball when they need to step up.

They are an average D for an average team.

Re: The main reason the Skins lost to the Eagles?
 

[QUOTE=offiss;377400]Inability to run for the tough yards, we can't run inside when teams are waiting for it, especially with a fly weight like Portis, we are not a smash mouth football team, but Gibbs does keep on trying, poor guy he just doesn't get it.[/QUOTE]

Yup, we need to junk Portis. After all, Portis is just a change-of-pace 3rd down back. :smashfrea

Re: The main reason the Skins lost to the Eagles?
 

[QUOTE=irish;377444]Everyone knew the D was supposed to be the strength of this team while the O has a young QB and would struggle. That means the D was supposed to do the heavy lifting, unfortunately they drop the ball when they need to step up.

They are an average D for an average team.[/QUOTE]

The D is definitely starting to look less than formidable. The losses of Taylor, Washington, and Rogers and the nagging injuries to Griffin and Smoot don't help, but I didn't expect this kind of downturn. They could return to form, but things don't look as good as they did a few weeks ago.

Re: The main reason the Skins lost to the Eagles?
 

It's hard to tell, because all of them had their fair share. If we pass once or twice more on the stretch on the goal line, we win. If we don't make penalties, we get to have a chance on the D, and the defense played sub-standardly.

Re: The main reason the Skins lost to the Eagles?
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;377460]Yup, we need to junk Portis. After all, Portis is just a change-of-pace 3rd down back. :smashfrea[/quote]

Yep, a change of pace guy that's run for 333 yards the last 2 games and is 3rd in the league in rushing right now. Let's have a double :smashfrea :smashfrea for that.

Re: The main reason the Skins lost to the Eagles?
 

[quote=sandtrapjack;377130]If it were ONLY this one game I would say the defensive penalties that extended drives for the Eagles which resulted in scores.

But that is only the surface issue. The real problem (and I hate to point this out) is dating back to last season it is something like 7 out of 9 last games where Washington had the lead at halftime, they ended up losing those games.

Is it halftime adjustments? Possibly. But there is a definite problem when you are leading at halftime of so many games and do not win those games.

As a caveat I would say the organization has to take a more proactive approach to conditioning as well. There are just way too many injuries for it to be "just bad luck". A player who is conditioned properly greatly reduces the risk of injury due to conditioning. I am not saying the team is out of shape. But with so many injuries, the conditioning program needs to be re-evaluated to see what can be done to reduce those nagging injuries that cost playing time.[/quote]

all the cowboy fans ive seen on here keep it cool and dont go running their mouths but man i really dont feel like seeing that dallas star right now . . . just like all those cowboy fans at sundays game. man i am PISSED THE F' OFF, the skins D was put in a position to hold the eagles and win the game and they didnt. period. nuff said.

no offense sandtrapjack, you come off as an intelligent mild mannered poster and i thank you for that but cowboy hating starts right now, right here. we are going to stomp the sh*t out of your boys for 4 quarters!

go skins!

Re: The main reason the Skins lost to the Eagles?
 

[QUOTE=warriorzpath;377341]Whatever, the offense doesn't play their plays in a vacuum - and the same for the defense. I don't want a math formula to figure out games. All I know was the offense had 2 chances at the end to win the game and didn't. There were already a few times this season that the defense stepped up - even in this game with the forced fumble. How do you throw a defense like that under the proverbial bus?

The expectations for the offense are so low and the defense too high. It's time for the offense to step up.[/QUOTE]

I thought I'd add that it's time for the coaches to step up, too.

Re: The main reason the Skins lost to the Eagles?
 

[quote=over the mountain;377737]no offense sandtrapjack, you come off as an intelligent mild mannered poster and i thank you for that but cowboy hating starts right now, right here. we are going to stomp the sh*t out of your boys for 4 quarters![/quote]I am not SandTrapJack, but none taken.

You guys do what you have to do and the Cowboys will do the same.

One thing though, try to enjoy the game of football. You and I are fans and there is not much we can do. Take it easy.

Re: The main reason the Skins lost to the Eagles?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;377715]Yep, a change of pace guy that's run for 333 yards the last 2 games and is 3rd in the league in rushing right now. Let's have a double :smashfrea :smashfrea for that.[/quote]

If he keeps it up, he'll take the rushing title this year.

How would THAT be for a F-U to the haters?!

Re: The main reason the Skins lost to the Eagles?
 

I gotta give it to Cooley's false start

Re: The main reason the Skins lost to the Eagles?
 

Well the d did not play that bad as people think. That last TD is hard to count against the D so they gave up 26 points. The O had several chances to score a TD which they did not and we gave up 1 point on special teams. The reason I say one is because if we made our extra point then we would have kicked the other extra point and the Eagles would have kick their extra point which = 1 point we lost. Which was the reason for us given up that extra TD and changed how we would have played the end of the game. When he missed that extra point I turned to my dad and said that is going to come back to haunt us and it did. I'm not blamming SS for missing it as it does happen to all kickers and he won last weeks game and the team should have carried him like he did last week.

Re: The main reason the Skins lost to the Eagles?
 

I said penalties, but losing Taylor was at least as critical. Our defense reverted to last year's form when he left the field.