Re: If Not Joe, Then Who?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;387691]I thought they played pretty well today. But his philosophy with his safety play just won't work. It's too easy for a team to hang around when a first down can be had at will. Use the safeties, get them up in the box at times and play football. Playing the way GW wants to play only works when you can eliminate big plays entirely. We only gave up one today, but that was one too many. Play more aggressively and you force more punts and turnovers. Then you can give up a big play every once in awhile and it won't totally cripple your team.[/quote]

I agree. And what was with Buffalo's slot receivers today? They absolutely had their way with us. I don't know if our corner depth is suffering b/c of injuries, but despite holding them to only 17 points, short passes out of the slot, pass rush, and run stop all left a lot to be desired today. But it's hard not give the D a pass today.

Re: If Not Joe, Then Who?
 

[QUOTE=Daseal;387699]Greg WIlliams is my first choice, he's fiery and I think we need that. I wouldn't be against bringing Grimm back either.[/QUOTE]

I'm torn on guys like Williams. Disciplinarians can do wonders for teams with talented, but careless players. But, they can also be run out of town on a rail if they start losing. Guys will put up with an a** if the team is winning, but when they fall upon hard times they seem to implode. Williams' last head coaching stint in Buffalo was not very good and, according to some, Williams was hated by many of his players and thought of as an arrogant $@#%. I like the idea of a fiery guy, but I'm not sure that Williams is our man.

Re: If Not Joe, Then Who?
 

[quote=GMScud;387706]I agree. And what was with Buffalo's slot receivers today? They absolutely had their way with us. I don't know if our corner depth is suffering b/c of injuries, but despite holding them to only 17 points, short passes out of the slot, pass rush, and run stop all left a lot to be desired today. But it's hard not give the D a pass today.[/quote]When Sean Taylor was back there, we didn't give up more than maybe a single big play all year.

Okay, so now...you make an adjustment. Bring the safeties up, lets go! You aren't going to stop bad things from happening to your defense. At least [B]try[/B] to shut down the opposing offense.

Re: If Not Joe, Then Who?
 

[QUOTE=Warrior1971;387609]I would want to see Bill Cower come online, I feel we are a player or two away from having a dominant team with the right kind of motivating coach. I feel Bill can fill that void. He has a great history of finding talent in the draft as well. If not Bill.....well I would rather see Russ Grimm come home than to give either of our coordinators a shot at HC.[/QUOTE]

im with you warrior..we are in my eyes a dominant reciever and pass rusher away from pay dirt. Jason Campbell is putting up huge numbers but when we get into the red zone we cant score. Yes the line isnt healthy but with Cowher and his smash mouth ways i think we can become a better red zone team. Were only about 20 points away from having 4 more wins compared to 4 of the games we lost. the problem is lack of scoring once in the red zone. a dominant positions reciever....a great pass rusher to help a great secondary..and cowher to help with intensity and red zone scoring..

Re: If Not Joe, Then Who?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;387712]When Sean Taylor was back there, we didn't give up more than maybe a single big play all year.

Okay, so now...you make an adjustment. Bring the safeties up, lets go! You aren't going to stop bad things from happening to your defense. At least [B]try[/B] to shut down the opposing offense.[/quote]

I agree. Let 'em pin their ears back. It worked in 2004.

Re: If Not Joe, Then Who?
 

[quote=GMScud;387611][B]Overall head coaches who act as GMs haven't had a ton of success in the league.[/B] Cowher was never a GM or team prez in Pittsburgh and had a great run there. If ain't broke, why try to fix it? I understand the idea of trying to set higher goals and achieve more, but I think he may be setting himself up for failure if he wants complete control.

Wouldn't it seem a little silly to hire another retired coach with a Super Bowl ring(s) who had never been a personnel man before and expect him to excel in both roles?[/quote]

GM Scud has identified the biggest problem at Redskin Park. Listen, ever since Synder has purchased the team the one constant at Redskin Park during his tenure is not having a seperate GM from the head coach except when he fired Casserly in the beginning of his tenure. With every other avenue been tried why not give this one a try for once?

Re: If Not Joe, Then Who?
 

GW should be the HC. Why would we want BC and why would he want to come here? BC is going to bring in his own people so that means a total turnover in staff. We are not that far off. The BC talk is just silly.

Re: If Not Joe, Then Who?
 

Gibbs or Grimm, there's no other choice. You'll be sorry!! What makes people think Cowher II or Williams II would be more successful than Gibbs II? And yes, a GM would help tremendously, get the guy from Chicago (Bobby DePaul) who was with the Redskins before he bolted for the Bears. That's my opinion.

Re: If Not Joe, Then Who?
 

Honestly, I think any of the potential coaches listed would be an improvement. I could list about a half dozen reasons why but it would only instigate a pissing match and I don't want that. Here are just a few ideas along other lines:

- Williams is my least favorite potential coach. I don't know exactly what it is but this guy is so strange. Listening to him talk on RedskinsTV I just can't see Williams establishing a strong rapport w/ any player. Maybe he is too much into himself, I'm not sure.

- I think Marty, if he wants to still coach, should be considered a contender. I know his playoff record sucks but when the playoffs seem like a miracle for us I'll take Marty any day of the week. He didn't enough time with us first time around IMO.

- Cowher will take the long term approach and build a team from the ground up, which is what it takes to really be a contender anyway, so he is probably the very best option all things consider. If he is coach next year I'll be excited again about football.

Re: If Not Joe, Then Who?
 

[QUOTE=MTRedskinsFan;387785]Cowher will take the long term approach and build a team from the ground up, which is what it takes to really be a contender anyway, so he is probably the very best option all things consider. If he is coach next year I'll be excited again about football.[/QUOTE]

Problem is "long term approach" isn't really understood by most Redskins fans. I mean we've already got people saying we'll never win with Campbell and should unload him

Re: If Not Joe, Then Who?
 

Cowher is the worst coach to ever win a SB (still makes him a hell of a lot better than Norv though). He's fun and intense and if wasn't for the Rooney family loyalty he never would have lasted long enough to win the SB. If you go out on top you are always believed to be genius (Bill Walsh). If you try to recreate magic elsewhere you are remembered as an idiot (George Seifert).
Please no Cowher. Saunders failed so miserably in San Diego I think he should stay coordinator. Grimm deserves the chance to build his own team not manage the one Gibbs has built (and no I don't think the whole team should be dumped and start over. We are too close for that now). Let Blache move into the more traditional DC role and call plays while GW takes over for Gibbs who would make a great president if that is what he wants.

Re: If Not Joe, Then Who?
 

Cowher or Grimm,either one would be fine by me

Re: If Not Joe, Then Who?
 

I would be up for replacing Bugel with Grimm and having him on the wings. Another reason to dislike Cowher is that he's a Marty disciple.

Re: If Not Joe, Then Who?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;387786]Problem is "long term approach" isn't really understood by most Redskins fans. I mean we've already got people saying we'll never win with Campbell and should unload him[/quote]
Good point but long term is only acceptable in New England. The other 31 teams want win now and if we don't blow it up and start again. Ask the Lions how blowitup with a new coach every other year is working.

Re: If Not Joe, Then Who?
 

I'm going with 'other' but I don't have an option to name. None of the ones mentioned are appealing options to me.. Cowher isn't coming back next year.. GW just doesn't do it for me-he's as culpable as Gibbs if not more for the 5 this year and 15 overall 2nd half lost leads.. I still believe in Saunders as OC but not as a head coach.. Call me crazy, but he needs autonomy to call his gameplan..

Ok, flame retardant suit is on.. With our talent, give me Saunders calling the offense and a young aggressive defensive minded head coach (see Mike Tomlin) to set the tone for the team..

Re: If Not Joe, Then Who?
 

[QUOTE=MTRedskinsFan;387785]Honestly, I think any of the potential coaches listed would be an improvement. I could list about a half dozen reasons why but it would only instigate a pissing match and I don't want that. Here are just a few ideas along other lines:

- Williams is my least favorite potential coach. I don't know exactly what it is but this guy is so strange. Listening to him talk on RedskinsTV I just can't see Williams establishing a strong rapport w/ any player. Maybe he is too much into himself, I'm not sure.

[b] - I think Marty, if he wants to still coach, should be considered a contender. I know his playoff record sucks but when the playoffs seem like a miracle for us I'll take Marty any day of the week. He didn't enough time with us first time around IMO.[/b]

- Cowher will take the long term approach and build a team from the ground up, which is what it takes to really be a contender anyway, so he is probably the very best option all things consider. If he is coach next year I'll be excited again about football.[/QUOTE]
Damn, if we are tough on Gibbs 2.o, what would Marty 2.0 look like?

Re: If Not Joe, Then Who?
 

[QUOTE=Paintrain;387798]I'm going with 'other' but I don't have an option to name. None of the ones mentioned are appealing options to me.. Cowher isn't coming back next year.. GW just doesn't do it for me-he's as culpable as Gibbs if not more for the 5 this year and 15 overall 2nd half lost leads.. I still believe in Saunders as OC but not as a head coach.. Call me crazy, but he needs autonomy to call his gameplan..

Ok, flame retardant suit is on.. With our talent, give me Saunders calling the offense and a young aggressive defensive minded head coach (see Mike Tomlin) to set the tone for the team..[/QUOTE]

Good post. I've been looking for that "other guy" who resembles Tomlin but haven't come up w/ didley squat. For that matter, who knew Tomlin could do what he's done. Maybe there is another real strong character guy out there just waiting for the opportunity to shine.

Re: If Not Joe, Then Who?
 

Let's grant Joe the option of finishing his contract, if he so chooses. He's the one who truly believes in Jason, commands the respect of every player and has brought respectability back to the franchise in terms of attracting free agents and not sacrificing draft picks. Granted, some of his FAs have been busts and most picks have yet to make an impact. This doesn't mean you jump ship and overhaul, when there is a committed, determined HC with a plan in place. Many fans will argue Gibbs' coaching hasn't solved very much the last few seasons, but that's evidenced only in the fine print of the W/L record. What Joe has done is brought in the pieces necessary to play his style of ball: power running. Whether or not Portis epitomizes the hard-nosed grunt of a back Gibbs prefers is up for debate, but the other cogs of the offense, such as the big offensive line (when healthy), Cooley, the short-to-medium yardage possession tight end, and Sellers, the bowling ball fullback, certainly were meant to support a running philosophy. It was thought that Brunell would have enough of an arm to toss it deep to what are, let's face it, little more than downfield-only threat Moss, and that Campbell now would continue to fill that role, but in a much more lively and effective way than Brunell.

I think the "boogeyman" on the coaching squad is Saunders. If you take into account the makeup of this team, which lacks explosive playmakers and improvisational open-field players, Saunders is not a good fit. I think when Gibbs addresses the matter of whether or not the Skins are capable of making a big play, he has to insist "yes, they are" in a nod to Saunders (Joe wouldn't really want to publicly ruffle the feathers of a millionaire assistant, now would he?). Yes, Joe makes the crucial decisions during games, but is it him who calls the offensive plays anymore? No. Everyone has been remarking it is Gibbs' conservative play-calling that has been the albatross of the offense, but when you are equipped with players that are manufactured to run hard and run often, how does a team put up big stats and blow away opponents?

In summary, it's one or the other that needs to go: Gibbs and his preferred offensive players, or Saunders and his preferred, but as yet unrealized, explosive, speedy playmakers. It would be a lot easier for the Skins to stick with Gibbs and the current cast of characters (with some rushing attack-oriented picks in the '08 draft and free agent signings of a similar nature) for next season than to let Saunders or a new coach take over, which would require an offensive overhaul consistent with the philosophy of that new leader. This is not excusing the lapses in discipline among the players and frequent poor judgment by Gibbs in his second stint; rather, it is talking straight about what this team was designed to do, and why it is failing at the present (thanks Saunders).

Re: If Not Joe, Then Who?
 

[QUOTE=Paintrain;387798]I'm going with 'other' but I don't have an option to name. None of the ones mentioned are appealing options to me.. Cowher isn't coming back next year.. GW just doesn't do it for me-he's as culpable as Gibbs if not more for the 5 this year and 15 overall 2nd half lost leads.. I still believe in Saunders as OC but not as a head coach.. Call me crazy, but he needs autonomy to call his gameplan..

Ok, flame retardant suit is on.. With our talent, give me Saunders calling the offense and a young aggressive defensive minded head coach (see Mike Tomlin) to set the tone for the team..[/QUOTE]

Well if we really want to take a chance, how about Titans' DC Jim Schwartz? He's young, yet he's coached for nearly a decade in the NFL. And he has local ties (played at Georgetown, coached at Maryland)

Re: If Not Joe, Then Who?
 

[QUOTE=MTRedskinsFan;387808]Good post. I've been looking for that "other guy" who resembles Tomlin but haven't come up w/ didley squat. For that matter, who knew Tomlin could do what he's done. Maybe there is another real strong character guy out there just waiting for the opportunity to shine.[/QUOTE]

Garrett in Dallas, NE offensive co-ordinator, Buffalo OC, Butch Davis, Charlie Weiss.

Re: If Not Joe, Then Who?
 

[QUOTE=Rock31;387818]Let's grant Joe the option of finishing his contract, if he so chooses. He's the one who truly believes in Jason, commands the respect of every player and has brought respectability back to the franchise in terms of attracting free agents and not sacrificing draft picks. Granted, some of his FAs have been busts and most picks have yet to make an impact. This doesn't mean you jump ship and overhaul, when there is a committed, determined HC with a plan in place. Many fans will argue Gibbs' coaching hasn't solved very much the last few seasons, but that's evidenced only in the fine print of the W/L record. What Joe has done is brought in the pieces necessary to play his style of ball: power running. Whether or not Portis epitomizes the hard-nosed grunt of a back Gibbs prefers is up for debate, but the other cogs of the offense, such as the big offensive line (when healthy), Cooley, the short-to-medium yardage possession tight end, and Sellers, the bowling ball fullback, certainly were meant to support a running philosophy. It was thought that Brunell would have enough of an arm to toss it deep to what are, let's face it, little more than downfield-only threat Moss, and that Campbell now would continue to fill that role, but in a much more lively and effective way than Brunell.

I think the "boogeyman" on the coaching squad is Saunders. If you take into account the makeup of this team, which lacks explosive playmakers and improvisational open-field players, Saunders is not a good fit. I think when Gibbs addresses the matter of whether or not the Skins are capable of making a big play, he has to insist "yes, they are" in a nod to Saunders (Joe wouldn't really want to publicly ruffle the feathers of a millionaire assistant, now would he?). Yes, Joe makes the crucial decisions during games, but is it him who calls the offensive plays anymore? No. Everyone has been remarking it is Gibbs' conservative play-calling that has been the albatross of the offense, but when you are equipped with players that are manufactured to run hard and run often, how does a team put up big stats and blow away opponents?

In summary, it's one or the other that needs to go: Gibbs and his preferred offensive players, or Saunders and his preferred, but as yet unrealized, explosive, speedy playmakers. It would be a lot easier for the Skins to stick with Gibbs and the current cast of characters (with some rushing attack-oriented picks in the '08 draft and free agent signings of a similar nature) for next season than to let Saunders or a new coach take over, which would require an offensive overhaul consistent with the philosophy of that new leader. This is not excusing the lapses in discipline among the players and frequent poor judgment by Gibbs in his second stint; rather, it is talking straight about what this team was designed to do, and why it is failing at the present (thanks Saunders).[/QUOTE]

Good post, but the question in this thread is asking you to just assume that Gibbs won't return. Not whether or not he should

Re: If Not Joe, Then Who?
 

[QUOTE=Rock31;387818]Let's grant Joe the option of finishing his contract, if he so chooses. He's the one who truly believes in Jason, commands the respect of every player and has brought respectability back to the franchise in terms of attracting free agents and not sacrificing draft picks. Granted, some of his FAs have been busts and most picks have yet to make an impact. This doesn't mean you jump ship and overhaul, when there is a committed, determined HC with a plan in place. Many fans will argue Gibbs' coaching hasn't solved very much the last few seasons, but that's evidenced only in the fine print of the W/L record. What Joe has done is brought in the pieces necessary to play his style of ball: power running. Whether or not Portis epitomizes the hard-nosed grunt of a back Gibbs prefers is up for debate, but the other cogs of the offense, such as the big offensive line (when healthy), Cooley, the short-to-medium yardage possession tight end, and Sellers, the bowling ball fullback, certainly were meant to support a running philosophy. It was thought that Brunell would have enough of an arm to toss it deep to what are, let's face it, little more than downfield-only threat Moss, and that Campbell now would continue to fill that role, but in a much more lively and effective way than Brunell.

I think the "boogeyman" on the coaching squad is Saunders. If you take into account the makeup of this team, which lacks explosive playmakers and improvisational open-field players, Saunders is not a good fit. I think when Gibbs addresses the matter of whether or not the Skins are capable of making a big play, he has to insist "yes, they are" in a nod to Saunders (Joe wouldn't really want to publicly ruffle the feathers of a millionaire assistant, now would he?). Yes, Joe makes the crucial decisions during games, but is it him who calls the offensive plays anymore? No. Everyone has been remarking it is Gibbs' conservative play-calling that has been the albatross of the offense, but when you are equipped with players that are manufactured to run hard and run often, how does a team put up big stats and blow away opponents?

In summary, it's one or the other that needs to go: Gibbs and his preferred offensive players, or Saunders and his preferred, but as yet unrealized, explosive, speedy playmakers. It would be a lot easier for the Skins to stick with Gibbs and the current cast of characters (with some rushing attack-oriented picks in the '08 draft and free agent signings of a similar nature) for next season than to let Saunders or a new coach take over, which would require an offensive overhaul consistent with the philosophy of that new leader. This is not excusing the lapses in discipline among the players and frequent poor judgment by Gibbs in his second stint; rather, it is talking straight about what this team was designed to do, and why it is failing at the present (thanks Saunders).[/QUOTE]

Good post!! I think bringing in Grimm to replace Bugel would help also.

Re: If Not Joe, Then Who?
 

After this week, my heart says Gregg Williams or maybe Coach Joe will stay. History has me leaning toward Russ Grimm. But logic tells me Cowher is the guy.

Re: If Not Joe, Then Who?
 

Absolutely. Bring in Grimm to help or run the O.

Sorry for misplacing my previous post.

Re: If Not Joe, Then Who?
 

after ten years of failure Snyder will finally organize the Skins like every other franchise, hire a GM and learn the hard way why this model is necessary for success...at our expense. I'd like to see a [B]Russ Grimm[/B]/ Floyd Reese combo or maybe some GM candidate in the Patriots organization.

Re: If Not Joe, Then Who?
 

I think that if Gibbs goes, then Williams should be the HC and he should be allowed to hire his own offensive coordinator. I believe that if Saunders is allowed to stay he will sabotage the team in order to eventually get the job himself. Whoever they hire should not be saddled with Saunders, IMO. Did I mention that I don't care for Al Saunders?

Maybe Charlie Weiss would be available? Notre Dame can't not fire him after they fired Willingham. They guy lost to Navy for God's sake. Of course,the polish is off Weiss a little considering what N.E. is doing now. They're setting records and their offensive coordinator looks like he rode to the stadium on his skateboard.

Re: If Not Joe, Then Who?
 

[quote=BugelDisciple;387989]after ten years of failure Snyder will finally organize the Skins like every other franchise, hire a GM and learn the hard way why this model is necessary for success...at our expense. I'd like to see a [B]Russ Grimm[/B]/ Floyd Reese combo or maybe some GM candidate in the Patriots organization.[/quote]


Dallas doesn't have a G.M and they're 11-1. Hell, they don't really even have a head coach. They've got an owner, a head cheerleader, and an offensive coordinator.

Re: If Not Joe, Then Who?
 

I hate to say it, but the Joe Gibbs part II needs to be over. I love Joe Gibbs to death, but he and his current organization is not getting the job done. The coaching staff is consistently making bad decisions and losing games that are there for the taking. I think Greg Williams will be the next head coach. I hope he gets a whole new staff. The Redskins need to overhaul the entire organization. The philosophy of buying high priced free agents and trading away draft picks need to cease. I would rather see the Skins take there lumps for a couple of years and build through the draft. Quick fixes has not worked.

Re: If Not Joe, Then Who?
 

I say Cowher because I feel like his system is very similar to that of Gibbs. I think we are really close to being a good, playoff team. If we start over with a new coach, it could take YEARS to recover.

Re: If Not Joe, Then Who?
 

cowher, hands down. has won at this level. and is up to date on coaching/ player management in today's game. i don't want Greg Williams running the show. i like Russ Grimm before Greg Williams

Re: If Not Joe, Then Who?
 

After 2 timeouts yesterday I no longer feel guilty about wanting Joe Gibbs to go into permanent retirement. That is inexcusable.

Cowher would be the worst choice. He would have the same problem that I think keeps Gibbs from being successful. He's already been to the mountain. We need someone who is hungry who hasn't won it all.

Russ Grimm is the best choice but for continuity I think Gregg Williams. Saunders offense would be much better with Gibbs out of the picture.

Re: If Not Joe, Then Who?
 

Honestly, I don't think it would matter who we got as coach provided the core of the coaching staff remains the same.

I don't think it's the coaching so much as it's the execution. Sure, Gibbs made a FATAL mistake that almost any other coach in this league wouldn't make, but it wasn't him blocking, it wasn't him putting balls on the ground.

We have the talent, the execution is lacking and honestly I think we could have a figure head as coach next year and if we let Williams and Saunders run the show, we'd still have a good team.

Re: If Not Joe, Then Who?
 

First off I think Gibbs will be back for year 5.

Beyond that I would put my money on Williams getting a shot.

Re: If Not Joe, Then Who?
 

Oh please no not Gibbs for year 5. He lacks the passion and motivational skills for this team. It breaks my heart that he couldn't succeed 2nd time around as I was so excited when he came back but let's face reality. This has been 4 years now. His record:

Yr 1 = 6-10
Yr 2 = 10-6
Yr 3 = 5-11
Yr 4 --- currently 5-7 on our way to 7-9 at best. We'll win the Cowboy game because they won't play anyone but after that one all bets are off.

Re: If Not Joe, Then Who?
 

I hope Gibbs comes back next year to prove everyone wrong. Is not his fault that he has a monumental # of injuries at critical times this season, it is his fault that he made a blunder yesterday (who wouldn't after a week like he had). The changes I would like to see are, as much as I love Bugel it's time for him to retire and pass the reins to Grimm (Skins should hire him and give him whatever title to get him in here) I would like the Skins to rehire our old trainer Dan Riley (now with the Texans) and get rid of our current one.

Re: If Not Joe, Then Who?
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;388119]I hope Gibbs comes back next year to prove everyone wrong. Is not his fault that he has a monumental # of injuries at critical times this season, it is his fault that he made a blunder yesterday (who wouldn't after a week like he had). The changes I would like to see are, as much as I love Bugel it's time for him to retire and pass the reins to Grimm (Skins should hire him and give him whatever title to get him in here) I would like the Skins to rehire our old trainer Dan Riley (now with the Texans) and get rid of our current one.[/quote]
I have backed JG all the way but I'm starting to think its time for a change. I was not upset at timeout call as much as I was for his calls on our last series. We could not run the ball and they ran 3 time and all we needed was one 1st down. People can make the argument that JC has cost us some game with untimely picks but you have to go for 1st down when the game is on the line.

Re: If Not Joe, Then Who?
 

[quote=djdunick;388106]Oh please no not Gibbs for year 5. He lacks the passion and motivational skills for this team. It breaks my heart that he couldn't succeed 2nd time around as I was so excited when he came back but let's face reality. This has been 4 years now. His record:

Yr 1 = 6-10
Yr 2 = 10-6
Yr 3 = 5-11
Yr 4 --- currently 5-7 on our way to 7-9 at best. We'll win the Cowboy game because they won't play anyone but after that one all bets are off.[/quote]


After that one? That's the last game of the year.

Re: If Not Joe, Then Who?
 

you have no faith in your coach... dont call yourself a fan

Re: If Not Joe, Then Who?
 

[QUOTE=firstdown;388137]I have backed JG all the way but I'm starting to think its time for a change. I was not upset at timeout call as much as I was for his calls on our last series. We could not run the ball and they ran 3 time and all we needed was one 1st down. People can make the argument that JC has cost us some game with untimely picks but you have to go for 1st down when the game is on the line.[/QUOTE]

So you're saying Saunders doesn't call the plays then

Re: If Not Joe, Then Who?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;388145]So you're saying Saunders doesn't call the plays then[/quote]


Saunders calls the plays that work. Gibbs calls the ones that don't. Haven't you figured that out yet? Nice sig by the way.