Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?
 

[quote=70Chip;389562]No. What I am describing is an attitude among the fans that it's never the fault of the players. Why should they care how they play when they know that they can turn the ball over 6 times and people will still spend the whole week talking about Gibbs decision to go for it on 4th and 1? For that matter, why should they care wether or not they even get the 4th and 1? We can have all these Fire Gibbs! threads, they are unavoidable. What boggles my mind is why there aren't an equal number of threads directed at players. There are people in here still defending Brandon Lloyd, for crying out loud.

Also, he cut Walter Rasby mid-season in 2004.[/quote]
I think just about everyplayer on this team has had a bash them thread except for I think Cooley. The problem is we have ran out of players to bash and now its falling on the coaching staff and most of all Timeout, Timeout Gibbs. Sorry I had to do that.

Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;389559]That's the point Stacks, he doesn't really have to do anything for us. He just has to guide the team, keep them on the right track, and let the players do the winning.

The cold hard facts are that in our injured state, we've played one of the three toughest schedules in the league. While we missed a few crucial chances to turn 5-7 into 7-5 with average luck (or even better than 7-5 with great fortune), you can't say we haven't played at least 7 games where we were outtalented. Think about it: Philadelphia twice, Dallas, New England, Tampa, Green Bay, and arguably the Giants. When the team is beset by injuries and mediocre overall talent, then the expectation for winning is tampered.

To all but you apparently.[/quote]

while the coaches can't really be held accountable for injuries (though some suggest they should be, to a degree) I would argue that dead cap space spent on players on Gibbs' wish list aren't helping the situation...

I also do not believe that on an individual level we are less talented than the Bucs and Phili. The Packers are good, but i think they are just playing great as a team, less an individual thing...we have more talent.
the giants have talent, and I'd probably put us on even level with them talent wise..they have better D-lineman for sure though.

Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?
 

[QUOTE=firstdown;389572]I think just about everyplayer on this team has had a bash them thread except for I think Cooley. The problem is we have ran out of players to bash and now its falling on the coaching staff and most of all Timeout, Timeout Gibbs. Sorry I had to do that.[/QUOTE]

No you didn't. And I really don't think we "bash" players nearly enough. We don't even "bash" the other coaches. But hey, it is what it is. I hope to one day be as successful as Gibbs has been in his career so everyone can try to knock me down as well.

Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?
 

firstdown - Antonio Brown, and he was brought back and was a key during that stretch in '05 (91 yard kickoff return for TD against Cards in Week 14)

As far as Gibbs is concerned, he has a 5 year contract, let him honor that.

As far as the players are concerned, I think it's a 2 way street. Execution has certainly been lacking this year (5 4th quarter leads blown). However, it's the coaches that prepare the players to execute their plays. And while it is up to the players on game day to execute, it's up to the coaches to make sure these guys are able to execute 100% of the time. There is something amiss between the coaches and players...

Or is it amiss between one coach and another? Where in this dysfunctional relationship between Gibbs and Saunders is there a leak? It's quite obvious that Saunders is an offensive genius, considering the success he had with the Rams and Chiefs. It's also quite obvious that Gibbs 1.0 had a very successful offense. I know they say Gibbs is hands off when it comes to the offense, and Saunders has been quoted as playing conservative because of the defense's success. However, at what point do both of these men say it's time to open it up a bit? The Chiefs had the #1 offense with Eddie Kennison and Tony Gonzalez catching passes. There is no reason to not think the personnel the Skins have cannot have the same success. Are injuries to this team really that devastating?

There are so many factors that go into this whole process. The bottom line is looking forward to next year, will the fruits of their labor finally come to fruition. This team is extremely close to being successful (5-7 could easily be anywhere from 10-2 to 8-4 based on 4th quarter leads), will everything click next year? Or will another mediocre season come about, with Joe stepping aside, and another year or 2 of transition?

Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?
 

Everyone complains about the "last 4 years" Did Joe not take us to the playoffs his second year here? Did he win a playoff game against TB with an old QB? Ok, so we failed last season, this season so far is no better, but if you look at what this team has been through this year, you would understand and yes, I am using injuries as an excuse. I don't know if we'll make the playoffs this year, but I can guarantee you that if Joe comes back next year, they could go all the way. We need a dominant WR, DE, a few backup OL, DB, S. All this can be addressed thru the draft and free agency. Our WR's haven't been effective due to injury, Moss, ARE and Thrash have been injured all year and not been able to produce as they should, OL has been injured and in shambles. Tell me an NFL team with the # of key injuries that we had that would be able to win? The Colts have had some injuries and have struggled but not the # of injuries as us plus they have Peyton Manning. That's my rant.

Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?
 

[quote=BrunellMVP?;389573]while the coaches can't really be held accountable for injuries (though some suggest they should be, to a degree) I would argue that dead cap space spent on players on Gibbs' wish list aren't helping the situation...

I also do not believe that on an individual level we are less talented than the Bucs and Phili. The Packers are good, but i think they are just playing great as a team, less an individual thing...we have more talent.
the giants have talent, and I'd probably put us on even level with them talent wise..they have better D-lineman for sure though.[/quote]

I agree with you on this one. I think our talent level is better than both the Bucs and Philly. And not not that far behind, if at all, the Packers and the Giants.

Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?
 

IF Gibbs won't stop whacking the knees of our top players when they're not looking, throwing thumbtacks in the shower before Santana Moss gets in and putting butter on Campbell's warm-up footballs, then yes, he should be fired.

Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;389575]No you didn't. And I really don't think we "bash" players nearly enough. We don't even "bash" the other coaches. But hey, it is what it is. I hope to one day be as successful as Gibbs has been in his career so everyone can try to knock me down as well.[/quote]

What is the equivilant in your business of winning 3 Lombardis and (is it?) 3 cups?

Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?
 

[QUOTE=70Chip;389582]What is the equivilant in your business of winning 3 Lombardis and (is it?) 3 cups?[/QUOTE]

I have no idea

Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;389584]I have no idea[/quote]

142 Cable Ace Awards.

Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?
 

Early in his 2nd tenure, Gibbs' certainly made a bunch of personnel mistakes...and then he made some critical ones in the 2006 offseason, all of which led to the team lacking depth.

When I say "talent" I don't mean like combine measurables. I mean, total product based on the complete body of work from each team this year based on who they played. My fault on the confusion there, I could have been more clear.

The only positions we really have Philly at is quarterback, and probably linebacker. I'm not sure we have Tampa anywhere.

And then the other issue is of course the first half of this season we were playing with an entire quality of defensive talent different from what we are playing with now. Rogers and Taylor, Griffin was healthy and dominating, but has been slowed, and Montgomery has definately hit the hypothetical wall that comes with starting over a long season. All this has led to a massive regression in the middle of the field and on the edges, and basically we can't stop the run or the short passes, and recently we've had trouble making big plays.

Now we are playing with last year's defense and an offense that is well behind where it was in the Brunell-era (not that quarterback play is to blame for it. we've gotten pretty consistent QB play in the last 3 years). The running game is just so horrible, and Randy Thomas' return is just going to take Fabini off the field, who was doing a good job.

Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;389565]Ben Roethlisberger (4th season), Peyton Manning (5th season), Tony Romo (5th season), Drew Brees (6th season), all flourished under new coaching, but I see your point. My list of guys are considerably older than your list of guys.

Seems like there is something there that unestablished great QB prospects regress in a new offense in the short term, but in the long term they seem to be just fine.[/quote]

I'm not taking issue with your post, just building from it because it made me think a bit.

- Roethlisberger (Good point, especially with his struggles last season, but he had already won a Super Bowl)
- Manning (already had been to multiple Pro Bowls, well established)
- Romo (I hate that he is the exception to all these things, but after watching him play a little more now I actually kind of think that he is going to return to the pack since I've seen him make some really bad throws that still get completed, but we'll put him aside)
- Drew Brees (this is the one I want to pick up a bit below)

Brees is a different case since he changed teams and was a pretty big FA signing for NO and they were going to ride with him so long as he was healthy. By the time he signed there he'd throw for 3,000 yards three times and had made at least one Pro Bowl. I'd like to back up for a second, though, and look at Brees between his second and third seasons.

In 2002 Brees had numbers that probably look pretty similar to those Jason will end up posting this season (60.8%, 3,284 yds, 17 tds, 16 ints, 76.9 rtg). 2002 was also the first year that Marty was the coach in SD. The next season Brees did not play very well (57.6%, 2,108, 11 tds, 15 ints, 67.5 rtg). That year the Chargers drafted Eli and then moved him in that deal for Phillip Rivers. Now, if the team had also fired Marty and moved in a new direction totally, what would have become of Brees? Of course, Rivers didn't help himself by holding out for the entire training camp and thus allowing Brees to claim the job, but I also wonder if another coaching staff that had not seen Brees perform in 2002, would have stuck with him through 2003 (and A.J. Smith basically bailed on him anyway with Rivers, who was his guy, while Marty seeming stayed behind Brees). As it turned out, in 2004 Brees posted his best numbers to that point (65.5%, 3,159, 27 tds, 7 ints, 104.8 rtg) and made his first Pro Bowl, but what if...

Your point that "Seems like there is something there that unestablished great QB prospects regress in a new offense in the short term, but in the long term they seem to be just fine" is well taken. The larger point, though, is that often times when you get a new coach the QB isn't given the opportunity to get to the point of being 'just fine' because the team moves on and fails to realize that the likely downturn in production is probably a product of having to learn a new offensive system and deal with a new coaching staff.

Just some thoughts.

Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;389586]Early in his 2nd tenure, Gibbs' certainly made a bunch of personnel mistakes...and then he made some critical ones in the 2006 offseason, all of which led to the team lacking depth.

When I say "talent" I don't mean like combine measurables. I mean, total product based on the complete body of work from each team this year based on who they played. My fault on the confusion there, I could have been more clear.

The only positions we really have Philly at is quarterback, and probably linebacker. I'm not sure we have Tampa anywhere.

And then the other issue is of course the first half of this season we were playing with an entire quality of defensive talent different from what we are playing with now. Rogers and Taylor, Griffin was healthy and dominating, but has been slowed, and Montgomery has definately hit the hypothetical wall that comes with starting over a long season. All this has led to a massive regression in the middle of the field and on the edges, and basically we can't stop the run or the short passes, and recently we've had trouble making big plays.

Now we are playing with last year's defense and an offense that is well behind where it was in the Brunell-era (not that quarterback play is to blame for it. we've gotten pretty consistent QB play in the last 3 years). The running game is just so horrible, and Randy Thomas' return is just going to take Fabini off the field, who was doing a good job.[/quote]

Tampa? Sure Campbell is better than Gradkowski. Well, at least that's who played against us. And Tampa is down to, what, their third running back. Point being, they too have injuries to cope with. Outside of Galloway, who's the real recieving threat down there? You'd be grasping at straws to say they're more talented at than we are at TE and WR.

See, the real question really isn't who's more talented anyway. It's who get's more production out of what they have?

Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?
 

Before anyone, including the Danny, evaluates Gibbs II, you must differentiate between his two stints. In his first, he was just head coach. Now, he is head coach/team prez., a role he has never done before in football.

When I look at Gibbs II I would sum it up as:

1) clearly not the HOF coach of past, mainly due to clock mgmt & game time decisions, but has brought success w/the playoffs in 05.

2) As a team pres. & talent evaluator; Gibbs has laid the foundation for a decent team & seems to have impacted the Danny in some ways. We have a future qb & some youth on defense. Obviously there are holes to fill. On the other hand under Gibbs some terrible personel/salary cap decisions were made.

Is this Gibbs' learning curve or is this something beyond his control that he's willing (or under contract obligated) to take the heat for? Who is repsonsible for AA, B Loyd & the very notion that we could buy some free agents & get to the super bowl?

It seems Gibbs, based on his past & what's happened in Gibbs II, has always believed in free agency as a means of building a team. However, I'm inclined to believe that he's learned to be cautious w/this approach in today's game. Too bad it took 3 years to learn, but I believe he can leave the team w/a philosophical direction to build on.

In sum, Gibbs is not the coach he once was but can still win. He earns a solid C at best at this point as team president. In all fairness to his legacy, this was a new job for him & he took over a tough one w/the Danny & Vinny used to doing it Danny's way.

He deserves criticism but he also deserves another year & the chance to transition this team into the future. MUch like Parcells did in Dallas, we may see Gibbs' success as team president come after he's retired. For now, give all your support to Joe Gibbs!

Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?
 

[quote=12thMan;389589]Tampa? Sure Campbell is better than Gradkowski. Well, at least that's who played against us. And Tampa is down to, what, their third running back. Point being, they too have injuries to cope with. Outside of Galloway, who's the real recieving threat down there? You'd be grasping at straws to say they're more talented at than we are at TE and WR.

See, the real question really isn't who's more talented anyway. It's who get's more production out of what they have?[/quote]TE...no. WR, yes they are.

To me, talent and production are one in the same. I use the words interchanably. After all, it doesn't matter how much physical skill you have, your football SKILL will never exceed your production.

Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;389579]Everyone complains about the "last 4 years" Did Joe not take us to the playoffs his second year here? Did he win a playoff game against TB with an old QB? Ok, so we failed last season, this season so far is no better, but if you look at what this team has been through this year, you would understand and yes, I am using injuries as an excuse. I don't know if we'll make the playoffs this year, but I can guarantee you that if Joe comes back next year, they could go all the way. We need a dominant WR, DE, a few backup OL, DB, S. All this can be addressed thru the draft and free agency. Our WR's haven't been effective due to injury, Moss, ARE and Thrash have been injured all year and not been able to produce as they should, OL has been injured and in shambles. Tell me an NFL team with the # of key injuries that we had that would be able to win? The Colts have had some injuries and have struggled but not the # of injuries as us plus they have Peyton Manning. That's my rant.[/quote]

Here we go again w/05. Gibbs did not win the 05 playoff game with an old qb. The offense didn't even crack 50 yards passing in that game. The defense won the game. Peroid! Again this is a classic case of the HC getting too much credit. And now he is getting too much blame.

Why is it that people around here keep clinging on to 05? I'm not knocking your post but we won a wild card game and that's it. That use to be the standard around here.

Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?
 

[QUOTE=skinsfan69;389604]Here we go again w/05. Gibbs did not win the 05 playoff game with an old qb. The offense didn't even crack 50 yards passing in that game. The defense won the game. Peroid! Again this is a classic case of the HC getting too much credit. And now he is getting too much blame.

Why is it that people around here keep clinging on to 05? I'm not knocking your post but we won a wild card game and that's it. That use to be the standard around here.[/QUOTE]

And what did we do the year before 05? Was he not our HC? He runs the whole team, doesn't he? Joe gets bashed when the offense falters but doesn't get credit when his defense wins. Credit goes to the HC as much as the DC and OC.

Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;389575]No you didn't. And I really don't think we "bash" players nearly enough. We don't even "bash" the other coaches. But hey, it is what it is. I hope to one day be as successful as Gibbs has been in his career so everyone can try to knock me down as well.[/quote]
I'm very surprised that you have missed all of the bashing of players and coaches as much as you post on this site. Its like after every loss and even after some wins the bashing starts. If you look at my post over the past four years I have done nothing but support JG and this team. When everyone was bashing I was thinking positive and hoping that things would change. Those two timeouts did not bother me one bit it was those three running plays when we had not been able to run the ball all day and just needed one first down to win. Gibbs went to the same old plays which if we could go back over the past 3 to 4 years and could see how that jumbo line has performed we could probably have a 20 yard pass that gained more yards than the 30 to 50 time they have run that failing jumbo package. Gibbs has just shown no signs of changing the thing that do not work and keeps doing them over and over again. Then add up all the errors the coaching has done over the years and I just think its time to move on. Like I said if Gibbs stays for another year he has my full support and I would love for him to prove me wrong.

Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?
 

[QUOTE=firstdown;389609]I'm very surprised that you have missed all of the bashing of players and coaches as much as you post on this site. Its like after every loss and even after some wins the bashing starts. If you look at my post over the past four years I have done nothing but support JG and this team. When everyone was bashing I was thinking positive and hoping that things would change. [B]Those two timeouts did not bother me one bit it was those three running plays when we had not been able to run the ball all day and just needed one first down to win. Gibbs went to the same old plays which if we could go back over the past 3 to 4 years and could see how that jumbo line has performed we could probably have a 20 yard pass that gained more yards than the 30 to 50 time they have run that failing jumbo package. [/B]Gibbs has just shown no signs of changing the thing that do not work and keeps doing them over and over again. Then add up all the errors the coaching has done over the years and I just think its time to move on. Like I said if Gibbs stays for another year he has my full support and I would love for him to prove me wrong.[/QUOTE]

Well see, you illustrate my point right there. Does Saunders calls the plays or does he not? As soon as we see a running play, everyone instinctively says "Oh well that's Gibbs handcuffing the team again." But is he even calling the plays there?

I think only person here has even made any mention of the fact that the defense gave up a 30 yard pass right down the middle to set up the game-winning field goal by the Bills. Where's the outcry over that? Where's the outcry over half the offensive line false starting at a critical 4th and 1 (I think that's what it was) in the red zone on the first drive? Things like that, when they are on this site, are usually buried in threads.

Look I'm not saying absolve Gibbs of any blame. I'm just echoing 70Chip's well-founded sentiments that more needs to go the players way. You win as a team, you lose as a team.

Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?
 

Gibbs cant be fired. DS wont do it and it would be a PR nightmare for a team that is already pretty heavily morgaged on the fan's goodwill. They will never risk the fan's rath by firing Gibbs.

I used to think Gibbs was going to step aside at the end of the year but now with all the ST stuff and the team doing it November swoon again I realy thank that unfortunately Gibbs will be back to finish out his contract.

Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?
 

Take a look at my name...does anyone here think I've not been bashing players, who in my eyes, are grossly underperforming? If I knew how to change it, I'd have something on hear about B. Lloyd. Trust me, I'm certainly not one to give players the free pass...


Presently, I'm of the opinion that Moss is no longer a premier WR...as far as i'm concerned he's had one good year (2005) and done little thereafter. He's injury prone and no longer explosive for the 80 yard trots down the sideline.

I also believe that Portis is no longer a premier back (bordering on average)- but when I make this comment, people jump down my throat about the line issues (and they are right), except, I believe that Great backs (which is what I'm told Clinton is) should do more than 3.9 yards per carry even with an injured line. Where's his explosiveness? why can't he break a long gain? he's got to lead the NFL in most carries without a TD of 25 yards or more.

I'm frustrated with Jason C. but I think he'll be VERY GOOD soon, so I look the other way.
plus other people are mentioning it.

As far as the D is concerned, I'm EXTREMELY frustrated with the lack of pressure from the D-line. we aren't stepping up and making plays...way too much time...but that is enough venting.

Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?
 

[QUOTE=BrunellMVP?;389626]

[B]I also believe that Portis is no longer a premier back (bordering on average)- [/B]but when I make this comment, people jump down my throat about the line issues (and they are right), except, I believe that Great backs (which is what I'm told Clinton is) should do more than 3.9 yards per carry even with an injured line. Where's his explosiveness? why can't he break a long gain? he's got to lead the NFL in most carries without a TD of 25 yards or more.
.[/QUOTE]

What's with CP running so soft this year? It seems like he's caught Jamal Lewis syndrome where he takes a lot of quick little steps at the line and can't get it going. I'd like to see him get back to being the one cut and take off runner that he used to be... (I guess this could all be caused by the line.)

Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;389616]Well see, you illustrate my point right there. [B]Does Saunders calls the plays or does he not? As soon as we see a running play, everyone instinctively says "Oh well that's Gibbs handcuffing the team again." But is he even calling the plays there?[/B]

I think only person here has even made any mention of the fact that the defense gave up a 30 yard pass right down the middle to set up the game-winning field goal by the Bills. Where's the outcry over that? Where's the outcry over half the offensive line false starting at a critical 4th and 1 (I think that's what it was) in the red zone on the first drive? Things like that, when they are on this site, are usually buried in threads.

Look I'm not saying absolve Gibbs of any blame. I'm just echoing 70Chip's well-founded sentiments that more needs to go the players way. You win as a team, you lose as a team.[/quote]

That is part of the problem..who is calling the plays in crunch situations? red zone, forth down, 4th quarter, 2 min drill? the shroud of confusion from the fan perspective is problematic. I personally believe gibbs takes over in the critical situations...otherwise, what does he actually do? he'd be like a bowden at FSU- a figurehead, in which case, why do we care if he's there or not.

That is an excellent point SS, there is def. no excusing the Defense's play...they constantly give up long drives in crunch time too...very frustrating and unacceptable...i think people are more likely to give them a break there bc ST wasn't there...
in my opinion, the Defense is not NEARLY as good as we think...or would like to believe...

Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?
 

[quote=BleedBurgundy;389630]What's with CP running so soft this year? It seems like he's caught Jamal Lewis syndrome where he takes a lot of quick little steps at the line and can't get it going. I'd like to see him get back to being the one cut and take off runner that he used to be... (I guess this could all be caused by the line.)[/quote]

agreed. The line is def. responsible for CP's lack of a 130 yards per game average- but, like i said, in my mind, he should be a lot better than than he is, which is just below or at average. he got 2 yards a carry last week against a weak run defense. If he's like Jamal, i hope next year CP has the same type of rebirth, because nobody is going to take his contract.

Betts must be fuming...no way he knew he was signing on to be a [B][I]full time[/I][/B] backup.

Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?
 

[quote=BrunellMVP?;389632]That is part of the problem..who is calling the plays in crunch situations? red zone, forth down, 4th quarter, 2 min drill? the shroud of confusion from the fan perspective is problematic. I personally believe gibbs takes over in the critical situations...otherwise, what does he actually do? he'd be like a bowden at FSU- a figurehead, in which case, why do we care if he's there or not.

That is an excellent point SS, there is def. no excusing the Defense's play...they constantly give up long drives in crunch time too...very frustrating and unacceptable...i think people are more likely to give them a break there bc ST wasn't there...
in my opinion, the Defense is not NEARLY as good as we think...or would like to believe...[/quote]

There is no doubt in my mind that Gibbs has major influence once we get to crunch time and end of the game situations. No doubt.

Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;389616]I think only person here has even made any mention of the fact that the defense gave up a 30 yard pass right down the middle to set up the game-winning field goal by the Bills. Where's the outcry over that? Where's the outcry over half the offensive line false starting at a critical 4th and 1 (I think that's what it was) in the red zone on the first drive? Things like that, when they are on this site, are usually buried in threads.[/QUOTE]
Between the injury to Springs and the defensive line not getting any kind of pressure, Edwards had all day to throw last Sunday...the secondary gave up more than one big pass play.

The Bills were 5-13 on 3rd downs. Looking at the drive log, the Skins gave up 9 on 3rd and 4, 16 on 3rd and 6 (same drive, ended in a punt), 29 on a 3rd and 7, 9 on 3rd and 5, and 54 on a 3rd and 6. Last 3 were all in the 2nd half, and all set up FGs by Buffalo.

However, at the time, there was only one starter out on the field (Landry) and the rest were 2nd and even 3rd string backups. Any QB worth their weight in Fruit Roll-ups are going to find open receivers in a patch-work secondary. Edwards did just that as the momentum swung in the Bills' favor during the 2nd half.

Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?
 

I'm tending to agree about Moss. A fine #2 reciever, but not sure he's a #1.

I keep also hearing that the players should take some of the heat too. They should. However, Gibbs brings the players in. Example #1. Yes, we blamed Brunell for about everything, as well deserved. However, I place major blame on Gibbs for bringing him in. He had about 0 in the tank at that point. I can't remember any nfl guru's thinking that was a good move. Point being, if you are going to blame the players part of that lies on JG's too.

Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;389607]And what did we do the year before 05? Was he not our HC? He runs the whole team, doesn't he? Joe gets bashed when the offense falters but doesn't get credit when his defense wins. Credit goes to the HC as much as the DC and OC.[/quote]

Well he has nothing to do with the defense. He is not involved and he has said so himself. Even in his 1st go around he left it to Ritchie.

Here is something else I noticed. I could be nitpicking but oh well. The other night I saw Bill B. on the sidelines talking to the offensive and defensive players. I saw a piece on NFL Network and they had a mic on the NE sidelines. Bill B. is talking strategy with the players, telling them instructions, in other words he is very involved even though he is not the defensive or offensive play caller. When Brady comes to the sidelines during a TO he is communicating with Josh McDaniels but Bill B. is right there in the huddle talking with his QB and OC. He is involved even though he does not call the plays.

Does Gibbs EVER do any of this? No. He is not involved at all when it comes to in game stategy. Sorry but if my offense was having all these problems in the red zone, and I was constantly blowing 2nd half leads, and I was an expert in the area of NFL offense, and my season was on the line, you could bet your ass I would be involved. I would be talking with all of my players getting feed back. But I only see JC talking with Bill Lazor. Gibbs is never talking with any of the players. He's just on the head phones with Saunders. Since when does Bill Lazor know more than Gibbs? Why isn't Saunders on the sidelines?

This is the stuff I'm talking about. I would send Lazor upstairs and have Al on the sidelines. Tough shit if he doesn't like it. Make some damn adjustments to try and score more points instead of staying put. Get your ass involved in the game instead of sitting there with your arms folded and trusting the assistants to do everything.

Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?
 

[quote=redsk1;389640]I'm tending to agree about Moss. A fine #2 reciever, but not sure he's a #1.

I keep also hearing that the players should take some of the heat too. They should. However, Gibbs brings the players in. Example #1. Yes, we blamed Brunell for about everything, as well deserved. However, I place major blame on Gibbs for bringing him in. He had about 0 in the tank at that point. I can't remember any nfl guru's thinking that was a good move. Point being, if you are going to blame the players part of that lies on JG's too.[/quote]

On top of that he gave up a draft pick for the guy when he didn't have to. That alone is a move that gets people fired.

Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?
 

[quote=BDBohnzie;389638]Between the injury to Springs and the defensive line not getting any kind of pressure, Edwards had all day to throw last Sunday...the secondary gave up more than one big pass play.

The Bills were 5-13 on 3rd downs. Looking at the drive log, the Skins gave up 9 on 3rd and 4, 16 on 3rd and 6 (same drive, ended in a punt), 29 on a 3rd and 7, 9 on 3rd and 5, and 54 on a 3rd and 6. Last 3 were all in the 2nd half, and all set up FGs by Buffalo.

However, at the time, there was only one starter out on the field (Landry) and the rest were 2nd and even 3rd string backups. Any QB worth their weight in Fruit Roll-ups are going to find open receivers in a patch-work secondary. Edwards did just that as the momentum swung in the Bills' favor during the 2nd half.[/quote]

That 30 yard pass play was pathetic. But you know what? The defense gave up 15 points. That should be good enough to win a home game against Buffalo.

Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?
 

[QUOTE=skinsfan69;389641]Well he has nothing to do with the defense. He is not involved and he has said so himself. Even in his 1st go around he left it to Ritchie.

Here is something else I noticed. I could be nitpicking but oh well. The other night I saw Bill B. on the sidelines talking to the offensive and defensive players. I saw a piece on NFL Network and they had a mic on the NE sidelines. Bill B. is talking strategy with the players, telling them instructions, in other words he is very involved even though he is not the defensive or offensive play caller. When Brady comes to the sidelines during a TO he is communicating with Josh McDaniels but Bill B. is right there in the huddle talking with his QB and OC. He is involved even though he does not call the plays.

Does Gibbs EVER do any of this? No. He is not involved at all when it comes to in game stategy. Sorry but if my offense was having all these problems in the red zone, and I was constantly blowing 2nd half leads, and I was an expert in the area of NFL offense, and my season was on the line, you could bet your ass I would be involved. I would be talking with all of my players getting feed back. But I only see JC talking with Bill Lazor. Gibbs is never talking with any of the players. He's just on the head phones with Saunders. Since when does Bill Lazor know more than Gibbs? Why isn't Saunders on the sidelines?

This is the stuff I'm talking about. I would send Lazor upstairs and have Al on the sidelines. Tough shit if he doesn't like it. Make some damn adjustments to try and score more points instead of staying put. Get our ass involved in the game instead of sitting there with your arms folded and trusting the assistants to do everything.[/QUOTE]

That's quite an assumption to make to say that he's not involved in strategy, and just sits there doing nothing. True he does not call plays, but that's pretty extreme to just assume he stands around doing nothing.

Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?
 

[QUOTE=skinsfan69;389646]That 30 yard pass play was pathetic. But you know what? The defense gave up 15 points. That should be good enough to win a home game against Buffalo.[/QUOTE]
And it would have been if the offensive line didn't break down protection inside their own 5 and give up a safety...

Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;389616]Well see, you illustrate my point right there. [b]Does Saunders calls the plays or does he not? As soon as we see a running play, everyone instinctively says "Oh well that's Gibbs handcuffing the team again." But is he even calling the plays there?[/b]

I think only person here has even made any mention of the fact that the defense gave up a 30 yard pass right down the middle to set up the game-winning field goal by the Bills. Where's the outcry over that? Where's the outcry over half the offensive line false starting at a critical 4th and 1 (I think that's what it was) in the red zone on the first drive? Things like that, when they are on this site, are usually buried in threads.

Look I'm not saying absolve Gibbs of any blame. I'm just echoing 70Chip's well-founded sentiments that more needs to go the players way. You win as a team, you lose as a team.[/QUOTE]
It's been well established that Saunders calls the plays, but it's been equally established that Gibbs sets the game plan and the tone for the plays he wants.. If Gibbs says 'Let's take some time off the clock' that means Saunders has to call runs and short passes to adhere to his wishes.. Even if he's not calling the plays his fingerprints are all over it..

I think it's time for Gibbs to go.. His record speaks for itself, he's under .500 and we're heading in the wrong direction.. ANY other coach would either be gone by now or there wouldn't be one single rational person on here saying 'give him more time.' Here are the ugly facts:
Below .500 record
5 losses with a 2nd half lead this year-15 overall since '04,
Currently on a 4 game losing streak
Every year a losing streak of more than 3 games
One (ONE!) winning streak of more than 2 games since '04
One playoff appearance
One winning record since '04
Team is older and more snug to the salary cap (although we always work that out) than it was when he took over..

How can anyone convince me that it's working out for the betterment of the franchise and/or there is any reason to expect/anticipate/believe that next year will be any better under the current regime..

For Campbell's continuity sake I hope we keep Saunders, but the rest of the staff, Grilliams included, can be shown the door as far as I am concerned.

Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?
 

[quote=skinsfan69;389646]That 30 yard pass play was pathetic. But you know what? The defense gave up 15 points. That should be good enough to win a home game against Buffalo.[/quote]

No doubt. Enough said right there. The D was not the problem.

Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;389657]That's quite an assumption to make to say that he's not involved in strategy, and just sits there doing nothing. True he does not call plays, but that's pretty extreme to just assume he stands around doing nothing.[/quote]

pay close attention tonight and see if gibbs is talking strategy with any of the players. watch when jc come over to the sidelines. see who he's talking to. it's always lazor.

Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?
 

I think that Portis is so worried about fumbling that he is hesitant to do some of the things he used to do that made him an elite back. Hopefully he watched film and took notes on how Willis McGahee played against the Patriots. Down Hill running

Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?
 

I could be wrong, but...

JG is not an idiot. He's seen what's been going on here the last decade or so and he's familiar with the owner. Id be willing to bet that Snyder has an arrangement with Gibbs that he won't be fired for performance. That would be a pr nightmare on both sides, and if you detach yourself from the situation, would it even make sense for snyder to let him walk at this point? Starting over with a new coach and a new system doesn't sound like a great season, and we've won alot more football with joe than without him...

Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?
 

If it was anyone else but Joe Gibbs, that coach would be gone at seasons end.

26-34 is not a great record. It is a 43% winning percentage. In his first season back we knew thier would be growing pains. The play clock got shorter since he retired, and it showed that he was not familiar with that.

He still likes big power backs that will eat up clock. Nothing wrong with that, but the rules changed while he was gone and the vertical game is really encouraged because of the rules. He is predictable, especially insode the 20.

Then we figured after 2 or 3 years, we would have the "Old Gibbs" back in form and punishing opposing teams and winning championships.

But as evidence from the Buffalo game, he has proven that he still has not caught up to the NFL since he retired. He did not know about the 10 men on defense as a tribute to Taylor. His defense did, his defensive coordinator did. Problem was no one communicated it to the head coach. He does not have control of his team.

He is a head coach in the NFL! It was an EMBARASSMENT to the team when he called that second consecutive timeout, hell even I knew that rule. That move only further questions his grasp of the game. This is the type of call he should have been re-adjusted to since returning.

But he left football before free agency, before the salary cap. Draft picks were traded and millions of salary cap dollars were spent providing him with what he said he needed for a winner. High price talent, and very little youth.

Now the team could be facing serious cap issues, and not enough draft picks for the future. If he does leave, his replacement may have very little to work with.

I think Gibbs needs to leave before his legacy is tarnished more than it already is.

Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?
 

Personally I don't think it was a big deal that Gibbs didn't know about the 10 men salute to Taylor. According to what I've read it was something that wasn't finalized until the night before the game. GW pretty much has full autonomy over the defense, so if he felt it wasn't critical to communicate this to Gibbs... who the F cares?

But I guess if you want to pile on...

Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?
 

Honestly I think Gibbs should retire to keep some dignity. I know there are plenty of people who never want to see Gibbs leave and if anyone brings anti-Gibbs propaganda near them they put a wall up and don't listen but the bottom line is[U] he just doesen't cut it.[/U] I know what he has done for this franchise but what has he done recently? Would you guys like him to stay here and just keep watching this team lose just because what he did 20 years ago?