Madden is a sore spot with Ill

i've owned every year Madden on any system i've had, since the first John Madden Football. i'm just mad at EA for being lazy and not seriously revamping player models, animations, and physics over the past 5 years since it came out on the PS2; all it's gotten are tweaks and add-ons every year. ANY other game besides this one would be considered an expansion pack and be $20. as you can tell i'm mostly pissed at myself for spending the $50 they charge.

EA is using its incumbency like a bully too. they effectively made MS cancel NFL Fever this year to do XBOX LIVE. Fever was another underdog that tried hard to push videogame football in ways EA doesn't feel it has to. it totally sucks that i can't Read n' Lead (think Maximum Passing but completely open and really well executed) a receiver in a current football game because EA crushed it. the least they could do is try and emulate something like it, add it to Madden. nope. don't have to. because of their 10 year name recognition. totally blows.

Madden is a great game. but it was almost as great 5 years ago. worth the $250 investment EA expects us to make over the years?? all you have to do is see the actual innovation and improvements made in other games like the $20 ESPN to get the answer to that one. IF they don't get cancelled by Madden's name alone.

I think both of these games are good. ESPN has better online play with XBOX. The graphics are tighter in 2k5, but the Madden game play is still good. It's a toss up for me.

2K5 sold about 900,000 units in July, I don't think they're going anywhere.

you talk like every game is supposed to move 900,000 units... that'd still seem to land it in 2nd place for football games... madden will probably end up with 3-4 mill its first month...

its really not that bad.

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]2K5 sold about 900,000 units in July, I don't think they're going anywhere.[/QUOTE]

i heard today that this is going to be the last title in the 2k series and the series is going to be totally revamped even though its latest incarnation is a pretty solid game.

Hey skinsfanthruandthru are you the Mad English Dirtbags in the Warpath $$ League?

If so, we missed you during the live draft Sunday night.

what Matty meant was that ESPN sold 900k, so it WON'T get cancelled (go anywhere). i hope he's right.

and i've heard that same 'last one of the series' rumor about Madden, don't know which is true, but innovation of any kind isn't only welcome, it's needed. and i'm not talking about Groundskeeper Mode, or bump mapping whats left of Chris Berman's hair...

[QUOTE=smootsmack]Hey skinsfanthruandthru are you the Mad English Dirtbags in the Warpath $$ League?

If so, we missed you during the live draft Sunday night.[/QUOTE]

nope, not me. I don't have the extra cash to be doing a pay league and it takes the fun out of it for me. I'm already competetive enough but add money to the mix and watch out, lol.

[QUOTE=illdefined]what Matty meant was that ESPN sold 900k, so it WON'T get cancelled (go anywhere). i hope he's right.

and i've heard that same 'last one of the series' rumor about Madden, don't know which is true, but innovation of any kind isn't only welcome, it's needed. and i'm not talking about Groundskeeper Mode, or bump mapping whats left of Chris Berman's hair...[/QUOTE]
this is the last year with madden's name in the title/game unless he does a complete reversal and signs a new contract. But I have a feeling now that he's with abc(which of course owns espn), there may be a chance, all be it slim, that he'd possibly join up with espn and sega's football title next year.

whered u get this info?

seems like a popular rumor, I haven't seen anything official though

i hope its true.

A. Madden is losing it as a human being, much less a commentator

B. the name recognition factor would be dead, and the games would finally stand on their own and not by their franchise

EA is a pretty big brand name even without madden... bigger than sega or espn in the gaming world...

the ESPN game to me was really crappy, after playing madden for so long, all other games seem to suck. the gameplay was weird, and like the preseason was confusing to me

[QUOTE=Big C]the ESPN game to me was really crappy, after playing madden for so long, all other games seem to suck. the gameplay was weird, and like the preseason was confusing to me[/QUOTE]

Not only that, but the franchise mode sucks on ESPN. The only that game has going is sportscenter, and the post game highlights with Berman. Oh yeah, and the redskins playbook.

yeah that was enticing, but the rest sucked balls, pales in comparison to madden

EA has all the best games, FIFA 2005 is going to be the best sports game ever, or at least second to madden. no other company is even in the same ball park

[QUOTE=illdefined]i hope its true.

A. Madden is losing it as a human being, much less a commentator

B. the name recognition factor would be dead, and the games would finally stand on their own and not by their franchise[/QUOTE]Madden is losing it as a human being? Not sure what you're trying to get at there.

Even if you take away the Madden name, (which I don't understand why they would), it still has the EA name attached to it. Whatever they call the game it would still sell.

Gamespot gave Madden '05 a 9.0 overall, ESPN a 9.1. Unless I'm missing something there isn't a huge difference between the games. They both have their positives and negatives.

just meant that Madden seems to be gettin old. he's gettin up there you know?

of course EA is a big gaming name, as is Sega, but thats to gamers. to most of the people who buy these games at Wal-Mart, its all about MADDEN, NFL, ESPN etc. no one would buy SEGA football or EA football. if Madden didn't renew the contract you could be sure EA would pick another franchise name quick, and they'd lose alot of the 10 year name recognition of Madden to the non-gamers. ESPN as a name could be bigger than whatever they choose, and make more kids pick it up instead of EA's new Al Micheals Football '06. again, talking about the majority of the buyer$ out there, who arent necessarily 'gamers'.

of course playing the same game for years will make playing another seem weird. but just cuz you are used to something doesn't make it better. to me, thats exactly the problem with Madden. it's been the same game for years..

[QUOTE=of course playing the same game for years will make playing another seem weird. but just cuz you are used to something doesn't make it better. to me, thats exactly the problem with Madden. it's been the same game for years..[/QUOTE]

Exactly, thats why it's still the best football game out there. Not trying to knock ESPN, but Madden has been consistent for a while now.

if it ain't broke...

i'm broke. from buying the same game every year.

c'mon, you guys are avid football fans. you're telling me that Madden has got it just right and can't get ALOT better? not even try and absorb some of the improvements to the genre that other games have made, or improve on the models+animations etc??

[QUOTE=illdefined]i'm broke. from buying the same game every year.

c'mon, you guys are avid football fans. you're telling me that Madden has got it just right and can't get ALOT better? not even try and absorb some of the improvements to the genre that other games have made, or improve on the models+animations etc??[/QUOTE]

Oh no, of course they can improve. There's always room for improvement. But as far as overall gameplay goes.......Madden is still the King.

Ill, I hear what your saying man. I also think that Madden can improve their animations. But, I also think ESPN can improve on alot more things than Madden. Like maybe the depth chart, roster management, and franchise mode. I think the whole "cribs" thing has to go.....

i suppose its how you define gameplay, cuz i define it as play on the field, and the closeness to reality of an NFL game. yeah Madden has better stats, franchise, and things that i understand many people love. but on the field i been seeing the same dumpy unrealistic player models, only-adequate physics, and too few, short, robotic animations for 5 years now.

here's some high-tech that really adds to gameplay that Madden doesn't feel is worth the effort. the near perfect, realtime tackle system of ESPN, or FEVER's (R.I.P.) Read n' Lead totally open passing system. not only are these things cool, they WORK and add alot to the actual gamePLAY. on the field. hitstick and playmaker just don't cut it compared to design and technology like that.

cribs, berman, owner mode, madden cards, even drafts and contract negotiations, while cool, is still extra, and i don't consider it true GAME DEVELOPMENT.

haha, here we go again.

If Madden loses Madden next year, I truly beleive it will be a better game. Its not like Madden does anythign for the game. We will miss some of his cheesy comments, but the commentary in the game is one of its weakest attributes. In recent years they havetn worked on fixing the commentary at all, and you still get told when you are up by 50 that this is a do or die play right here. Im sure they will still get commentators and fix all the sound of the game.

Ill, just curious, have you played Madden '05?

[QUOTE=SKINSnCANES]haha, here we go again.

If Madden loses Madden next year, I truly beleive it will be a better game. Its not like Madden does anythign for the game. We will miss some of his cheesy comments, but the commentary in the game is one of its weakest attributes. In recent years they havetn worked on fixing the commentary at all, and you still get told when you are up by 50 that this is a do or die play right here. Im sure they will still get commentators and fix all the sound of the game.[/QUOTE]

Yeah I gave up on Ill. He sticking with what he believes which is fine. I respect his opinion.

i was at the store during halftime of the HOF game (after normal closing hours) cuz that's when they called to tell me the truck with Madden 05 came. I interrupted the first SKINS game to get Madden. and like Summo, who started this thread, was disappointed in this year's release. too much the same, not enough BETTER.

conversely Matty, I know everything you've said about ESPN is based on last year's from your previous posts. have you gotten a chance to look at 2k5 yet?

Since I have been in this argument several times on this board, this is my conclusion:

If you want a football game becuase you are going to play a franchise, then you have no choice but to get madden in my opinion, its far superior if you play more than one season.

If you want a football game for head to head, or never play more than one season because you just play with current rosters, then you will probably buy espn and enjoy the extra presentation features that go along with the game.

No matter how many times we do the arguement, the franchise mode is always the most talked about. The animation factor bascially seems like its a personal preference more than anything. Everyone can state reasons why the same animation is better in each of the games. Both games have taken huge leaps from what football games used to be, neither is a bad game. So in my mind it comes down to if you want the presentation or the franchise.

in defense of illdefined, since you guys are questioning his knowledge of the games, when we had these arguments before almost everyone owed both games and had played both.

When it comes down to it you have to like one better, expecially for me since I dont play head to head, I only do franchises, I dont have the time to play season after season of both. So I decided I only play madden for franchise,a nd if someone never really played a football game before i might put in 2k5 because it more represents a football viewing experience. (well, with the lack of commentary)

Canes, if there is any consensus on this issue at all, thats definitely it. Franchise lovers love all Madden offers, and less dynasty oriented people seem to prefer ESPN.

but i maintain that it has to do with what's on the field. I haven't mentioned once the gloss of ESPN's presentation. it's amazing for sure, from in game pass and run analysis to weekly sportcenters, but that's not what makes ESPN closer to real NFL than Madden for me.

how they players look, what they do, and how they react on the field is an order of magnitude better than Madden. there's super realistic animations for everything like pushing on the backs of Olineman, incidental contact and calling timeouts on the ground. ESPN still has that super annoying waddle rotation on small direction changes, but you can finally cut and stumble and its never looked better. Madden has added a couple things here and there but they always seem like afterthoughts, no where near the attention to the details nor the love. Joe Crisp agrees about how the players themselves look and he sees more football players than any of us.

aside from the visual though, ESPN really makes you fight to score and to me the best part, really imparts the feeling of lobbing a pass just high enough to get over a reaching defender to your man. too much of a bullet and its picked, too much of a lob and the safety gets there and breaks it up. I've never felt the 'seam' so well before in a videogame.

its really fun to watch and play not sim.

out of curiosity, what difficultly level do you play on?

I ask this because on both games that animations and AI are completly different when you take it off of the default settings. Madden, on All Madden mode is the most realistic football game AI to date, hands down. The stats are par to those in real life, if you arent that good it definitly shows. You cant throw with accuracy while scrambling and off your back foot. Even the reviews state how much of a sleep madden took this year if you play on the all madden level. Things cant be real on the easier levels because it would be to hard. A beginer picks what receiver they are gong ot throw to before teh plays starts, much less look for the open guy and sets his feet first.

The main animation is espn is what I hate the most, running. Just plain old running. Its unnatural the way the the player moves. If you try to run at an angle he compleltly stops his forward momenturm, faces straight left, then faces the direction you want to run in. The animation is so bad that fast players get tackled by slow players just becuase they tried to turn. I had to adapt my running style knowing that natural movments were impossible. I hated that and for that reason along it makes the game miserable to play.

I haven't tried 2K5 yet but I probably will rent it and give it a try sometime.

[QUOTE=SKINSnCANES]Since I have been in this argument several times on this board, this is my conclusion:

If you want a football game becuase you are going to play a franchise, then you have no choice but to get madden in my opinion, its far superior if you play more than one season.

If you want a football game for head to head, or never play more than one season because you just play with current rosters, then you will probably buy espn and enjoy the extra presentation features that go along with the game.

No matter how many times we do the arguement, the franchise mode is always the most talked about. The animation factor bascially seems like its a personal preference more than anything. Everyone can state reasons why the same animation is better in each of the games. Both games have taken huge leaps from what football games used to be, neither is a bad game. So in my mind it comes down to if you want the presentation or the franchise.[/QUOTE]
I think that pretty much sums things up. If you're a franchise guy, Madden is your game. If that's not your thing, ESPN is the way to go.

It comes down to how you like your football.

[QUOTE=SKINSnCANES]out of curiosity, what difficultly level do you play on?[/QUOTE]

yeah doesn't seem you can judge either game by its default difficulty. in ESPN's default, every back is Marshall Faulk in his prime and in Madden's you can still throw it from anywhere to a guy triple covered.

i play AllPro on ESPN and need to move on to Legend, it took me a while tho, made my custom audibles and do defensive assignments on almost every play. it was tough vs. good teams tho, especially since the Skins rank so low to start with. LOVE the playbook tho, good Gibbs work.

im gonna try Madden on All Madden and check it out. i never claimed Madden was easy, just that all the DB swats/picks and scripted 'gang' tackles were never convincing. HATE the playbook. looks awfully familiar as does everything else. THAT, if anything should be different than last year. this is the biggest year for the Skins in a decade...

hopefully i'll see some new Madden animations like you say, but what i want to see is the same long, but seamlessly interruptible ones from ESPN. yeah that rotating running thing on ESPN is infuriating, worst thing about the whole game. helps alot to use the analog, which you should be using, but its shouldn't be a necessity. once ESPN can lean in runners like Madden i think ESPN would take the title w/o dispute. and do all that franchise stuff of course... any ESPN franchisers out there? how's the weekly prep thing?

[QUOTE=illdefined]whered u get this info?[/QUOTE]
i heard it at work from a representative of a big name gaming company.

oh good. hope you're right then. maybe it will inspire EA to really get into the engine next year. and inspire Sega and Microsoft to try even harder and gain marketshare.

i.e. better games

I did the weekly prep thing for a while. I liked how I could have an injured guy play becuase i gave him massages all week. Becuase in real life playesr play injured and at a lesser level. It was neat at first but then got kinda boring having to do it everyweek. But its an added element that im glad they put in, becuase you dont have to do it if you dont want to. Just like all the newspaper and email stuff on madden, you check it and do it but you basically know what its going to say or do everyweek.