Re: Chargers and Norv
 

[quote=redsk1;406752]Damn, how about some credit for Norv. Great win today.

Hey guys, guess what...you can't win w/out good players. Norv didn't have good players as a skins coach and horrible players as the Raiders coach. His year or two in Oakland shouldn't even count.

Maybe not a great coach but give credit to an ex skins coach, an excellent offensive mind, and an overall nice guy.[/quote]

I cant believe how much everyone hates Norv. Yeah,he was a looser coach, but come on give him a little credit. I am happy for him. If some how he pulls of a win next week, he will for ever be my hero.

Re: Chargers and Norv
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;406788]I dealt with Norv Turner at least weekly behind the scenes for 2 and a half years. Decent guy, but I don't doubt for one minute that this team is winning despite him. Sure, some of it here might have been the players he had. He expected Gus Frerotte to be Troy Aikman, which he obviously wasn't. But Norv wouldn't budge. Did the same with Brad Johnson, who at least grasped things a lot better than Gus. Norv, similar to Spurrier, seemed to have no concept of what anyone beyond the QB was up to on the team. The whole locker room was filled with chaos and confusion. It was just ugly.

Now I understand he's not entirely to blame, but as the head coach he bears significant responsibility. I can't say I ever saw a time where he took charge and people said "that's our leader."

People speculate, and I would tend to agree, that Marvin Lewis was the true leader of the clubhouse while he was here with Spurrier. I wouldn't be surprised if something similar is happening in San Diego.

Norv's not a bad guy, but he shouldn't keep getting these great opportunities at the expense of others.[/QUOTE]

While I won't disagree, I will say that Norv's first stint as a head coach was with us, so there was plenty of learning to go around. Also, keep in mind that he led us to 4 winning records in 7 years (he was 7-6 in 2000 when he was fired). We were a doormat and he lifted us from that. No, he did not have what it took back then to get any better than that, and I do not for one second disagree with firing him, but that was a long time ago, and people can learn.

Re: Chargers and Norv
 

[QUOTE=skinsfan69;406780]You can't blame Snyder for the Green/Johnson situation cause he didn't have control of the team until the moves were already made. Trent Green was already gone before Danny got the team. Charley Casserly was the one who brought in Brad Johnson under John Cooke.[/QUOTE]

Thank you! When will people stop saying Snyder got rid of Trent Green?

Re: Chargers and Norv
 

[QUOTE=BleedBurgundy;406794]Are you referring to Bobby Beathard? Anyway, what I was trying to say is that the Chargers still have Marty's personality. That's still his team out there. Norv is the head coach, but that team carries Marty's imprint.[/QUOTE]

No, it was after Bobby Beathard. This guy came from Buffalo who also brought Smith from Buffalo.

Re: Chargers and Norv
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;406781]What has Marty Done? Show me? He'll have a great season and CHOKE!! At least Norv with the same team minus LaDanian lost in the 2nd quarter, Rivers lost in the 4th quarter, beat the Colts in Indy. Enough said!!![/quote]

So the players had nothing to do with that huh? John Elway had nothing to do with that? How is Byner fumbling on the one yard line Marty's fault?? I just think that the whole Marty is a choker stuff is bullshit. The dude is a damn good coach. Norv is just a good OC. He is not a leader of men.

Alot of people can coach the Chargers. They are set up to win now.They have the best RB in the NFL. They have the best pass rusher. One of the best NT's. A solid o-line. Real good corners. And the AFC West sucked this year.

Re: Chargers and Norv
 

[QUOTE=BleedBurgundy;406794]Are you referring to Bobby Beathard? Anyway, what I was trying to say is that the Chargers still have Marty's personality. That's still his team out there. Norv is the head coach, but that team carries Marty's imprint.[/QUOTE]

Sorry guys, you do not win two playoff games and especially the reigning SB champs that looked great all season if you're riding someone's coat tails. Maybe I could agree after beating the titans, but not the Colts. Give Norv some credit.

Re: Chargers and Norv
 

[QUOTE=SFREDSKIN;406792]They had another GM before AJ Smith took over, he had a great eye for talent and died a few years ago. I can't remember his name.[/QUOTE]

You're thinking of John Butler

Re: Chargers and Norv
 

[QUOTE=skinsfan69;406802]So the players had nothing to do with that huh? John Elway had nothing to do with that? How is Byner fumbling on the one yard line Marty's fault?? I just think that the whole Marty is a choker stuff is bullshit. The dude is a damn good coach. Norv is just a good OC. He is not a leader of men.

Alot of people can coach the Chargers. They are set up to win now.They have the best RB in the NFL. They have the best pass rusher. One of the best NT's. A solid o-line. Real good corners. And the AFC West sucked this year.[/QUOTE]

Positive reputation points coming your way

Re: Chargers and Norv
 

I was not a fan of Norv while he was here, but I have to give him credit. It just makes you wonder . . . if Norv can win elsewhere then maybe the problem is here. Obviously our players during his stint were not nearly as good as the ones we have now, but still it is unbelievably frustrating. When will we ever be a dominant team again?

Re: Chargers and Norv
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;406796]While I won't disagree, I will say that Norv's first stint as a head coach was with us, so there was plenty of learning to go around. Also, keep in mind that he led us to 4 winning records in 7 years (he was 7-6 in 2000 when he was fired). We were a doormat and he lifted us from that. No, he did not have what it took back then to get any better than that, and I do not for one second disagree with firing him, but that was a long time ago, and people can learn.[/QUOTE]

True, but what I'm saying is, from what I saw, he never led anything. The Redskins won despite him, and now the Chargers are as well. I mean I don't know how things are working in San Diego. But with the Redskihs, he was completely overmatched.

People do learn, no question. But I don't see still how he deserved to be given a third opportunity with a team already on the cusp of the SB when he arrived.

Re: Chargers and Norv
 

Just an FYI, Norv this season has 2 playoff wins (and hopefully not done), Schott had 2 playoff wins in a season only 1 time in his entire career, and that was in 92 with KC.

Funny how people think so negative of Norv, but so highly of Schott when schott pissed off the vets like Darryl Green and Bruce Smith on a regular basis. There was practically a mutany cause schott was such a jerk. The entire team wanted him gone, yet some here think highly of him and not Norv??????

Re: Chargers and Norv
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;406803]Sorry guys, you do not win two playoff games and especially the reigning SB champs that looked great all season if you're riding someone's coat tails. Maybe I could agree after beating the titans, but not the Colts. Give Norv some credit.[/QUOTE]

To echo a post I made earlier, if you use that logic, how do you explain Callahan's SB trip with the Raiders?

Re: Chargers and Norv
 

For the record, Marty is on of the best coaches out there. He made it to three AFC championship games and he built the Chargers. If they had let him stay here, he would have won a super bowl for us by now. Can somebody tell me who our who our QB was under Marty, I cant remember for the life of me.

Re: Chargers and Norv
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;406812]Just an FYI, Norv this season has 2 playoff wins (and hopefully not done), Schott had 2 playoff wins in a season only 1 time in his entire career, and that was in 92 with KC.

Funny how people think so negative of Norv, but so highly of Schott when schott pissed off the vets like Darryl Green and Bruce Smith on a regular basis. There was practically a mutany cause schott was such a jerk. The entire team wanted him gone, yet some here think highly of him and not Norv??????[/QUOTE]

Those players were pissed because he wanted everyone to bust their ass all the time. He came in and didn't assume anything. He expected vets and rooks alike to "earn it." I think that is worthy of respect.

Re: Chargers and Norv
 

[QUOTE=T.O.Killa;406815]For the record, Marty is on of the best coaches out there. He made it to three AFC championship games and he built the Chargers. If they had let him stay here, he would have won a super bowl for us by now. Can somebody tell me who our who our QB was under Marty, I cant remember for the life of me.[/QUOTE]

Tony Banks for at least half the season, I believe. Yeah that's right, Tony Banks

Re: Chargers and Norv
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;406812]Just an FYI, Norv this season has 2 playoff wins (and hopefully not done), Schott had 2 playoff wins in a season only 1 time in his entire career, and that was in 92 with KC.

Funny how people think so negative of Norv, but so highly of Schott when schott pissed off the vets like Darryl Green and Bruce Smith on a regular basis. There was practically a mutany cause schott was such a jerk. The entire team wanted him gone, yet some here think highly of him and not Norv??????[/QUOTE]

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marty_Schottenheimer#Cleveland_Browns]Marty Schottenheimer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url]

You're forgetting what he did in Cleveland.

Re: Chargers and Norv
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;406811]True, but what I'm saying is, from what I saw, he never led anything. The Redskins won despite him, and now the Chargers are as well. I mean I don't know how things are working in San Diego. But with the Redskihs, he was completely overmatched.

People do learn, no question. But I don't see still how he deserved to be given a third opportunity with a team already on the cusp of the SB when he arrived.[/QUOTE]

Well, I definitely agree with you about the opportunity, but he's making the best of it. It wouldn't have been my choice at all, and I thought it was dumb to fire Marty just to bring in Norv. Obviously Norv is doing something right though, and I have not heard a single grumble out of SD about his leadership. Thus I feel he learned his lesson. There is no doubt that he's a great coordinator and QB coach, the question was about his ability to be a HC, and so far he's passing with flying colors.

Re: Chargers and Norv
 

[QUOTE=skinsfan69;406802]So the players had nothing to do with that huh? John Elway had nothing to do with that? How is Byner fumbling on the one yard line Marty's fault?? I just think that the whole Marty is a choker stuff is bullshit. The dude is a damn good coach. Norv is just a good OC. He is not a leader of men.

Alot of people can coach the Chargers. They are set up to win now.They have the best RB in the NFL. They have the best pass rusher. One of the best NT's. A solid o-line. Real good corners. And the AFC West sucked this year.[/QUOTE]

Wasn't you the one who said that coaches are overrated? You will never convince me that Marty is a great coach, he will be forever be remembered as a CHOKER to me and lots of fans till proven otherwise.

Re: Chargers and Norv
 

This article is from earlier this year, and you could be right that he has improved jsarno. But this quote summarizes exactly what I was trying to say about what I saw of Norv while he was coaching the Redskins:

"Talk to Turner's former players, and this is what they'll tell you: Give the man one job, and he'll do that job well. But give him a big job with multiple responsibilities, and he gets anxious and scattered and has a hard time doing any one thing capably."

[url=http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=ms-morningrush092407&prov=yhoo&type=lgns]Charging toward disaster - NFL - Yahoo! Sports[/url]

Re: Chargers and Norv
 

[QUOTE=skinsguy;406820][url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marty_Schottenheimer#Cleveland_Browns]Marty Schottenheimer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url]

You're forgetting what he did in Cleveland.[/QUOTE]

No I'm not, he never had more than 1 playoff win in a season in Cleveland. Please go back and read my post. Only 1 time did Schott win 2 playoff games in a season.
[url=http://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/SchoMa0.htm]Marty Schottenheimer Record, Statistics, and Category Ranks - Pro-Football-Reference.com[/url]

FYI- he's 5-13 in the playoffs, one of the worst records of all time in the postseason.

Re: Chargers and Norv
 

[QUOTEFYI- he's 5-13 in the playoffs, one of the worst records of all time in the postseason.[/QUOTE]

He blows!! That's embarrasing.

Re: Chargers and Norv
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;406825]No I'm not, he never had more than 1 playoff win in a season in Cleveland. Please go back and read my post. Only 1 time did Schott win 2 playoff games in a season.
[url=http://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/SchoMa0.htm]Marty Schottenheimer Record, Statistics, and Category Ranks - Pro-Football-Reference.com[/url]

FYI- he's 5-13 in the playoffs, one of the worst records of all time in the postseason.[/QUOTE]

You're right, but my point is he's gotten to the Championship game 3 times in his coaching career. Two of those back to back years.

Re: Chargers and Norv
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;406824]This article is from earlier this year, and you could be right that he has improved jsarno. But this quote summarizes exactly what I was trying to say about what I saw of Norv while he was coaching the Redskins:

"Talk to Turner's former players, and this is what they'll tell you: Give the man one job, and he'll do that job well. But give him a big job with multiple responsibilities, and he gets anxious and scattered and has a hard time doing any one thing capably."

[url=http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=ms-morningrush092407&prov=yhoo&type=lgns]Charging toward disaster - NFL - Yahoo! Sports[/url][/QUOTE]

It's a good link, but since then, no one has made a peep in the SD locker room, and that is speculation from a former player.
[b]"That team is a mess, and you know the players are wondering what the hell is going on," one NFL veteran who played for Turner in Oakland told me Sunday night. "They're looking to Norv for answers and leadership, and they won't get it. Marty had them on edge, ready to play, and they responded to that. And now this? They're a great team but it's not working, and it's not gonna work."[/b]
Problem is, it DID work, and it IS working.
The Colts were the 2nd best team in the NFL in my opinion, and they overcame it to win. If Turner is still wishy washy, then he has good coaches around him to help deflect that.

Re: Chargers and Norv
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;406822]Wasn't you the one who said that coaches are overrated? You will never convince me that Marty is a great coach, he will be forever be remembered as a CHOKER to me and lots of fans till proven otherwise.[/quote]Unfortunately that's not how it works. That's the equivalent of putting your hands over your ears and shouting "LALALALLALA IM NOT LISTENING LALALALALA I CANT HEAR YOU" which isnt really going to progress the argument.

The term "choker" is an argument designed to avoid substance since there is no criteria for choking. It's pretty much just "I dont like X player/coach, therefore he's a choker".

Please try again.

Re: Chargers and Norv
 

[QUOTE=Please try again.[/QUOTE]

Ok. 5-13 in the playoffs, HE SUCKS!!!!!!!!!

Re: Chargers and Norv
 

[quote=jsarno;406828]It's a good link, but since then, no one has made a peep in the SD locker room, and that is speculation from a former player.
[B]"That team is a mess, and you know the players are wondering what the hell is going on," one NFL veteran who played for Turner in Oakland told me Sunday night. "They're looking to Norv for answers and leadership, and they won't get it. Marty had them on edge, ready to play, and they responded to that. And now this? They're a great team but it's not working, and it's not gonna work."[/B]
Problem is, it DID work, and it IS working.
The Colts were the 2nd best team in the NFL in my opinion, and they overcame it to win. If Turner is still wishy washy, then he has good coaches around him to help deflect that.[/quote]I don't think that highly of Norv Turner, but if we are going to make the argument that the Chargers are winning in spite of him, then technically we have to say that about every coach ever. So I agree with you here, we can't hate on Norv for what he is doing.

I, of course, prefer to say that teams win largely independent of their coaching.

Re: Chargers and Norv
 

[QUOTE=skinsguy;406827]You're right, but my point is he's gotten to the Championship game 3 times in his coaching career. Two of those back to back years.[/QUOTE]

That's a good point, and I will counter with the fact that he hasn't won a single playoff game since 92, and has played 6 playoff games since.
Please note the dominance of these teams too starting with the most recent:
2006- 14-2
2004- 12-4
1997- 13-3
1995- 13-3
1994- 9-7
1993- 11-5

With the exception of 94, those were some dominant teams. The man can win during the season, but when it comes to the playoffs, he is horrendous. Sure you can point to the Byner fumble, but there were other missed opportunities in that game, it didn't even have to come down to that.

Re: Chargers and Norv
 

Everyone wants to say Marty is a choker because he's never made it to the Super Bowl, yet no one considers a.) crazy circumstances (except skinsfan69 apparently) such as the Byner fumble or the drive, b.) that he overachieves with limited talent. Not to mention all the byes he earned.

Should he be declared a choker for not winning a championship or one of the better coaches for getting his team that far?

Re: Chargers and Norv
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;406822]Wasn't you the one who said that coaches are overrated? You will never convince me that Marty is a great coach, he will be forever be remembered as a CHOKER to me and lots of fans till proven otherwise.[/quote]

I said it was overrated because the teams that wins the SB ( most of the time) has the best players. Teams don't win the SB because of great coaching.

I'm not saying Marty is a great coach. But he's better than Norv.

Re: Chargers and Norv
 

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;406831]I don't think that highly of Norv Turner, but if we are going to make the argument that the Chargers are winning in spite of him, then technically we have to say that about every coach ever. So I agree with you here, we can't hate on Norv for what he is doing.

I, of course, prefer to say that teams win largely independent of their coaching.[/QUOTE]

I wish I had more time, cause I would love to discuss your theory about coaching via PM.
I'm not so sure I agree, but I think you're right in certain cases.

Re: Chargers and Norv
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;406835]Everyone wants to say Marty is a choker because he's never made it to the Super Bowl, yet no one considers a.) crazy circumstances (except skinsfan69 apparently) such as the Byner fumble or the drive, b.) that he overachieves with limited talent. Should he be declared a choker for not winning a championship or one of the better coaches for getting his team that far?[/QUOTE]

I watched Marty since he was with Cleveland, I actually thought he was a pretty coach and rooted for him. Then I noticed his conservative style (afraid to go for the kill) and lose. Yes, he had some bad luck, but he also was way to conservative. He broke my heart too many times to the point where I can't stand him now.

Re: Chargers and Norv
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;406830]Ok. 5-13 in the playoffs, HE SUCKS!!!!!!!!![/quote]

So let me ask you this. Who do you think is a better HEAD COACH? Norv or Marty?

Also, if you were to ask all of the SD players who would they rather have as a head coach, I would be willing to bet any amount of $ that 90% of the players would say Marty.

Re: Chargers and Norv
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;406835]Everyone wants to say Marty is a choker because he's never made it to the Super Bowl, yet no one considers a.) crazy circumstances (except skinsfan69 apparently) such as the Byner fumble or the drive, b.) that he overachieves with limited talent. Not to mention all the byes he earned.

Should he be declared a choker for not winning a championship or one of the better coaches for getting his team that far?[/QUOTE]

Limited talent????? I whole heartedly disagree with you there.
I have never called him a choker, my thoughts about him is he doesn't know how to step up in the playoffs. He is too arrogant to mix things up and try new things and the teams he plays are prepared for his teams. You have to ask yourself why the team is so dominant during the season then they suck in the postseason. It's not cause he overachieves, but it is cause he underachieves in the postseason, when it counts.
Again I say, there were more missed chances in that Byner fumble game...the one play does not define a coach, nor can be pointed to in an excuse to say he's a good postseason coach.

Re: Chargers and Norv
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;406839]I watched Marty since he was with Cleveland, I actually thought he was a pretty coach and rooted for him. Then I noticed his conservative style (afraid to go for the kill) and lose. Yes, he had some bad luck, but he also was way to conservative. He broke my heart too many times to the point where I can't stand him now.[/quote]

I will agree with you on his conservative style. But you could also say this about Gibbs 2.

Re: Chargers and Norv
 

[QUOTE=SFREDSKIN;406839]I watched Marty since he was with Cleveland, [B]I actually thought he was a pretty coach [/B]and rooted for him. Then I noticed his conservative style (afraid to go for the kill) and lose. Yes, he had some bad luck, but he also was way to conservative. He broke my heart too many times to the point where I can't stand him now.[/QUOTE]

Wow! Well, I never considered that :)

Re: Chargers and Norv
 

[QUOTE=skinsfan69;406840]So let me ask you this. Who do you think is a better HEAD COACH? Norv or Marty?

Also, if you were to ask all of the SD players who would they rather have as a head coach, I would be willing to bet any amount of $ that 90% of the players would say Marty.[/QUOTE]

I know you're not talking to me, but I want to make myself clear by saying Marty is.

Re: Chargers and Norv
 

[QUOTE=skinsfan69;406840]So let me ask you this. Who do you think is a better HEAD COACH? Norv or Marty?

Also, if you were to ask all of the SD players who would they rather have as a head coach, I would be willing to bet any amount of $ that 90% of the players would say Marty.[/QUOTE]

I would take Norv because of his offensive mind.

Re: Chargers and Norv
 

[QUOTE=SFREDSKIN;406839]I watched Marty since he was with Cleveland, [bI actually thought he was a pretty coach[/b] and rooted for him. Then I noticed his conservative style (afraid to go for the kill) and lose. Yes, he had some bad luck, but he also was way to conservative. He broke my heart too many times to the point where I can't stand him now.[/QUOTE]

I agree with you minus the pretty part...he's rather ugly. :D

Re: Chargers and Norv
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;406841]Limited talent????? I whole heartedly disagree with you there.
I have never called him a choker, my thoughts about him is he doesn't know how to step up in the playoffs. He is too arrogant to mix things up and try new things and the teams he plays are prepared for his teams. You have to ask yourself why the team is so dominant during the season then they suck in the postseason. It's not cause he overachieves, but it is cause he underachieves in the postseason, when it counts.
Again I say, there were more missed chances in that Byner fumble game...the one play does not define a coach, nor can be pointed to in an excuse to say he's a good postseason coach.[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure I ever said you called him a choker. If so, I apologize. SF called him a choker and I'm just saying, well to say he's a choker because of his post-season record is a fairly myopic way of seeing things.

And credit has to be given to the Broncos in that game. Both teams played great. Seems kind of ridiculous for anyone to blame Schottenheimer for that loss.

Re: Chargers and Norv
 

[QUOTE=SFREDSKIN;406845]I would take Norv because of his offensive mind.[/QUOTE]

You also said you wanted Cam Cameron to coach the Redskins. ;)

Between the two, I'd definitely take Marty for two reasons:
1. He knows how to build winning teams
2. He demands respect of his players

He's biggest knock is not going to or winning a Super Bowl, but he's a better HC than Norv.