Re: Is Tom Brady the best QB ever?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;412706]Well my basic point is people always seem to want to crown a single player as being the best ever, and as you allude to it's just not that simple. So why bother trying to figure out who was the best ever? There's a handful of guys who are always in the discussion, I just don't get the need to name one guy as the best ever.[/quote]Once somebody comes up with a compent coefficienct for adjusting between eras, we will be able to use their stats to make strong arguments for being the best of all time. Until then, you would be right, the only cross-era comparsions we have are subjective.

I think this guy deserves more than a single look for greatest ever title:

[url=http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/G/GrahOt00.htm]Otto Graham Statistics - Pro-Football-Reference.com[/url]

Re: Is Tom Brady the best QB ever?
 

[quote=SKINSnCANES;412710]I dont think id agree that Romo is better now than McNabb ever was. This is actually a great discussion because they both had TO, but McNabb has also been great with James Thrash and Todd Stinkson...[/quote]I wouldn't say "great". He had one great year in 2004 when he had Owens, but before then, he was pretty good on a great all around team.

Since 2004, he's been pretty good, but injury prone. If one great year could get you on my top 10 list, I'd go Culpepper before McNabb under those circumstances.

Re: Is Tom Brady the best QB ever?
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;412638]My personal top 10 in no particular order, and I'm basing this only on QBs that I have seen play in my lifetime:

Brady
Manning
Montana
Aikman
Elway
Kelly
Favre
Young
Marino
Moon[/QUOTE]

Dude, Montana above Manning!

Re: Is Tom Brady the best QB ever?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;412708]I had to ask myself, "if Tony Romo were to stop improving altoghether, would he make my list".

I thought he still would. He's certainly better now than McNabb ever was. If Romo keeps improving, he's going to rank higher on that list.

Remember, I was one of the last people on this fourm to come around on Romo. I was ultra skeptical of him because he was undrafted. Once he proved that he was no one year wonder, I gave him his props.[/quote]

I dunno, personally I would still take McNabb's best year over Romo's.

In 2004 McNabb was crazy. He threw for 3,875 yards, completed 64%, threw 31 TDs vs. only 8 INTs for a QB rating of 104.7.

Re: Is Tom Brady the best QB ever?
 

[quote=QBall;412713]Dude, Montana above Manning![/quote]

Dude, read my post very carefully and pay attention to the "in no particular order" part.

Re: Is Tom Brady the best QB ever?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;412715]I dunno, personally I would still take McNabb's best year over Romo's.

In 2004 McNabb was crazy. He threw for 3,875 yards, completed 64%, threw 31 TDs vs. only 8 INTs for a QB rating of 104.7.[/quote]Fair enough. Romo was no. 9 on my list, and it could definately be argued that he isn't better than McNabb if Romo doesn't improve anymore (which is the assumption with this list).

Romo's 2006 is still pretty comprable to anything McNabb has done prior to or since 2004.

Re: Is Tom Brady the best QB ever?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;412718]Fair enough. Romo was no. 9 on my list, and it could definately be argued that he isn't better than McNabb if Romo doesn't improve anymore (which is the assumption with this list).

[B]Romo's 2006 is still pretty comprable to anything McNabb has done prior to or since 2004[/B].[/quote]

True.

My only gripe with Romo is all the INTs he throws, but Favre had the same problem early in his career and he ended up ok.

Re: Is Tom Brady the best QB ever?
 

[quote=SKINSnCANES;412585]So by Brady breaking Mannings record this year does that end the "Brandy for Manning" argument. Because it used to be Mannings stats vs Bradys rings, now they both have rings, but brady has two more (possibly three), and his stats this year were top notch.[/quote]Yeah, this went from an argument that was acutally about philosophy and being able to seperate team achievement from individual achievement to an actual quarterback debate. Brady had the better year, pretty conclusively.

So what does this mean for the future? Pretty much, wait and see.

Re: Is Tom Brady the best QB ever?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;412691]Before this year, you would have been off your rocker if you thought you could even mention Brady with the likes of the all-time greats. Before this year, he hadn't really seperated himself from the Palmer's, Brees', Bulger's, or Hasselbeck's of the world despite playing on some historically great teams, and winning multiple super bowls. It was a joke after the super bowl last year to even compare him to Peyton Manning.[/quote]

This statement is garbage GTripp.

Re: Is Tom Brady the best QB ever?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;412720]True.

My only gripe with Romo is all the INTs he throws, but Favre had the same problem early in his career and he ended up ok.[/quote]McNabb is actually [URL="http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_int_perc_career.htm"]historically great [/URL]at avoiding interceptions.

McNabb's issue is that he has the benefit of one of the best running games in the NFL year in and year out, and the Eagles offense can't crack the top 5, seemingly ever. Thus, the argument can be made that the QB is holding them back.

P.S. Check out who hold the #3 spot on that list.

Re: Is Tom Brady the best QB ever?
 

[quote=wilsowilso;412722]This statement is garbage GTripp.[/quote]Actually, it's pretty darn factual.

Last year I asked you to find one season where Brady was even comprable to Manning. Couldn't be done.

Now it can. Now we have two sides to this debate.

Re: Is Tom Brady the best QB ever?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;412725]Actually, it's pretty darn factual.

Last year I asked you to find one season where Brady was even comprable to Manning. Couldn't be done.

Now it can. Now we have two sides to this debate.[/quote]

Peyton Mannings regular season heroics and gaudy stats was all you had to offer. Last year you gained ground because Manning went all the way finally and that happened after the fact by the way. This year it's clear Brady has pulled away again while Manning is back to his old ways of playoff futility. Great Quarterbacks Win in the Postseason. Manning's playoff record is so very average.

Re: Is Tom Brady the best QB ever?
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;412716]Dude, read my post very carefully and pay attention to the "in no particular order" part.[/QUOTE]

Guy, you say that but it looks like you did rank in order?

Re: Is Tom Brady the best QB ever?
 

[quote=wilsowilso;412727]Peyton Mannings regular season heroics and gaudy stats was all you had to offer. Last year you gained ground because Manning went all the way finally and that happened after the fact by the way. This year it's clear Brady has pulled away again while Manning is back to his old ways of playoff futility. Great Quarterbacks Win in the Postseason. Manning's playoff record is so very average.[/quote]I told you this last year, but this is a bad way of looking at it and will lead you astray in your analysis. Period.

You want to say that Brady is the best ever conclusively, and you are going to say as many ridiculous things as you need to to support this argument.

We already did the whole Manning v. Brady thing to no avail. Can you make any arguments that Brady is better than Favre? Marino? Montana or Young? Can you do it without blanket statements like "great quarterbacks win in the postseason" which is:

1) Absoultely vital to your argument
2) Something you have [B]assumed[/B] and have not done one thing to prove (what about the great quarterbacks who sometimes lose in the postseason for reasons beyond their control? Why should they be invalidated?)

I'll be around.

Re: Is Tom Brady the best QB ever?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;412733]We already did the whole Manning v. Brady thing to no avail. Can you make any arguments that Brady is better than Favre? Marino? Montana or Young? Can you do it without blanket statements like "great quarterbacks win in the postseason" which is:

1) Absoultely vital to your argument
2) Something you have [B]assumed[/B] and have not done one thing to prove

I'll be around.[/quote]

Oh don't worry. I knew great quarterbacks win in the postseason had no merit with you. 1) Yes winning championships is vital to my argument.
2) Winning champioships is the ultimate goal in sports. True or not. If it is the most important thing there is and I use it as an argument does that make me wrong?

Re: Is Tom Brady the best QB ever?
 

Tom Brady is one of the best, but he still has a long career ahead of him. For all we know, he could have a sucky second half of his career.

Re: Is Tom Brady the best QB ever?
 

[quote=QBall;412729]Guy, you say that but it looks like you did rank in order?[/quote]

guy? lol

that reminds me of the dane cook joke where he goes into a fast food place and they go back and forth calling each other 'bro' 'chief' and stuff, lol

Re: Is Tom Brady the best QB ever?
 

[quote=wilsowilso;412740]Oh don't worry. I knew great quarterbacks win in the postseason had no merit with you. 1) Yes winning championships is vital to my argument.
2) Winning champioships is the ultimate goal in sports. True or not. If it is the most important thing there is and I use it as an argument does that make me wrong?[/quote]Okay, I will give you this. Winning championships are the ultimate goal in sports. I agree. Brady has accomplished this three times, which is a great career, and he's still playing.

Now. Let's expound on this idea. If the ultimate goal is to win championships, as a team, then can we conclusively say that the quarterback who is on the team who wins the most championships is conclusively the best?

If the goal in the world of business is to make money, and the C.E.O. has the most critical role in making money for his business, then can it be said (absolutely conclusively) that whichever company is the most profitable has the best C.E.O.?

Why not? Because the C.E.O. is not directly responsible for many of the things that go into great business. Maybe he had great advisors, or a great business plan he stole (videotaped? too soon?) from another unit. Or maybe it was just the circumstance of the situation and he was simply in a really, really favorable market.

You don't know. Therefore, you can not conclusively say that the best C.E.O. in the world is the one who has the most profitable company. You can't say "there are millions of factors that go into determining profitability, but the only one that counts is who our C.E.O. is."

And you can not say that Brady is the best QB in the NFL simply because his team accomplished the ultimate goal. You can use it in your argument, but by itself is simply a terrible application of cause and effect. To my knowledge, that IS your argument, as you haven't bothered to dig any deeper.

I don't know who the C.E.O. of Google is, but I can only assume that he is the best executive officer in business? Does this make sense?

Re: Is Tom Brady the best QB ever?
 

[quote=SKINSnCANES;412744]guy? lol

that reminds me of the dane cook joke where he goes into a fast food place and they go back and forth calling each other 'bro' 'chief' and stuff, lol[/quote]

and he ends with gaylord!

Re: Is Tom Brady the best QB ever?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;412748]and he ends with gaylord![/quote]

:)

With the recession coming I should start saving ketchup packets to use as currency

Re: Is Tom Brady the best QB ever?
 

[quote=QBall;412729]Guy, you say that but it looks like you did rank in order?[/quote]

Bro, what can I say? They're not in any sort of order, I just wrote them down as they popped in my head.

Re: Is Tom Brady the best QB ever?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;412750]Bro, what can I say? They're not in any sort of order, I just wrote them down as they popped in my head.[/quote]Hahahaha.

Oh god...

Re: Is Tom Brady the best QB ever?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;412746]And you can not say that Brady is the best QB in the NFL simply because his team accomplished the ultimate goal. You can use it in your argument, but by itself is simply a terrible application of cause and effect.[/quote]

Look I agree that the best QB ever debate will never really go anywhere, but the Brady V Manning debate is a really good one. I don't and never did state Brady is the best QB in the NFL simply because his team accomplished the ultimate goal.

There are plenty more arguments that have been made, but I have to go somewhere and this will have to continue later.

Here is one of those arguments. Brady has made at least three average receivers that played for the Pats and left very very rich and when they leave his guidance they are back to what they were all along. Average. Givens, Branch and Patten. Look at Caldwell. He is average at best and Brady made him look much better than that. He makes players around him better. Tom Brady won three titles with an average offense. Yes a big part of the Pats is the coach and the D, but nonethless Brady wins with less firepower. I remind you this is only one of many arguements so don't give me this Brady won some rings big deal is that all you got assessment.

Re: Is Tom Brady the best QB ever?
 

[quote=wilsowilso;412753]Look I agree that the best QB ever debate will never really go anywhere, but the Brady V Manning debate is a really good one. I don't and never did state Brady is the best QB in the NFL simply because his team accomplished the ultimate goal.

There are plenty more arguments that have been made, but I have to go somewhere and this will have to continue later.

Here is one of those arguments. Brady has made at least three average receivers that played for the Pats and left very very rich and when they leave his guidance they are back to what they were all along. Average. Givens, Branch and Patten. Look at Caldwell. He is average at best and Brady made him look much better than that. He makes players around him better. Tom Brady won three titles with an average offense. Yes a big part of the Pats is the coach and the D, but nonethless Brady wins with less firepower. I remind you this is only one of many arguements so don't give me this Brady won some rings big deal is that all you got assessment.[/quote]Perhaps one of the reasons that the debate never went anywhere is because no one ever moved past the ridiculous rings argument. And this was hardly ever your issue, because you do seem like a person (as most of us are) with legitimate responsibilities that take far more importance over mindless internet bickering. So maybe that's why the Manning v Brady debate never got past the "rings" sillyness.

I've been re reading the old "Iceman" thread, and I must say that it's possible that my message have had some effect on the general Warpath populus because the arguments for Brady in this thread are 150 times stronger than in that old thread. Perhaps a lot of people opened their eyes when the guy known as "choker" beat "iceman" and won the superbowl, but in the grand scheme, that is all irrelivant.

Your argument in this post is something I will respect, and is totally legitimate in terms of building a case for Brady being better than Manning. It is many, many times more sensible than anything dealing with championships, which of course measure "fufilledness", not "skill".

That doesn't mean I don't have an explination for it.

What you have mentioned is the principle commonly known as the ability for great quarterbacks to make their receivers look better than they are. In football, there is an assumption that a completed pass is 50 % the skill of the quarterback, and 50 % the skill of the receiver.

However, all quarterbacks can maintain proven levels of production with different levels of receiver quality, and systems. Recievers simply can not produce when the quarterback is bad. If the quarterback is bad, the offense can't sustain, and even great receivers are totally irrelivant.

Think Moss on Oakland. Or Welker in Miami. Now pair them with Brady, a legitmately good to great quarterback, and you have historically awesome production. Clearly, Brady's job is easier when he's got Moss and Welker, but Brady was great (statistically) before he had them. Moss was nothing without Culpepper, and Welker was sometimes promising, but never had consistent production.

Put Reggie Wayne on Oakland. Does he become a bad player? No. Does the production go away? Yep.

Based on this, I can say that passing effiency is highly weighted to the talent of the QB. Being generous, you could say at least 70-30, but I would argue that it's more like 80-20.

That's why Manning's passing number's are legitimate. As a quarterback, he is in control of roughly 80 percent of his conventional statistical output. Prior to 2007, his numbers were more than 120 percent of what Brady's career numbers looked like. Therefore, if you deemed that Brady was playing with total scrubs, you'd still have to say Manning was better. Brady wasn't playing with total scrubs though, he had some elite tight ends.

Brady's numbers were way, way, way, way better this year. Surely you must have realized it. You can look at it as if he finally got the help at receiver, but based on the previous conclusion that Brady is over 80 percent responsible for his own statistics, there's no way Brady would have played as well as he did this year if he didn't make a big personel improvement.

Which is why I've come to realize my error in the Manning debate. My error wasn't anything I said about Manning being better at the time. It was my ignorance of Brady being a year and a half younger and having two fewer years of NFL experience. I didn't account for the fact that Manning was in his prime, and that Brady was potentially still improving.

Still, I find it hard to believe that Brady's 2007 is an accurate representation of how good he really is. If it turns out to be, then we can almost certainly agree with you that Brady is the best ever. I would bet my house though that he's going to decline a bit next year.

There were some good pro Brady arguments, it's just that no one bothered to make them because [B]they were too wrapped up in what he did over 13 playoff games, which is roughly equivlent to having a single good season.[/B]

Re: Is Tom Brady the best QB ever?
 

When I first thought of this I thought no, but I think now more and more that he might if he keeps putting up numbers like this for another 4 or so years. I have only seen him play one bad game out of perhaps 100 in his life and that was the play-off game vs Denver in 05 season. Montana and him are similar. To think he went in the 6th round!

Re: Is Tom Brady the best QB ever?
 

[quote=Campbell17;412776]When I first thought of this I thought no, but I think now more and more that he might if he keeps putting up numbers like this for another 4 or so years. I have only seen him play one bad game out of perhaps 100 in his life and that was the play-off game vs Denver in 05 season. Montana and him are similar. To think he went in the 6th round![/quote]Exactly.

I don't care who is catching passes for him. If he can do this for another 2-3 years, then he has to be the leading candidate to be the best QB of all time.

Until then, we'd just be jumping the gun. We can't assume that 2007 was anything but the best year Brady will ever have.

P.S. He was pretty horrible in the San Diego playoff game last year, and not too much better against San Diego this year.

Re: Is Tom Brady the best QB ever?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;412691]Let's just say I have very strong opinions on this one.

Before this year, you would have been off your rocker if you thought you could even mention Brady with the likes of the all-time greats. Before this year, he hadn't really seperated himself from the Palmer's, Brees', Bulger's, or Hasselbeck's of the world despite playing on some historically great teams, and winning multiple super bowls. It was a joke after the super bowl last year to even compare him to Peyton Manning.

One year later, he's definately got to be in the discussion.

I would say that in terms of great quarterback years, Brady's 2007 ranks third to only Steve Young's 1994, and Dan Marino's 1984 in terms of greatest year ever by a quarterback, and is pretty close to tied with Manning's 2004. (He broke the historic tenth year trend!)

Right now, Brady has yet to prove that 2007 was any more than an uncharacteristically great year for a pretty good quarterback. If he can replicate his numbers this year through the 2008 and 2009 seasons, then I think he should get some serious pull for best quarterback ever.[/quote]

A pretty good QB????? Huh??? Sorry but when a guy QB's 3 winning SB's and it could very well be a 4th, and he's the single biggest reason why they won those 3 SB's, I would call him a great QB. Throw out the statistical stuff. He's never had a great running back and never had a great wr until now and he still QB'd 3 winning SB's. Sometimes you can just look at a guy, and if you take him off the team they are probably not nearly as good. Troy Aikman is a prime example. Not a great stat qb but we all know he was a great QB. Same with Elway.

I would seperate him from all of those other guys because he's done it in the playoffs and SB's when it's counts the most. 3 TIMES. End of discussion.

Re: Is Tom Brady the best QB ever?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;412779]Exactly.

I don't care who is catching passes for him. If he can do this for another 2-3 years, then he has to be the leading candidate to be the best QB of all time.

Until then, we'd just be jumping the gun. We can't assume that 2007 was anything but the best year Brady will ever have.

P.S. He was pretty horrible in the San Diego playoff game last year, and not too much better against San Diego this year.[/quote]

He wasn't bad against SD. Sometimes a Qb gets in a situation where they have to force the ball instead of checking it down, which he did a few times. Horrible? No way. This year's game against SD was probably his worse game.

Re: Is Tom Brady the best QB ever?
 

I think Brady has been fortunate to play for the team he does. The Best Ever is so definite, whereas it's a very indefinitely kind of thing to compare him to others.

I can imagine to say he's one of the best ever, but one of. There are plenty of QBs before him that are just as good if not better. He's just fortunate to have played on teams that have been the total package.

Re: Is Tom Brady the best QB ever?
 

[quote=skinsfan69;412781]A pretty good QB????? Huh??? Sorry but when a guy QB's 3 winning SB's and it could very well be a 4th, and he's the single biggest reason why they won those 3 SB's, I would call him a great QB. Throw out the statistical stuff. He's never had a great running back and never had a great wr until now and he still QB'd 3 winning SB's. Sometimes you can just look at a guy, and if you take him off the team they are probably not nearly as good. Troy Aikman is a prime example. Not a great stat qb but we all know he was a great QB. Same with Elway.

I would seperate him from all of those other guys because he's done it in the playoffs and SB's when it's counts the most. 3 TIMES. End of discussion.[/quote]Fine great, whatever. Pretty good in the sense I used it was not trying to say "less than great" but rather generalize his talent level with all of the other really good quarterbacks. Totally unscientifically.

You know me well enough to know that if I want to say "player x is better than player y", I'll give numerical values so you know exactly how much better "x" is than "y". I won't rely on the ability for one to order "pretty good", "good", "great", and "kinda great" in terms of ability.

When you see a quarterback with a great media rep without the numbers to back it up, that's not a "great QB". It's definately not an indictment of the numbers. That's called "overrated".

Taking a guy off a roster is a good litmus test to try to tell just how good he is, but it doesn't matter if one doesn't do it properly. Take Brady off the Patriots from 03-06, replace him with Jon Kitna, and they still make the playoffs every year. They don't go as far in the playoffs, because obviously their offense isn't nearly as good, but they still win that division.

Take Brady off the Pats 03-06, replace him with Manning, and they still likely win two SBs in those 4 years. That's just common sense.

Clearly, it is impossible to overrate Brady's 2007 season. It was historically great. I'm just wondering why people couldn't wait until he had a season like this before they jumped the gun and called him the best ever.

Re: Is Tom Brady the best QB ever?
 

[quote=skinsfan69;412783]He wasn't bad against SD. Sometimes a Qb gets in a situation where they have to force the ball instead of checking it down, which he did a few times. Horrible? No way. This year's game against SD was probably his worse game.[/quote]I understand. I'm just saying that 3 interceptions in a single game is pretty horrible. Especially when your team is good enough to overcome not once, but both times.

Single game stats aren't nearly enough to say anything conclusive, but you can tell how good a guy is by looking at his career stats, and you can do it every time, as long as you respect the era he played in.

Re: Is Tom Brady the best QB ever?
 

[quote=celts32;412609]Yes...hands down he is. I give him most of the credit for the Pats. After having 1 winning season out of 5 in Cleveland, Belichek was 5-13 in the 1st 18 games of his coaching tenure with the Pats before Bledsoe got hurt and Brady entered the picture. They became a winning team imediately when Brady got on the field. 3 Super Bowls later and a 4th on the way it is clear that Tom Brady is the best QB of all time and by the time he retires there will be no discussion at all.[/quote]
The Qb's of today put up much bigger #'s because of the rulesthat have been put in by the NFL starting in 78 . Had Sonny, Staubach, Stabler played in todays NFL , they would have 4,000 yds 40 tds almost every year. Yes Brady will be in the discussion ,,, but has he ever had to beat defences like the Steel Curtain / No name / 85 bears , even some of Petibon's D's ? Lets not forget , many of there wins were , defence and that kicker ,,, and the "tuck " .

Re: Is Tom Brady the best QB ever?
 

I agree best ever does not apply to any QB past or present in the NFL. It is too subjective.
However Brady was not the 1st pick in the draft like Peyton Manning. I just don't understand why some people are so quick to downplay Brady's incredible HOF accomplishments when he wasn't even expected to be the starter much less a HOF'er. Why the hate?

1)Brady enters 2007 with a record of 82-26 (.759) in regular-season and playoff games. It is [B][COLOR="Red"]the best record of any NFL quarterback [/COLOR][/B]in the Super Bowl Era (since 1966) with at least 40 starts.

2) Brady enters 2007 with a 12-2 (.857) playoff record, the second best in NFL history behind Bart Starr (9-1, .900).

3) Brady enters 2007 as the [B]NFL's all-time leader[/B] in overtime wins without a defeat, recording a perfect 7-0 mark in overtime in his career. Terry Bradshaw is the only other quarterback to be undefeated in at least five overtime games, posting a 5-0 record.

4) He is just the fourth player in Super Bowl history to earn multiple SB MVP awards, joining Joe Montana, Terry Bradshaw and Bart Starr, all three of whom are enshrined in the Pro Football Hall of Fame.

Say what you want about the guy. But his accomplishments speaks volumes.

Re: Is Tom Brady the best QB ever?
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;412694]There will probably never be a consensus best ever. Why people feel the need to even debate it is beyond me.[/QUOTE]


I agree, we're talking about "Best Ever" but there has not been a QB mentioned who played thirty years ago. So in reality what we have here is what each individual remembers. Anything before they were born is excluded.

Re: Is Tom Brady the best QB ever?
 

[QUOTE=Defensewins;412830]I agree best ever does not apply to any QB past or present in the NFL. It is too subjective.
However Brady was not the 1st pick in the draft like Peyton Manning. I just don't understand why some people are so quick to downplay Brady's incredible HOF accomplishments when he wasn't even expected to be the starter much less a HOF'er. Why the hate?

1)Brady enters 2007 with a record of 82-26 (.759) in regular-season and playoff games. It is [B][COLOR="Red"]the best record of any NFL quarterback [/COLOR][/B]in the Super Bowl Era (since 1966) with at least 40 starts.

2) Brady enters 2007 with a 12-2 (.857) playoff record, the second best in NFL history behind Bart Starr (9-1, .900).

3) Brady enters 2007 as the [B]NFL's all-time leader[/B] in overtime wins without a defeat, recording a perfect 7-0 mark in overtime in his career. Terry Bradshaw is the only other quarterback to be undefeated in at least five overtime games, posting a 5-0 record.

4) He is just the fourth player in Super Bowl history to earn multiple SB MVP awards, joining Joe Montana, Terry Bradshaw and Bart Starr, all three of whom are enshrined in the Pro Football Hall of Fame.

Say what you want about the guy. But his accomplishments speaks volumes.[/QUOTE]A big reason the New England Patriots accomplished all those things you mention is because Brady is an awesome, super-skilled quarterback who gives his team a decisive advantage at the QB position in most games his team plays. He's a big reason for the success of his team.

Now, read the title of the thread again. This is what we are debating. And the answer is: possibly/maybe one day, but [B]certainly[/B] not yet.

If being reasonable is demeaning his accomplishments, then I am guilty.

Re: Is Tom Brady the best QB ever?
 

Id say Brady is a good QB but its hard for me to say he is a great QB. I have watched the Pats for years because I hate them and in my honest opinion it is a true team. I think Brady can make good throws and lead the team but I dont think he is a Montana, Elway, or a Marino. I really believe the Patriots teams are just a well oiled machine that is build by a great system that lets players play to there strengths. I think Brady is a really good QB but watching him play he isnt in the great class imo. Before this season his numbers werent really eye popping. Just my opinion. HTTR.

Re: Is Tom Brady the best QB ever?
 

[quote=The Gremlin;413052]I really believe the Patriots teams are just a well oiled machine that is build by a great system that lets players play to there strengths. I think Brady is a really good QB but watching him play he isnt in the great class imo. Before this season his numbers werent really eye popping. Just my opinion. HTTR.[/quote]

Keep telling yourself Brady is a system quarterback. Don't be blinded by numbers.

Re: Is Tom Brady the best QB ever?
 

how can people that say Brady is a systems qback, keep including Troy Aikman on any top 10 list? he was the ultimate systems qback, surrounded by stars

Re: Is Tom Brady the best QB ever?
 

[quote=wilsowilso;413132]Keep telling yourself Brady is a system quarterback. Don't be blinded by numbers.[/quote]Explain?

I don't really see where objective evidence tries to prove that Brady is a system QB. I totally disagree with the gremlin on this one, but by the tone of the response, it's almost like you are just assuming the evidence points to that.

It doesn't.

Re: Is Tom Brady the best QB ever?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;413150]Explain?

I don't really see where objective evidence tries to prove that Brady is a system QB. I totally disagree with the gremlin on this one, but by the tone of the response, it's almost like you are just assuming the evidence points to that.

It doesn't.[/quote]

Ha! I was making two seperate points, but I see now that it looks like I was addressing the system quarterback statement with an assault on the stats argument.