Re: Saunders Close to Deal with Rams
 

[quote=BDBohnzie;415266]It could very well be that Saunders was hamstrung by Gibbs. If that's the case (hindsight is always 20/20), perhaps Saunders should have stuck up more for Campbell (who supposedly wasn't the problem) before opening the offense up when Collins took over.

Snyder and Cerrato obviously see something we all don't see...take that as you will...I would have liked to see Saunders stick around for the long haul and watch Campbell run his offense to perfection. However, we won't and I wish Saunders luck in landing the Rams job and trying to turn that carnival sideshow of an offense back around.[/quote]

One thing that has always baffled me about the Collins period, I think a lot of people are assuming that Saunders "opened up the playbook" for him. Any proof or evidence of this?

The reason I pose the question is that it actually seems that they took more steps to protect Collins than they did JC. JC got hit in preseason when Heyer was playing & throughout the regular season when Heyer was in there, they still ran plays where Heyer was 1 on 1 & there was an empty backfield. As soon as Collins comes in, they keep a rb (sometimes 2) in to help Heyer & they even ran what looked like max protect w/a TE in a lot.

I know Collins isn't mobile, but why would you leave your young qb so vulnerable? It almost seemed that the O was more cautious on pass downs w/Collins, which on the surface seems to contradict the whole "open up the playbook" theory. Just a thought.

Re: Saunders Close to Deal with Rams
 

[B]WHAT IF?[/B]

Al Saunders goes to St. Louis Rams and the Rams return to being the greatest show on turf? What does that say about the Washington Redskins and their offensive personnel? Does that mean that the Redskin players are not talented or smart enough to run Saunders offense?

Re: Saunders Close to Deal with Rams
 

[QUOTE=freddyg12;415273]One thing that has always baffled me about the Collins period, I think a lot of people are assuming that Saunders "opened up the playbook" for him. Any proof or evidence of this?

The reason I pose the question is that it actually seems that they took more steps to protect Collins than they did JC. JC got hit in preseason when Heyer was playing & throughout the regular season when Heyer was in there, they still ran plays where Heyer was 1 on 1 & there was an empty backfield. As soon as Collins comes in, they keep a rb (sometimes 2) in to help Heyer & they even ran what looked like max protect w/a TE in a lot.

I know Collins isn't mobile, but why would you leave your young qb so vulnerable? It almost seemed that the O was more cautious on pass downs w/Collins, which on the surface seems to contradict the whole "open up the playbook" theory. Just a thought.[/QUOTE]
Could very well be, which is why I'm sitting here at my keyboard, instead of having my name on a door at Redskins Park ;)

But it would be hard to believe that Saunders didn't use his comfort level with Collins to do something different than what he did with Campbell. Saunders brought Collins in to help the transition to his offense go a lot smoother. Why wouldn't he have let Collins loose, knowing that he knows the system better than any QB in the league today?

Re: Saunders Close to Deal with Rams
 

[QUOTE=hail_2_da_skins;415276][B]WHAT IF?[/B]

Al Saunders goes to St. Louis Rams and the Rams return to being the greatest show on turf? What does that say about the Washington Redskins and their offensive personnel? Does that mean that the Redskin players are not talented or smart enough to run Saunders offense?[/QUOTE]
Nope. Just means that Gibbs had a big influence on how Saunders called his game...

Re: Saunders Close to Deal with Rams
 

[quote=IggyG;414518]Saunders is a way overrated anyhow.[/quote]

Care to back up your opinion?

AS is one of the top O coordinators in the league. His history proves it. He never really was allowed to "do what he does" here b/c of Gibbs. However w/ that being said our offense was coming along especially w/ Collins in there.

Anyhow, I'd just wanted to hear some reasons why a longtime, top 5 offensive coach year in and year out is overrated.

It's just funny how as soon as a redskin coach or player is out the door they get bashed immediately (AS was bashed while he was here too i guess).

Re: Saunders Close to Deal with Rams
 

Saunders wasn't given the benefit of the doubt here in Washington. Surely two years wasn't enough to judge him fairly. He was given an older QB last year who didn't have the wheels or the arm to make the big throws. Then he got a more physically talented QB, but far less experienced this year. At the end he got someone who knew how to run the offense and was able to execute it and got us to the playoffs. So he gets the boot after those two years? If Daniel Snyder didn't know that Joe Gibbs was handcuffing Al Saunders play calling then he truly doesn't know anything about football or worse, anything about his own team.

Re: Saunders Close to Deal with Rams
 

[quote=BDBohnzie;415277]Could very well be, which is why I'm sitting here at my keyboard, instead of having my name on a door at Redskins Park ;)

But it would be hard to believe that Saunders didn't use his comfort level with Collins to do something different than what he did with Campbell. Saunders brought Collins in to help the transition to his offense go a lot smoother. Why wouldn't he have let Collins loose, knowing that he knows the system better than any QB in the league today?[/quote]

True, and JC getting hurt might've scared Joe to the point that he told Al to max protect or keep Sellers &/or Portis in to block more.

It just seemed to me that JC could've made the same plays if given the extra protection. Until we got to seattle, collins had all day to throw in most of those games.

Re: Saunders Close to Deal with Rams
 

[QUOTE=firstdown;414520]So we can kick his butt when he comes back or we go there. I heard it takes two years to learn his system.[/QUOTE]


Yeah! Rams & Redskins both learning a new offense in the same year, should be interesting to see how much farther along the Rams will be with that 700 page playbook than we were in his first year here.

Re: Saunders Close to Deal with Rams
 

The Rams will be able to fast-track some of that learnin', since guys like Bruce and Holt were around the first time Saunders was in town.

Re: Saunders Close to Deal with Rams
 

[quote=QBall;415216]Now the Rams can wait over two years before their offense can gell and understand what plays to run and how to score tds.

Think about it, who in the NFL has three f'ing years to wait? Gibbs worst move in my veiw was giving the offense to AL. He stopped calling plays and there went a piece of the Hall of Fame with it.....[/quote]

Well STL didn't seem to have a problem picking up the offense when Kurt Warner came out of nowhere and won the SB. KC didn't seem to have a problem picking it up either. KC was a top 5 offense evey year Al was there.

Re: Saunders Close to Deal with Rams
 

[quote=Drift Reality;415218]I feel like I'm starting to become a Saunders apologist and I don't even think that much of him, but in my opinion, all this criticism is sort of ridiculous.

When he had his guy in there at QB I think we saw the potential of the offense to move up and down the field at will.

Would you idiots please be reasonable.[/quote]

THANK YOU.

Re: Saunders Close to Deal with Rams
 

[quote=hail_2_da_skins;415276][B]WHAT IF?[/B]

Al Saunders goes to St. Louis Rams and the Rams return to being the greatest show on turf? What does that say about the Washington Redskins and their offensive personnel? Does that mean that the Redskin players are not talented or smart enough to run Saunders offense?[/quote]

Marc Bulger, when he is healthy and has a good O-line, is probably a better qb than JC at this point of their careers. Steven Jackson should be a superstar. Holt is better than anyone we currently have at WR. STL just needs to get a better line and myabe another wr and they will be tough to stop. I remember when we played them in 06 and they just went off on our defense.

Re: Saunders Close to Deal with Rams
 

Saunders situation is unique. I think lot of the Saunders bashers need to take in to account that the players also bare some of the responsibility of the last two seasons. Saunders had to deal with a very green Campbell and all of his growing pains. Saunders did not throw the interceptions at the end of the Giants and Dallas loses that cost us the games.
I am tired of the NFL tradition of firing someone, usually a coordinator when
things do not go perfectly. They need a fall guy. It is not a magic pill situation to assume a new coordinator will cure all that is wrong with the offense.

Re: Saunders Close to Deal with Rams
 

Good luck to Coach Saunders I do hope he does well in St. Louis, just not well when he plays us in 08!

Re: Saunders Close to Deal with Rams
 

[B]It's official[/B] [B]he has signed with the Rams[/B] to be the OC according to JLC and ESPN. [url=http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3222836]ESPN - Saunders gets 3-year deal as Rams' new offensive coordinator - NFL[/url]

Re: Saunders Close to Deal with Rams
 

JLC Redskin Insider: Al, and a few other coaching moves, his son Bob, Lazor. Will Byner stay?

Meanwhile, here's a news update:
The St. Louis Rams have hired Al Saunders as offensive coordinator, according to an Associated Press report out of St. Louis. LaCanfora says that it's virutually certain that Saunders' son Bob, a Redskins assistant, will join his father there. QBs coach Bill Lazor, whose responsibilities will be taken over by Zorn, could end up in St. Louis as well. ... League sources say RBs coach Earnest Byner had a strong interview Tuesday in Tampa Bay, but the Buccaneers intend to interview one more candidate before making a decision. Byner's contract with the Redskins expires Thursday (Jan. 31) and he is the only coach not under contract for 2008. He is mulling a one-year offer from the Redskins.

Re: Saunders Close to Deal with Rams
 

Am I so wrong for wanting them to hire GW as well?

Re: Saunders Close to Deal with Rams
 

Al Saunders will have a top 5 offense in this league. Believe that!

Re: Saunders Close to Deal with Rams
 

[quote=Sean"Big Hurt"Taylor;415502]Al Saunders will have a top 5 offense in this league. Believe that![/quote]

I'll take that bet. In fact I'll do you one better. I bet you the Redskins will have a better ranked offense in points and ypg then the Rams. Though I don't believe they'll finish in the top 5.

Re: Saunders Close to Deal with Rams
 

[QUOTE=Sean"Big Hurt"Taylor;415502]Al Saunders will have a top 5 offense in this league. Believe that![/QUOTE]

I agree. I am sure the Rams will let him do what he is being brought there to do. There wont be a 2 year learning curve, the Rams will be humming by week 3 or 4.

Re: Saunders Close to Deal with Rams
 

[QUOTE=irish;415673]I agree. I am sure the Rams will let him do what he is being brought there to do. There wont be a 2 year learning curve, the Rams will be humming by week 3 or 4.[/QUOTE]

Oh really? They have a QB who's best days are far behind him with a terrible offensive line and aging wideouts, tight end?? The worst decision of Gibbs career was to listen to all the experts after our Playoff loss to Seattle. He stopped calling plays for the first time and went out to get Saunders. Gibbs was not the problem in 05' it was Brunnel and no real talent passing besides Moss that year. Gibbs started 6-10 (gets a pass in my book 1st year back) then he won 11 games!! I don't see why he changes the entire system at that point.

Al is a good coach but an entire offensive change was not a good call. Then when he's in Gibbs doesn't like what he is seeing and all of a sudden pulls control from him. Al wan't to blame there. Our offense did show flashes of greatness but also the play calling of Saunders could be questioned in my opinion at times. A reverse to Moss in GB with the lead? Awful call. Gmen game on the goal-line, awful. His redzone plays sucked both years!

Re: Saunders Close to Deal with Rams
 

Not quite sure how Marc Bulger has his best days far behind him? If anything, he's starting to blossom. He's 30, a 2 time Pro Bowler, and very capable of leading the Rams to the playoffs...if he can stay healthy. An offensive line (which the Rams are notorious for lacking) will help with that. And while Holt (31) and Bruce (36) are aging, they are still very capable receivers. Plus they have Randy McMichael, a very good pass-catching TE. And with the development of Brian Leonard, have 2 solid running backs. Al Saunders will have a field day with these guys...

Re: Saunders Close to Deal with Rams
 

[QUOTE=BDBohnzie;415761]Not quite sure how Marc Bulger has his best days far behind him? If anything, he's starting to blossom. He's 30, a 2 time Pro Bowler, and very capable of leading the Rams to the playoffs...if he can stay healthy. An offensive line (which the Rams are notorious for lacking) will help with that. And while Holt (31) and Bruce (36) are aging, they are still very capable receivers. Plus they have Randy McMichael, a very good pass-catching TE. And with the development of Brian Leonard, have 2 solid running backs. Al Saunders will have a field day with these guys...[/QUOTE]


Bulger has looked pretty average past few years. No line means no running game. Look at the fantasy bust of the year Jackson. A stud with nowhere to run. Randy McMichael is out of shape and just a name on a jersey now. He got into substance abuse in Miami and looked bad last year, maybe he turns it around? Rutgers Brian Leonard? Ok that's not really a bigtime player.

Al Saunders is like anyone who gets FIRED, need to keep the paychecks coming in while he's still able to coach and not lay down all day like most senior citizens.

Re: Saunders Close to Deal with Rams
 

If he stays healthy, Steven Jackson will rush for 2000 yards and have 800 receiving. The Rams biggest problem last year was injuries (even more than us). And don't be suprised to see them take Jake Long to shore up the line with Pace having trouble staying healthy.

Re: Saunders Close to Deal with Rams
 

[quote=Longtimefan;415288]Yeah! Rams & Redskins both learning a new offense in the same year, should be interesting to see how much farther along the Rams will be with that 700 page playbook than we were in his first year here.[/quote]
Greg Blache probably knows it better than the Rams will when they come to FedEx.

Re: Saunders Close to Deal with Rams
 

[QUOTE=rypper11;415769]If he stays healthy, Steven Jackson will rush for 2000 yards and have 800 receiving. The Rams biggest problem last year was injuries (even more than us). And don't be suprised to see them take Jake Long to shore up the line with Pace having trouble staying healthy.[/QUOTE]

Doubt you will see Jackson 2000 / 800.

LT maybe!

Re: Saunders Close to Deal with Rams
 

Gus:

Skins
Lions
Broncos
Bengals
Vikings
Dolphins
Rams
2008 = ?

He should come back. He's used to moving. Collins will be useless without Saunders and he SHOULD follow him to St. Louie.

So we'll be down to Campbell and Brunell in his final year. We need another QB.

I'm fine with bringing Gus back. I liked him while he was here, until he headbutted the wall and hurt his neck. He still occasionally has flashes of talent...all we need for a backup anyways.

Maybe we'll draft another QB in the later rounds.

Re: Saunders Close to Deal with Rams
 

[QUOTE=Buster;415784]Gus:

Skins
Lions
Broncos
Bengals
Vikings
Dolphins
Rams
2008 = ?

He should come back. He's used to moving. Collins will be useless without Saunders and he SHOULD follow him to St. Louie.

So we'll be down to Campbell and Brunell in his final year. We need another QB.

I'm fine with bringing Gus back. I liked him while he was here, until he headbutted the wall and hurt his neck. He still occasionally has flashes of talent...all we need for a backup anyways.

Maybe we'll draft another QB in the later rounds.[/QUOTE]


I think we should sign Collins. That would be best for our 08' QB situation. How many years has Collins followed Saunders and he did bring him to Washington but who gave him real playing time? WASHINGTON!

Re: Saunders Close to Deal with Rams
 

I totally agree with using a draft pick this year on a QB. Maybe Flacco will drop to the 3rd and the skins can get him. I have said it before, I would not be surprised to see another QB really push or take JC's job away. We have to clear Brunell's money off of us!

Re: Saunders Close to Deal with Rams
 

[QUOTE=ksmitty7723;415787]I totally agree with using a draft pick this year on a QB. Maybe Flacco will drop to the 3rd and the skins can get him. I have said it before, I would not be surprised to see another QB really push or take JC's job away. We have to clear Brunell's money off of us![/QUOTE]

Snyder hires Zorn with JC in mind! He's not losing his job to anyone.

Why waste pick on QB in 3rd round? We could use that one Defensive lineman, CB, or WR.

Sign Collins if possible.

Re: Saunders Close to Deal with Rams
 

Signing Collins will be a waste without Saunders. What has Jason done after a full year of starting to say he is irreplaceable? Late picks against TB and Dallas? Don't get me wrong, I like him and root for JC, but let's don't get ahead of ourselves. And another thing, do you really think Zorn took the job by looking at the QB situation?

Re: Saunders Close to Deal with Rams
 

[QUOTE=QBall;415765]Bulger has looked pretty average past few years. No line means no running game. Look at the fantasy bust of the year Jackson. A stud with nowhere to run. Randy McMichael is out of shape and just a name on a jersey now. He got into substance abuse in Miami and looked bad last year, maybe he turns it around? Rutgers Brian Leonard? Ok that's not really a bigtime player.[/QUOTE]

Jackson ran for 1000 last year behind a line more riddled with injuries than the Skins line. And did it in 12 games. On top of that, he had another 38 catches. A 2000/800 season isn't that unrealistic if the Rams can sure up their O-Line. McMichael was 3rd on the Rams last year in catches and receiving yards. And while Leonard isn't a big time player, he's a solid backup.

As far as Bulger being average, in 2006, he passed for over 4300 yards (3rd in NFL), 24 TDs (T-4th)/8 INTs (Lowest among starters). Those aren't average numbers...

Re: Saunders Close to Deal with Rams
 

[QUOTE=BDBohnzie;415790]Jackson ran for 1000 last year behind a line more riddled with injuries than the Skins line. And did it in 12 games. On top of that, he had another 38 catches. A 2000/800 season isn't that unrealistic if the Rams can sure up their O-Line. McMichael was 3rd on the Rams last year in catches and receiving yards. And while Leonard isn't a big time player, he's a solid backup.

As far as Bulger being average, in 2006, he passed for over 4300 yards (3rd in NFL), 24 TDs (T-4th)/8 INTs (Lowest among starters). Those aren't average numbers...[/QUOTE]

Stats are not the only barometer.

03' Rams 12-4 Bulger 22td-22int
04' Rams 8-8 Bulger 21td-14int
05' Rams 6-10 Bulger 14td-9int
06' Rams 8-8 Bulger 24td-8int
07' Rams 3-13 Bulger 11td-15int

So you're telling me he made playoffs in 03' and has shit the bed since and he's ready to explode with Saunders? Ok buddy. Jackon no doubt is a star but wins are more important.

Re: Saunders Close to Deal with Rams
 

[QUOTE=QBall;415793]Stats are not the only barometer.

03' Rams 12-4 Bulger 22td-22int
04' Rams 8-8 Bulger 21td-14int
05' Rams 6-10 Bulger 14td-9int
06' Rams 8-8 Bulger 24td-8int
07' Rams 3-13 Bulger 11td-15int

So you're telling me he made playoffs in 03' and has shit the bed since and he's ready to explode with Saunders? Ok buddy. Jackon no doubt is a star but wins are more important.[/QUOTE]
Bulger's starts those seasons: '03 - 15, '04 - 14, '05 - 8, '06 - 16, '07 - 12

While I agree wins are important, one must remember that the Rams defense shit the bed as well.
'03 - 16th
'04 - 17th
'05 - 30th
'06 - 23rd
'07 - 21st

Can't pin team records on just the QB...I think offensively under Saunders, the Rams will do well. It's the defense that is going to be the key factor.

Re: Saunders Close to Deal with Rams
 

[QUOTE=QBall;415765]Bulger has looked pretty average past few years. No line means no running game. Look at the fantasy bust of the year Jackson. A stud with nowhere to run. Randy McMichael is out of shape and just a name on a jersey now. He got into substance abuse in Miami and looked bad last year, maybe he turns it around? Rutgers Brian Leonard? Ok that's not really a bigtime player.

Al Saunders is like anyone who gets FIRED, need to keep the paychecks coming in while he's still able to coach and not lay down all day like most senior citizens.[/QUOTE]

IMO, Saunders was limited by a QB that is just too slow with the ball. When Collins came in and the ball finally started coming out fast we got a taste of what the O could have been.

Today's NFL is a passing game but Gibbs never could come to terms with that (I think because he had no faith in his QB or WRs to do it).

Re: Saunders Close to Deal with Rams
 

[QUOTE=BDBohnzie;415801]Bulger's starts those seasons: '03 - 15, '04 - 14, '05 - 8, '06 - 16, '07 - 12

While I agree wins are important, one must remember that the Rams defense shit the bed as well.
'03 - 16th
'04 - 17th
'05 - 30th
'06 - 23rd
'07 - 21st

Can't pin team records on just the QB...I think offensively under Saunders, the Rams will do well. It's the defense that is going to be the key factor.[/QUOTE]

Looks to me like we both agree Bulger is average.

Re: Saunders Close to Deal with Rams
 

Well now that he is gone I'll let you guys in on a secret. People blamed Gibbs for not getting the plays in and poor clock mangament. The problem was that 700 page play book. It took too long to thumb through the 700 pages and find the play then call it in. If you notice most coaches have all their plays on a two sided sheet not on 700 pages.

Re: Saunders Close to Deal with Rams
 

[quote=QBall;415765]Bulger has looked pretty average past few years. No line means no running game. Look at the fantasy bust of the year Jackson. A stud with nowhere to run. Randy McMichael is out of shape and just a name on a jersey now. He got into substance abuse in Miami and looked bad last year, maybe he turns it around? Rutgers Brian Leonard? Ok that's not really a bigtime player.

Al Saunders is like anyone who gets FIRED, need to keep the paychecks coming in while he's still able to coach and not lay down all day like most senior citizens.[/quote]

I play in a 4 player keeper league and I've had Jackson since he was a rookie. When he has a line in front of him you see what he is capable of. Look at his 06 season? He's a great back and he'll explode this year if STL can sure up the line. He almost had 1,000 yards while missing 5 1/2 games and playing behind one of the worst lines I've ever seen. Same with Bulger. He's a top tier QB when he has the players around him although he's a little fragile IMO.