Re: Well, just like old times..
 

After watching Moss fumble, drop passes, and limp his way through last season I've lost most of my faith in him as a #1 WR. He would be much better suited as a #2, and ARE as the #3.

Re: Well, just like old times..
 

I think that alot of times we think Dan is overhauling all the time, but that is because we have too many head coaching changes. If we can get coaching positions stabilized, we will be fine. A new coach probably will have different styles than the previous (I sure hope so in this case!!), so maybe Zorn wants him in there. If Dan wasn't aggressive in getting players, people would complain, and now he is determined to build a winner and do it at all cost, and people complain.

Re: Well, just like old times..
 

I say no to Briggs and no to Chad Johnson. If we could somehow get Johnson in a good deal then that would be my first choice. Linebackers are a dime a dozen. Briggs wants way way way too much money and Johnson probably does too. Johnson is the player that could dramatically help our team though.

Re: Well, just like old times..
 

I am sort of the other way around. Defense wins Championships (Ask NE). Briggs would bring great stability to a suspect linebacking core. McIntosh shaky return time, Godfrey talking retirement or going to Jax with Williams, Marcus Washington has been hurt over the last three years. We can get a WR in the draft.

Re: Well, just like old times..
 

letting rock go is the most disturbing part of that article. It's just another example of how dumb & dumber have no clue how to build a team. All that interests them is fantasy stats...guys who catch the ball guys who throw the ball and defenders who sack the QB. That's how they think. Good teams are made up of guys like Rock who think team first and do their job well. That's not exciting enough for the Danny...

Re: Well, just like old times..
 

Not to sound like Iverson, but are we talking about a return man? Betts and his 5 million dollars cannot reassume that role? In the hay day of the skins, we kept position "team" players around, not return men!

Re: Well, just like old times..
 

[quote]We can get a WR in the draft.[/quote]

WRs have such a high bust rate and they take quite some time to develop. Why do we see so many of the star receivers in their 30s? Most of them don't come on until their late 20's. I don't think I buy completely into your talk about NYs defense was what won that game. NY's D line was what won that game, and I believe NE's defense was only ranked two slots lower than NYG's defense. I don't feel like Briggs will be worth his paycheck when everything is said and done.

[quote]letting rock go is the most disturbing part of that article. It's just another example of how dumb & dumber have no clue how to build a team. All that interests them is fantasy stats...guys who catch the ball guys who throw the ball and defenders who sack the QB. That's how they think. Good teams are made up of guys like Rock who think team first and do their job well. That's not exciting enough for the Danny...[/quote]
This proves to me they are building a team. Don't get me wrong, I really like Rock and would love for him to stay, but there's this thing called a salary cap. Most teams have gotten rid of specialized punt/kick returners for a reason. While rock was solid, he was far from electrifying in that position. He's a 3rd string running back coming to the end of his rookie contract and he's not coming back for free. However, we can sign a guy off the practice squad such as Marcus Mason for far cheaper and we won't see much, if any, drop off in productivity. In the NFL today you have to be able to let players go, it's hard for us fans but it's business.

Re: Well, just like old times..
 

Ok ok, I admit I used wrong word.. Obviously.. But what I meant is we are going to go on shopping spree because if the trade for Chad Johnson happens - we won't have 1st rd pick and probably more.. We need those picks to draft some players such as Lineman or whatever Zorn and team feel whichever position is pressing.. As for Lance Briggs, I can understand the move due to Rocky's injury issues.. But Lance wants a BIG contract and I don't think we could afford him but it has never stopped Snyder from luring a player with money before.. Not even the cap salary..

Re: Well, just like old times..
 

How can you bring in any big name offensive free agents when we don't even know how our core will handle themselves playing the west coast offense?

We should save our big offensive aquistions for next year after we see our deficiencies on offense this coming year.

Re: Well, just like old times..
 

Our deficiencies are that we have no big physical WR's. How many good WR's in the league are 5'9 and below? First one was Welker (#11 in receiving yards).

Re: Well, just like old times..
 

[QUOTE=celts32;421217]letting rock go is the most disturbing part of that article. It's just another example of how dumb & dumber have no clue how to build a team. All that interests them is fantasy stats...guys who catch the ball guys who throw the ball and defenders who sack the QB. That's how they think. Good teams are made up of guys like Rock who think team first and do their job well. That's not exciting enough for the Danny...[/QUOTE]

In the NFL this year, among returners who had 20 or more kick returns, Rock Cartwright was #8 with an average of 25.8 yards per return.
The others were:
1. Josh Cribbs
2. Andre Davis
3. Aundrae Allison
4. Leon Washington
5. Darren Sproles
6. Maurice Jones-Drew
7. Ellis Hobbs
8. Rock

According to the Times: [url=http://www.washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071222/SPORTS01/88360794/-1/RSS_SPORT]Redskins' Rock seeks hefty contract - - The Washington Times, America's Newspaper[/url]
"I would love to stay, but it's up to the front office," said Cartwright, whose salary cap figure this season is $680,000. "[NFL punt return leader] Roscoe Parrish just got [[B]$4.35 million[/B]] [B]guaranteed[/B] [in a [B]three-year[/B], [B]$10 million deal[/B]] from Buffalo. I don't expect to match that, but [B]I want something similar[/B], some type of security."

Before we crucify the FO on this, let's see what his contract demands are. Then ask whether those terms are "fair" for a guy who is the [U]8th[/U] best return guy in terms of yards per return. Everybody gets on the FO for overpaying players, so lets see how this shakes out.

Re: Well, just like old times..
 

[quote=onlydarksets;421175]Yep, and Moss is 31 this year, Reggie Wayne 30, and Torry Holt 32. That's half of the top 10 receivers in the league (including 4 of the top 5 in yardage). I have no problem getting a 30-year old receiver if he can be productive.[/quote]

A lot of you guys are also forgetting that Chad is a workout warrior, so if worst comes to worst he will be productive for up to 6 more years. Mark my words Chad Johnson will be a Redskin next year.

Re: Well, just like old times..
 

[quote=celts32;421217]letting rock go is the most disturbing part of that article. It's just another example of how dumb & dumber have no clue how to build a team. All that interests them is fantasy stats...guys who catch the ball guys who throw the ball and defenders who sack the QB. That's how they think. Good teams are made up of guys like Rock who think team first and do their job well. That's not exciting enough for the Danny...[/quote]

Rock is the one that wants out, he wants to expand his role and run the ball more, that's just not going to happen here.

Do you want them to overpay for a return man?

Re: Well, just like old times..
 

[quote=celts32;421217]letting rock go is the most disturbing part of that article. It's just another example of how dumb & dumber have no clue how to build a team. All that interests them is fantasy stats...guys who catch the ball guys who throw the ball and defenders who sack the QB. That's how they think. Good teams are made up of guys like Rock who think team first and do their job well. That's not exciting enough for the Danny...[/quote]
Yea who wants players that catch the ball, throw the ball and defenders who sack the Qb. That stuff is way overated these days.

Re: Well, just like old times..
 

[QUOTE=Dirtbag359;421229]A lot of you guys are also forgetting that Chad is a workout warrior, so if worst comes to worst he will be productive for up to 6 more years. Mark my words Chad Johnson will be a Redskin next year.[/QUOTE]

We speak the same words

Re: Well, just like old times..
 

After reading the posts of the wise men here, I admit that I was a little unbalanced in my view of the article. the main reason it bothered me initially was the CJ talk. I hope he's not coming here & if he does, I really hope we don't give up too many picks. Let the bengals shop him w/their high demands.

I see another major problem w/this. IF CJ really expects a new deal but that can't be taken care of before a trade is made, then he'd be unhappy till he gets the $ he wants. I think he's got 3-5 good to great years at least but he's also capable of causing serious problems w/the team. To play devil's advocate on my own position, if we got him for a 3rd round pick & didn't sign him to a new deal (believe he has 3 yrs. remaining), he would be good value if he behaves well.

There was definitely some really good news in the article re: the D. I love that Blache has called his vets & told them he plans to keep them; Springs, Daniels & Griffin. And I love that Blache wants to rebuild his D through the draft. I would like to see Briggs here but not for $20 mil guaranteed, which is about what he'll be after. I now see our draft order being 1) DE & 2) CB.

Re: Well, just like old times..
 

[QUOTE=redwagonskins;421228]In the NFL this year, among returners who had 20 or more kick returns, Rock Cartwright was #8 with an average of 25.8 yards per return.
The others were:
1. Josh Cribbs
2. Andre Davis
3. Aundrae Allison
4. Leon Washington
5. Darren Sproles
6. Maurice Jones-Drew
7. Ellis Hobbs
8. Rock

According to the Times: [url=http://www.washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071222/SPORTS01/88360794/-1/RSS_SPORT]Redskins' Rock seeks hefty contract*-*-*The Washington Times, America's Newspaper[/url]
"I would love to stay, but it's up to the front office," said Cartwright, whose salary cap figure this season is $680,000. "[NFL punt return leader] Roscoe Parrish just got [[B]$4.35 million[/B]] [B]guaranteed[/B] [in a [B]three-year[/B], [B]$10 million deal[/B]] from Buffalo. I don't expect to match that, but [B]I want something similar[/B], some type of security."

Before we crucify the FO on this, let's see what his contract demands are. Then ask whether those terms are "fair" for a guy who is the [U]8th[/U] best return guy in terms of yards per return. Everybody gets on the FO for overpaying players, so lets see how this shakes out.[/QUOTE]

You make a good point. We will see what his demands are and what the market bears before making judgements. This article makes it seem like he is not even in their plans.

Re: Well, just like old times..
 

[quote=freddyg12;421241]After reading the posts of the wise men here, I admit that I was a little unbalanced in my view of the article. the main reason it bothered me initially was the CJ talk. I hope he's not coming here & if he does, I really hope we don't give up too many picks. Let the bengals shop him w/their high demands.

I see another major problem w/this. IF CJ really expects a new deal but that can't be taken care of before a trade is made, then he'd be unhappy till he gets the $ he wants. I think he's got 3-5 good to great years at least but he's also capable of causing serious problems w/the team. [B]To play devil's advocate on my own position, if we got him for a 3rd round pick & didn't sign him to a new deal (believe he has 3 yrs. remaining), he would be good value if he behaves well.[/B]

There was definitely some really good news in the article re: the D. I love that Blache has called his vets & told them he plans to keep them; Springs, Daniels & Griffin. And I love that Blache wants to rebuild his D through the draft. I would like to see Briggs here but not for $20 mil guaranteed, which is about what he'll be after. I now see our draft order being 1) DE & 2) CB.[/quote]

With the way this front office operates, you can bet they would sign him to a new deal pretty quickly after the trade.

Re: Well, just like old times..
 

I'm not freaking out since, at this point, the CJ-talk is not much more than speculation. And, even if we traded for CJ, I wouldn't freak out since we do need a #1 WR. BUT, I'd certainly be against trading 1-2 first day picks and/or players for CJ.

Re: Well, just like old times..
 

[QUOTE=celts32;421242]You make a good point. We will see what his demands are and what the market bears before making judgements. [B]This article makes it seem like he is not even in their plans[/B].[/QUOTE]

I understand the concern. Trying to understand what is going on in Redskin park is sometimes like trying to get info from behind the iron curtain in the Cold War. Sometimes, it's best to take a wait and see attitude...then get pissed off ;)

Re: Well, just like old times..
 

[QUOTE=firstdown;421237]Yea who wants players that catch the ball, throw the ball and defenders who sack the Qb. That stuff is way overated these days.[/QUOTE]
You need those players but you can't build a team with 53 Pro Bowlers...teams need guys like Rock. Ask Gibbs if Rock is what he would call a "core Redskin". As I said in the post above, maybe some other team will overpay him then I agree we need to move on. My comment was based on thinking that the article was implying that the redskins didn't even want Rock back.

Re: Well, just like old times..
 

[quote=freddyg12;421241]After reading the posts of the wise men here, I admit that I was a little unbalanced in my view of the article. the main reason it bothered me initially was the CJ talk. I hope he's not coming here & if he does, I really hope we don't give up too many picks. Let the bengals shop him w/their high demands.

I see another major problem w/this. IF CJ really expects a new deal but that can't be taken care of before a trade is made, then he'd be unhappy till he gets the $ he wants. I think he's got 3-5 good to great years at least but he's also capable of causing serious problems w/the team. To play devil's advocate on my own position, if we got him for a 3rd round pick & didn't sign him to a new deal (believe he has 3 yrs. remaining), he would be good value if he behaves well.
[B]
There was definitely some really good news in the article re: the D. I love that Blache has called his vets & told them he plans to keep them; Springs, Daniels & Griffin. And I love that Blache wants to rebuild his D through the draft. I would like to see Briggs here but not for $20 mil guaranteed, which is about what he'll be after. I now see our draft order being 1) DE & 2) CB.[/quote]

[/B]I was really glad when I saw it in the article too..

Re: Well, just like old times..
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;421236]Rock is the one that wants out, he wants to expand his role and run the ball more, that's just not going to happen here.

Do you want them to overpay for a return man?[/QUOTE]

No of course not...I want them to value the role that he played on the team and offer him a fair deal to remain in that capacity. if he gets an offer that is to high for what he does for us then we wish him well and move on. I thought JLC implied the redskins didn't even want him back.

Re: Well, just like old times..
 

[quote=celts32;421248]No of course not...I want them to value the role that he played on the team and offer him a fair deal to remain in that capacity. if he gets an offer that is to high for what he does for us then we wish him well and move on. I thought JLC implied the [B]redskins didn't even want him back[/B].[/quote]

They don't... not if he really wants a "hefty" contract.

Re: Well, just like old times..
 

[quote=celts32;421248]No of course not...I want them to value the role that he played on the team and offer him a fair deal to remain in that capacity. if he gets an offer that is to high for what he does for us then we wish him well and move on. I thought JLC implied the redskins didn't even want him back.[/quote]

I'd love to see Rock stay, but my guess is that they have no intention of trying to sign him, or at least aren't in any hurry to. From a roster standpoint, I think Rock's value is very limited. He's a great special teamer, better in coverage than he is in the return game. He doesn't have speed or moves to create anything on his own. He's certainly not even a backup caliber rb in the nfl. He would be easy to replace & we can get a better rb on the roster very cheaply.

The only thing we can't replace is his team spirit. He's shown that he's a great team player & it will be sad to see him go if he does. Gibbs' retirement was probably the worst thing for his chances to get re-signed.

Re: Well, just like old times..
 

If Rock Cartwright thinks he is getting some big contract and the opportunity to be a featured tailback he is on crack. I will say good luck to him because he has played great for us in the role he was born to play which is special teams in the NFL.

Re: Well, just like old times..
 

[quote=celts32;421246]You need those players but you can't build a team with 53 Pro Bowlers...teams need guys like Rock. Ask Gibbs if Rock is what he would call a "core Redskin". As I said in the post above, maybe some other team will overpay him then I agree we need to move on. My comment was based on thinking that the article was implying that the redskins didn't even want Rock back.[/quote]
I'm sure the skins want him back next year its the $ that he may want and maybe he is looking at playing some running back. The only way that happens here is if we get hit by injuries. I just don't like how people bash Snyder and Vinny for things that have not even happened.

Re: Well, just like old times..
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;421249]They don't... not if he really wants a "hefty" contract.[/QUOTE]

He's nuts if he thinks he's getting a hefty deal. He's a backup RB and a special teamer. I like him as a locker room guy...you subtract to many guys like him and all of a sudden any shread of the chemistry this team formed is gone. But his on field play does not warrent a big salary. I really can't see anyone in the league offering him a hefty contract and a chance to start. And if they do I will drive him to the airport.

Re: Well, just like old times..
 

What about Limas Sweed (6'4" 220 4.45) with the 21st?

Re: Well, just like old times..
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;421206]After watching Moss fumble, drop passes, and limp his way through last season I've lost most of my faith in him as a #1 WR. He would be much better suited as a #2, and ARE as the #3.[/QUOTE]

Yeah that's hard to argure with you on your point. I still feel he can be a number 1 wideout when healthy.

I personally love the JLC coverage but he's full of shit sometimes. He always posts the idiot bloggers freaking out and gives them way too much credit. I also don't like how he bad mouthed the coaching search by saying our HC position had been devalued bla bla bla bla.....

Re: Well, just like old times..
 

[quote=onlydarksets;421088]How is this like old times? There are only two changes mentioned:[LIST][*]We desperately need a possession and playmaking receiver - CJ fits that bill.[*]Our LBs are pretty dinged up - Lance Briggs fills that need.[/LIST]What's shocking is the attempt at consistency and avoiding aging vets:[LIST][*]JC has the full support of Snyder and VC - [U]screw that, can you say "QB controversy"?[/U][*]We aren't going after Collins - [U]what?!? We aren't throwing insane money at a 2-year player? Yeah, sounds just like old times to me![/U][*]We aren't re-signing Brunell - [U](see comment for Collins)[/U][*]We are looking into Dilfer, a backup who knows the offense - [U]that's CRAZY talk, right there[/U].[*]Snyder wants to make sure the players we have (Moss/ARE) stay healthy - [U]Bring me Snyder's head![/U][*]We aren't throwing money at Rock just to do returns? [U]The madness![/U][*]The Skins are going to use Lorenzo Alexander and Heyer to beef up the O-line and Wilson on the D-line - [U]I can't believe we are going to groom players we drafted (or picked up undrafted) as starters. VC is a lackey - bring me his head too.[/U][/LIST]Jeez, it feels just like 1999 again. :doh:[/quote]

Hilarious.

You're right on. These are all wise moves. WTF

Re: Well, just like old times..
 

[quote=celts32;421258]He's nuts if he thinks he's getting a hefty deal. He's a backup RB and a special teamer. I like him as a locker room guy...you subtract to many guys like him and all of a sudden any shread of the chemistry this team formed is gone. But his on field play does not warrent a big salary. [B]I really can't see anyone in the league offering him a hefty contract and a chance to start. And if they do I will drive him to the airport[/B].[/quote]

LOL I hear ya

But after seeing the Bills break the bank for Dockery, nothing would surprise me.

Re: Well, just like old times..
 

[QUOTE=celts32;421217]letting rock go is the most disturbing part of that article. It's just another example of how dumb & dumber have no clue how to build a team. All that interests them is fantasy stats...guys who catch the ball guys who throw the ball and defenders who sack the QB. That's how they think. Good teams are made up of guys like Rock who think team first and do their job well. That's not exciting enough for the Danny...[/QUOTE]

How does over paying for a slightly above average kick returner(at best) and 3rd string RB who wants more carries make any sense? I am all for core Redskins but they have to be able to produce something for the team. Hell if they really want super-core redksins they can pay me a Mil a year to suck at playing football but be really team oriented.

Re: Well, just like old times..
 

[QUOTE=firstdown;421237]Yea who wants players that catch the ball, throw the ball and defenders who sack the Qb. That stuff is way overated these days.[/QUOTE]

You stole my thought I had while reading that post.

Re: Well, just like old times..
 

[QUOTE=FRPLG;421314]How does over paying for a slightly above average kick returner(at best) and 3rd string RB who wants more carries make any sense? I am all for core Redskins but they have to be able to produce something for the team. [B]Hell if they really want super-core redksins they can pay me a Mil a year to suck at playing football but be really team oriented.[/[/B]QUOTE]

That's funny! I answered this already in a previous post. I don't want to overpay him. I thought the article said they didn't want him back at all. I think he has a place on the team in the same role for similar money.

Re: Well, just like old times..
 

[quote=celts32;421320]That's funny! I answered this already in a previous post. I don't want to overpay him. I thought the article said they didn't want him back at all. I think he has a place on the team in the same role for similar money.[/quote]

I agree, but it will never get to salary. Rock wants touches on offense, which he just isn't going to get here.

Re: Well, just like old times..
 

Well, after reading the article, I thought it was pretty much spot on. We do need some big time upgrades on both the offensive and defensive lines. This is something I've been saying for awhile now. In regards to the two possible big time signings, I'd be thrilled for the Redskins to pick up Chad Johnson and Lance Briggs. I am concerned with Johnson's attitude, but I'd take him over T.O. any day. Of course, I'm not wanting us to trade our future for Johnson, but he could certainly give our offense a huge boost! We do need a true #1 receiver, and Chad Johnson fits the bill.

I agree also with what was said earlier. It's a crap shoot drafting receivers and most of them do seem to go through a development period. I'd say if we can keep Moss and Are, get rid of Lloyd, trade for Johnson, and develop Espy or Mix, I think that would be the winning ticket for us.

Re: Well, just like old times..
 

[QUOTE=ksmitty7723;421260]What about Limas Sweed (6'4" 220 4.45) with the 21st?[/QUOTE]

He's fragile with shaky hands.. Pass..