Re: Todd Collins Re-Ups
 

Brunell is as good as done.

Re: Todd Collins Re-Ups
 

[quote=Schneed10;427537]Yeah I share that concern. He was great at releasing the ball before WRs made their break. The only way you can confidently do that is if you know where the WR is going to be.

It's going to take time for him to learn that in this new system.

That said, Campbell is the much bigger concern when it comes to picking up the new system. And just about any backup QB out there would have needed to learn Zorn's system. So that shouldn't really play into the decision to resign Collins too much. As soon as we hired Zorn, we knew we were in for a learning year, no matter who we had on the roster.[/quote]
Zorn actually has a normal playbook though, not this 700 page crap.

Re: Todd Collins Re-Ups
 

To: All the people talking about Collins learning a new system.
From: The desk of Dirtbag359

All right, I got to put this in perspective. Apparently in Year 1 Zorn is going to keep a good part of Saunders system in tact. Basically the WCO offense uses Words and Terminology while Saunders used numbers. Zorn is going to use the same terminology as Saunders, but will use that system to create a West Coast attack. I'll have to find a source but this is what I heard when Zorn was first announced as the HC.

Re: Todd Collins Re-Ups
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;427543]To: All the people talking about Collins learning a new system.
From: The desk of Dirtbag359

All right, I got to put this in perspective. Apparently in Year 1 Zorn is going to keep a good part of Saunders system in tact. Basically the WCO offense uses Words and Terminology while Saunders used numbers. Zorn is going to use the same terminology as Saunders, but will use that system to create a West Coast attack. I'll have to find a source but this is what I heard when Zorn was first announced as the HC.[/quote]

Never mind. Looks like Zorn is going to keep the Running Game the same but the passing attack looks like its going to be new. Either way I think Collins is a great QB for the WCO, the guy works on timing, and he has great accuracy.

[B]On how much has he been able to work as an offensive coordinator the past two weeks:
[/B]"My offensive group will know we worked two days. We started with the run game and Joe Bugel's (Assistant Head Coach- Offense) favorite play, 50 gut. He has just done a tremendous job taking me through and that is what I plan on doing, is trying to keep the run game alive. [B]Keep the run game the same, terminology, blocking schemes. We have experts here in Joe (Bugel) and Rennie (Simmons, Tight Ends Coach), knowing about the run game.[/B] We have guys that really know what they are doing here. Then, the players, you can see the skills on the offensive line, working together, these blocking combinations, so I want to keep that the same. So, the answer is, two days. I will be working with them until we get that coordinator. I hope to be working even when we get that coordinator in place. That is what I would really like to do."

Sorry, I misunderstood.

Re: Todd Collins Re-Ups
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;427499]Good call Matty! You happy now, ya big Ego? :)

This continues the trend from last year of retaining key players who performed well for us (Betts, Sellers, Collins-I'm sure I'm forgetting others). Five more years of this and maybe irish will start to think we're turning things around.

Anyhow...does anyone else find it kind of interesting that Zorn and Snyder flew out to Massachusetts to bring Collins back, while Cerrato stayed back in DC? What's that all about? Maybe it's like the State of the Union addresses where one Cabinet member is always absent in case of some mass tragedy on site.[/QUOTE]

He was securing 'next' on the racquetball court..

Good move I guess. I wasn't as head over heels in love with Collins as everyone else here. He's good as a backup, but as with most backup QB in the league, I hope I don't see him after the preseason finale.

Re: Todd Collins Re-Ups
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;427543]To: All the people talking about Collins learning a new system.
From: The desk of Dirtbag359

All right, I got to put this in perspective. Apparently in Year 1 Zorn is going to keep a good part of Saunders system in tact. Basically the WCO offense uses Words and Terminology while Saunders used numbers. Zorn is going to use the same terminology as Saunders, but will use that system to create a West Coast attack. I'll have to find a source but this is what I heard when Zorn was first announced as the HC.[/quote]

I believe he said he's not going to touch much of the running game, but the passing game is definitely going to be his. He did say that he's going to keep things simple and only build on things once the QBs are proficient in what they start with. But if you can find something that states anything different I'm all ears.

Overall I'm honestly not too concerned about the new system. As an ex-QB himself I think Zorn is going to know exactly how to best install a new system and bring the QBs along slowly but surely. He seems like a real players coach.

Re: Todd Collins Re-Ups
 

[quote=Mattyk72;427547]I believe he said he's not going to touch much of the running game, but the passing game is definitely going to be his. He did say that he's going to keep things simple and only build on things once the QBs are proficient in what they start with. But if you can find something that states anything different I'm all ears.

Overall I'm honestly not too concerned about the new system. As an ex-QB himself I think Zorn is going to know exactly how to best install a new system and bring the QBs along slowly but surely. He seems like a real players coach.[/quote]

Yeah, either way, new system or old system we'll be fine. Zorn is so good at coaching QB's he could turn me into a starting QB. Though our passing game would only consist of screens.

Re: Todd Collins Re-Ups
 

We shouldn't be too worried about Collins' ability to play in a West Coast offense. People forget that Collins was in KC before Saunders arrived. And during those 2-3 years Collins' QB coach was Mike McCarthy, a WCO guy.

EDIT: Actually I think I might be off on the time (if any) they spent together in KC...but he was definitely in KC with Marty Schottenheimer (I think)

Re: Todd Collins Re-Ups
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;427547]I believe he said he's not going to touch much of the running game, but the passing game is definitely going to be his. He did say that he's going to keep things simple and only build on things once the QBs are proficient in what they start with. But if you can find something that states anything different I'm all ears.

[b]Overall I'm honestly not too concerned about the new system. [/b]As an ex-QB himself I think Zorn is going to know exactly how to best install a new system and bring the QBs along slowly but surely. He seems like a real players coach.[/QUOTE]
I agree.. All this talk of a "new system", it's not like he's introducing the Mid West Offense or some other random creation.. Teams at all levels run the WCO so it's not going to be completely foreign to the players. It's all a bit overblown if you ask me.

Re: Todd Collins Re-Ups
 

[quote=FRPLG;427527]Not really. I mean what does VC have to offer the conversation? TC knows they want to resign him and he knows the Jags would like him so he is going to base his decision on comfort and opportunity mostly. That stuff is dependent on the coaching staff so to me Zorn is the only guy to deliver the message. Plus he's a former QB so that helps. Snyder just tags along cause all this stuff gets him going. He loves this stuff.

I'd ne more worried if Snyderatto went and left Zorn behind. Either way Snyder is going no matter what. He's gotta get his First Day of FA fix baby. If he aint on a jet at 12:01 then he is probably bouncing off the walls. At least time it was to make a reasoned move.[/quote]

Dan just like's to be involved. Can you blame him? Hell if I dropped 800 mil to own an NFL team I'd be involved as hell. Shit I'd be calling plays down to JC. I guess that's why I don't have 800 mil.

Re: Todd Collins Re-Ups
 

I think this notion that learning a new system is no big deal really needs to be put to bed. It has nothing to do with the West Coast Offense, we'd be in this predicament no matter what kind of system we use. New coaches take some time for their offense to get going.

Here's a sample of the recent, extremely successful West Coast Offense coaches, and how they did in their first season with their teams:

Jon Gruden - 1998 Raiders - ranked 18th in offense
Jon Gruden - 2002 Buccaneers - 24th (won the SB on great defense)
Andy Reid - 1999 Eagles - 30th
Mike Holmgren - 1992 Packers - 15th
Mike Holmgren - 1999 Seahawks - 23rd
Steve Mariucci - 1997 49ers - 12th
Steve Mariucci - 2003 Lions - 32nd
Mike Shanahan - 1988 Raiders - 19th
Mike Shanahan - 1995 Broncos - 3rd
And the Godfather himself, Bill Walsh - 1979 49ers - 6th

So when I read over that list of coaches who eventually became very successful, there were exactly three seasons among them where the offense finished in the top half of the league. And in two of those seasons, you had superstar hall-of-fame quarterbacks running the show in John Elway (Shanahan's 95 Broncos) and Steve Young (Mariucci's 97 49ers). Jason Campbell, as much as I like him, just isn't quite at that level, is he. The only guy who didn't have a superstar QB, and still got the offense clicking in year 1, was the inventor of the WCO himself, Bill Walsh.

I just chose to look at WCO coaches because that's where Zorn comes from. But if you looked at any other coach, you'd probably find similar results. When a new system takes over, it takes time for it to achieve success. Same thing happened with Gibbs in 1981 and in 2004.

Anyone expecting Zorn to orchestrate a smooth passing game this year is either ignoring history or expecting him to be the next Bill Walsh.

Re: Todd Collins Re-Ups
 

[quote=Schneed10;427589]I think this notion that learning a new system is no big deal really needs to be put to bed. It has nothing to do with the West Coast Offense, we'd be in this predicament no matter what kind of system we use. New coaches take some time for their offense to get going.

Here's a sample of the recent, extremely successful West Coast Offense coaches, and how they did in their first season with their teams:

Jon Gruden - 1998 Raiders - ranked 18th in offense
Jon Gruden - 2002 Buccaneers - 24th (won the SB on great defense)
Andy Reid - 1999 Eagles - 30th
Mike Holmgren - 1992 Packers - 15th
Mike Holmgren - 1999 Seahawks - 23rd
Steve Mariucci - 1997 49ers - 12th
Steve Mariucci - 2003 Lions - 32nd
Mike Shanahan - 1988 Raiders - 19th
Mike Shanahan - 1995 Broncos - 3rd
And the Godfather himself, Bill Walsh - 1979 49ers - 6th

So when I read over that list of coaches who eventually became very successful, there were exactly three seasons among them where the offense finished in the top half of the league. And in two of those seasons, you had superstar hall-of-fame quarterbacks running the show in John Elway (Shanahan's 95 Broncos) and Steve Young (Mariucci's 97 49ers). Jason Campbell, as much as I like him, just isn't quite at that level, is he. The only guy who didn't have a superstar QB, and still got the offense clicking in year 1, was the inventor of the WCO himself, Bill Walsh.

I just chose to look at WCO coaches because that's where Zorn comes from. But if you looked at any other coach, you'd probably find similar results. When a new system takes over, it takes time for it to achieve success. Same thing happened with Gibbs in 1981 and in 2004.

Anyone expecting Zorn to orchestrate a smooth passing game this year is either ignoring history or expecting him to be the next Bill Walsh.[/quote]

Surely there have to be numerous examples of 1st year coordinators having great or good success? Just last year J. Garrett stepped in & did pretty well. I don't know the extent of the changes they made, but he wasn't on their staff the year before.

That's just the quickest that comes to mind. Also, Brees & Payton in NO in 06.

Re: Todd Collins Re-Ups
 

[quote=Schneed10;427589]I think this notion that learning a new system is no big deal really needs to be put to bed. It has nothing to do with the West Coast Offense, we'd be in this predicament no matter what kind of system we use. New coaches take some time for their offense to get going.

Here's a sample of the recent, extremely successful West Coast Offense coaches, and how they did in their first season with their teams:

Jon Gruden - 1998 Raiders - ranked 18th in offense
Jon Gruden - 2002 Buccaneers - 24th (won the SB on great defense)
Andy Reid - 1999 Eagles - 30th
Mike Holmgren - 1992 Packers - 15th
Mike Holmgren - 1999 Seahawks - 23rd
Steve Mariucci - 1997 49ers - 12th
Steve Mariucci - 2003 Lions - 32nd
Mike Shanahan - 1988 Raiders - 19th
Mike Shanahan - 1995 Broncos - 3rd
And the Godfather himself, Bill Walsh - 1979 49ers - 6th

So when I read over that list of coaches who eventually became very successful, there were exactly three seasons among them where the offense finished in the top half of the league. And in two of those seasons, you had superstar hall-of-fame quarterbacks running the show in John Elway (Shanahan's 95 Broncos) and Steve Young (Mariucci's 97 49ers). Jason Campbell, as much as I like him, just isn't quite at that level, is he. The only guy who didn't have a superstar QB, and still got the offense clicking in year 1, was the inventor of the WCO himself, Bill Walsh.

I just chose to look at WCO coaches because that's where Zorn comes from. But if you looked at any other coach, you'd probably find similar results. When a new system takes over, it takes time for it to achieve success. Same thing happened with Gibbs in 1981 and in 2004.

[B] Anyone expecting Zorn to orchestrate a smooth passing game this year is either ignoring history or expecting him to be the next Bill Walsh[/B].[/quote]

As much as I don't want to agree, I do. Steve Young always loves to talk about how it takes 2 full seasons for an offense/QB to make a transition to West Coast ball. I think because we have good offensive talent in place we can have some effectiveness this year. By that I mean I don't think we'll be bad. Middle of the road, hopefully slightly better. Our tough as nails division won't help. Fortunately we've got a great D to help with said transition.

Re: Todd Collins Re-Ups
 

Zorn seems commited to making this as smooth of a transition as possible. I'm not saying there won't be any bumps in the road, but he at least seems to have the right approach in mind. He's not going to overwhelm the QBs, that's for sure.

Re: Todd Collins Re-Ups
 

If anyone is interested in reading a detailed overview of the WCO, check this out:
[url]http://www.centuryinter.net/midway/chris/westcoast/wco.pdf[/url]

This is a playbook, so it's not a 5-minutes read.

Re: Todd Collins Re-Ups
 

[quote=freddyg12;427593]Surely there have to be numerous examples of 1st year coordinators having great or good success? Just last year J. Garrett stepped in & did pretty well. I don't know the extent of the changes they made, but he wasn't on their staff the year before.

That's just the quickest that comes to mind. Also, Brees & Payton in NO in 06.[/quote]

Payton is a good example of someone who came in and lit it up on day one.

Others that come to mind are Jason Garrett and Norv Turner this year, though it should be noted that they inherited some pretty amazing talent.

It's certainly possible, and I'm obviously hoping and praying big time that it happens for us.

But for every Sean Payton there are countless others who didn't do well. I mean, keep in mind that I limited my list to coaches who are now, years later, considered extremely successful. I didn't bother even mentioning the Marty Morningwhegs or Cam Camerons of the world, like whom Zorn could very possibly end up.

The most successful coaches in the game typically take time to get their team up and running at a high level. Be hopeful, but set realistic expectations. History should be your guide.

Re: Todd Collins Re-Ups
 

[QUOTE=freddyg12;427593]Surely there have to be numerous examples of 1st year coordinators having great or good success? Just last year J. Garrett stepped in & did pretty well. I don't know the extent of the changes they made, but he wasn't on their staff the year before.

That's just the quickest that comes to mind. Also, Brees & Payton in NO in 06.[/QUOTE]

Actualy garrett was their QB coach for several seasons.

Re: Todd Collins Re-Ups
 

Im really happy about this! If JC stinks it up we know we have somoene that's been around, knows our guys, and can get the job done! :)

Re: Todd Collins Re-Ups
 

[quote=hesscl34;427641]Im really happy about this! If JC stinks it up we know we have somoene that's been around, knows our guys, and can get the job done! :)[/quote]

I doubt that JC will stink it up. All we need is for him to get a QB rating of about 80 and we'll be fine. Though I predict he'll be in the 82-85 range. What I'm worried about is what happens if Campbell gets hurt again.

Re: Todd Collins Re-Ups
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;427642]I doubt that JC will stink it up. All we need is for him to get a QB rating of about 80 and we'll be fine. Though I predict he'll be in the 82-85 range. What I'm worried about is what happens if Campbell gets hurt again.[/quote]

[COLOR=black]You doubt? How many ITs did he throw last year? ... How many fumbles? .. How many games did we lose in the last few minutes while on an Offensive drive? I really wonder sometimes why some of you think he's our next hero.[/COLOR]

Re: Todd Collins Re-Ups
 

[quote=hesscl34;427647][COLOR=black]You doubt? How many ITs did he throw last year? ... How many fumbles? .. How many games did we lose in the last few minutes while on an Offensive drive? I really wonder sometimes why some of you think he's our next hero.[/COLOR][/quote]

..........no u!

Re: Todd Collins Re-Ups
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;427650]..........no u![/quote]

WHAT??

Re: Todd Collins Re-Ups
 

alright let's keep things civil here and stay on topic

Re: Todd Collins Re-Ups
 

[QUOTE=skinsfan69;427557]Dan just like's to be involved. Can you blame him? Hell if I dropped 800 mil to own an NFL team I'd be involved as hell. Shit I'd be calling plays down to JC. I guess that's why I don't have 800 mil.[/QUOTE]

Too bad not many other people have as reasoned an opinion on Snyder's involvement as you do. It reflects my thoughts exactly.

Re: Todd Collins Re-Ups
 

[quote=Mattyk72;427656]alright let's keep things civil here and stay on topic[/quote]

... I'm confused.. I didn't understand his reply to my post. So I said "what?"... how is that not being civil or off topic?

Re: Todd Collins Re-Ups
 

[quote=hesscl34;427654]WHAT??[/quote]

Lol, I'm just kidding around. Basically I responded with the worst possible come back I could think of. To actually answer your question, the kid was learning last year, and came away with a pretty decent season. Look around at the QB play from around the league. Campbell did a good job last season. He's no longer at the point where sitting down and learning will benefit him. The best way for him to develop at this point is listen to Zorn and play.

If the Redskins can get a Guard in the draft then the running game will improve 10 fold. However you're also forgetting one of the most important things. Campbell has the trust and respect of his teamates. And if Campbell continues to develop we'll be set at the QB position for the next 4 or 5 years at least.

In the end just call it a gut feeling, like how I thought Reggie Bush would be better then Mario Williams. Of course I also thought that the Redskins would draft Landry about a month before the draft so we'll see this year how reliable my gut is. :D

Re: Todd Collins Re-Ups
 

Ya know...this signing is a pretty big deal....considering both of our backup QB's were the only ones that led the Skins to the playoffs in this millenium.

I am very pleased that we have a guy that can easily come in for 3 or 4 games and win with heavy pressure...brunell took us on a playoff run too...

And though we dont think these guys are fantastic and some want Brunell gone...the truth is, these guys are rock solid backups...the only reason not to re-sign Brunell is because we may want to develop young talent...which I completely agree with.

Why oh why would we replace him with a Dilfer....I dont get that.
Let's draft a QB late or resign Brunell too

Re: Todd Collins Re-Ups
 

(from JLC: [url=http://blog.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/2008/02/the_todd_collins_contract.html]The Todd Collins Contract - Redskins Insider[/url])

According to sources, here's the breakdown on the deal TC just signed.

It is indeed 3 years, worth a max of $9 million, with a $3 million signing bonus (but there's a cap-saving quirk as well).

In essence, he'll get $4 million guaranteed - the $3 million signing bonus, a $100,000 workout bonus due this spring, and his $900,000 salary for 2008 (assuming he does not get hurt in the offseason somehow).

In 2009 he has another $100,000 workout bonus and a base of $1.9 million

In 2010 he has another $100,000 workout bonus and a base of $2.9 miullion (again, base salaries in the NFL are not guaranteed).

However, instead of his 2008 cap hit being $2 million ($1 million proration of the signing bonus + $100,000 bonus + salary), it's actually $1.5. How you might ask?

Sources said the deal is actually for six years, but the final three years are set up as such so they will void automatically (much like Mark Brunell's last deal voided after 2007). But for cap purposes the $3 million signing bonus is spread over 6 years rather than 3 - hence $1.5 million cap hit rather than $2 million.

The Redskins made re-signing Collins their chief priority, with owner Daniel Snyder involved and negotiations going well past 2 am and picking up again in the morning, according to sources. The Skins spent considerable time trying to get this done, including Coach Jim Zorn flying to Quincy, Mass. yesterday.

Re: Todd Collins Re-Ups
 

Very creative contract details there.

Re: Todd Collins Re-Ups
 

The flip side on this is that when the contract voids after 2010 we'll take a 1.5 million hit on the 2011 cap as the SB accelarates all into that year. That is assuming we don't extend it. I doubt he'll be extended at his age.

I wonder if this loophole will get closed in future CBAs because it essentially reduces the impact of SB. 1.5 in 2011 will not be worth what that 1.5/3 would be worth in 2008/9/10 due to cap inflation. We should be doing this with all the contracts we can really.

Re: Todd Collins Re-Ups
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;427697](from JLC: [url=http://blog.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/2008/02/the_todd_collins_contract.html]The Todd Collins Contract - Redskins Insider[/url])

According to sources, here's the breakdown on the deal TC just signed.

It is indeed 3 years, worth a max of $9 million, with a $3 million signing bonus (but there's a cap-saving quirk as well).

In essence, he'll get $4 million guaranteed - the $3 million signing bonus, a $100,000 workout bonus due this spring, and his $900,000 salary for 2008 (assuming he does not get hurt in the offseason somehow).

In 2009 he has another $100,000 workout bonus and a base of $1.9 million

In 2010 he has another $100,000 workout bonus and a base of $2.9 miullion (again, base salaries in the NFL are not guaranteed).

However, instead of his 2008 cap hit being $2 million ($1 million proration of the signing bonus + $100,000 bonus + salary), it's actually $1.5. How you might ask?

Sources said the deal is actually for six years, but the final three years are set up as such so they will void automatically (much like Mark Brunell's last deal voided after 2007). But for cap purposes the $3 million signing bonus is spread over 6 years rather than 3 - hence $1.5 million cap hit rather than $2 million.

The Redskins made re-signing Collins their chief priority, with owner Daniel Snyder involved and negotiations going well past 2 am and picking up again in the morning, according to sources. The Skins spent considerable time trying to get this done, including Coach Jim Zorn flying to Quincy, Mass. yesterday.[/QUOTE]

good work redskins, making this their priority and minimizing the cap hit, I must say well done. Now all we have to do is draft colt brennen in the 5th round and we'll have the best quarterback core in the league. lol

Re: Todd Collins Re-Ups
 

[quote=SmootSmack;427697](from JLC: [URL="http://blog.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/2008/02/the_todd_collins_contract.html"]The Todd Collins Contract - Redskins Insider[/URL])

According to sources, here's the breakdown on the deal TC just signed.

It is indeed 3 years, worth a max of $9 million, with a $3 million signing bonus (but there's a cap-saving quirk as well).

In essence, he'll get $4 million guaranteed - the $3 million signing bonus, a $100,000 workout bonus due this spring, and his $900,000 salary for 2008 (assuming he does not get hurt in the offseason somehow).

In 2009 he has another $100,000 workout bonus and a base of $1.9 million

In 2010 he has another $100,000 workout bonus and a base of $2.9 miullion (again, base salaries in the NFL are not guaranteed).

However, instead of his 2008 cap hit being $2 million ($1 million proration of the signing bonus + $100,000 bonus + salary), it's actually $1.5. How you might ask?

Sources said the deal is actually for six years, but the final three years are set up as such so they will void automatically (much like Mark Brunell's last deal voided after 2007). But for cap purposes the $3 million signing bonus is spread over 6 years rather than 3 - hence $1.5 million cap hit rather than $2 million.

The Redskins made re-signing Collins their chief priority, with owner Daniel Snyder involved and negotiations going well past 2 am and picking up again in the morning, according to sources. The Skins spent considerable time trying to get this done, including Coach Jim Zorn flying to Quincy, Mass. yesterday.[/quote]

That's as clever as it gets from my perspective.

Numbers updated in the cap thread.

Re: Todd Collins Re-Ups
 

coming into this message board thread kind of late but i think it was a great move on Todd's part. What a lucky man a little work every once and a while, at the same time making millions i am happy for him. What he did for us this year....he is worth every penny.