Re: Now that Favre is officially done, where does he rank all time?
 

[QUOTE=SKINSnCANES;429090]How many super bowls did Elway go to, four?[/QUOTE]

So by that logic, players like Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer are better than Dan Marino????
ps- in case you didn't notice, football is a [b]team[/b] game. Look at the stats, Favre blows him away.

Re: Now that Favre is officially done, where does he rank all time?
 

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;429160]This has nothing to do with Favre, but I thought it would just be something to chew on regarding Elway, when compared to another player who shared a similar prime career era.

John Elway, career:

Yards/Attempt: 7.08
Comp% 56.9
TD%: 4.1
Int %: 3.1

Mystery Player, career:

Yards/Attempt: 6.92
Comp%: 59.6
TD%: 4.0%
Int%: 2.3%

Here's the peak year performance for Elway, and mystery player:

John Elway, 93, 97, 98:

Comp%: 60.2%
Yards/Attempt: 7.23

Mystery Player, 96, 97, 99:

Comp%: 61.1%
Yards/Attempt: 7.47

So this mystery player from the 90's was far less likely to hurt his team with a turnover, and gave similar offensive production with far less fanfare. So who is the mystery player? Steve Young? Troy Aikman? Dan Marino?

The mystery player in this case, is Mark Allen Brunell.[/QUOTE]

Outstanding post. I usually catch the stats and recognize the player right away, but this one surprised me. Great way to use stats to prove your point.

Re: Now that Favre is officially done, where does he rank all time?
 

[quote=Mc2guy;429285]Under your criteria, you could have a fantastic year or two, play for a long time, and rank highly? A Randall Cunningham in Minnesota '00 if you will?

I respectfully disagree. From my perspective the greats have to have capacity to play exceptionally and do it often for an extended period of time. In addition to this, intangibles mean something. [B]Great leaders make players around them better and make teams better than they would otherwise be, and that has to count in my book.[/B]

I could see how stats and "longevity" could overlap, but that is the nature of performance based metrics, invariably performing well in one area will bleed over to other areas.[/quote]That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying stats and longevity, for example, can not be compared because they do not share the same genus (i.e. components of QBing [I]greatness[/I]).

Longevity and peak performance DO share the same genus, and therefore, can be compared under the same critieria, because (speaking philosopically), when you are talking about longevity, you are saying nothing about peak performance, and vice versa.

Anyway, I'm being real nitpicky there, but only because I thought your methodoligy was very sound, so I felt I could throw my two cents in and maybe thin some stuff out.

The bolded statement is totally unsubstanciated. I mean, it sounds good when said in a Disney movie, and some very smart football people certainly believe it to be true, but it's not a proven factor in quarterbacking. We can not prove that some quarterbacks automatically make players on their team try harder than other QBs. We know we can make them look better by playing better than other QBs, but that's all we know. It's my opinion that QB leadership is an important off field component of locker room chemistry, but changes nothing regarding on-field performance. Some QBs are more [B]mentally prepared[/B] than others, but that can be measured statistically, and is hardly an intangible.

Again, I liked your initial post, because most people don't try to define "greatness" before coming up with a list. That's a pretty important step.

Re: Now that Favre is officially done, where does he rank all time?
 

I've mentioned him before but when I think of top 10 QBs-and for my purposes here I'll only consider a.) retired players and b. players I've actually had the chance to see play, so this eliminates guys like Tom Brady and Sammy Baugh-one name I always come back to that is always overlooked is Neil Lomax.

I can't rank them, but 10 best (retired) QBs that I've seen:

-Troy Aikman
-John Elway
-Brett Favre
-Jim Kelly
-Neil Lomax
-Dan Marino
-Joe Montana
-Warren Moon
-Phil Simms
-Steve Young

I don't remember Fouts and Bradshaw well enough

And, not to be a homer, but I think Theismann was/is underrated

Re: Now that Favre is officially done, where does he rank all time?
 

One last point. EVERYTHING that happens between the white lines is measured in some way. The score, the yards gained, the downs, every carry, every reception, every pass attempt, every field goal kick...all these things are measured by statistics.

So obviously, we can draw the conclusion that everything that determines the outcome of a football game can and is measured. That's pretty obvious when you think about it.

The only thing that is left for human interpretation is how the specific outcomes are achieved by the individual players. Because we know the team output is a sum of the total output of the individuals. Stats won't come out and tell you why thing's just happened, but they will tell you exactly what happened.

Therefore, we can say that anything that is intangible had no effect on the game. If it effected the outcome, it was measured in some way. Which is not to say that these things aren't important...maybe they just aren't intangible after all?

Re: Now that Favre is officially done, where does he rank all time?
 

1. Steve Young
2. Dan Marino
3. Otto Graham
4. Joe Montana
5. Roger Staubach
6. Bart Starr
7. Sammy Baugh
8. Brett Favre
9. Jim Kelly
10. Johnny Unitas

A list I put together using my criteria, but it's still off the top of my head, and rough around the edges. List excludes Peyton Manning for not being retired.

Re: Now that Favre is officially done, where does he rank all time?
 

Heres my list:

-Troy Aikman
-Joe Montana
-John Elway
-Brett Favre
-Steve Young
-Jim Kelly
-Dan Marino
-Warren Moon
-Phil Simms

Re: Now that Favre is officially done, where does he rank all time?
 

I forgot to add #10. I'm going with Bernie Kosar.

Re: Now that Favre is officially done, where does he rank all time?
 

[QUOTE=budw38;429205]Elway and Marino never had great defences [/quote]
Umm what? Elway had a top ten D 8 times:

1998- 8th
1997- 6th
1996- 7th
1991- 3rd
1989- 1st
1987- 7th
1984- 2nd
1983- 9th

Actually, everyone knows about the offense and during Elway's tenure the average rank of the offense was 9.5. The average rank of the defense was 11.56. Not a whole lot different.

You have more of a point with Marino who had a top ten denfense only 4 times:
1998- 1st
1990- 4th
1984- 7th
1983- 1st

ps- Favre only had a top 10 D 7 times during his career.

[quote] and usually played with no running game [/QUOTE]

That is fairly true, but it's not like Brett had a hall of fame running game either. Marino's sucked for the most part, but Elway won his super bowls when he had a couple AMAZING running game seasons. All his super bowls he had a good running game.

1998- Terrell Davis, 2008 yards, 21 tds, 5.1 ypc (all lead the league)
1997- Terrell Davis, 1750 yards, 15 tds, 4.7 ypc (2nd in yards, 1st in tds, and 6th in ypc)
1989- Bobby Humphry, 1151 yards, 7 tds, all in only 12 starts. (8th in yards, and 7th in tds)
In 87 and 86, Winder was admittedly not impressive, however, the Broncos ranked in the top 10 in rushing td's both years. 87- 3rd, 86- 9th.

So as you can see, the misconception that Elway didn't have a defense or a running game is false.

Re: Now that Favre is officially done, where does he rank all time?
 

[QUOTE=Redskins_P;429327]I forgot to add #10. I'm going with Bernie Kosar.[/QUOTE]

I love, LOVE Bernie Kosar (I was a big Browns fan back in the day) and I actually used to (kind of still do) throw a football side arm. It's weird, I know

Still, I don't know if he's top 10 for me. It'd be very, very close

Re: Now that Favre is officially done, where does he rank all time?
 

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;429324]1. Steve Young
2. Dan Marino
3. Otto Graham
4. Joe Montana
5. Roger Staubach
6. Bart Starr
7. Sammy Baugh
8. Brett Favre
9. Jim Kelly
10. Johnny Unitas

A list I put together using my criteria, but it's still off the top of my head, and rough around the edges. List excludes Peyton Manning for not being retired.[/QUOTE]

Not a bad list.
Here is mine:
1- Steve Young
2- Brett Favre
3- Joe Montana
4- Dan Marino
5- Otto Graham
6- Johnny Unitas
7- Roger Staubach
8- Jim Kelly
9- Fran Tarkenton
10- Peyton Manning

I have Peyton Manning 10th cause if he were to retire tomorrow, that's where he'd be in my book...possibly higher. I could easily see Manning as #1 by the time his career is over, and I'm sure Brady would make it too, but if he retired tomorrow he would not be in the top 10.

Re: Now that Favre is officially done, where does he rank all time?
 

[quote=jsarno;429337]Not a bad list.
Here is mine:
1- Steve Young
2- Brett Favre
3- Joe Montana
4- Dan Marino
5- Otto Graham
6- Johnny Unitas
7- Roger Staubach
8- Jim Kelly
9- Fran Tarkenton
10- Peyton Manning

I have Peyton Manning 10th cause if he were to retire tomorrow, that's where he'd be in my book...possibly higher. I could easily see Manning as #1 by the time his career is over, and I'm sure Brady would make it too, but if he retired tomorrow he would not be in the top 10.[/quote]If Peyton retired tomorrow, he'd be no. 3 on my list.

I just chose to exclude him for the reason you explained at the top of the thread...he's probably going higher than that by the time he retires.

I'm not penalizing Young for the time he spent in San Francisco as a backup, and also in Tampa Bay. For the time he started for the 49ers, he did things that simply were never matched again, even by Marino who had better "tools" from the pocket.

Likewise, I wouldn't punish Peyton for only playing ten years. The only hurdles that Peyton has left en route to topping my list is to prove that he can still perform at a high level into his mid thirties and with coaching turnover.

And that he can outperform Tom Brady over the next few years.

We already know that Manning peaked at a higher level than any QB in history, he simply has to decline gracefully, as opposed to abruptly. No player in NFL history has been more valuable to his team over a 4 year span than Peyton Manning was to the Colts between 2003-2006.

Re: Now that Favre is officially done, where does he rank all time?
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;429331]I love, LOVE Bernie Kosar (I was a big Browns fan back in the day) and I actually used to (kind of still do) throw a football side arm. It's weird, I know

Still, I don't know if he's top 10 for me. It'd be very, very close[/QUOTE]

Kosar was definitely underrated, but his injuries over the years kept him from being a good QB over any long period of time. He only played in a full season 3 times in his career.

I am surprised Sonny Jergensen doesn't get more votes. He was better than Baugh as a QB.

Re: Now that Favre is officially done, where does he rank all time?
 

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;429339]If Peyton retired tomorrow, he'd be no. 3 on my list.

I just chose to exclude him for the reason you explained at the top of the thread...he's probably going higher than that by the time he retires.[/QUOTE]

I understand. I just have trouble putting him higher just in case he starts to suck. It's hard to rank players when they are still playing. You are probably right though, he could deserve a 3 spot.

Re: Now that Favre is officially done, where does he rank all time?
 

[quote=jsarno;429341]Kosar was definitely underrated, but his injuries over the years kept him from being a good QB over any long period of time. He only played in a full season 3 times in his career.

I am surprised Sonny Jergensen doesn't get more votes. He was better than Baugh as a QB.[/quote]I guess it depends. You have to stand on one side of the era adjustments or the other:

1) All player statistics are already representitive of the competition they faced and the weapons they had, and era adjustments are not necessary.

2) The game has changed in a way that has put past performances at a decisive disadvantage. We must adjust their accomplishments accordingly to some benefits the new rules would have given then.

I think saying that Sammy Baugh in his prime would throw for 6,000 yards every year in today's game is pretty ridiculous, but there have been enough rule changes over time that he didn't benefit from that I would say he would rank among the top 3 passers of the 90's with that sort of assistance. It's a tough thing, the toughest thing about all-time QB rankings.

I think it would be a totally reasonable argument for someone to say that Sammy Baugh's skill set (mental and physical) would produce a below average NFL QB today (and a sub-Jurgensen level QB in the 60s) because a lot of QBs today are just better than he ever was. I just tend to think that he was too great for that to be the case.

Re: Now that Favre is officially done, where does he rank all time?
 

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;429345]I guess it depends. You have to stand on one side of the era adjustments or the other:

1) All player statistics are already representitive of the competition they faced and the weapons they had, and era adjustments are not necessary.

2) The game has changed in a way that has put past performances at a decisive disadvantage. We must adjust their accomplishments accordingly to some benefits the new rules would have given then.

I think saying that Sammy Baugh in his prime would throw for 6,000 yards every year in today's game is pretty ridiculous, but there have been enough rule changes over time that he didn't benefit from that I would say he would rank among the top 3 passers of the 90's with that sort of assistance. It's a tough thing, the toughest thing about all-time QB rankings.[/QUOTE]

You definitely make good points, he did afterall lead the league in passing yards 4 times. However, he lead the league in int's 3 times, and even worse, threw 203 int's to only 187 passing tds. I can't put this guy in the top ten when he threw more ints than tds. He was one hell of a punter though.

Re: Now that Favre is officially done, where does he rank all time?
 

I would say Ryan Leaf is the greatest of all time but that joke ain't funny.

Re: Now that Favre is officially done, where does he rank all time?
 

[quote=jsarno;429346]You definitely make good points, he did afterall lead the league in passing yards 4 times. However, he lead the league in int's 3 times, and even worse, threw 203 int's to only 187 passing tds. I can't put this guy in the top ten when he threw more ints than tds. He was one hell of a punter though.[/quote]The (negative) value of an INT in 1937 was way, way less than it is now.

The INT to pass TDs ratio is totally acceptable for the era, and actually, is close enough to even to be an argument for Baugh's greatness.

However, if you want to make the argument that QB's have only improved since Baugh, and they should not be penalized for that simply because they play in an era where their skill set is more common, I'm at least on board with the way you are going with that.

Re: Now that Favre is officially done, where does he rank all time?
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;429347]I would say Ryan Leaf is the greatest of all time but that joke ain't funny.[/quote][URL="http://imdb.com/title/tt0923771/"]Leaf (2008)[/URL]

Re: Now that Favre is officially done, where does he rank all time?
 

I have to go Favre over Elway, the teams Elway was on were much better than Favre's. I can name a heck of a lot of really good RBs and WRs on those Broncos teams but I can't name hardy anyone really good like that for Green Bay. Quick name a pro bowl Packers RB in the last 15 years.

I also think when you talk about Favre it isn't just about the performance on the field. The guy is well loved by millions of fans who aren't Packer fans. The fact that he plays for a scrappy small market team, with history like none other only adds to the reverence fans have for him. The fact he came from a college no one ever heard of and he was nearly doomed to be a career backup. I loved the boyish way he had [B]FUN playing the game [/B], the gunslinger way he played it, and the fact he started over 250 straight games in some of the hardest playing conditions in the NFL. The guys has a "Joe Everyman" quality like no other sports star I can think of.

Statistically speaking or in terms of SB wins Favre may not be in the top ten but he'll always my favorite QB. (well non Redskin QB at least).

Re: Now that Favre is officially done, where does he rank all time?
 

[quote=jsarno;429328]Umm what? Elway had a top ten D 8 times:

1998- 8th
1997- 6th
1996- 7th
1991- 3rd
1989- 1st
1987- 7th
1984- 2nd
1983- 9th

Actually, everyone knows about the offense and during Elway's tenure the average rank of the offense was 9.5. The average rank of the defense was 11.56. Not a whole lot different.

You have more of a point with Marino who had a top ten denfense only 4 times:
1998- 1st
1990- 4th
1984- 7th
1983- 1st

ps- Favre only had a top 10 D 7 times during his career.



That is fairly true, but it's not like Brett had a hall of fame running game either. Marino's sucked for the most part, but Elway won his super bowls when he had a couple AMAZING running game seasons. All his super bowls he had a good running game.

1998- Terrell Davis, 2008 yards, 21 tds, 5.1 ypc (all lead the league)
1997- Terrell Davis, 1750 yards, 15 tds, 4.7 ypc (2nd in yards, 1st in tds, and 6th in ypc)
1989- Bobby Humphry, 1151 yards, 7 tds, all in only 12 starts. (8th in yards, and 7th in tds)
In 87 and 86, Winder was admittedly not impressive, however, the Broncos ranked in the top 10 in rushing td's both years. 87- 3rd, 86- 9th.

So as you can see, the misconception that Elway didn't have a defense or a running game is false.[/quote]
Elway played 17 years , and his last two years he had T. Davis ,, most of his career , he had little in teamrs of a running game . Most of there running yds were draw plays . I think the Def. numbers looked good , because the AFC was not as strong in the 80's .We witnessed the denver D in the early SB's ; P Simms , 22 of 25 , The Skins 35 pts in one qtr < 600yds > , and the 49ers scored 55 pts .... not a strong defence . True , Favre never had HOF wr's and rb's , I just never saw were Elway and Marino had as much as most of our HOF Qb's . All of these guys were amazing , I would have loved for any of them to be wearing the Burgandy and Gold . Nice work on the stats .

Re: Now that Favre is officially done, where does he rank all time?
 

[quote=jsarno;429039]Just out of curiousity, who would be the 3 above him in your opinion?[/quote]

Unitas
Montanna
Elway

Based mostly on passer rating and Championships. If we based it on records alone then Favre has everyone beat. If we base it on championships alone then we are talking about Montanna, Bradshaw, Brady, and then everyone else. If we are talking about Strictly passer rating and Scrambling ability the it is hands down Steve Young and then everybody else. So with all things considered, there is my list with Young pulling in 5th.

Re: Now that Favre is officially done, where does he rank all time?
 

When Favre was drafted I was 18 and a senior in high school. Damn I feel old now. :(

Re: Now that Favre is officially done, where does he rank all time?
 

I have felt Favre has been overrated for a while now. He was great from 1995-1998, 1999ish. Since then, in my mind, he hasn't been anything special. I think he gets a lot of hype because he is perceived as being tough, he can be fun to watch, and by all accounts he is a regular guy. People make a big deal of him kicking the vicodin addiction, overcoming his wife's illness, the game he played after his dad passed. He won plenty of games for the Packers, but he was responsible for plenty of Packer losses as well. Relatively speaking he is not as overrated as Cal Ripken, but might be the Ripken of football.

As compared to guys I saw, I do not put him ahead of Elway, Montana, Aikman, Young, Brady, Peyton Manning, or Marino. Maybe even a few others who I can't think of right now. I do not remember guys like Fouts, barely remember guys like Theismann or Plunkett, so I won't include them in my list.

Re: Now that Favre is officially done, where does he rank all time?
 

[QUOTE=budw38;429374]Elway played 17 years , and his last two years he had T. Davis ,, most of his career , he had little in teamrs of a running game . Most of there running yds were draw plays . I think the Def. numbers looked good , because the AFC was not as strong in the 80's .We witnessed the denver D in the early SB's ; P Simms , 22 of 25 , The Skins 35 pts in one qtr < 600yds > , and the 49ers scored 55 pts .... not a strong defence . True , Favre never had HOF wr's and rb's , I just never saw were Elway and Marino had as much as most of our HOF Qb's . All of these guys were amazing , I would have loved for any of them to be wearing the Burgandy and Gold . Nice work on the stats .[/QUOTE]

I was at football camp in the summer of 91 and 92. A bunch of NFL'ers there such as Lott, Cornelius Bennet, Bruce Smith, LT (real LT), Leonard Marshall, Jim Lachey. In the evenings they gave speeches and did Q & A's. They all said Elway was the best QB in the NFL. I will qualify that by saying that Lott was asked, "If you can't choose Montana, who would say is the best QB in the league?"

Re: Now that Favre is officially done, where does he rank all time?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;429345]I guess it depends. You have to stand on one side of the era adjustments or the other:

1) All player statistics are already representitive of the competition they faced and the weapons they had, and era adjustments are not necessary.

2) The game has changed in a way that has put past performances at a decisive disadvantage. We must adjust their accomplishments accordingly to some benefits the new rules would have given then.

I think saying that Sammy Baugh in his prime would throw for 6,000 yards every year in today's game is pretty ridiculous, but there have been enough rule changes over time that he didn't benefit from that I would say he would rank among the top 3 passers of the 90's with that sort of assistance. It's a tough thing, the toughest thing about all-time QB rankings.

I think it would be a totally reasonable argument for someone to say that Sammy Baugh's skill set (mental and physical) would produce a below average NFL QB today (and a sub-Jurgensen level QB in the 60s) because a lot of QBs today are just better than he ever was. I just tend to think that he was too great for that to be the case.[/quote]

I appreciate your earlier feedback, and I think this is one of the great debates in all of sport...how to you objectively quantify players of different eras? Because we have no consistent imperical evidence against which to base our opinions, any arguement has to be heard frankly. You can make a strong case that the players of the past were slower, smaller, and played weaker competition (lack of full integration in league sports). On the other hand you can argue that with the benefit of modern coaching, training, and rules, some past players would be even better than their modern bretheren.

Personally, I think there is a little of both. I'll take your example:
Sammy Baugh played when the rules were squarely set against the forward pass, yet he succeeded at doing just that. With a rounder ball, no personal foul rules, and with D-backs mugging the receiver, he accomplished stats that would be impressive even in the modern era. This is while he was on the field for every snap of the game, mind you, with no TV timeouts to catch his breath. Now, would that traslate to 6000 yards in the modern era...impossible to tell, but one has to believe an athlete that gifted could succeed under any conditions, but even Sammy didn't have Peyton's mind or body.

For others on this board looking at the gaudy stats of the modern "live ball" era, you are missing some of the true greats. Yes, Steve Young took the WCO to levels never seen, even under Montana. He had a great arm and was as efficient as any quarterback could be in that system and more. That said, Young only had one championship and benefited from having Jerry Rice and one of the best offensive minds ever. How can you overlook guys like Star who had 5 NFL championships, more than Bradshaw, more than Brady, more than Montana?

Re: Now that Favre is officially done, where does he rank all time?
 

[QUOTE=Mc2guy;429404]I appreciate your earlier feedback, and I think this is one of the great debates in all of sport...how to you objectively quantify players of different eras?[/QUOTE]I think the best way to do so is to compare how they dominated when they played. Works best with baseball. I'll always say Babe Ruth was the best player ever even though I never saw him play. He hit more homeruns in a season than entire teams. A few years he hit more than EVERY team in the American League. On top of that won 90 games as a pitcher. For someone to argue that Arod for example is the best ever, he'd have to hit over 150 homeruns in a year. A little harder to use stats in football as the stats do not always tell the whole story. For example, Eli this play-off. Noone will argue, at least succesfully, that he didnt play great in the 4 games, but his stats were nothing impressive or off the charts.

Re: Now that Favre is officially done, where does he rank all time?
 

[QUOTE=angryssg;429375]Unitas
Montanna
Elway

Based mostly on passer rating and Championships. If we based it on records alone then Favre has everyone beat. If we base it on championships alone then we are talking about Montanna, Bradshaw, Brady, and then everyone else. If we are talking about Strictly passer rating and Scrambling ability the it is hands down Steve Young and then everybody else. So with all things considered, there is my list with Young pulling in 5th.[/QUOTE]

I respect your opinion, and can get on board with Montana and Unitas, but elway???? No. Let's compare:

Keep in Mind, [b]Elway played 16 years for the Broncos and Favre played 16 years for the Packers.[/b] Favre did play 2 games for the Falcons, but had only 4 attempts and made 0 completions. So there is no such thing as inflated stats here since the comparison is using the exact same amount of years.

Passer Rating - 85.7% Favre / 79.9% Elway
Championships - 2 Elway / 1 Favre
Records - 100 Favre / 0 Elway j/k :D
Favre threw 145 go ahead tds / Elway threw 103
Elway threw 30 game tying tds / Favre threw 27 tying tds
Favre threw 39 playoff tds / Elway threw 27
Competion % - 61.4% Favre / 56.9% Elway
Seasons 60.0%+ - 11 times Favre / 3 times Elway
Passing Yards - 61,655 Favre / 51,475 Elway
4000+ passing yard seasons - 5 times Favre / 1 time Elway
Passing TDs- 442 Favre / 300 Elway
Total Tds - 455 Favre / 334 Elway (* 1- receiving)
Avg TD per start - 1.80 Favre / 1.44 Elway
Longest TD - 99 yards Favre / 80 yards Elway
Average Passing yards per start - 243.7 Favre / 222.8 Elway
Pro Bowls - 9 Favre / 9 Elway
All Pro - 7 Favre / 5 Elway
MVP's - 3 Favre / 1 Elway

Of course, a lot of these are stat based, but the ONLY argument that can be made for Elway over Favre is more Super Bowls. Everything else, including MVPS goes to Favre. It's a slam dunk that Favre was better.

Re: Now that Favre is officially done, where does he rank all time?
 

And the Broncos were over the cap when they won both SBs, which is against league rules.

Think how many SBs Brunell would have won here if the team could have blatently ignored the cap free of charge.

Re: Now that Favre is officially done, where does he rank all time?
 

[quote=jsarno;429501]I respect your opinion, and can get on board with Montana and Unitas, but elway???? No. Let's compare:

Keep in Mind, [B]Elway played 16 years for the Broncos and Favre played 16 years for the Packers.[/B] Favre did play 2 games for the Falcons, but had only 4 attempts and made 0 completions. So there is no such thing as inflated stats here since the comparison is using the exact same amount of years.

Passer Rating - 85.7% Favre / 79.9% Elway
Championships - 2 Elway / 1 Favre
Records - 100 Favre / 0 Elway j/k :D
Favre threw 145 go ahead tds / Elway threw 103
Elway threw 30 game tying tds / Favre threw 27 tying tds
Favre threw 39 playoff tds / Elway threw 27
Competion % - 61.4% Favre / 56.9% Elway
Seasons 60.0%+ - 11 times Favre / 3 times Elway
Passing Yards - 61,655 Favre / 51,475 Elway
4000+ passing yard seasons - 5 times Favre / 1 time Elway
Passing TDs- 442 Favre / 300 Elway
Total Tds - 455 Favre / 334 Elway (* 1- receiving)
Avg TD per start - 1.80 Favre / 1.44 Elway
Longest TD - 99 yards Favre / 80 yards Elway
Average Passing yards per start - 243.7 Favre / 222.8 Elway
Pro Bowls - 9 Favre / 9 Elway
All Pro - 7 Favre / 5 Elway
MVP's - 3 Favre / 1 Elway

Of course, a lot of these are stat based, but the ONLY argument that can be made for Elway over Favre is more Super Bowls. Everything else, including MVPS goes to Favre. It's a slam dunk that Favre was better.[/quote]

Point taken, but everyone has an opinion.

Re: Now that Favre is officially done, where does he rank all time?
 

[quote=jsarno;429501]I respect your opinion, and can get on board with Montana and Unitas, but elway???? No. Let's compare:

Keep in Mind, [B]Elway played 16 years for the Broncos and Favre played 16 years for the Packers.[/B] Favre did play 2 games for the Falcons, but had only 4 attempts and made 0 completions. So there is no such thing as inflated stats here since the comparison is using the exact same amount of years.

Passer Rating - 85.7% Favre / 79.9% Elway
Championships - 2 Elway / 1 Favre
Records - 100 Favre / 0 Elway j/k :D
Favre threw 145 go ahead tds / Elway threw 103
Elway threw 30 game tying tds / Favre threw 27 tying tds
Favre threw 39 playoff tds / Elway threw 27
Competion % - 61.4% Favre / 56.9% Elway
Seasons 60.0%+ - 11 times Favre / 3 times Elway
Passing Yards - 61,655 Favre / 51,475 Elway
4000+ passing yard seasons - 5 times Favre / 1 time Elway
Passing TDs- 442 Favre / 300 Elway
Total Tds - 455 Favre / 334 Elway (* 1- receiving)
Avg TD per start - 1.80 Favre / 1.44 Elway
Longest TD - 99 yards Favre / 80 yards Elway
Average Passing yards per start - 243.7 Favre / 222.8 Elway
Pro Bowls - 9 Favre / 9 Elway
All Pro - 7 Favre / 5 Elway
MVP's - 3 Favre / 1 Elway

Of course, a lot of these are stat based, but the ONLY argument that can be made for Elway over Favre is more Super Bowls. Everything else, including MVPS goes to Favre. It's a slam dunk that Favre was better.[/quote]
How about games lost by ints.
It seems that you left ints off that list or maybe they were not included.

Re: Now that Favre is officially done, where does he rank all time?
 

[QUOTE=firstdown;429514]How about games lost by ints.
It seems that you left ints off that list or maybe they were not included.[/QUOTE]

Here you go...be sure to check out the TD to INT ratio.

Ints - 226 Elway / 288 Favre
td to int ratio - +154 Favre / +74 Elway

Re: Now that Favre is officially done, where does he rank all time?
 

Maybe he did not want tot include them.

Re: Now that Favre is officially done, where does he rank all time?
 

[QUOTE=Defensewins;429518]Maybe he did not want tot include them.[/QUOTE]

I just did...see above. It's moot though since Favre beats the daylights out of him in td / int ratio.
Over DOUBLE!

Sorry guys, those above stats tell it all. There is just no argument that holds water to have Elway above Favre.

Re: Now that Favre is officially done, where does he rank all time?
 

Who really cares how we rank the top 10 QB's of all time?
It is too subjective, nobody is right or wrong.
Looking at stats however is a [B]mistake[/B]. You can not compare Qb stats of guys that played prior to the rule changes implemented in the 80's, 90's and 2000's to increase offense. The rule changes changed the game. It is comparing apples and oranges if you look at stats of guys in diffrent eras.
It only works to compare guys from the same era.
Prior to the rule changes, as long as the ball was not in the air any receiver was fair game to get hit and knocked down.
LB's used to level receivers that wondered into their area.
Now you can not even breath on a WR after 3 to 5 yards.
Not to mention the the dresses the NFL has put on the QB with the whole roughing the passer crap. If a DL so much as touches a QB's helmet he is called for a 15 yard personal foul. Bradshaw, Staubach, Starr, Namath, Jurgenson, etc did not benefit form the rule changes.
Plus add the changes to OL holding rules. You can now hold a DL as long as you do it a certain way.
Plus guys like Marino played in pass first offenses. Some great QB played on more balanced offenses.
The one thing that tuned me off about Farve is he first broke the most pass attempts record before he broke most of the other records. If you threw the most passes of any QB you should have the other records.
The other things is the miserable season or two he had just recently.

Re: Now that Favre is officially done, where does he rank all time?
 

[QUOTE=Defensewins;429522]Who really cares how we rank the top 10 QB's of all time?
It is too subjective, nobody is right or wrong.
Looking at stats however is a [B]mistake[/B]. You can not compare Qb stats of guys that played prior to the rule changes implemented in the 80's, 90's and 2000's to increase offense. The rule changes changed the game. It is comparing apples and oranges if you look at stats of guys in diffrent eras.
It only works to compare guys from the same era.
Prior to the rule changes, as long as the ball was not in the air any receiver was fair game to get hit and knocked down.
LB's used to level receivers that wondered into their area.
Now you can not even breath on a WR after 3 to 5 yards.
Not to mention the the dresses the NFL has put on the QB with the whole roughing the passer crap. If a DL so much as touches a QB's helmet he is called for a 15 yard personal foul. Bradshaw, Staubach, Starr, Namath, Jurgenson, etc did not benefit form the rule changes.
Plus guys like Marino played in pass first offenses. Some great QB played on more balanced offenses.
The one thing that tuned me off about Farve is he first broke the most pass attempts record before he broke most of the other records. If you threw the most passes of any QB you should have the other records.
The other things is the miserable season or two he had just recently.[/QUOTE]

That is very true...which makes it tough to rank players like Otto Graham etc. That's why threads like these are fun.
However, in terms of Elway vs Favre...they played around the same time, in fact 7 years were overlapping. So it's quite easy to compare those stats and make a sound judgement.

Re: Now that Favre is officially done, where does he rank all time?
 

It is easy to compare, but the judgments are just that..judgments; and the judgments may not always be that sound. It is still a team sport and they ran diffrent play books.
I am not sure who was better. It is not so clear cut.
Stats are not the tell all/end all of who was better.
There were guys like Gayle Sayers and Jim Brown who had relatively short careers but they were incredible. Their stats are not going to be the best because they did not play 12-18 years. Stats do not tell the whole story.

Re: Now that Favre is officially done, where does he rank all time?
 

[quote=Defensewins;429526]It is easy to compare, but the judgments are just that..judgments; and the judgments may not always be that sound. It is still a team sport and they ran diffrent play books.
I am not sure who was better. It is not so clear cut.
Stats are not the tell all/end all of who was better.[/quote]

I tend to agree with you.

The truth is we can nitpick anyone's career to suit our own argument.

But in the end it's still a fun debate to have.

Re: Now that Favre is officially done, where does he rank all time?
 

[QUOTE=Defensewins;429526]It is easy to compare, but the judgments are just that..judgments; and the judgments may not always be that sound. It is still a team sport and they ran diffrent play books.
I am not sure who was better. It is not so clear cut.
Stats are not the tell all/end all of who was better.
There were guys like Gayle Sayers and Jim Brown who had relatively short careers but they were incredible. Their stats are not going to be the best because they did not play 12-18 years. Stats do not tell the whole story.[/QUOTE]

But I am not comparing someone from yesteryear to someone of today. That leaves too much to interpretation. So in that respect, you are right, and I agree. However, I am comparing 2 guys that played in the same era and played the EXACT same amount of years with the EXACT same teams for their careers. You can't ignore the stats I provided in comparison of the two. I know 1 person PMed me and said they had no idea that Favre did that much better than Elway...for some reason Elway is held in high regard while Favre is thought of as wreckless. Some perceptions are hard to break. No matter what, people will believe what they want to believe, and that's thier choice...more power to you. SOmetimes you can provide concrete proof in black and white and people won't see it...oh well. It's not like this discussion is life or death. LOL.

Re: Now that Favre is officially done, where does he rank all time?
 

Not sure where Favre officially ranks all-time, but these are some things we do know.

Brett Favre: Where he stands in the history.

Passing Attempts: 8,757 (#1 all-time)

Passing Completions: 5,377 (#1 all-time)

Touchdown Passes: 442 (#1 all-time)

Interceptions: 288

Passing Yards: 61,655 (#1 all-time)

Incredible: