Re: Using a high pick on QB.
 

[quote=schndr_tdd;433882]We have 2 QB's that could start on this team,we don't need another.Here is a list of positions we need:CB,OL,DE,DT,WR,LB,S,P in that order.[/quote]

I like CB, DE, DE, OG, OL, DL, DL, CB,

I'm really hoping for a CB for the first round pick. I would prefer DE but there probably won't be one good enough to select with the 21st.

Linemen need to be picked with the rest of the draft. They have a better chance of sticking to the roster and paying dividends down the road.

Re: Using a high pick on QB.
 

[quote=irish;433876]Had Gibbs stayed I dont think it would be a make or break year but he didnt. These are new coaches that didnt draft JC and IMO that makes a huge difference (much like Gibbs didnt draft PR, I really think it made a difference to Gibbs). JC is not terrible by any means but he is nowhere close to being worth the 3 draft picks the Skins gave up for him 4 years ago. That said I dont think the Skins are in "need a QB" mode yet but by the end of the season we will know.[/quote]

Looking back now I think it's clear that Ramsey just wasn't starting material. If he could have played I'm not sure it would have mattered much to Gibbs whether he drafted him or not.

Re: Using a high pick on QB.
 

[QUOTE=irish;433737]Based on a lot of the same stuff I noticed with Gibbs & Ramsey. Zorn & Co. have talked him up a good bit and stressed that he is the starting QB. IMO, if they gotta stress that they are either trying to convince themselves or us. We wont know for sure until they start playing but this is JC's last chance, if he doesnt do it now he wont be the starter next year.[/QUOTE]Not a whole lot of drafted QBs can come in their first two years and play above average football.

And yes, Campbell needs to get better to take us to the next level, but history tells us to be optimistic here.

Is it really so bad to have a QB who is giving us a few years of above average football before he fully matures? I understand you want the results as soon as possible, so do the rest of us, but he's been good so far, why temper the expectations for him?

I definately wouldn't f with his mechanics. Sure the delivery isn't ideal, but it doesn't make nearly enough of a difference to risk making the guy uncomfortable in the pocket.

Re: Using a high pick on QB.
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;433887]Looking back now I think it's clear that Ramsey just wasn't starting material. If he could have played I'm not sure it would have mattered much to Gibbs whether he drafted him or not.[/QUOTE]

Its always easier with 20/20 hindsight. Of course if he could have played Gibbs wouldnt have had a problem but like you said, he couldnt. So far, its not clear that JC is startinig material so like you say, if he shows he can play Zorn will keep him. The problem is its not obvious that JC is starting material.

Re: Using a high pick on QB.
 

[quote=GTripp0012;433898]Not a whole lot of drafted QBs can come in their first two years and play above average football.

And yes, Campbell needs to get better to take us to the next level, but history tells us to be optimistic here.

Is it really so bad to have a QB who is giving us a few years of above average football before he fully matures? I understand you want the results as soon as possible, so do the rest of us, but he's been good so far, why temper the expectations for him?

[B]I definately wouldn't f with his mechanics. Sure the delivery isn't ideal, but it doesn't make nearly enough of a difference to risk making the guy uncomfortable in the pocket[/B].[/quote]

I agree, I don't see his mechanics as a major deal anymore. He tightened up his delivery enough to where it's not the issue it once was.

Re: Using a high pick on QB.
 

[QUOTE=irish;433901]Its always easier with 20/20 hindsight. Of course if he could have played Gibbs wouldnt have had a problem but like you said, he couldnt. So far, its not clear that JC is startinig material so like you say, if he shows he can play Zorn will keep him. The problem is its not obvious that JC is starting material.[/QUOTE]I think you mean, its not certain.

It IS pretty obvious, but you CAN make an argument to the contrary.

Re: Using a high pick on QB.
 

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;433898]Not a whole lot of drafted QBs can come in their first two years and play above average football.

And yes, Campbell needs to get better to take us to the next level, but history tells us to be optimistic here.

Is it really so bad to have a QB who is giving us a few years of above average football before he fully matures? I understand you want the results as soon as possible, so do the rest of us, but he's been good so far, why temper the expectations for him?

I definately wouldn't f with his mechanics. Sure the delivery isn't ideal, but it doesn't make nearly enough of a difference to risk making the guy uncomfortable in the pocket.[/QUOTE]

Above average football? If you think what JC is playing above average, I'd hate to see what you think average is. Also, like I said before, I just dont think many teams give up 3 draft picks for a QB that 3+ years down the line is playing at best, above average football. If JC had been drafted without giving up the 3 picks it wouldnt be nearly so bad but the Skins gave up 3 picks for a QB that may or may not be starting material. Thats just not acceptable.

Re: Using a high pick on QB.
 

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;433904]I think you mean, its not certain.

It IS pretty obvious, but you CAN make an argument to the contrary.[/QUOTE]

No, I mean its not clear. 2 of the 3 kinds of passes he cant consistently complete (short & mid range). He's been in the league awhile now and still is very inconsistent and inaccurate. I mean there is still doubt if he is starting material.

Re: Using a high pick on QB.
 

[QUOTE=irish;433906]Above average football? If you think what JC is playing above average, I'd hate to see what you think average is. Also, like I said before, I just dont think many teams give up 3 draft picks for a QB that 3+ years down the line is playing at best, above average football. If JC had been drafted without giving up the 3 picks it wouldnt be nearly so bad but the Skins gave up 3 picks for a QB that may or may not be starting material. Thats just not acceptable.[/QUOTE]Here's your definition of average (at least in 2007):

[url=http://www.nfl.com/players/jonkitna/profile?id=KIT155733]Jon Kitna[/url]

And while the picks determine if the Redskins got stiffed on the deal or not, it doesn't change how above/below average Campbell's play is.

Re: Using a high pick on QB.
 

draft flacco, i think he has got, ive seen him play. big arm, big boy.

Re: Using a high pick on QB.
 

[quote=Jesse E. Timmons;433911]draft flacco, i think he has got, ive seen him play. big arm, big boy.[/quote]

Uh-oh...our first out and out proponent for drafting a QB high with our picks. Let the scuttlebutt begin!

Maybe a QB with the 2nd to 4th selection (in the third round hopefully). Someone young that Zorn can start training early so we can maximize Zorn's QB coaching prowess. Who knows maybe Zorn's time here is shortlived at 3 to 4 years, he needs to get a young QB to mold early in his coaching career before its over.

I can maybe be talked into drafting a QB with our 2nd to 4th selection this year? It's possible. I'm on the fence.

Re: Using a high pick on QB.
 

[quote=GTripp0012;433908]Here's your definition of average (at least in 2007):

[URL="http://www.nfl.com/players/jonkitna/profile?id=KIT155733"]Jon Kitna[/URL]

And while the picks determine if the Redskins got stiffed on the deal or not, it doesn't change how above/below average Campbell's play is.[/quote]

Just for reference he thought our D was 'mediocre' last year.

Re: Using a high pick on QB.
 

[QUOTE=irish;433906]Above average football? If you think what JC is playing above average, I'd hate to see what you think average is. Also, like I said before, I just dont think many teams give up 3 draft picks for a QB that 3+ years down the line is playing at best, above average football. If JC had been drafted without giving up the 3 picks it wouldnt be nearly so bad but the Skins gave up 3 picks for a QB that may or may not be starting material. Thats just not acceptable.[/QUOTE]

You can't already judge how good or bad JC is, he hasn't even had a chance to start for a full year, if he hadn't gotten hurt these last few games he would have ended the year with like 3500 yards then you wouldn't even have had this arguement, it's not fair to judge someone that has started only 20 games in his entire career.

Re: Using a high pick on QB.
 

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;433908]Here's your definition of average (at least in 2007):

[url=http://www.nfl.com/players/jonkitna/profile?id=KIT155733]Jon Kitna[/url]

And while the picks determine if the Redskins got stiffed on the deal or not, it doesn't change how above/below average Campbell's play is.[/QUOTE]

Looking at JC's stats vs Kitna and extrapolating out to account for JC's injury, its obvious that JC would have ended up having about an average season (assuming Kitna is really the average). So all those saying JC was playing above average, the stats dont bear that out.

I think its more than fair to evaluate whether a player is worth having given up 3 draft picks even with the little playing time JC has had. Teams doet give up 3 draft picks for player that might play 3 or 4 years down the line, they give those up for players that will be starting and making an impact by week 10. The fact that JC has sat around for 3 years and played so average when he did finally get the chance to play makes it look even more questionable as to whether he has what it takes. JC may very well end up an average starter for the Skins or some other team but the Skins didnt give up 3 draft picks for an average QB. Those are available aplenty in lower rounds or via free agency.

Re: Using a high pick on QB.
 

in a way, i kind of agree. lets put it to redskin fans this way, this is a BIG year for Campbell. he had better develope the way the redskins front office envisioned. or the skins will have wasted that pick, and still be in the market for a "franchise" quarterback

Re: Using a high pick on QB.
 

[quote=SeanTaylor21;433964]You can't already judge how good or bad JC is, he hasn't even had a chance to start for a full year, if he hadn't gotten hurt these last few games he would have ended the year with like 3500 yards then you wouldn't even have had this arguement, it's not fair to judge someone that has started only 20 games in his entire career.[/quote]


I believe if Campbell didn't get hurt and played the rest of the year, I think that we don't make the playoffs...is that bad?

I guess I'm saying I don't think he had the ability to take us to the playoffs last year. Now, does that carry over into this year? Who knows but being that it is my opinion that he couldn't do it last year he would have to show marked improvement during this offseason.

Yet again it comes to wait and see, but we can be proactive and wait and see with a home grown QB ready to play if he were to falter.

Re: Using a high pick on QB.
 

They Need To Pick Up Colt Brennan On The Second Day And Thats It!!!

Re: Using a high pick on QB.
 

I think JC was affected by Gibbs conservative play and the complexity of the AS' playbook. Look how much more aggressive the offense was with Todd Collins? Gibbs always liked the old QBs and I think circumstances forced him to go with JC. That said, I think this is a make or break year for JC, he has a coach that should make him better as a QB and possibly an aggressive offense. I think after this upcoming season, if JC doesn't pan out, the team should look at other options. I really hope it doesn't come out to that, and hopefully JC becomes the franchise QB we all want him to be.

Re: Using a high pick on QB.
 

[QUOTE=Skinny Tee;433478] It hasn't been talked about much on Warpath but what do you think the feasibility is of drafting a young QB early this year .[/QUOTE]

I think drafting a QB [B]early[/B] would be a waste of an [B]early[/B] pick.
We have much more pressing needs to address in the draft than QB.

I've never heard Vinnie C comment about taking a QB. It's probably just a rumor form the Jason Campbell haters out there.

-I'm sure Campbell will do well in Zorn's offense and we have a quality back-up in Collins.

Re: Using a high pick on QB.
 

[quote=irish;433980]Looking at JC's stats vs Kitna and extrapolating out to account for JC's injury, its obvious that JC would have ended up having about an average season (assuming Kitna is really the average). So all those saying JC was playing above average, the stats dont bear that out.

I think its more than fair to evaluate whether a player is worth having given up 3 draft picks even with the little playing time JC has had. Teams doet give up 3 draft picks for player that might play 3 or 4 years down the line, they give those up for players that will be starting and making an impact by week 10. The fact that JC has sat around for 3 years and played so average when he did finally get the chance to play makes it look even more questionable as to whether he has what it takes. JC may very well end up an average starter for the Skins or some other team but the Skins didnt give up 3 draft picks for an average QB. Those are available aplenty in lower rounds or via free agency.[/quote]Fair enough, as I said before though, you CAN make the argument that JC's season getting cut 4 games short prevented his numbers from regressing back towards the mean. I mean, that idea makes sense, but it is what it is: a very pessimistic view of a season by a third year QB.

Regarding the picks, I think the nature of the franchise QB makes it so that getting one trumps most value that was given to get him. In the case of the Redskins, the issue is not whether Campbell should have been the 25th pick in the 2005 draft nor does it have much to do with Campbell in particular. For the Redskins, the alternative was drafting Campbell with the 9th overall pick in the draft...or trading the next years first round selection plus a third rounder for the pick that would become Campbell. Because Campbell graded out as a late first, early second guy for most teams, and the Redskins valued him much higher than that, it made sense for the team to use their 2006 1st rounder a year early (would have been the 23rd pick)...which is exactly what they did.

Here's the bigger point. He's was a third year player. By my measures he was above average, and by yours he was average. He's not nearly as good as he [I]will[/I] be, which is why I think you are premature in calling this a make or break year for him. Nobody in the world thinks he's done growing, and that's not going to change if we see more of the same from him this year.

Re: Using a high pick on QB.
 

There is no need to use a high pick on a QB, becuase JC works so rigourisly in the offseason, I really believe this will be his breakout year.

Re: Using a high pick on QB.
 

[quote=schndr_tdd;433882]We have 2 QB's that could start on this team,we don't need another.Here is a list of positions we need:CB,OL,DE,DT,WR,LB,S,P in that order.[/quote]

You had me up until Punter. Punter, are you kidding me? Punter..? Seriously,....a Punter? While I agree that Frost is cold at times, he is starting to come around. I do not think that a draft pick should be wasted on a guy who only takes the field 3 or 4 times a game. If you want to get him some competition in camp, then look around the league for some others who are looking for a job. Hell, you can even bring in some Undrafted Rookie FA's to compete for that position. If you want to make a splash, then hire a goalie from a US soccer team to be the Punter. But seriously, unless that Punter's name is Sammy Baugh, I do not want to waste a pick on him.

Now before you go and start ranting about the [B]momentum swing[/B] and [B]field position[/B] gained and lost over the kicking game, remember that Frost is not doing that bad of a job and we have great special teams coverage units.

Re: Using a high pick on QB.
 

[quote=irish;433906]Above average football? If you think what JC is playing above average, I'd hate to see what you think average is. Also, like I said before, I just dont think many teams give up 3 draft picks for a QB that 3+ years down the line is playing at best, above average football. If JC had been drafted without giving up the 3 picks it wouldnt be nearly so bad but the Skins gave up 3 picks for a QB that may or may not be starting material. Thats just not acceptable.[/quote]

Where are you getting 3 picks from? I think GT pointed out the details of the trade. There was not a balance of 3 picks for JC at all. We used our 06 first round pick a year early (thus a zero balance swap of picks) & gave a 3rd round pick as compensation to move up.

If my figures are correct (I'm going from memory), that means the balance of the trade was a 3rd rounder to denver.