Re: BitterGate
 

saden, are you upset that there is a war going on or that the war is happening in Iraq? Because I know a lot of people say "bring our troops home" and then many of those same people say "why aren't we dedicating 100% of our resources to fighting in Afghanistan/Pakistan where the real enemy is." So do they want to bring the troops home, or just move them somewhere else?

Re: BitterGate
 

[quote=angryssg;439705]I believe that the correct sentiment is that they wanted us there and now they want us gone. How quickly desires change once the job is done. In other words we have accomplished what they wanted us to. [B]Sadam is dead and his regime is over[/B]. [B]Only their own[/B] [B]civil war can repair the unity and forge their own nation. We are[/B] [B]nothing less than arrogant than to believe that we can do it for[/B] [B]them[/B].[/quote]
great post. and i agree witrh most of it

Re: BitterGate
 

[quote=SmootSmack;439765]saden, are you upset that there is a war going on or that the war is happening in Iraq? Because I know a lot of people say "bring our troops home" and then many of those same people say "why aren't we dedicating 100% of our resources to fighting in Afghanistan/Pakistan where the real enemy is." So do they want to bring the troops home, or just move them somewhere else?[/quote]

I am upset about a lot of things, our foreign policy, the fact that we have a large presence in so many places, that our defense budget is enormous and that the defense supplemental bill is disgustingly huge, that we are in Iraq even though we can't "fix" it, that we are not in a position to chastise China for their disregard for human right.

I want most of the troops back home (including those in Germany, Japan, Korea, etc) and for us to go after terrorist wherever they might be (Afghanistan) intelligently. I want the draft back so chickenhawks get called up to serve.

Re: BitterGate
 

[quote=saden1;439841]I am upset about a lot of things, our foreign policy, the fact that we have a large presence in so many places, that our defense budget is enormous and that the defense supplemental bill is disgustingly huge, that we are in Iraq even though we can't "fix" it, that we are not in a position to chastise China for their disregard for human right.

I want most of the troops back home (including those in Germany, Japan, Korea, etc) and for us to go after terrorist wherever they might be (Afghanistan) intelligently. I want the draft back so chickenhawks get called up to serve.[/quote]

yeah, yeah, yeah...but are you bitter?

Re: BitterGate
 

[quote=12thMan;439843]yeah, yeah, yeah...but are you bitter?[/quote]

Without question...my tax money is being wasted without my consent!

Re: BitterGate
 

[quote=saden1;439845]Without question...my tax money is being wasted without my consent![/quote]

But on the flip side, a lot of your tax money, perhaps most of it, is being put to good use?

Re: BitterGate
 

[quote=12thMan;439846]But on the flip side, a lot of your tax money, perhaps most of it, is being put to good use?[/quote]

That might be true, but I figure all of it should be put to good use.

Re: BitterGate
 

[quote=dmek25;439602]haven't you heard any of the " mistakes" of McCain speaking on behalf of Iran?[/quote]
No thats why I asked.

Re: BitterGate
 

Oh and I'm bitter about this: [url]https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2187rank.html[/url]

Re: BitterGate
 

[QUOTE=saden1;439841]I am upset about a lot of things, our foreign policy, the fact that we have a large presence in so many places, that our defense budget is enormous and that the defense supplemental bill is disgustingly huge, that we are in Iraq even though we can't "fix" it, that we are not in a position to chastise China for their disregard for human right.

I want most of the troops back home (including those in Germany, Japan, Korea, etc) and for us to go after terrorist wherever they might be (Afghanistan) intelligently. I want the draft back so chickenhawks get called up to serve.[/QUOTE]

But more than anything you're upset that you went to the playoff game against the Seahawks, and we lost. Aren't you?

Re: BitterGate
 

[QUOTE=saden1;439877]Oh and I'm bitter about this: [url]https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2187rank.html[/url][/QUOTE]

yeah, that's something worth being bitter about. Sick.

Re: BitterGate
 

[quote=dmek25;439831]great post. and i agree witrh most of it[/quote]
Thanks, its about time we agreed on something. Out of curiosity, what did you not agree with? I would like to feed off of that so that we can get back to square 1. JK

Re: BitterGate
 

[QUOTE=saden1;439691]The fact that you think how long the war is waged is irrelevant shocks me. You may not believe in the war but you lack vision and empathy. Vision required to see that there can't be a happy ending to the war no matter when it actually ends. Empathy required to identify with the soldiers who are serving multiple tours of duty, 15 month deployments and face stop loss.

I am spineless.[/QUOTE]

Let me preface my remarks with the following. My father is a Korean immigrant. Many of my family members were executed by advancing communist forces in the weeks following North Korea's invasion of South Korea. Many of my family members' lives were saved by American troops.

In light of the above, it should come as no surprise that I shudder when I hear Americans talk about how we need to abandon the Iraqi people. Those same people who are clamoring for the U.S. to withdraw from Iraq are oftentimes the very same individuals who are clamoring for us to get involved in Darfur and similar humanitarian crises. So let me get this straight, the U.S. invaded Iraq, left Iraqi society in tatters, and are watching genocide/ethnic cleansing occur, but we need to leave. Conversely, the U.S. did not cause the mess in Darfur yet we have an obligation to end the genocide there. When someone explains that mental clusterf**k to me, I'll rest easy.

Regardless of who started the war and why, we have an obligation to do our utmost to fix the messes we've made. Leaving Iraq and the thousands of persons who have stuck their necks out in working with would be a disgraceful and cowardly act.

End threadjack.

Re: BitterGate
 

[quote=SmootSmack;439892]But more than anything you're upset that you went to the playoff game against the Seahawks, and we lost. Aren't you?[/quote]

Absolutely...I'm double bitter cause it happened in 05 and 07. Co-worker came over today gloating about the fact that Skins are going to be coming to Seattle next season and that we're going to get our asses handed to us yet again...I'm definitely bitter about losing to the Seahawks time after time.

Re: BitterGate
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;439913]Let me preface my remarks with the following. My father is a Korean immigrant. Many of my family members were executed by advancing communist forces in the weeks following North Korea's invasion of South Korea. Many of my family members' lives were saved by American troops.

In light of the above, it should come as no surprise that I shudder when I hear Americans talk about how we need to abandon the Iraqi people. Those same people who are clamoring for the U.S. to withdraw from Iraq are oftentimes the very same individuals who are clamoring for us to get involved in Darfur and similar humanitarian crises. So let me get this straight, the U.S. invaded Iraq, left Iraqi society in tatters, and are watching genocide/ethnic cleansing occur, but we need to leave. Conversely, the U.S. did not cause the mess in Darfur yet we have an obligation to end the genocide there. When someone explains that mental clusterf**k to me, I'll rest easy.

Regardless of who started the war and why, we have an obligation to do our utmost to fix the messes we've made. Leaving Iraq and the thousands of persons who have stuck their necks out in working with would be a disgraceful and cowardly act.

End threadjack.[/quote]

There is a huge difference between preemptive war and a war with broad support that doesn't consist of just us and the "coalition of the willing." The fact is we are all alone, nothing has changed in 5 years and nothing seems to be changing. You give me a good proposal for ending the war in good terms and I'm there with you. I suspect once the dipshit in the white house and his heir apparent are out of the picture maybe we can get some international help that allows us to walk away. We might actually start talking to people, imagine that?

Re: BitterGate
 

[quote=saden1;439925]Absolutely...co-worker came over today gloating about the fact that Skins are going to be coming to Seattle next season and that we're going to get our asses handed to us yet again...I'm definitely bitter about losing to the Seahawks time after time.[/quote]

That should have been a home game for us. We can beat them on our own turf. Their stadium is absurdly loud.

Re: BitterGate
 

[QUOTE=saden1;439932]There is a huge difference between preemptive war and a war with broad support that doesn't consist of just us and the "coalition of the willing." The fact is we are all alone, nothing has changed in 5 years and nothing seems to be changing. You give me a good proposal for ending the war in good terms and I'm there with you. I suspect once the dipshit in the white house and his heir apparent are out of the picture maybe we can get some international help that allows us to walk away. We might actually start talking to people, imagine that?[/QUOTE]

I think the administration has, to some degree, realized that it's "you're either with us or against us" mentality isn't working. Privately, our government has been negotiating with the Iranians to stabilize Iraq. That's a big step in the right direction.

Re: BitterGate
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;439913]Let me preface my remarks with the following. My father is a Korean immigrant. Many of my family members were executed by advancing communist forces in the weeks following North Korea's invasion of South Korea. Many of my family members' lives were saved by American troops.

In light of the above, it should come as no surprise that I shudder when I hear Americans talk about how we need to abandon the Iraqi people. Those same people who are clamoring for the U.S. to withdraw from Iraq are oftentimes the very same individuals who are clamoring for us to get involved in Darfur and similar humanitarian crises. So let me get this straight, the U.S. invaded Iraq, left Iraqi society in tatters, and are watching genocide/ethnic cleansing occur, but we need to leave. Conversely, the U.S. did not cause the mess in Darfur yet we have an obligation to end the genocide there. When someone explains that mental clusterf**k to me, I'll rest easy.

Regardless of who started the war and why, we have an obligation to do our utmost to fix the messes we've made. Leaving Iraq and the thousands of persons who have stuck their necks out in working with would be a disgraceful and cowardly act.

End threadjack.[/quote]

I used to work with a guy who escaped from Cambodia and the stories he would tell me were unbelievable. Most of us only experience danger at the movies. Then you meet someone who lived a movie and your first reaction is to call bullshit. Then you think, "This guy's a database specialist that makes twice what I do and drives a brand new Lexus. He has no need to impress me."

Regardless of what happens in this election, I think we will honor our committment to Iraq. If the Democrats attain power, they will maintain some presence and the press will dutifully change the subject so that Baraq or Hillary don't suffer for the fact that they end up doing the same thing McCain will do. Our troops in Iraq will get about as much media attention as our troops in Korea or Bosnia or Germany. The thing that's amazing is that the people who are really in the know all understand that this is the game. They rant and rave for Bush to do something (withdraw) that they would never ask a Democrat to do. I'm talking about NBC, ABC, CBS, The NYT, the LAT, WaPo. If I could bet on these things, my troubles would be over very quickly. I can see it as though it's already happened.

Re: BitterGate
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;439942]I think the administration has, to some degree, realized that it's "you're either with us or against us" mentality isn't working. Privately, our government has been negotiating with the Iranians to stabilize Iraq. That's a big step in the right direction.[/quote]

I agree with this. Where did you hear about these negotiations?

Re: BitterGate
 

[QUOTE=70Chip;439980]I agree with this. Where did you hear about these negotiations?[/QUOTE]

Here's one link

[url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/13/AR2007051300304.html]U.S., Iran Plan Talks on Pacifying Iraq - washingtonpost.com[/url]

Re: BitterGate
 

[QUOTE=70Chip;439980]I agree with this. Where did you hear about these negotiations?[/QUOTE]

I first heard about the talks several months ago on one of those Sunday morning news shows. Since then, I've read about it numerous times. Sorry I didn't post a link.

Re: BitterGate
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;440014]I first heard about the talks several months ago on one of those Sunday morning news shows. Since then, I've read about it numerous times. Sorry I didn't post a link.[/quote]


Didn't El President say in his recent speech that the greatest threat America faces is Al-Qaeda and Iran? I guess he still wants to pound sand.

Re: BitterGate
 

[QUOTE=saden1;440041]Didn't El President say in his recent speech that the greatest threat America faces is Al-Qaeda and Iran? I guess he still wants to pound sand.[/QUOTE]

I wouldn't be surprised if he did so and I don't see the point in making those kinds of statements. Then again, Iran is not sitting quietly singing America's praises.

Re: BitterGate
 

If the president did not realize that Iran is a threat to this country then we have a problem. I think its the Dem's that keep jumping on this band wagon that everytime Iran is mentioned they make it seem that Bush is going to start bombing any minute. Maybe we could go back to the 90's and do nothing when people attack the world trade center our ships, embassies (spelling) etc...

Re: BitterGate
 

you add up all those bombings, and you still don't have the death toll that we have in Iraq. sometimes its better to sacrifice a couple of hundred American heroes, so millions more can be safe. and no, im not saying its OK to lose any Americans. but the numbers WERE in our favor. and what about North Korea? to me, they are probably the biggest threat. with a nut as a ruler. what about communistic China? billions of soldiers, armed with all the latest technology. all kinds of human rights infringements, and killings going on. is that OK? why was it strictly Iraq? any guesses?

Re: BitterGate
 

[quote=firstdown;440116]If the president did not realize that Iran is a threat to this country then we have a problem. I think its the Dem's that keep jumping on this band wagon that everytime Iran is mentioned they make it seem that Bush is going to start bombing any minute. Maybe we could go back to the 90's and do nothing when people attack the world trade center our ships, embassies (spelling) etc...[/quote]

He is using the same lingo he used before we invaded Iraq and I have no faith to believe he is not going to open another war front. As for the 90's, terrible times they were, because of the 90's we are where we are today. Do I have it right?

Re: BitterGate
 

dmek25 please explain this statement of yours.

you add up all those bombings, and you still don't have the death toll that we have in Iraq. sometimes its better to sacrifice a couple of hundred American heroes, so millions more can be safe. and no, im not saying its OK to lose any Americans. but the numbers WERE in our favor.

Re: BitterGate
 

It so funny how, no matter the subject matter of any political thread, it always comes full circle to Iraq and Bush. Just an observation.

Re: BitterGate
 

[quote=dmek25;439348]is this a case of someone like Fox making a issue where there really isn't? i still see this as a non issue. and it is really funny to hear someone like a 72 year old John McCain saying someone else is out of touch. that man hasn't a clue on every day problems us real Americans face. now, show him a war, or conflict, and that's right up his alley[/quote]
I like how you have to point out his age to say he is out of touch. Hmmm

Re: BitterGate
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;440014]I first heard about the talks several months ago on one of those Sunday morning news shows. Since then, I've read about it numerous times. Sorry I didn't post a link.[/quote]

I think the Iranians can be dealt with but it requires diplomacy of the highest order. I wouldn't trust the State Depatment with it. They would have to believe that the person they are dealing with represents the highest authority. If they suspect for one second that they are dealing with a State Department so and so, then it's a waste of time. They want to be respected. They are not Arab and they have shown an affinity fo reason in the past. The real problem is their out and out hostility towards Jews. No diplomatic advances will be possible until they climb down from the idea that they can attain a Jew-free Palestine. Arabs have shown no willingness to do so, but I think Persians could be persuaded under the right circumstances.

This was the great failure of the neo-cons. The failure to seize the opportunity to drive a wedge between the Arabs and the Iranians. Nixon would have seen it immediately. He would have had a love fest (albeit extremely awkward) with Khameni. Unfortunately, there are no mulligans in foreign relations and Nixon is dead.

[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sx0t-pLLD2k"]Fictional Nixon and Helms[/URL]

Re: BitterGate
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;440014]I first heard about the talks several months ago on one of those Sunday morning news shows. Since then, I've read about it numerous times. Sorry I didn't post a link.[/quote]

Does anyone else find this somewhat ironic given the pounding Obama took for making the same suggestion?
[url=http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB120649020055764009-id9vyXPD7bi4ouCJEmAXwdFW9bY_20080424.html?mod=tff_main_tff_top]Obama's Foreign-Policy Pledge Sparks Criticism From Rivals - WSJ.com[/url]

Two points:
1. [U]Everyone[/U] (dems and Rs) pounded Obama - this is not a shot at just Bush.
2. I realize Obama's comments were far more sweeping, and involved "no-concession" open doors to a number of countries we have no relationship with right now.

I'm not an Obama supporter (or foe), but I found this interesting.

Re: BitterGate
 

[quote=onlydarksets;440570]Does anyone else find this somewhat ironic given the pounding Obama took for making the same suggestion?
[URL="http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB120649020055764009-id9vyXPD7bi4ouCJEmAXwdFW9bY_20080424.html?mod=tff_main_tff_top"]Obama's Foreign-Policy Pledge Sparks Criticism From Rivals - WSJ.com[/URL]

Two points:
1. [U]Everyone[/U] (dems and Rs) pounded Obama - this is not a shot at just Bush.
2. I realize Obama's comments were far more sweeping, and involved "no-concession" open doors to a number of countries we have no relationship with right now.

I'm not an Obama supporter (or foe), but I found this interesting.[/quote]
The problem I have with Obama and I could be off on this but I feel that he thinks that we could all just become friends. Well some groups, countries, etc.. do not want to be our friends and if we let our guard down they will pounce on us. They want us dead. Say what you want about Bush and how he has handled things but on 9/11 he realized that we are at war against certain groups and has done everything he feels he needs to do to protect us against another attack. I'm not saying I agree with everything he has done but who ever is in office needs to realize that not everyone wants to be our friends and would perfer if we where dead. When we forget this is when they will hit us again. We have to get it right 100% of the time and they just need to get it right once.

Re: BitterGate
 

[quote=firstdown;440591]The problem I have with Obama and I could be off on this but [B]I feel that he thinks that we could all just become friends[/B]. Well some groups, countries, etc.. do not want to be our friends and if we let our guard down they will pounce on us. They want us dead. Say what you want about Bush and how he has handled things but on 9/11 he realized that we are at war against certain groups and has done everything he feels he needs to do to protect us against another attack. I'm not saying I agree with everything he has done but who ever is in office needs to realize that not everyone wants to be our friends and would perfer if we where dead. When we forget this is when they will hit us again. We have to get it right 100% of the time and they just need to get it right once.[/quote]

You are off because how could we ever possibly become friends if we don't talk? The real question I have is do we want to become friends people we don't like and are we trying to build a bridge?

Re: BitterGate
 

[quote=firstdown;440591]The problem I have with Obama and I could be off on this but I feel that he thinks that we could all just become friends. Well some groups, countries, etc.. do not want to be our friends and if we let our guard down they will pounce on us. They want us dead. Say what you want about Bush and how he has handled things but on 9/11 he realized that we are at war against certain groups and has done everything he feels he needs to do to protect us against another attack. I'm not saying I agree with everything he has done but who ever is in office needs to realize that not everyone wants to be our friends and would perfer if we where dead. When we forget this is when they will hit us again. We have to get it right 100% of the time and they just need to get it right once.[/quote]

I don't think Obama believes we can or should be friends with other rogue leaders, but rather negotiations with the US shouldn't be something that's seen as a privilege or earned. I think that's where he's coming from.

Re: BitterGate
 

[quote=12thMan;440597]I don't think Obama believes we can or should be friends with other rogue leaders, but rather negotiations with the US shouldn't be something that's seen as a privilege or earned. I think that's where he's coming from.[/quote]
He could be and I don't have a bproblem with us talking to Chinia, Iran and other nations like that because I do not feel they would attack us. Iran knows we could wipe them off the earth and China knows we could defeat them but we bothe would take a blood bath. Its these crazy people which I fear the Democrats in general just do not see as the threat. Maybe it is just politics but they have faught Bush on just about everything he has done and also exposed stuff that they were doing which has made it tougher to fight them.