Re: Ravens QB Steve McNair Announces Retirement
 

This discussion right here is exactly why it is imperative for a player to go out on top of his game. Unless you were the absolute best at your position (Jerry Rice) then people are only going to remember the last two years. Both Mark Brunell and Steve McNair were highly thought of before their poor play in their later years changed many minds. It is arguable that they were great in their prime. Now they aren't even shadows of their former selves.

Another disappointing thing is that everybody wants to talk about stats keeping them out. I thought that we had learned that stats do not solely make you a Hall of Famer. Apparently, we have learned nothing from the whole Art Monk struggle. McNair is the best QB in Oilers/Titans history (Look it up). Yes, I am aware of Moon and that is my point. Moon is in, but McNair might not ever be.

[URL]http://http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/McNaSt00.htm?redir[/URL]

[URL]http://http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MoonWa00.htm[/URL]

I am refering more to the numbers for Houston/ Tenessee. Years are similar, yardage is similar, and TD's Favor Moon. It is compelling however to see that the passer rating, and TD/INT percentage are solely in McNair's favor.

Re: Ravens QB Steve McNair Announces Retirement
 

[QUOTE=Angry;441298]This discussion right here is exactly why it is imperative for a player to go out on top of his game. Unless you were the absolute best at your position (Jerry Rice) then people are only going to remember the last two years. Both Mark Brunell and Steve McNair were highly thought of before their poor play in their later years changed many minds. It is arguable that they were great in their prime. Now they aren't even shadows of their former selves.

Another disappointing thing is that everybody wants to talk about stats keeping them out. I thought that we had learned that stats do not solely make you a Hall of Famer. Apparently, we have learned nothing from the whole Art Monk struggle. McNair is the best QB in Oilers/Titans history (Look it up). Yes, I am aware of Moon and that is my point. Moon is in, but McNair might not ever be.

[URL]http://http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/McNaSt00.htm?redir[/URL]

[URL]http://http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MoonWa00.htm[/URL]

I am refering more to the numbers for Houston/ Tenessee. Years are similar, yardage is similar, and TD's Favor Moon. It is compelling however to see that the passer rating, and TD/INT percentage are solely in McNair's favor.[/QUOTE]

Usually you provide a good argument to your view, but to use Moon's Houston stats vs McNair's houston / tennesse stats is not good. You can't ignore the rest of moon's career.
Moon, 49,325 yards, 291 tds. Also, it was widely thought that Moon had to suffer through racial issues at the QB position, something McNair had no problems with.
McNair, 31,304 yards, 174 tds. Those are not HOF numbers...especially when you consider that McNair was only a top tier QB 1 time in 2003. Even compared to players of his own era, he doesn't rank up at the top. To me this is a no brainer no.
Also, I'm not saying that 1 issue should disqualify a person's character, but when you compare him to Monk, I think it should be known that McNair was a passenger in a DUI case. He was never tested, but there was plenty of thought that he was drunk as well:
[url=http://www.wbaltv.com/news/13291769/detail.html]Ravens McNair Arrested For DUI By Consent - Baltimore News Story - WBAL Baltimore[/url]
Monk never had those kinds of issues at all. He ALWAYS kept his nose clean.
Again, I am not saying this makes McNair of poor character, just that you can't exhault him to Monk like status.

Re: Ravens QB Steve McNair Announces Retirement
 

[quote=jsarno;441343]Usually you provide a good argument to your view, but to use Moon's Houston stats vs McNair's houston / tennesse stats is not good. You can't ignore the rest of moon's career.
Moon, 49,325 yards, 291 tds. Also, it was widely thought that Moon had to suffer through racial issues at the QB position, something McNair had no problems with.
McNair, 31,304 yards, 174 tds. Those are not HOF numbers...especially when you consider that McNair was only a top tier QB 1 time in 2003. Even compared to players of his own era, he doesn't rank up at the top. To me this is a no brainer no.
Also, I'm not saying that 1 issue should disqualify a person's character, but when you compare him to Monk, I think it should be known that McNair was a passenger in a DUI case. He was never tested, but there was plenty of thought that he was drunk as well:
[URL="http://www.wbaltv.com/news/13291769/detail.html"]Ravens McNair Arrested For DUI By Consent - Baltimore News Story - WBAL Baltimore[/URL]
Monk never had those kinds of issues at all. He ALWAYS kept his nose clean.
Again, I am not saying this makes McNair of poor character, just that you can't exhault him to Monk like status.[/quote]

Good point in the passenger DUI case regarding character. But I was also refering to the helps the team win category (game changer). Combined with statistics these areas makes up a Hall of fame resume.

I agree with the sentiment that McNair may not be a strong candidate for Canton. In my opinion though, if you can induct Moon for for ok stats and 2 great seasons, then you cannot discount McNair who had a similar resume. If I had it my way, then neither would be in. That is not the world that we live in though, so both of them should be in.

Just my opinion.

Re: Ravens QB Steve McNair Announces Retirement
 

JSARNO, I would also like to point out that the numbers are also a bit scewed in favor of Moon. He was in the run and shoot offense. He passed more, therefore throwing for more yards, touchdowns, and intercecptions. When you take that into consideration, then you are talking about essentially the same QB.

Re: Ravens QB Steve McNair Announces Retirement
 

[quote=Angry;441298]This discussion right here is exactly why it is imperative for a player to go out on top of his game. Unless you were the absolute best at your position (Jerry Rice) then people are only going to remember the last two years. Both Mark Brunell and Steve McNair were highly thought of before their poor play in their later years changed many minds. It is arguable that they were great in their prime. Now they aren't even shadows of their former selves.

Another disappointing thing is that everybody wants to talk about stats keeping them out. I thought that we had learned that stats do not solely make you a Hall of Famer. Apparently, we have learned nothing from the whole Art Monk struggle. McNair is the best QB in Oilers/Titans history (Look it up). Yes, I am aware of Moon and that is my point. Moon is in, but McNair might not ever be.

[URL]http://http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/McNaSt00.htm?redir[/URL]

[URL]http://http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MoonWa00.htm[/URL]

I am refering more to the numbers for Houston/ Tenessee. Years are similar, yardage is similar, and TD's Favor Moon. It is compelling however to see that the passer rating, and TD/INT percentage are solely in McNair's favor.[/quote]There is a solid era discrepency between the two. I do think Moon was a fringe hall of famer, but McNair is no where near fringe. I'm not pissed that Moon is in--he was very deserving, but if McNair gets considered, then Matt Hasselbeck, Chad Pennington, Marc Bulger, Rich Gannon, Trent Green, and Mark Brunell all need to get similar consideration for the Hall. All have had dominant NFL seasons to date, and solid careers, which is the best we could say about McNair.

Re: Ravens QB Steve McNair Announces Retirement
 

[quote=GTripp0012;441358]There is a solid era discrepency between the two. I do think Moon was a fringe hall of famer, but McNair is no where near fringe. I'm not pissed that Moon is in--he was very deserving, but if McNair gets considered, then Matt Hasselbeck, [B]Chad Pennington[/B], Marc Bulger, Rich Gannon, Trent Green, and Mark Brunell all need to get similar consideration for the Hall. All have had dominant NFL seasons to date, and solid careers, which is the best we could say about McNair.[/quote]

Honestly, compared to some of the other names that are in the Hall of Fame, those names do not seem to be that unjustifiable (with the [COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]exception[/FONT][/COLOR] of the highlighted). I am not saying that they are elite, 1st round ballots or completely worthy. I am just saying that they deserve consideration when you think about some other QB's that have made it.

Re: Ravens QB Steve McNair Announces Retirement
 

How the hell did Chad Pennington get into this discussion? He hasn't even broken 14,000 yards passing.

Re: Ravens QB Steve McNair Announces Retirement
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;441263]That by no means makes him a hall of famer.
Seriously, take a gander at Brunell's stats vs McNairs. Amazingly similar. SO if McNair makes it, so should Brunell.[/QUOTE]

dude Mcnair will go down in history the way Earl Campbell did..Mark Brunell what has he done in his career worth talking about? How many MVP seasons? So you can't even compare Brunell to Mcnair..

Re: Ravens QB Steve McNair Announces Retirement
 

[QUOTE=prinzeofmoval;441669]dude Mcnair will go down in history the way Earl Campbell did..Mark Brunell what has he done in his career worth talking about? How many MVP seasons? So you can't even compare Brunell to Mcnair..[/QUOTE]

FYI. Brunell's career started long before he played for the Redskins

Re: Ravens QB Steve McNair Announces Retirement
 

[quote=prinzeofmoval;441669]dude Mcnair will go down in history the way Earl Campbell did..Mark Brunell what has he done in his career worth talking about? How many MVP seasons? So you can't even compare Brunell to Mcnair..[/quote]

So 1 co-MVP season instantly puts him on another level?

Once again as many have pointed out, if you compare Brunell's and McNair's numbers they are very similar.

Re: Ravens QB Steve McNair Announces Retirement
 

[QUOTE=Angry;441357]JSARNO, I would also like to point out that the numbers are also a bit scewed in favor of Moon. He was in the run and shoot offense. He passed more, therefore throwing for more yards, touchdowns, and intercecptions. When you take that into consideration, then you are talking about essentially the same QB.[/QUOTE]

But you are forgetting longevity.
I'm not saying a mediocre at best player should get in cause he played 21 seasons...otherwise Vinny Testaverde would get in, and there is no way I'd vote for him. However, in the case of McNair vs Moon, if McNair played 17 seasons, then it might be a tougher argument.
You keep saying the numbers are similar, but what numbers are you referring to?
McNair's [b]career high[/b] in passing yards in a season was 3387. Moon threw for more than that 8 times in his career. You say it was cause of the run and shoot, but you need to understand that we are in a pass happy era as well. It used to be people would run to set up the pass, now it's the other way around.
I have no doubt he was a good qb...I always liked his game, but like I said, Moon had different circumstances to overcome that helped boost his HOF ballot. Let's face it, Moon was 28 when he cracked the NFL. That was wrong.

also,
In 17 seasons, Moon averaged 401 attempts a year, and averaged 237 yards per game.
In 13 seasons, McNair averaged 350 attempts a year, and averaged 194 yards per game.
So the 51 fewer attempts per year that McNair threw, that is only an average of 3.19 attempts per game. AT his completion rate of 60.1% over his career, that would mean 1.917 more completions per attempts. At 1.917 X his career 11.5 yards per completion, that equals 22 yards extra per game which means that would bring McNairs average per game to 216. Still 21 yards per game short. So the run and shoot did help Moon, but as you can see, Moon was just flat out better when you break it down.

Re: Ravens QB Steve McNair Announces Retirement
 

[QUOTE=prinzeofmoval;441669]dude Mcnair will go down in history the way Earl Campbell did..Mark Brunell what has he done in his career worth talking about? How many MVP seasons? So you can't even compare Brunell to Mcnair..[/QUOTE]

Well, it looks like some others already talked about Brunell / McNair, so I don't need to beat a dead horse.
But I will make a comment on the Campbell / McNair comparison.
Campbell had 3 years where he lead the league in rushing yards and a top 7 5 times, had 2 years where he lead the league in rushing tds and a top 7 5 times. McNair had a top 7 in passing td's 1 time, and never had a top 7 in passing yards season.
Campbell was 8th all time when he retired. McNair is 28th.

There is no comparison.