Re: Offer made on Chad
 

[quote=SC Skins Fan;441401]Wide Receivers are not running backs. Elite players do not fall off the face of the planet at 30 so I think this oft repeated argument is bogus. Let's examine.

[B]WR production after 30 -[/B]

[B]Jerry Rice:[/B]
[B]Seasons played after turning 30 - 12.5[/B]
[B]1,000 yard seasons - 8 (including best season - 1,848 yards, 15 tds in 1995 at the age of 32/33) [/B]
[B][URL="http://www.nfl.com/players/jerryrice/profile?id=RIC128880"]Jerry Rice[/URL][/B]

[B]Chris Carter:[/B]
[B]Seasons played after turning 30 - 7[/B]
[B]1,000 yard seasons - 6 (including 1,274 yards, 9 tds in 2000 at age 34/35)[/B]
[B][URL="http://www.nfl.com/players/criscarter/profile?id=CAR632736"]Cris Carter[/URL][/B]

[B]Art Monk:[/B]
[B]Seasons played after turning 30 - 8[/B]
[B]1,000 yard seasons - 2 of the 5 he had in his career (including 1,049 yards, 8 tds in 1991 at age 33/34)[/B]
[B][URL="http://www.nfl.com/players/artmonk/profile?id=MON230710"]Art Monk[/URL][/B]

[B]Tim Brown:[/B]
[B]Seasons played after turning 30 - 9[/B]
[B]1,000 yard seasons - 6 (including 1,344 yards, 6 tds in 1999 at age 33 - last 1,000 yard season came in 2001 at age 35)[/B]

[B]Marvin Harrison: [/B]
[B]Seasons played after turning 30 - 6 and counting[/B]
[B]1,000 yard seasons - 5 and counting (including 1,386 yards, 12 tds in 2006 at age 34)[/B]

[B]Terrell Owens:[/B]
[B]Seasons played after turning 30 - 4 and counting[/B]
[B]1,000 yard season - 3 and counting (would have been 4 if not for getting Keyshawned; included 1,355 yards, 15 tds in 2007 at age 33/34)[/B]

[B]Randy Moss:[/B]
[B]Seasons played after turning 30 - 1[/B]
[B]1,000 yard seasons - 1 (including 1,493 yards, 23 tds in 2007 at age 30)[/B]

So let's not bring up the age argument when talking about Chad Johnson. It is a phantom argument with no basis in fact. If we use historical precedent as a guide it is likely more accurate to say Johnson has 5-8 good/great years left and that he is actually in the midst of his 'prime'.[/quote]

Lol, All people arguing production problems over 30 have been PWNED!!! Personally I was still trying to sort out my feelings on this one but that settles it.

With that said lets look at the facts. An elite Reciever might get 8 catches a game on average. On top of that he's usually getting hit by corners and safetys (though we all know how hard some safteys can hit) but still it's not like carrying the ball 20-30 times a game against D-Lineman and Linebackers, that in general hit harder, and on more then one occasion gang tackle.

Now a drop off in speed might be a concern but as other recievers have proven time and time again, as long as you can catch and understand route running then you can be an elite reciever.

My concern with Chad Johnson isn't the production. It's a possible shift away from the running game that will stunt the running games growth, sort of like New England lasat year. I mean seriously we'll have Cooley, Johnson, ARE, and Moss competing for catches. Not to mention the desire to use Portis and Sellers in the passing game. As long as we stick to the running game and add an O-lineman or two through the draft then I'm fine with the trade.

Re: Offer made on Chad
 

I think our roster is in decent shape for 2008, but we need depth for 2009 and beyond. We will likely lose Kendall, Jansen, Daniels, Griffin, Washington, Fletcher, and Springs within the next 2 years. That's about 1/3 of our starting lineup. Granted, players like Heyer, Alexander, and Blades could step it up, but it looks like we are going to need our picks. I'm sorry, but I'd have to blast the front office if they went ahead and traded 2 1st rounders for a 30 year old wideout. If they could land Roy Williams or Anquan Boldin for 2 1st rounders, I'd be on board.

Re: Offer made on Chad
 

[quote=firstdown;441413]Well if you look at the history of WR's in general I bet your wrong. You listed 7 WR's and there are how many that have played the game in that time span? I could go in and pick a ton in that span who's # that dropped off after 30. Its a crap shot and you think he is good for another 4 to 5 years (which I think he is) you just don't know when the body is going to turn on a player. I'm not saying your wrong I just don't think history is on your side in this situation.[/quote]

I think the money argument offered above by some is better than the age argument. I'm sure you could find plenty of WRs who dropped off after 30, but I bet they wouldn't have the credentials of Chad Johnson. The guy has 6 straight 1,000 yard seasons, has averaged 1,340 yards and 8 tds over that span (and not all those years were with Carson Palmer either before someone makes that argument). So you can't just cherry pick some WR, you have to come with perennial Pro Bowl talent whose performance dropped off after 30. I bet you will be hard pressed to find your examples.

Let's take it from 1990 and WRs with multiple Pro Bowl appearances (# of 1,000 yard seasons after 30 in parenthesis):[LIST][*]Andre Reed (2, noted decline in 1999 age 35)[*]Jerry Rice (see previous)[*]Andre Rison (1)[*]Sterling Sharpe (n/a career ending injury at age 29)[*]Tim Brown (see previous)[*]Gary Clark (0)[*]Michael Irvin (2)[*]Irving Fryar (4)[*]Chris Carter (see previous)[*]Herman Moore (0 - perhaps the best counter example available)[*]Isaac Bruce (2 - perhaps another)[*]Torry Holt (2 for 2)[*]Jimmy Smith (7)[*]Randy Moss (see previous)[*]Eric Moulds (1)[*]Terrell Owens (see previous)[*]Hines Ward (0)[*]Steve Smith (n/a not yet 30)[*]Donald Driver (3 for 3)[/LIST]I've probably spent too much time on this, but I think the point stands. It would stretch credulity to put some of the above with Johnson and, frankly, there are only a handful of guys over the past 15-20 years we probably could accurately compare him to. Isaac Bruce might provide the best counter example, but Jimmy Smith adds another example on the over 30 side. I'd say the point stands that elite receivers do not decline over 30 and that most continue to produce at a high level until around age 35, and some longer.

Dirtbag offers good reasons above for why this is, particularly the lower level of physical pounding a wide receiver takes vis-a-vis a running back.

Re: Offer made on Chad
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;441429]I think our roster is in decent shape for 2008, but we need depth for 2009 and beyond. We will likely lose Kendall, Jansen, Daniels, Griffin, Washington, Fletcher, and Springs within the next 2 years. That's about 1/3 of our starting lineup. Granted, players like Heyer, Alexander, and Blades could step it up, but it looks like we are going to need our picks. I'm sorry, but I'd have to blast the front office if they went ahead and traded 2 1st rounders for a 30 year old wideout. If they could land Roy Williams or Anquan Boldin for 2 1st rounders, I'd be on board.[/QUOTE]

Let's remember though that the report is a conditional 1st in 2009 (and from what I hear they are near impossible conditions). I just don't want us running around thinking we're offering two 1st round picks, because that's not exactly true.

Re: Offer made on Chad
 

[quote=SmootSmack;441412]Dirtbag will love this....[URL="http://extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?t=244967"]EXTREMESKINS.com - Dan & Vinny Duped Us / Danny please sell the team / #85 Offer Vent Thread (Merged)[/URL] (morons)

[/quote]

Lol, another mid-thread post turned into a new thread. I love it, opinion threads are great, so long as they're not on the Warpath.

Re: Offer made on Chad
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;441435]Let's remember though that the report is a conditional 1st in 2009 (and from what I hear they are near impossible conditions). I just don't want us running around thinking we're offering two 1st round picks, because that's not exactly true.[/QUOTE]

Ahh. I didn't bother to read the link and relied on others' summaries of the trade offer. A 1st and a 3rd (or Betts) would certainly be more palatable.

Re: Offer made on Chad
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;441383]Bad offer!! 2 possible first round picks for a player who's about to turn 30 and is a malcontent. No thanks!! Please Cincy, stick to your guns.[/quote]

He's a malcontent cause of the losing team he's on. I would be also. As far as the 2 first rounders that's incorrect. It's this yrs 1st and next yrs 3rd for all of you who are saying CJ is not worth it and would destroy the team. It only becomes a first if he meets certain incentives....which most of you should not have a problem with concidering most of you believe he is a malcontent and would not reach those goals.

Re: Offer made on Chad
 

Cincy will make us an offer before the draft imo. Its obvious we are interested now maybe they are fishing for a better offer. If they dont get anything better they come back to us.

Re: Offer made on Chad
 

I really dislike the possibility of Chad going to either the Iggles or the Cowgirls. Acquiring Chad just to keep them off those two squads let alone how much he would help our team makes sense to me.

The last time the Eagles had a star receiver, they went to the Superbowl, and Chad might be what the Cowboys need to get over the post season hurdle. Romo would have no excuses then. If Chad's going to be in the NFC East, it better be with us or the division will be insanely difficult to come out of.

Re: Offer made on Chad
 

[quote=SBXVII;441443]He's a malcontent cause of the losing team he's on. I would be also. As far as the 2 first rounders that's incorrect. It's this yrs 1st and next yrs 3rd for all of you who are saying CJ is not worth it and would destroy the team. It only becomes a first if he meets certain incentives....which most of you should not have a problem with concidering most of you believe he is a malcontent and would not reach those goals.[/quote]

I admit that I misread it at first. If he were to reach the goals and we had to give up two first rounders I would be torn on the decision. I am all for a 1st and a 3rd rounder though. So if we can get him and have him produce slightly under what is required for a 1st rounder. That would make my day.

Re: Offer made on Chad
 

[quote=theJBexperience;441447]I really dislike the possibility of Chad going to either the Iggles or the Cowgirls. Acquiring Chad just to keep them off those two squads let alone how much he would help our team makes sense to me.

The last time the Eagles had a star receiver, they went to the Superbowl, and Chad might be what the Cowboys need to get over the post season hurdle. Romo would have no excuses then. If Chad's going to be in the NFC East, it better be with us or the division will be insanely difficult to come out of.[/quote]

The last time the Eagles had that star receiver, they had a stud defense, McNabb could make through an entire season...I think...and they were a lot younger on both sides of the ball. Different team.

In my opinion, they are more than just one player away right now.

Re: Offer made on Chad
 

If Cincy doesn't want to make a fair trade, screw them, let's move on. Let's a get a younger, more motivated with less baggage player in the draft. Ocho Cinco can continue to be the circus act in Cincy.

Re: Offer made on Chad
 

people around here make me laugh. i would do a first rounder, and Betts, in a new york second. anyone remember what happened the last time we drafted a receiver in the first round? how did that work out. no, that's right, no receiver that gets drafted this year will have the impact that Chad Johnson will have this season. i say make the move

Re: Offer made on Chad
 

[QUOTE=SBXVII;441443]He's a malcontent cause of the losing team he's on. I would be also. As far as the 2 first rounders that's incorrect. It's this yrs 1st and next yrs 3rd for all of you who are saying CJ is not worth it and would destroy the team. It only becomes a first if he meets certain incentives....which most of you should not have a problem with concidering most of you believe he is a malcontent and would not reach those goals.[/QUOTE]

He has Carson Palmer for a QB, HoushmanXXXX for his wingman, Rudy Johnson, etc. I watched him play last year in many games and to be honest he's looked better in previous years. He dropped a lot of balls or couldn't get open or shake the defender. I think he best seasons are past him even if he's 30. Carson Palmer and CJ had some heated exchanges during some of those games cause CJ was too busy being funny and promoting himself like Deion Sanders and dropping lots of balls and running the wrong route. We don't need that kind of distraction

Re: Offer made on Chad
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;441458]He has Carson Palmer for a QB, HoushmanXXXX for his wingman, Rudy Johnson, etc. I watched him play last year in many games and to be honest he's looked better in previous years. [B]He dropped a lot of balls or couldn't get open or shake the defender.[/B] I think he best seasons are past him even if he's 30. Carson Palmer and CJ had some heated exchanges during some of those games cause CJ was too busy being funny and promoting himself like Deion Sanders and dropping lots of balls and running the wrong route. We don't need that kind of distraction[/quote]

Well he did still manage to catch 93 balls for 1440 yards and 8 scores.

You can't argue with that kind of production.

Re: Offer made on Chad
 

I am so glad the Bengals said no. This is way too much to give up for Chad Johnson

Re: Offer made on Chad
 

[quote=Angry;441425]I agree with him. He is not going to do your research for you, you have to prove him wrong. Otherwise your argument holds no water because you listed no specifics. Give examples of Elite recievers who fell off at 30.[/quote]

Ive got one, Mike Westbrook...he just didnt have the love for it anymore after 30!

Re: Offer made on Chad
 

By the way the Patriots only gave up a 4th round pick for Randy Moss.

Re: Offer made on Chad
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;441436]Lol, another mid-thread post turned into a new thread. I love it, opinion threads are great, so long as they're not on the Warpath.[/quote]


That was the greatest merged thread title I have ever read LOL

Re: Offer made on Chad
 

like i said..theres no way their gooing to pay first round money plus an eight million dollar hit to part ways with chad..Now if t was more like baseball where you can offer picks and a little cash then for them it'll be a no brainer..So lets end the dream of chad dancing in our endzone.

Re: Offer made on Chad
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;441459]Well he did still manage to catch 93 balls for 1440 yards and 8 scores.

You can't argue with that kind of production.[/QUOTE]

But did that production put the Bengals in the playoffs last season? We have more problems than wide receiver, and giving up a first and conditional third takes away from our ability to build depth, and is too much for someone who could end up acting as a divisive force in the locker room.

Re: Offer made on Chad
 

Ahhh -- if only this game of roulette between Chad and his team were playing out with one of our division rivals....

Re: Offer made on Chad
 

[QUOTE=KB24;441478]But did that production put the Bengals in the playoffs last season? We have more problems than wide receiver, and giving up a first and conditional third takes away from our ability to build depth, and is too much for someone who could end up acting as a divisive force in the locker room.[/QUOTE]

No injuries and a junk defense kept them out the playoffs not Chad.

Re: Offer made on Chad
 

[QUOTE=SFREDSKIN;441469]By the way the Patriots only gave up a 4th round pick for Randy Moss.[/QUOTE]

Peerless Price was traded for a 1st. So what's your point?

Re: Offer made on Chad
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;441482]Peerless Price was traded for a 1st. So what's your point?[/QUOTE]

ouch!!!!

Re: Offer made on Chad
 

[QUOTE=SFREDSKIN;441458]He has Carson Palmer for a QB, HoushmanXXXX for his wingman, Rudy Johnson, etc. I watched him play last year in many games and to be honest he's looked better in previous years. He dropped a lot of balls or couldn't get open or shake the defender. I think he best seasons are past him even if he's 30. Carson Palmer and CJ had some heated exchanges during some of those games cause CJ was too busy being funny and promoting himself like Deion Sanders and dropping lots of balls and running the wrong route. We don't need that kind of distraction[/QUOTE]

Nevermind the fact that Rudi Johnson played only 11 games last year and averaged less than 3 yards per carry.

Anyhow, CJ would have Moss and Cooley as wingmen here. Not to mention Portis

Re: Offer made on Chad
 

[QUOTE=prinzeofmoval;441481]No injuries and a junk defense kept them out the playoffs not Chad.[/QUOTE]

Our defense gave up a number of big plays in winnable games (Green Bay, Buffalo, Philadelphia, New York Giants) because of a lack of a pass rush and mistakes in the secondary. Breaking the bank and mortgaging the future on a wide receiver won't fix that.

Re: Offer made on Chad
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;441482]Peerless Price was traded for a 1st. So what's your point?[/QUOTE]

My point is that, we can be as dumb to give either 2 first rounders or 1st and 3rd rounder as the team that gave a 1st rounder for Peerless Price.

Re: Offer made on Chad
 

[QUOTE=KB24;441486]Our defense gave up a number of big plays in winnable games (Green Bay, Buffalo, Philadelphia, New York Giants) because of a lack of a pass rush and mistakes in the secondary. Breaking the bank and mortgaging the future on a wide receiver won't fix that.[/QUOTE]

I second that!! Amen.

Re: Offer made on Chad
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;441487]My point is that, we can be as dumb to give either 2 first rounders or 1st and 3rd rounder as the team that gave a 1st rounder for Peerless Price.[/quote]


So you dont think that CJ is worth a 1st and 3rd rounder

Re: Offer made on Chad
 

[QUOTE=EARTHQUAKE2689;441489]So you dont think that CJ is worth a 1st and 3rd rounder[/QUOTE]

Nope. I would shell that for a more physical, younger and better WR. ROY WILLIAMS!! If Roy W. had Carson Palmer as QB he's stats would be better than CJ's.

Re: Offer made on Chad
 

[QUOTE=EARTHQUAKE2689;441489]So you dont think that CJ is worth a 1st and 3rd rounder[/QUOTE]

Not when we have more pressing needs at other positions.

Re: Offer made on Chad
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;441491]Nope. I would shell that for a more physical, younger and better WR. ROY WILLIAMS!! If Roy W. had Carson Palmer as QB he's stats would be better than CJ's.[/quote]


That is crazy if you honestly think that Roy Williams is better than Chad Johnson

Re: Offer made on Chad
 

[quote=KB24;441492]Not when we have more pressing needs at other positions.[/quote]


Never said that we should do it even though we are only losing one pick this year and one pick next year.

Re: Offer made on Chad
 

[QUOTE=EARTHQUAKE2689;441493]That is crazy if you honestly think that Roy Williams is better than Chad Johnson[/QUOTE]

I think he is. Look who's throwing the ball to Williams and who to Johnson. Carson Palmer vs. Jon Kitna, no contest.

Re: Offer made on Chad
 

One 1st is way too much.

He's not on the "trading block" until you can get him at a reduced price, like a 2nd round pick. If he's not on the trading block, why in the heck are we trying to trade for him?!?!?!

Those deals never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever work out in our favor.

Re: Offer made on Chad
 

[quote=KB24;441492]Not when we have more pressing needs at other positions.[/quote]

Chad would address a big need for a legitimate #1 WR. And would leave us 8 other picks to address other needs. This is one 2008 draft pick. If we could get Chris Long to address the pass rush that would be one thing, but Phillip Merling/Calais Campbell weren't even dominate pass rushers last year at the college level. Maybe we get Lawrence Jackson in the 2nd. This isn't a Ricky Williams/Hershel Walker deal ... we'll have other picks - 3 in the first 3 rounds - even if we made the trade.

Whatever, I've got to abandon this thread ....

Re: Offer made on Chad
 

[quote=SC Skins Fan;441497]Chad would address a big need for a legitimate #1 WR. And would leave us 8 other picks to address other needs. This is one 2008 draft pick. If we could get Chris Long to address the pass rush that would be one thing, but Phillip Merling/Calais Campbell weren't even dominate pass rushers last year at the college level. Maybe we get Lawrence Jackson in the 2nd. This isn't a Ricky Williams/Hershel Walker deal ... we'll have other picks - 3 in the first 3 rounds - even if we made the trade.

Whatever, I've got to abandon this thread ....[/quote]9 picks, but only 3-4 of them will actually be used when there is some legitimate NFL talent on the board. We would be cutting that number down to 2-3, and we simply can't afford to do that.

9 picks are nice but the final 5 can't really be expected to be anything above special teamers for us. If they are, great, but it's not a good plan.

Re: Offer made on Chad
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;441495]I think he is. Look who's throwing the ball to Williams and who to Johnson. Carson Palmer vs. Jon Kitna, no contest.[/quote]

OK, fine one more post. This one is just too obvious. Jon Kitna was the Bengals starting QB from 2001 to 2003. In 2002 Johnson had 1,166 yards and 5 tds. In 2003 he had 1,355 yards and 10 tds. QB has not been Roy Williams' problem, staying healthy and remaining consistent has - which I would think would raise some issues for Skins fans .....

Did anyone see that the Bengals refused the trade and are being pretty steadfast in that stance? Just checking cause it is tough to tell from this thread.

[quote=GTripp0012;441500]9 picks, but only 3-4 of them will actually be used when there is some legitimate NFL talent on the board. We would be cutting that number down to 2-3, and we simply can't afford to do that.

9 picks are nice but the final 5 can't really be expected to be anything above special teamers for us. If they are, great, but it's not a good plan.[/quote]

So Chad Johnson doesn't count as legitimate NFL talent now? I know that you wouldn't argue that, but it is a corollary of the point you are making. Giving up a 1st for Johnson gives us an elite NFL talent at a position of need plus 2-3 more picks to get other NFL talent ... and I think you discard the later picks too easily btw.

Re: Offer made on Chad
 

I want ocho cinco but we need to make thet 1st round pick