Re: Redskins Insider: Draft Review
 

[QUOTE=sjp21;445411]I know how we all love to speculate about the upcoming season and wait in earnest for September to roll around so we can see a glimpse of greatness from recent draft picks and free agent pickups. All I want to say is it is impossible to accurately assess how the Skins will fair each season because we have two morons at the head of our organization. Snyder and Cerratto have been a plague to this team for as long as I can remember. Blown draft picks and absurb free agent signings are a common phenomenon in this town. Just rattling off a few names: Adam Archuleta, Brandon Lloyd, TJ Duckett, Bruce Smith, and Ade Jimoh. All these players with the exception of Jimoh were given enormous salaries and bonuses and yielded little or no production. They actually in reality hurt us. Duckett was famous for losing yards, any deep ball would fly over Jimoh's head, Archuleta couldnt cover a cripple, and Lloyd has about 20 catches in 3 years...

I have been a fan of this team for 20 years and I love them to death. I just want people to understand that in D.C. no one can know how each season will pan out...

On a good note, our draft was relatively successful. We could have used an aggressive, quick, strong DE but you can never get what you want with the team all the time.[/QUOTE]

Never mind Santana Moss, Clinton Portis, Chris Cooley, Casay Rabach, Randy Thomas, Mike Sellers, Rock Cartwright, Marcus Washington, London Fletcher, Sean Taylor, Shawn Springs, Laron Landry, Corneluis Griffin, Anthony Montgomery...

Re: Redskins Insider: Draft Review
 

[QUOTE=Beemnseven;445381]I'd like to see some evidence that Malcolm Kelly was falling down others teams' draft boards. Somehow I don't think he would have lasted much longer than where we picked him.[/QUOTE]

This goes back to what I have said recently about JLC and his "sources". He seems to value thier opinion over all else. Who they are and what their motivations go out the window. I know he has guys he trusts but maybe the "self-fulfilling prophecy" is that he seeks out nay sayers. I'd like him for once to just say "I don't agree with this" Rather than "League sources are skeptical". Of course they are. They have reason to support the decision and don't even know what the process was in making the decision. In fact in some cases they are keenly motivated to disgaree for no other reason other than to simply disagree because it is an opponent. I am sure the Skins look around and make judgements of other teams. Their opinions matter(or don't) as much as anyone else's.

Re: Redskins Insider: Draft Review
 

For what it's worth, Boswell also had his doubts about our day 1 choices, and for the same reasons, pretty much:

[url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/26/AR2008042602580.html]washingtonpost.com[/url]

I don't think Boswell is an off-the-wall nay-sayer. He's pretty straight up about these things. And while it may well turn out just fine, it's not off-the-wall for JLac to point out that this is not how other teams are doing things, from the coaching selection process to the draft. And it's not like this is the first time Danny and Vinny ahve done things their own way--it's what they do. Maybe it'll work out. But it's not the conventional wisdom. Sure, Kiper and other network and internent pundits liked it. But that's not the only legit opinion on drafting.

Think back to when we made the TE and 2nd WR pick. How did you react then? We can go look at the draft thread. I was unsure, as were many of you. So we've now come round and convinced ourselves that it's ok. Fine. Maybe that's right. But JLac isn't being overly negative to bring up the contrary view. His coverage has been excellent, in the following sense: he's ALWAYS working that beat. He puts in tons of time on the paper and the blog, AND he answers emails. So you don't agree with his opinion; that's part of the process. But to say he's off his rocker and just being negative is too harsh in this case, IMHO.

Re: Redskins Insider: Draft Review
 

[quote=SC Skins Fan;445104][B]Malcolm Kelly looks like a player to me.[/B] From the limited stuff I've seen on him I don't think the Skins were merely pulling stuff out of thin air here. Fred Davis also looks like a player, though this pick is probably the one to watch. If Calais Campbell is a beast it might get tough to justify this pick, even if Davis is productive. If Campbell isn't all that great then passing on him might look better.

Another spin JLC could have put on this would be to compare it to the 2002 Eagles draft where they got Lito Sheppard, Michael Lewis, and Sheldon Brown in the first two rounds even though they still had a couple of Pro Bowlers at corner. Many have long said that the Eagles are one of the franchises that 'does things right' and they got those guys in there, moved out higher priced players in subsequent seasons, and reloaded their roster. Since the Redskins are only going to be paying these guys 2nd round money they are really going to be coming in on the cheap. They will also have some time to develop behind some proven starters, which is imperative for most young WRs. I do think the Philadelphia example is apt, though, and it might also be worth mentioning that among those WRs that Snyder 'coveted', Moss and Braylon Edwards and probably Calvin Johnson all have turned out to be pretty good players.[/quote]


Yeah, Kelly looks pretty good because of his height, but Devin Thomas looks more complete. I love his Anquan Boldin-like strength. He is really strong and has good speed.

Also, JLC has been pretty good to me. I like his posts but this one really pisses me off. I hate when people judge things before they perform. He'd be mad if the Redskins had the same receivers from last year. We get more receivers and he's still complaining. pathetic.

Re: Redskins Insider: Draft Review
 

[quote=irish;445341]I think you are seeing it the wrong way. You said I disagree with nearly every move which means I agree with some, which I do. I can hardly think of anyone on this site besides myself that ever says anything negative about the Skins. In fact the way most talk on this board one would think the Skins are the 10 time defending Super Bowl champs instead of barely sniffing the playoffs in the past 15 years. In reality I am much more objective than 99% of the "knowledgeable" fans on this site.

[B]I am certain that if you look back at the past posts you will see that anyone that says the Skins are great and making all the right moves is very astute and knowledgeable while anyone that utters a negative word is labeled as anti-redskin or not objective[/B].[/quote]

I think you're painting things with a pretty broad stroke there. It's not that black and white.

I think everyone has their gripes from time to time, you just tend to be overly pessimistic. It's hard to take people serious that are like that all the time, and on the other hand it's hard to take people serious who are always optimistic. I think a lot of people fall somewhere in the middle, probably more often than you realize.

Re: Redskins Insider: Draft Review
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;445373]JLC did that to himself. If he's going to make a point in a major media outlet, get your facts straight. Don't blow this off, how can you write opinions about the Redskins, say the Front Office screwed up, and not understand something so basic as this? You wouldn't use any of those players in his scenario because it would be going back 5 yds every time you line up.

To your point, Kelly and Thomas will probably not both be ready as a # 1 & #2 WR on day one, they will need to develop and learn the NFL and WCO. Here's what I envision this year as a few personnel packages:

I-Form: Moss - Z, Thomas - X, Cooley TE, Sellars FB, Portis will be RB is all formations.

I-Form or Split-Back (hands): same as above with Davis / Cooley at FB & TE, not sure who is where depends on what Zorn wants to do.

3WR: Moss - Z, Thomas - X, ARE - Slot, Sellars or Cooley FB
3WR (Singleback): same as above Cooley at TE

Singleback, 2TE - Moss - Z, Thomas - X, Davis & Cooley TEs
Singleback, 2TE wide - same as above with Davis & Cooley either wide or in the slots

4WR - Moss, ARE, Kelly, Thomas.

4WR, TE - add Cooley to above

Moss will probably not get through the year healthy.
ARE is a good slot WR, not much more.
Cooley & Davis can create a lot of mismatches unless a team has very good coverage LBs. If a D brings in a nickle package against a 2TE formation for coverage they will get smashed on a run. If a D stays with LB coverage they better have some good cover LBs to account for Cooley & Davis.
Sellars will be a traditional blocking FB.

The 2nd round picks are going to be very "cap friendly" for at least three years. By 2010 Moss & ARE will be able to be released and will probably not be effective at that point anyway. From a skill player perspective we are set at WR, TE, RB for at least 3 years. These guys give Zorn many formations to go to and many potential mismatches against the D to exploit. Kelly and Thomas are also bigger WRs, gives Campbell bigger targets as he develops his accuracy.

Now how about you come up with a point better than: They should've gotten OL / DL or Campbell won't be able to throw if he doesn't have time.[/quote]


hmmmmm, I like the way you broke these scenarios down. It makes a lot of since, and seems very realistic. I like it.
brillant!!!:food-smil

Re: Redskins Insider: Draft Review
 

[quote=JWsleep;445441]For what it's worth, Boswell also had his doubts about our day 1 choices, and for the same reasons, pretty much:

[url=http://washingtonpost.com]washingtonpost.com - nation, world, technology and Washington area news and headlines[/url]

I don't think Boswell is an off-the-wall nay-sayer. He's pretty straight up about these things. And while it may well turn out just fine, it's not off-the-wall for JLac to point out that this is not how other teams are doing things, from the coaching selection process to the draft. And it's not like this is the first time Danny and Vinny ahve done things their own way--it's what they do. Maybe it'll work out. But it's not the conventional wisdom. Sure, Kiper and other network and internent pundits liked it. But that's not the only legit opinion on drafting.

Think back to when we made the TE and 2nd WR pick. How did you react then? We can go look at the draft thread. I was unsure, as were many of you. So we've now come round and convinced ourselves that it's ok. Fine. Maybe that's right. But JLac isn't being overly negative to bring up the contrary view. His coverage has been excellent, in the following sense: he's ALWAYS working that beat. He puts in tons of time on the paper and the blog, AND he answers emails. So you don't agree with his opinion; that's part of the process. But to say he's off his rocker and just being negative is too harsh in this case, IMHO.[/quote]Great post.

Re: Redskins Insider: Draft Review
 

One of my biggest issues with JLC is how his Insider info tends to come after the fact, if at all. Case in point

"Inside the building, coaches were fretting that upper management was pushing grades higher on players like Malcolm Kelly, inflating their worth as the draft approaches, while Kelly was dropping down other boards. Teams I spoke to before the draft had him rated in the lower half of the second round, and no one seems shocked he was still on the board at 51. The Redskins kept coming up with high grades on this slumping receiver class, thus ensuring a self-fulfilling prophecy: If you simply follow the board, and the draft plays out as expected, and you sit there with a bunch of second round picks, of course you're going to have wide receivers "sticking out like a sore thumb."

Maybe I missed this, but did he talk about this stuff before the draft? Or did he just wait until afterward? If he waited, then why?

Re: Redskins Insider: Draft Review
 

[QUOTE=FRPLG;445432]This goes back to what I have said recently about JLC and his "sources". He seems to value thier opinion over all else. Who they are and what their motivations go out the window. I know he has guys he trusts but maybe the "self-fulfilling prophecy" is that he seeks out nay sayers. I'd like him for once to just say "I don't agree with this" Rather than "League sources are skeptical". Of course they are. They have reason to support the decision and don't even know what the process was in making the decision. In fact in some cases they are keenly motivated to disgaree for no other reason other than to simply disagree because it is an opponent. I am sure the Skins look around and make judgements of other teams. Their opinions matter(or don't) as much as anyone else's.[/QUOTE]

I remember watching the draft and towards the end of the first round Malcolm Kelly was at the top of Mel Kiper's "Best Available" list of all players. And he was there for pick after pick. Now, say what you want about Mel Kiper. Some people like him, some don't.

If I had one gripe, it would the trade out of pick #21 which essentially gave us an even exchange with Atlanta (3 picks for 3 picks). We shouldn't have had to part with the first 3rd rounder. If any team wants to move up, then they have to pay for it. Now, if the deal wasn't going to get done without the 3rd and 5th, that's one thing. But I'd like to know exactly how that one went down.

Re: Redskins Insider: Draft Review
 

and if all these teams had Kelly in the "lower half of the second round" didnt the skins pick him where they should have? Last I checked thats where pick #51 is

Re: Redskins Insider: Draft Review
 

Here is a really cool video with film highlights of all draft picks with the exception of some film on Rhinehart. Check it out, and make sure to give the creator of that video some props.

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykDP2TAT5uQ]YouTube - Washington Redskins 2008 Draft Picks[/url]

Re: Redskins Insider: Draft Review
 

[QUOTE=SkinsFanSince91;445540]Here is a really cool video with film highlights of all draft picks with the exception of some film on Rhinehart. Check it out, and make sure to give the creator of that video some props.

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykDP2TAT5uQ]YouTube - Washington Redskins 2008 Draft Picks[/url][/QUOTE]

good video!!

Re: Redskins Insider: Draft Review
 

Well, I take a few things from JLa's blog.

He certainly is playing devil's advocate as far as "building in the trenches" is concerned. And he may not be far off. But in response, a few things to consider:

We do need some depth on the OL and DL, and maybe we do need another pass rusher to bookend Andre Carter. But maybe Phillip Daniels has another year left in him. Maybe Greg Blache sees a bright future in Chris Wilson who came on strong down the stretch last year.

Now that the O-line is 100% healthy, what are the chances we again lose Thomas AND Jansen to season ending injuries in the first two weeks? I'd say remote considering how durable both players had been prior to '07. With Samuels, Thomas, Kendall, Rabach, and Jansen all full go come training camp, and Heyer, Wade, Fabini, and Reinhart behind them, I think we'll be okay for another year.

As far as the Redskins "inflating" their draft board rankings on Kelly and their past obsession with WRs: Devin Thomas was rated the #1 receiver in the draft. Sure it wasn't an awesome class, but most experts agree he was a steal at #34 considering many mocks had him going to Buffalo at #11. Kelly was rated the #1 receiver until the past few weeks when some "character" flags popped up. McShay loves him, and apparently so did Jason Campbell when he flew down to Oklahoma with Vinny and Co. to work him out. For anyone who doesn't think we need a plethora of pass catchers in the WCO, look at Seattle's passing stats last year:

Their top 7 receivers in '07 totaled 315 catches for 3685 yards and 25 TDs.

Our top 7 receivers in '07 totaled 285 catches for 3141 yards and 15 TDs.

That's 30 less receptions for 544 less yards and 10 less TDs. Pretty significant, especially the TDs. I understand we ran more and they threw more, but this is our new offense now. And frankly we didn't have the personnel to make it work.

Our defense was pretty damn good last year despite a wide variety of injuries. All the staff (Gregg aside) and personnel are returning. It's fine with me that offense was the focus, particularly the passing game. Sure he mentions the Coles, Lloyd, Moss, Randle El dealings, but we haven't drafted a significant WR since Taylor Jacobs, and that pick was primarily b/c of the Ole Ball Coach. Prior to that, Michael Westbrook? We needed at least 2 of these 3 pass catchers we drafted. Funny how a position that Danny is so enamored with hasn't been a position he's cared to draft until now.

I bothers me a bit that JLa has been so negative, but I understand. He covers the Skins for a living, and the team's overall performance, both on the field and in the front office, hasn't exactly been glowing. I definitely hope Danny and Vinny can prove him wrong.

On a side note, where are the Anthony Mix sycophants now?

Re: Redskins Insider: Draft Review
 

[QUOTE=Slingin Sammy 33;445373]JLC did that to himself. If he's going to make a point in a major media outlet, get your facts straight. Don't blow this off, how can you write opinions about the Redskins, say the Front Office screwed up, and not understand something so basic as this? You wouldn't use any of those players in his scenario because it would be going back 5 yds every time you line up.

To your point, Kelly and Thomas will probably not both be ready as a # 1 & #2 WR on day one, they will need to develop and learn the NFL and WCO. Here's what I envision this year as a few personnel packages:

I-Form: Moss - Z, Thomas - X, Cooley TE, Sellars FB, Portis will be RB is all formations.

I-Form or Split-Back (hands): same as above with Davis / Cooley at FB & TE, not sure who is where depends on what Zorn wants to do.

3WR: Moss - Z, Thomas - X, ARE - Slot, Sellars or Cooley FB
3WR (Singleback): same as above Cooley at TE

Singleback, 2TE - Moss - Z, Thomas - X, Davis & Cooley TEs
Singleback, 2TE wide - same as above with Davis & Cooley either wide or in the slots

4WR - Moss, ARE, Kelly, Thomas.

4WR, TE - add Cooley to above

Moss will probably not get through the year healthy.
ARE is a good slot WR, not much more.
Cooley & Davis can create a lot of mismatches unless a team has very good coverage LBs. If a D brings in a nickle package against a 2TE formation for coverage they will get smashed on a run. If a D stays with LB coverage they better have some good cover LBs to account for Cooley & Davis.
Sellars will be a traditional blocking FB.

The 2nd round picks are going to be very "cap friendly" for at least three years. By 2010 Moss & ARE will be able to be released and will probably not be effective at that point anyway. From a skill player perspective we are set at WR, TE, RB for at least 3 years. These guys give Zorn many formations to go to and many potential mismatches against the D to exploit. Kelly and Thomas are also bigger WRs, gives Campbell bigger targets as he develops his accuracy.

Now how about you come up with a point better than: They should've gotten OL / DL or Campbell won't be able to throw if he doesn't have time.[/QUOTE]


WOW, finally someone who can stuff 10lbs of bologna in a 5lbs bag.

4 WR sets? And wheres the nearest hospital? Because Campbell is on his way he just don't know it yet.

Cooley is now a fullback? Or is it Davis? Regardless neither is known for there blocking.

I honestly can't remember a real west coast system employing 2 TE's, or 4 WR's?

[QUOTE]Now how about you come up with a point better than: They should've gotten OL / DL or Campbell won't be able to throw if he doesn't have time[/QUOTE]

Something better than that? I guess you don't find that important?
I thought the point was pretty pointed, a QB needs time to throw, and with an ageing line and no real depth that can be a real problem especially the way you have us utilizing all these receivers.

Tell me if the blocking is as it has been for the most part since Campbells arrival, how is he going to have the time to utilize a 4 receiver set?

Re: Redskins Insider: Draft Review
 

Well JLC's promise to the fans was that if the team started winning his tone would change. He said something like this in 2006. Then we made the playoffs last year and he got crankier than ever. The key moment that proved to me that he had lost it was when he slammed the skins for trading Archuleta, the snitch with the massive salary who they were going to cut anyway and yet somehow got a pick for. You don't have to know much about football to recognize that that was a coup for us, but JLC somehow found fault with it.

Him and Boswell seem to echo the same argument, could the Skins really be right about players that the rest of the league (or at least the few teams that JLC talks to) evaluated differently. While only time will tell, by JLC's logic a team should never draft a sliding player because the league must know something. Miami shouldn't have drafted Marino and the Bucs shouldn't have drafted Sapp because, really, could the rest of the league be wrong?

While you can debate the strategy of drafting quality over need, you can't argue that our second round players were steals based on their consensus projections (in spite of what JLC's snippety secret sources charge). Kudos to the FO for sticking by their board.

Does anyone else get the feeling that if we had drafted Mike Jenkins at 21 JLC would be complaining about how we should have traded down, and that his sources thought Jenkins was a second round talent?

Re: Redskins Insider: Draft Review
 

[QUOTE=HOGTIMUS PRIME;445636]WOW, finally someone who can stuff 10lbs of bologna in a 5lbs bag.

4 WR sets? And wheres the nearest hospital? Because Campbell is on his way he just don't know it yet.

Cooley is now a fullback? Or is it Davis? Regardless neither is known for there blocking.

I honestly can't remember a real west coast system employing 2 TE's, or 4 WR's?



Something better than that? I guess you don't find that important?
I thought the point was pretty pointed, a QB needs time to throw, and with an ageing line and no real depth that can be a real problem especially the way you have us utilizing all these receivers.

Tell me if the blocking is as it has been for the most part since Campbells arrival, how is he going to have the time to utilize a 4 receiver set?[/QUOTE]

Keep in mind that Zorn has been heavily influenced by Holmgren...so with that in mind

[url=http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/football/wcoff09.shtml]Effective by any name: Holmgren disputes 'West Coast' title, not results[/url]

"We run a lot more single-back, [B]four-receiver offense [/B]than we ever did in San Francisco," Holmgren said."

[url=http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs05/columns/story?columnist=clayton_john&id=2310938]ESPN - Holmgren's scheme will be challenged by 3-4 look - NFL[/url]

"[B]Sometimes, he'll use four-receiver sets, [/B]with plays similar to the run-and-shoot featuring one back. True to the West Coast offense, Holmgren also will run out of those multiple-receiver sets. "

And there's this

[url=http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/football/archives/137553.asp?from=blog_last3]Zorn gets his ... men[/url]

"The addition of Davis will allow the Redskins to do what the Seahawks used to do when they had Itula Mili and Jerramy Stevens – which is, show [B]two-tight end personnel in the huddle, only to go with a four-wide formation by slotting the tight ends."[/B]

And I'd hardly say we have [u]no[/u] depth on the O Line. And I don't know what games you've been watching but the blocking has not been so abysmal as you imply since Campbell's arrival.

Re: Redskins Insider: Draft Review
 

[QUOTE=HOGTIMUS PRIME;445636]

4 WR sets? And wheres the nearest hospital? Because Campbell is on his way he just don't know it yet.

Cooley is now a fullback? Or is it Davis? Regardless neither is known for there blocking.

[B]I honestly can't remember a real west coast system employing 2 TE's, or 4 WR's?
[/B]

[/QUOTE]


I seem to recall the Seahawks employing 4 wr sets very liberally, to tremendous effect. When a west coast system is run correctly it is very difficult to get to the quarterback since the ball is released so quickly.

Re: Redskins Insider: Draft Review
 

For the record, I am not a fan of this draft despite the positive feedback from most draft experts.
As I've posted in other threads, it takes a wr three years to become a full time starter (on avg, I know there are exceptions like Randy Moss). At that time, Moss and ARE will both be 31. If Thomas and Kelly become the great wr's that the FO believes, then we are in the great position of trying to keep everyone happy with only one football.
I don't think it's possible to please everyone with this draft with the amount of holes we have. Personally, I wanted DL and CB early and OL and LB for depth. With a top 10 defense I see why we went offense but I disagree.
I hate using early picks on WR. Outside of QB, I think it is the hardest position to project from college to pro.
That being said, JLC (and Boswell) will find any reason to rip Danny and Cerrato. It was weird hearing so many NFL insiders and experts praise Cerrato as great talent evaluator when JLC and his minions paint him as the dumbest SOB to ever work in an NFL FO.

Re: Redskins Insider: Draft Review
 

Hey all. First post here. I have been a Skins fan my whole life and I have lived in the NOVA area my whole life. I tend to agree with most of you about JLC.

I do want to say that I really liked the Skin's picks. I understand that we got a free pick and that what we did we could afford to do because of the awesome awesome trade they were able to pull of. I also like the fact that we took two shots on a WR and that the odds are we get a really good possibly great player out of one of them.

I can see the positives....but...

There are a couple of things I would have done differently and one would have been taking Quentin Groves or Calais Campbell instead of one of the guys we took in the 2nd. I would probably have leaned toward taking Groves over Campbell. In terms of pure pass rushing capability this kid is off the charts and was arguably the best pure pass rusher in the draft. He is a beast. Groves is smaller but that would give us more flexibility with him. Most people compare him to DeMarcus Ware.

Still cannot understand, and will probably never understand, why the Skins did not jump at one of those 2 guys when the DE position is so glaring of a need. If there is one thing that guys like JLC and Boswell have pegged it is that Snerrato run things like a fantasy team... and I am sure it is more of Snyder and his arrogance and child-like petulance.

I really would have loved for the Skins to have picked up Owen Schmitt from WVU... they would have needed to have used the 4th on him though. We do have Mike Sellers who is a hammerhead as well so this would have been a luxury pick and was used on something we need more. Schmitt is one guy that I thought could be the bigtime FB lead blocker that most teams covet. Plus he has very very good offensive skills... alot like Alstott in terms of running people over and always getting 2-3 yards... but he is just as big in the passing game. A true throwback.

I thought the Skins should have maybe taken a LB and Stanford Keglar (a 3 yr starter at Purdue) or Marcus Howard from Georgia and maybe Alvin Bowen would have been great picks with the 4th. I'm not sure about Tryon but he does sure sound like another Fred Smoot and that is OK in my book.... and we got some needed CB depth there.

I had no issues with the punter being taken. He was the best punter in the draft by far and alot of people think he might be an all-time great. I say kudos to that.... we may need to be able to pin people far downfield this year... moreso than the last few years.

I loved the picks of Moore and Horton. I have a feeling that BOTH of these guys may stick. Both like to hit like a mack truck.

Absolutely LOVED the Rinehart pick. This guy is going to be starting sooner rather than later. A real mauler and could be a huge steal.

So.... positives and negatives from this draft. All in all I can't really complain. There is still time to get a roster together so I am pretty sure we will see them pick up an extra DE, LB, OL, and DT as we go on towards the '08 season.

Can't wait to see the team on the field this year... particularly the offense!

Re: Redskins Insider: Draft Review
 

[quote=HOGTIMUS PRIME;445636]Something better than that? I guess you don't find that important?
I thought the point was pretty pointed, a QB needs time to throw, and with an ageing line and no real depth that can be a real problem especially the way you have us utilizing all these receivers.

Tell me if the blocking is as it has been for the most part since Campbells arrival, how is he going to have the time to utilize a 4 receiver set?[/quote]You need to get your facts straight. SS took care of the other points. Here's some OL info from another post.

"No time to throw" would indicate a poor OL. Our OL was above average with all the injuries and as long as Joe Bugel is our line coach, no matter the talent, will continue to be at worst, average. Stats from 2007:

Sacks Allowed - NFL Rank 13th
Sack % - 12th

Rush Yds - 12th
Pass Yds - 14th
INTs - 4th lowest

The only poor OL stat was Yards per Carry and that has as much to do with the playcalling as OL performance.

Our OL has a Pro Bowl LT, a Pro Bowl caliber RG, a solid C, and an above average RT. The only immediate hole we have is at LG and we drafted a G in the 3rd who should be able to fill that position.

You may want to quit while you're behind.

Re: Redskins Insider: Draft Review
 

[quote=HOGTIMUS PRIME;445636]WOW, finally someone who can stuff 10lbs of bologna in a 5lbs bag.

4 WR sets? And wheres the nearest hospital? Because Campbell is on his way he just don't know it yet.

Cooley is now a fullback? Or is it Davis? Regardless neither is known for there blocking.

[B]I honestly can't remember a real west coast system employing 2 T[/B]E's, or 4 WR's?



Something better than that? I guess you don't find that important?
I thought the point was pretty pointed, a QB needs time to throw, and with an ageing line and no real depth that can be a real problem especially the way you have us utilizing all these receivers.

Tell me if the blocking is as it has been for the most part since Campbells arrival, how is he going to have the time to utilize a 4 receiver set?[/quote]

I posted about this in another thread, Bill Walsh use to run 2 TE sets and Denver does as well. I'm pretty sure Green Bay under Holmgren did as well as Seattle now.

The WCO is like any other system, it's going to use multiple formations and 2 TE sets is in that mix somewhere.

Re: Redskins Insider: Draft Review
 

[quote=Fiend;445652]Hey all. First post here. I have been a Skins fan my whole life and I have lived in the NOVA area my whole life. I tend to agree with most of you about JLC.

I do want to say that I really liked the Skin's picks. I understand that we got a free pick and that what we did we could afford to do because of the awesome awesome trade they were able to pull of. I also like the fact that we took two shots on a WR and that the odds are we get a really good possibly great player out of one of them.

I can see the positives....but...

There are a couple of things I would have done differently and one would have been taking Quentin Groves or Calais Campbell instead of one of the guys we took in the 2nd. I would probably have leaned toward taking Groves over Campbell. In terms of pure pass rushing capability this kid is off the charts and was arguably the best pure pass rusher in the draft. He is a beast. Groves is smaller but that would give us more flexibility with him. Most people compare him to DeMarcus Ware.

[B]Still cannot understand, and will probably never understand, why the Skins did not jump at one of those 2 guys when the DE position is so glaring of a need.[/B] If there is one thing that guys like JLC and Boswell have pegged it is that Snerrato run things like a fantasy team... and I am sure it is more of Snyder and his arrogance and child-like petulance.

I really would have loved for the Skins to have picked up Owen Schmitt from WVU... they would have needed to have used the 4th on him though. We do have Mike Sellers who is a hammerhead as well so this would have been a luxury pick and was used on something we need more. Schmitt is one guy that I thought could be the bigtime FB lead blocker that most teams covet. Plus he has very very good offensive skills... alot like Alstott in terms of running people over and always getting 2-3 yards... but he is just as big in the passing game. A true throwback.

I thought the Skins should have maybe taken a LB and Stanford Keglar (a 3 yr starter at Purdue) or Marcus Howard from Georgia and maybe Alvin Bowen would have been great picks with the 4th. I'm not sure about Tryon but he does sure sound like another Fred Smoot and that is OK in my book.... and we got some needed CB depth there.

I had no issues with the punter being taken. He was the best punter in the draft by far and alot of people think he might be an all-time great. I say kudos to that.... we may need to be able to pin people far downfield this year... moreso than the last few years.

I loved the picks of Moore and Horton. I have a feeling that BOTH of these guys may stick. Both like to hit like a mack truck.

Absolutely LOVED the Rinehart pick. This guy is going to be starting sooner rather than later. A real mauler and could be a huge steal.

So.... positives and negatives from this draft. All in all I can't really complain. There is still time to get a roster together so I am pretty sure we will see them pick up an extra DE, LB, OL, and DT as we go on towards the '08 season.

Can't wait to see the team on the field this year... particularly the offense![/quote]

It's simple, they were going by the best player available philisophy and they obviously didn't have those DE's graded out higher than the players they took.

They did have some DEs targeted but they got snatched up before they could grab them. That's how the draft goes sometimes.

Welcome to the board.

Re: Redskins Insider: Draft Review
 

I think the picks are WR were good picks - however I thought they would have gone after the DE from Miami with the second pick since he was still there. the questionable pick was the TE from USC, given we have a probowler there all ready. I think the biggest beef is they have players rated high that generally not a lot of the teams/gm's have rated that high. Kelly's stock steadily declined from the combine as a lot of experts stated, but the Skins still had him as a 1st round talent. I can see where some of the critism may come from. We didn't really address the DE spot that is a glaring need, and since there was a potential started there when we picked Davis it could raise some questions. But overall, I guess we did ok. I personally thought the B may have been a little high, but when you look at value of the picks it falls in line.

Re: Redskins Insider: Draft Review
 

[QUOTE=#56fanatic;445706]I think the picks are WR were good picks - however I thought they would have gone after the DE from Miami with the second pick since he was still there. the questionable pick was the TE from USC, given we have a probowler there all ready. I think the biggest beef is they have players rated high that generally not a lot of the teams/gm's have rated that high. Kelly's stock steadily declined from the combine as a lot of experts stated, but the Skins still had him as a 1st round talent. I can see where some of the critism may come from. We didn't really address the DE spot that is a glaring need, and since there was a potential started there when we picked Davis it could raise some questions. But overall, I guess we did ok. I personally thought the B may have been a little high, but when you look at value of the picks it falls in line.[/QUOTE]

Kelly was maybe going to go 9. He was there at 51. It doesn't seem like anyone except for two Washington journalists feel we were pumping up players on our board or misevaluating prospects relative to the rest of the league. The national media universally loves what we did.

Re: Redskins Insider: Draft Review
 

Fiend makes a good point; they may have picked the 2 wideouts to play the averages, realizing that it's likely one of them either doesn't pan out at all or just becomes a career backup. Add to that, since they moved back w/the trade, the expense won't be much to take the chance that one or all of these guys will be great.

As Matty said, they followed the board & the DEs they liked were gone when thier picks came up. I think this is really the core of this debate between us & JLC/boswell. Should you follow the "board" & draft the best available or draft based on need. It may be that you can do both to some degree, and I think that's what Boswell criticized them for as if they were following the board w/no regard to need.

I think he makes a good point & I think JLC overall has a strong argument, it may just be the way he phrases it w/references to "league sources" & such. I was really surprised by the Davis selection, but the guy is a beast. Also, people so often are referring to TEs as recievers, well they do block on the line as well & Joe Gibbs can tell you how important a good blocking TE is to a running game.

Overall, I look at this relatively. While I would've liked to have gotten a couple more o or d llinemen, instead of trading away picks we actually ended up w/ an additional pick & raised the chances that this draft will produce some players that are in b&g for years to come.

Re: Redskins Insider: Draft Review
 

[QUOTE=freddyg12;445718]Fiend makes a good point; they may have picked the 2 wideouts to play the averages, realizing that it's likely one of them either doesn't pan out at all or just becomes a career backup. Add to that, since they moved back w/the trade, the expense won't be much to take the chance that one or all of these guys will be great.

As Matty said, they followed the board & the DEs they liked were gone when thier picks came up. I think this is really the core of this debate between us & JLC/boswell. Should you follow the "board" & draft the best available or draft based on need. It may be that you can do both to some degree, and I think that's what Boswell criticized them for as if they were following the board w/no regard to need.

I think he makes a good point & I think JLC overall has a strong argument, it may just be the way he phrases it w/references to "league sources" & such. I was really surprised by the Davis selection, but the guy is a beast. Also, people so often are referring to TEs as recievers, well they do block on the line as well & Joe Gibbs can tell you how important a good blocking TE is to a running game.

Overall, I look at this relatively. While I would've liked to have gotten a couple more o or d llinemen, [B]instead of trading away picks we actually ended up w/ an additional pick & raised the chances that this draft will produce some players that are in b&g for years to come[/B].[/QUOTE]


this brings tears to my eyes... How long have we waited for this? I agree with this and even though the draft is over, there is still FA and UDFA that we have to deal with. With the way the front office handled the draft, I have no doubts at whether or not they will pick up depth at OL or DL.

Re: Redskins Insider: Draft Review
 

some people just aren't going to be happy unless they themselves are making the picks... and i can imagine what a disaster that would be... (cue randomly inserted smootsmack jab)

Re: Redskins Insider: Draft Review
 

[QUOTE=That Guy;445932]some people just aren't going to be happy unless they themselves are making the picks... and i can imagine what a disaster that would be... (cue randomly inserted smootsmack jab)[/QUOTE]

Jeez, all this because I thought you kinda reminded me of Natalie Portman. You should be flattered...or disturbed

Re: Redskins Insider: Draft Review
 

[QUOTE=Slingin Sammy 33;445669]You need to get your facts straight. SS took care of the other points. Here's some OL info from another post.

"No time to throw" would indicate a poor OL. Our OL was above average with all the injuries and as long as Joe Bugel is our line coach, no matter the talent, will continue to be at worst, average. Stats from 2007:

Sacks Allowed - NFL Rank 13th
Sack % - 12th

Rush Yds - 12th
Pass Yds - 14th
INTs - 4th lowest

The only poor OL stat was Yards per Carry and that has as much to do with the playcalling as OL performance.

Our OL has a Pro Bowl LT, a Pro Bowl caliber RG, a solid C, and an above average RT. The only immediate hole we have is at LG and we drafted a G in the 3rd who should be able to fill that position.

You may want to quit while you're behind.[/QUOTE]

Your kidding right? So YPC is not the lines fault? We have been at the bottom of that category for years, are you proud of those numbers you sited? Not 1 top 10 category, with the exception of INT's and your not going to contribute that to conservative play calling?

Do you watch the games or just read the stats? Jansen can no longer hold the point of attack, he is constantly being pushed backwards which is in part a reason why he can't stay healthy any longer he is just being over powered he is also slowed down because he's been beaten to the outside far to frequent these days, both Thomas [if he can stay healthy] and Raback are quality players not great, yes samuels goes without saying.

It seems your awfully satisfied with as you put it "at best average"

So lets see if I got this correct, 1, YPC is not the offensive lines fault with a potential HOF RB in his prime running behind them. 2, #13 in sacks allowed in a if he's not open throw it away offense is good? How do explain a HOF coach with a top all time line coach in Bugel are average? Could it be the line? See those numbers that you site are low for 1 reason Gibbs had our QB's throw it away at the first sign of trouble, that is why we didn't have more sacks, that is why we didn't have more INT's, and still we were average in those categories.


See my facts are straight we just differ on what is acceptable, and average is not acceptable to me. I see big need for improvement on the O-line, you believe it will just happen because we are the redskins, and Bugel will wave his magic wand and fixes everything. I guess we can count the right side of the line staying healthy even though that has been a real problem recently especially when you consider there age? And a lot of stock in a 3rd rd pick to take over the left guard spot. And don't site Heyer to me he is a slow footed at best backup in this league who was beaten like a rented mule in the playoffs last season.

The bottom line is our line right now as it stands does not get a push off the ball they are not physical enough to CONTROL the LOS, they can possibly and I say POSSIBLY hold their ground but that is about it with this group, other than Samuels no one on this line can push D-linemen backwards, and that is a huge problem, it is also what makes them AVERAGE!

Re: Redskins Insider: Draft Review
 

I agree with HOGTIMUS PRIME on one point, and that's if our evaluation of our OL graded it out as average, then it almost certainly was poor methodology to draft some receivers from an average to below average class.

More likely, we felt that the 5 guys we have on the OL are above average, and that mid to late round draft picks could fufill the need for the future. I'm O.K. with that reasoning, but Vinny better be right about the OL then.