Re: Should Hillary Hang It Up?
 

[quote=Buster;448377]Completely agreed. Those accusations are asinine.

IF someone votes for or against Obama simply because he's black, that's not racist, it's just ignorant and stupid.

IF someone votes for or against Clinton simply because she's a woman, that's not sexist, it's just ignorant and stupid.

IF someone votes for or against McCain simply because he's an older man, that's not *create new PC term*-ist, it's just ignorant and stupid.[/quote]


OMG, you can't possibly be serious. Ignorant and stupid? I think you might want to actually check the definition of what [URL="http://www.answers.com/racism&r=67"]racism[/URL] is. Unless I am not aware of my own ignorants I do believe not voting for someone because they are black rather than on the merits of their character and position IS racist (it falls under "discrimination or prejudice based on race" definition).

p.s. Same principle applies in sexism and [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_Discrimination_in_Employment_Act"]ageism[/URL] which is NOT a new PC term.

Re: Should Hillary Hang It Up?
 

To me racism and sexism stems from stupidity and ignorance.

Re: Should Hillary Hang It Up?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;448392]To me racism and sexism stems from stupidity and ignorance.[/quote]

Exactly, to be racist is to be ignorant and stupid. Let's not however redefine racism to it's simpler form because it's really more nefarious than ignorance and stupidity. When someone says I'm never voting for a black man what rational could there possibly be for their position? He's less capable? His presidency would be detrimental to white people?

Re: Should Hillary Hang It Up?
 

good post SC skins fan. and gtripp, show me where McCain stands in between an issue?

Re: Should Hillary Hang It Up?
 

[quote=onlydarksets;448254]It's the first presidential race since 1948 where there wasn't an incumbent of some sort running. That alone has made it more interesting.[/quote]

Truman was the sitting President in 1948. In 1952 with Eisenhower vs. Stevenson, neither was an incumbent. Also 1928, Hoover vs. Al Smith. Hoover was Secretary of Commerce and Smith was the Catholic Governor of New York. 1908 Taft vs. W.J. Bryan. Taft had been Secretary of War and Bryan was the oft-defeated populist Democrat. 1896 McKinley vs. Bryan. McKInley was Governor of Ohio, I believe. Also there could be an interesting discussion about wether or not Grover Cleveland should be considered an incumbent in 1892. He was the non-consecutive President. I guess he should NOT be considered an incumbent as the stink of office had surely faded somewhat. Perhaps someone else can pick up the trail from here. Some of you could stand doing a little research.

Re: Should Hillary Hang It Up?
 

[QUOTE=70Chip;448448]Truman was the sitting President in 1948. In 1952 with Eisenhower vs. Stevenson, neither was an incumbent. Also 1928, Hoover vs. Al Smith. Hoover was Secretary of Commerce and Smith was the Catholic Governor of New York. 1908 Taft vs. W.J. Bryan. Taft had been Secretary of War and Bryan was the oft-defeated populist Democrat. 1896 McKinley vs. Bryan. McKInley was Governor of Ohio, I believe. Also there could be an interesting discussion about wether or not Grover Cleveland should be considered an incumbent in 1892. He was the non-consecutive President. I guess he should NOT be considered an incumbent as the stink of office had surely faded somewhat. Perhaps someone else can pick up the trail from here. Some of you could stand doing a little research.[/QUOTE]

In his defense, he did say [I]since[/I] 1948. So, he should have said since 1952.

Re: Should Hillary Hang It Up?
 

[QUOTE=70Chip;448448][B]Truman was the sitting President in 1948. In 1952 with Eisenhower vs. Stevenson, neither was an incumbent. [/B] Also 1928, Hoover vs. Al Smith. Hoover was Secretary of Commerce and Smith was the Catholic Governor of New York. 1908 Taft vs. W.J. Bryan. Taft had been Secretary of War and Bryan was the oft-defeated populist Democrat. 1896 McKinley vs. Bryan. McKInley was Governor of Ohio, I believe. Also there could be an interesting discussion about wether or not Grover Cleveland should be considered an incumbent in 1892. He was the non-consecutive President. I guess he should NOT be considered an incumbent as the stink of office had surely faded somewhat. Perhaps someone else can pick up the trail from here. Some of you could stand doing a little research.[/QUOTE]

All you had to say was the part I bolded. The rest of the information is a nice little tidbit. But then the last line is out of place because it seems like it was an attack on the knowledge of the poster you quoted. Yet he never said anything about pre-1948.

Re: Should Hillary Hang It Up?
 

I meant Ike, but got the year wrong - I had to do my own research on this, so cut me some slack.
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election]United States presidential election - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url]

Re: Should Hillary Hang It Up?
 

Hilary should hang it up now, because John Edwards is now endorsing Obama.

Re: Should Hillary Hang It Up?
 

[quote=SeanTaylor21;448496]Hilary should hang it up now, because John Edwards is now endorsing Obama.[/quote]

He also got the endorsement of the NARAL (National Abortion and Reproductive Rights Action League) today.

Which is pretty much a slap in the face to Clinton.

Re: Should Hillary Hang It Up?
 

[quote=DynamiteRave;448499]He also got the endorsement of the NARAL (National Abortion and Reproductive Rights Action League) today.

Which is pretty much a slap in the face to Clinton.[/quote]

Ouch, Hillary got gashed today. NARAL's blog [URL="http://www.blogforchoice.com/archives/2008/05/naral-prochoice-6.html"]is on fire[/URL]...so many angry women.

Re: Should Hillary Hang It Up?
 

[QUOTE=70Chip;448123]So people who don't vote for Obama are racist. I'm sure we'll all get a bellyful of this logic between now and November.

Also, it wasn't the Clintons that declared Bill Clinton to be the first black president, it was Toni Morrison. If Black America has a problem with him now, they only have themselves to blame. They were the backbone of his support and if not for them he would have surely been driven from office in disgrace and we would all have been rid of him.[/QUOTE]

People who say they didn't vote for Obama because of race are, to me, racist, and according to polls that was 20 percent of white voters in West Virginia. A recent Washington Post article has some pretty stunning anecdotes from some Obama volunteers [url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/12/AR2008051203014_pf.html]Racist Incidents Give Some Obama Campaigners Pause[/url] . Let's not get all delusional and pretend that race doesn't exist in America anymore. While it's true that not supporting Obama doesn't make you a racist, it's insane to pretend that it won't be a factor in this race - and as an American that shames me.

And come on, Toni Morrison, while a tremendous author, is neither an intellectual nor a political leader in black America. Clinton remained in office because he enjoyed broad political support in various demographic groups. If "black America" wants to support a different candidate now it's not your place to patronizingly tell "them" that they essentially are reaping what they sowed. It's crazy that you blame "black America" for the success of one of the most popular presidents in modern history, whom you happen to disagree with.

Re: Should Hillary Hang It Up?
 

[QUOTE=djnemo65;448510]People who say they didn't vote for Obama because of race are, to me, racist, and according to polls that was 20 percent of white voters in West Virginia. A recent Washington Post article has some pretty stunning anecdotes from some Obama volunteers [url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/12/AR2008051203014_pf.html]Racist Incidents Give Some Obama Campaigners Pause[/url] . Let's not get all delusional and pretend that race doesn't exist in America anymore. While it's true that not supporting Obama doesn't make you a racist, it's insane to pretend that it won't be a factor in this race - and as an American that shames me.[/QUOTE]

True. To play devil's advocate though, what about those that would vote for Obama [u]because[/u] he's Black?

Just throwing it out there. I think Obama could be a fine President, I just personally don't happen to agree with a lot of his opinions

Re: Should Hillary Hang It Up?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;448513]True. To play devil's advocate though, what about those that would vote for Obama [U]because[/U] he's Black?

Just throwing it out there. I think Obama could be a fine President, I just personally don't happen to agree with a lot of his opinions[/quote]

It's wrong on all levels. If you don't believe in someone's message and you're just voting without considering the issues you're racist.

A lot has recently been made that the African American community is voting for Obama becasue he is black. Truth if Obama was a republican he would get the same amount of votes you'd expect Clarence Thomas or Alan Keys to get from African Americans. The reason he's winning the black vote is largely due to his appeal and the ineptness of the Clintons not because he's black. There's also the hope factor.

Re: Should Hillary Hang It Up?
 

[QUOTE=saden1;448515]It's wrong on all levels. If you don't believe in someone's message and you're just voting without considering the issues you're racist.

A lot has recently been made that the African American community is voting for Obama becasue he is black. Truth if Obama was a republican he would get the same amount of votes you'd expect Clarence Thomas or Alan Keys to get from African Americans. The reason he's winning the black vote is largely due to his appeal and the ineptness of the Clintons not because he's black. There's also the hope factor.[/QUOTE]

Funny you mention Alan Keyes. Didn't Obama win his Senate seat by defeating Keyes (after Ditka decided not to run)?

Re: Should Hillary Hang It Up?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;448517]Funny you mention Alan Keyes. Didn't Obama win his Senate seat by defeating Keyes (after Ditka decided not to run)?[/quote]

Yes sir, I guess he was so good the GOP thought it best to bring in Alan Keyes who isn't from Illinois to run against him. [URL="http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/IL/"]He killed him with 70% of the vote.[/URL]

Re: Should Hillary Hang It Up?
 

[QUOTE=saden1;448519]Yes sir, I guess he was so good the GOP thought it best to bring in Alan Keyes who isn't from Illinois to run against him. [URL="http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/IL/"]He killed him with 70% of the vote.[/URL][/QUOTE]

And to think it all began because of some kinky sex allegations by Jeri Ryan (mmmm...Jeri Ryan, drooool)

Re: Should Hillary Hang It Up?
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;448513]True. To play devil's advocate though, what about those that would vote for Obama [u]because[/u] he's Black?[/QUOTE]

It's no secret that some people are voting for Obama largely because of his race. It's also no secret that a small minority of Americans are voting against Obama because of his race. I think, however, there is a subtle, yet important distinction between voting for someone because of his/her race and voting against someone because of his/her race.

Mindful of our not so distant past, many Americans find it thrilling to see an African-American on the cusp of becoming our nation's leader. It signals a seismic shift in politics and race relations. It also gives hope to many minorities that they can aspire to become important figures in our society. So, in a sense, I can understand why some people vote for Obama, in part or whole, because he is African-American. It may be dumb to do so, but it is understandable.

On the other hand, to vote against someone because they are African-American is simply racist. I don't think I need to elaborate on this point. So, whereas the former group votes out of hope, the latter group votes out of hate. That's a sweeping generalization and it's not so simple, but I think it captures the gist of how I see this issue.

Personally, I would NEVER consciously vote for or against anyone because of his/her race. Superficial distinctions like race should not be used as a factor in determining whether someone should ascend to the highest position of power in the world.

Finally, as Saden noted, I do not think Obama's race is what is propelling his candidacy. Jesse Jackson didn't go too far in his bid for the presidency and neither did Alan Keyes. Obama has that "it" factor that Reagan, Kennedy and FDR did.

Re: Should Hillary Hang It Up?
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;448513][b]True. To play devil's advocate though, what about those that would vote for Obama [u]because[/u] he's Black? [/b]

Just throwing it out there. I think Obama could be a fine President, I just personally don't happen to agree with a lot of his opinions[/QUOTE]

That's not a point people want to speak about though. It's ok / pc to be racist for blacks, just not against them.
Racism is racism, and all of it should cease.

Re: Should Hillary Hang It Up?
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;448528]That's not a point people want to speak about though. It's ok / pc to be racist for blacks, just not against them.
Racism is racism, and all of it should cease.[/QUOTE]

I think we all agree that racism, in whatever form, should cease. The question here is whether it is racist to vote for a presidential candidate in part or whole because that candidate is black.

If your answer is yes, why? I assume your response is that any decision which is affected by someone's race is inherently a racist one. If that is the case, does that mean President Nixon was a racist because his administration aggressively pushed affirmative action? Or how about people who choose not to date people from a similar ethnic background? Does that mean that people who won't adopt kids from outside their race are racist?

I think it's sometimes difficult to discern what is really racist.

Re: Should Hillary Hang It Up?
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;448522]It's no secret that some people are voting for Obama largely because of his race. It's also no secret that a small minority of Americans are voting against Obama because of his race. I think, however, there is a subtle, yet important distinction between voting for someone because of his/her race and voting against someone because of his/her race.

Mindful of our not so distant past, many Americans find it thrilling to see an African-American on the cusp of becoming our nation's leader. It signals a seismic shift in politics and race relations. It also gives hope to many minorities that they can aspire to become important figures in our society. So, in a sense, I can understand why some people vote for Obama, in part or whole, because he is African-American. It may be dumb to do so, but it is understandable.

On the other hand, to vote against someone because they are African-American is simply racist. I don't think I need to elaborate on this point. So, whereas the former group votes out of hope, the latter group votes out of hate. That's a sweeping generalization and it's not so simple, but I think it captures the gist of how I see this issue.

Personally, I would NEVER consciously vote for or against anyone because of his/her race. Superficial distinctions like race should not be used as a factor in determining whether someone should ascend to the highest position of power in the world.

Finally, as Saden noted, I do not think Obama's race is what is propelling his candidacy. Jesse Jackson didn't go too far in his bid for the presidency and neither did Alan Keyes. Obama has that "it" factor that Reagan, Kennedy and FDR did.[/QUOTE]

Good points.

Re: Should Hillary Hang It Up?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;448453]All you had to say was the part I bolded. The rest of the information is a nice little tidbit. But then the last line is out of place because it seems like it was an attack on the knowledge of the poster you quoted. Yet he never said anything about pre-1948.[/quote]

I didn't intend it as an attack on the original poster. He was close and his general point is well taken. There has been an historical shift towards V.P.s as successor candidates. If you think that America has suffered for it, you can find hope in this years candidates. Research can be illuminating.

Re: Should Hillary Hang It Up?
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;448532]I think we all agree that racism, in whatever form, should cease. [B]The question here is whether it is racist to vote for a presidential candidate in part or whole because that candidate is black.[/B]

If your answer is yes, why? I assume your response is that any decision which is affected by someone's race is inherently a racist one. If that is the case, does that mean President Nixon was a racist because his administration aggressively pushed affirmative action? Or how about people who choose not to date people from a similar ethnic background? Does that mean that people who won't adopt kids from outside their race are racist?

I think it's sometimes difficult to discern what is really racist.[/quote]

There has to be an apt rational to justify in part, but to vote for someone in whole because they're black is unacceptable because to vote against someone because they're black is equally unacceptable.

Personally, I believe electing Obama as presidents is an indication that America has come a long ways since the days of slavery and jim crow. It's an indication of progress as well as hope. It tells young African Americans that anything is possible. Finally, we'll be able to stick it to rest of the world (especially Europe) and show them that we don't just talk the talk but that we walk the walk.

Re: Should Hillary Hang It Up?
 

[quote=70Chip;448537]I didn't intend it as an attack on the original poster. He was close and his general point is well taken. There has been an historical shift towards V.P.s as successor candidates. If you think that America has suffered for it, you can find hope in this years candidates. Research can be illuminating.[/quote]

I wonder when you might grace us with insight into your research and analysis of the republican electorate. You know, make up, education level, social status, NASCAR viewing habits, affinity for guns, sexual preference, etc.

Re: Should Hillary Hang It Up?
 

[QUOTE=saden1;448538]There has to be a apt rational to justify in part, but to vote for someone in whole because they're black is unacceptable because to vote against someone because they're black is equally unacceptable.

Personally, I believe electing Obama as presidents is an indication that America has come a long ways since the days of slavery and jim crow. It's an indication of progress as well as hope. It tells young African Americans that anything is possible. Finally, we'll be able to stick it to rest of the world (especially Europe) and show them that we don't just talk the talk but that we walk the walk.[/QUOTE]

We could (could have?) to an extent said the same about electing Hillary. I think I've mentioned it before a while back, but we see electing a woman to be the leader of our nation as some huge step forward but there are/have been woman in charge of countries all over the world for several years. Some of the most promiment nations have had women lead them through major events throughout history (and I'm not talking about royalty)

Re: Should Hillary Hang It Up?
 

[QUOTE=saden1;448539]I wonder when you might grace us with insight into your research and analysis of the republican electorate. You know, make up, education level, social status, NASCAR viewing habits, affinity for guns, sexual preference, etc.[/QUOTE]

Well you know, speaking for myself, some Nivea for Men products, MBA, big pimpin, not as much lately, I liked water guns as a kid, and often

Re: Should Hillary Hang It Up?
 

[quote=djnemo65;448510]People who say they didn't vote for Obama because of race are, to me, racist, and according to polls that was 20 percent of white voters in West Virginia. A recent Washington Post article has some pretty stunning anecdotes from some Obama volunteers [URL="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/12/AR2008051203014_pf.html"]Racist Incidents Give Some Obama Campaigners Pause[/URL] . Let's not get all delusional and pretend that race doesn't exist in America anymore. While it's true that not supporting Obama doesn't make you a racist, it's insane to pretend that it won't be a factor in this race - and as an American that shames me.

And come on, Toni Morrison, while a tremendous author, is neither an intellectual nor a political leader in black America. Clinton remained in office because he enjoyed broad political support in various demographic groups. If "black America" wants to support a different candidate now it's not your place to patronizingly tell "them" that they essentially are reaping what they sowed. It's crazy that you blame "black America" for the success of one of the most popular presidents in modern history, whom you happen to disagree with.[/quote]

I was merely pointing out that Bill Clinton did not declare himself to be America's first black President as a previous poster was claiming. I also don't accept your claim that Bill Clinton is "one of the most popular Presidents in American history". He was elected with 43% of the vote in 1992 and 49% of the vote in 1996. Johnson, Nixon, and Reagan were all re-elected to office with nearly 60% of the vote. Clinton had high approval numbers but most Americans were extremely wary of him for obvious reasons. They should be obvious to everyone now at any rate. Bill Clinton avoided forced resignation by the skin of his teeth. If it weren't for the blindly enthusiastic support he got from the various Democratic interest groups-if any one of them had abandoned him-he would have been toast. This is why blacks feel so betrayed by him now. They had his back at the crucial hour.

If Obama and his supporters endeavor to make a habit of charging racism whenever he has difficulty, then the American people in their great wisdom will soundly reject him. He lost in West Virginia because those people take a highly pragmatic view of things. They know the Clintons and what they stand for. Obama is still largely an unknown quantity. He's never really done anything. That's the reality he has to confront. It's easier to chalk it up to racism and I think for many Liberals it actually feels good to do it, but ultimately it is not helpful. Obama would be smart to come right and say he doesn't believe it was racism. He should say that the people of West Virginia are good people, etc. etc. That's the road to victory for him. Not the quagmire of race. He needs to be post-racial. If his Liberal supporters are determined to indulge in that sort of thing, he's sunk. He needs to convince the American people that he believes in his heart that they are not racist. That will get him the votes he needs to win.

Re: Should Hillary Hang It Up?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;448540][B]We could (could have?) to an extent said the same about electing Hillary.[/B] I think I've mentioned it before a while back, but we see electing a woman to be the leader of our nation as some huge step forward but there are/have been woman in charge of countries all over the world for several years. Some of the most promiment nations have had women lead them through major events throughout history (and I'm not talking about royalty)[/quote]


Of course, I'm all for my wife, sister, mother, grand mother. I suppose if Hillary hadn't thought me retarded, stopped patronizing me, and conducted a positive campaign she would have my vote.

Re: Should Hillary Hang It Up?
 

[quote=saden1;448539]I wonder when you might grace us with insight into your research and analysis of the republican electorate. You know, make up, education level, social status, NASCAR viewing habits, affinity for guns, sexual preference, etc.[/quote]

Based on what happened in Mississippee yesterday, I would say the Republican elecorate is down to myself, the editors of National Review, and a couple of students at Liberty University.

Re: Should Hillary Hang It Up?
 

[quote=70Chip;448542]I was merely pointing out that Bill Clinton did not declare himself to be America's first black President as a previous poster was claiming. I also don't accept your claim that Bill Clinton is "one of the most popular Presidents in American history". He was elected with 43% of the vote in 1992 and 49% of the vote in 1996. Johnson, Nixon, and Reagan were all re-elected to office with nearly 60% of the vote. Clinton had high approval numbers but most Americans were extremely wary of him for obvious reasons. They should be obvious to everyone now at any rate. Bill Clinton avoided forced resignation by the skin of his teeth. If it weren't for the blindly enthusiastic support he got from the various Democratic interest groups-if any one of them had abandoned him-he would have been toast. This is why blacks feel so betrayed by him now. They had his back at the crucial hour.

If Obama and his supporters endeavor to make a habit of charging racism whenever he has difficulty, then the American people in their great wisdom will soundly reject him. He lost in West Virginia because those people take a highly pragmatic view of things. They know the Clintons and what they stand for. Obama is still largely an unknown quantity. He's never really done anything. That's the reality he has to confront. It's easier to chalk it up to racism and I think for many Liberals it actually feels good to do it, but ultimately it is not helpful. Obama would be smart to come right and say he doesn't believe it was racism. He should say that the people of West Virginia are good people, etc. etc. That's the road to victory for him. Not the quagmire of race. He needs to be post-racial. If his Liberal supporters are determined to indulge in that sort of thing, he's sunk. He needs to convince the American people that he believes in his heart that they are not racist. That will get him the votes he needs to win.[/quote]


God help us with [URL="http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/2a50425a-1f86-11dd-9216-000077b07658,s01=1.html?nclick_check=1"]low information voters[/URL]. West Virginia is really a special place and not the good kind of special (I know, sounds terrible and it feels just as terrible to say that):

[QUOTE]West Virginia is hostile territory for Mr Obama because it has few of the African-Americans and affluent, college-educated whites who provide his strongest support. The state has the lowest college graduation rate in the US, the second lowest median household income, and one of the highest proportions of white residents, at 96 per cent.[/QUOTE]

The ignorance is mind boggling:
[yt]7i7j3sQUusw[/yt]

And of course the you have the women vote in play too:
[yt]SbkyJLiax8E[/yt]

Re: Should Hillary Hang It Up?
 

[quote=70Chip;448544]Based on what happened in Mississippee yesterday, I would say the Republican elecorate is down to myself, the editors of National Review, and a couple of students at Liberty University.[/quote]

lol...that's pretty funny.

Re: Should Hillary Hang It Up?
 

I am a little surprised that no one has come to West Virginia's defense by pointing out why West Virginia is a state to begin with. The good people there had no interest whatsoever in fighting and dying over the institution of slavery. And that was nearly 150 years ago. They must not be really, really racist. Or perhaps they are as I said before, a very pragmatic people.

Re: Should Hillary Hang It Up?
 

[quote=70Chip;448548]I am a little surprised that no one has come to West Virginia's defense by pointing out why West Virginia is a state to begin with. The good people there had no interest whatsoever in fighting and dying over the institution of slavery. And that was nearly 150 years ago. They must not be really, really racist. Or perhaps they are as I said before, a very pragmatic people.[/quote]

I said nothing of the people of WV being racist. I am, however, saying that they are as diverse as platypuses and as educated as Neanderthals. And of course you can also take a look at the [URL="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21226014"]exit polls [/URL]and make your own judgment.

Re: Should Hillary Hang It Up?
 

OK, then, ill say it. know lots of people from West Virginia. these people would sooner vote for a beat up car, on blocks, in their front yard, then vote for any black. still have alot of old school, confederate flag waving hillbillies livin up in them there hills

Re: Should Hillary Hang It Up?
 

[quote=dmek25;448553]OK, then, ill say it. know lots of people from West Virginia. these people would sooner vote for a beat up car, on blocks, in their front yard, then vote for any black. still have alot of old school, confederate flag waving hillbillies livin up in them there hills[/quote]I lived the better part of my life in WV and I can definetly confirm that. The high school I went to was 99.9999% white and still is today. Racism was and still is a big part of life in WV. I moved away from there about 8 years ago. I only live about 20 minutes from Wv now and the difference is amazing.

Re: Should Hillary Hang It Up?
 

I don't know whether racism played a big part in the WV race. Yes, I have seen polls indicating that many WV residents would never vote for an African American. But, WV residents are, on the whole, poor and uneducated ... that's the very same demographic that Hillary has been targeting throughout her campaign.

Re: Should Hillary Hang It Up?
 

Before it's all said and done, I think Barack will double back to WVA and re-introduce himself to the good folks of West Virginia. He might --might--carry the state in the General, but if he doesn't I'm still not convinced it's political suicide. Still, some pundits are worried.

An interesting stat the Clintons have been tossing out there since Tuesday's win is that no Democrat has won the White House without winning West Virginia since 1916.

I think it's also worth noting that we've never had an African-American to win the nomination either. And to take it a step further, we've never had an African-American and women vying for the nomination. So I think while those statistics are good indicators and benchmarks, it's also important to note that we are in unchartered territory. We continue to use old rules and "yesterday's" electoral map for a new type of election, with new candidates.

Re: Should Hillary Hang It Up?
 

[QUOTE=70Chip;448542]I was merely pointing out that Bill Clinton did not declare himself to be America's first black President as a previous poster was claiming. I also don't accept your claim that Bill Clinton is "one of the most popular Presidents in American history". He was elected with 43% of the vote in 1992 and 49% of the vote in 1996. Johnson, Nixon, and Reagan were all re-elected to office with nearly 60% of the vote. Clinton had high approval numbers but most Americans were extremely wary of him for obvious reasons. They should be obvious to everyone now at any rate. Bill Clinton avoided forced resignation by the skin of his teeth. If it weren't for the blindly enthusiastic support he got from the various Democratic interest groups-if any one of them had abandoned him-he would have been toast. This is why blacks feel so betrayed by him now. They had his back at the crucial hour.

If Obama and his supporters endeavor to make a habit of charging racism whenever he has difficulty, then the American people in their great wisdom will soundly reject him. He lost in West Virginia because those people take a highly pragmatic view of things. They know the Clintons and what they stand for. Obama is still largely an unknown quantity. He's never really done anything. That's the reality he has to confront. It's easier to chalk it up to racism and I think for many Liberals it actually feels good to do it, but ultimately it is not helpful. Obama would be smart to come right and say he doesn't believe it was racism. He should say that the people of West Virginia are good people, etc. etc. That's the road to victory for him. Not the quagmire of race. He needs to be post-racial. If his Liberal supporters are determined to indulge in that sort of thing, he's sunk. He needs to convince the American people that he believes in his heart that they are not racist. That will get him the votes he needs to win.[/QUOTE]

Couple of things Chip: one, I lived in West Virginia for five years and I have never experienced racism like that in my life. That doesn't mean everyone there is racist, or even most people, but it exists far more than you are allowing, as both polls and anecdotal evidence suggest. You can continue to blame "liberals" for manufacturing this issue or you can deal with a particularly ugly side of America which is being exposed by this election. I mean, maybe people in West Virginia are just more pragmatic than the rest of the country, or maybe not.

Second, I'm not sure you have paid attention to Obama's response to this issue. He has done exactly what you suggest, refusing to even engage the notion that race might play a factor in his electability, in spite of overwhelming evidence that it is and will continue to. If there is a criticism to be made of Obama it is that his unity message glosses over some important issues, but I don't know how anyone can even hint that him or his campaign are being divisive.

Clinton retired with one of the highest approval ratings in modern presidential history. This broad support is why he wasn't removed from office. If there is an all powerful group of liberal boogeyman special interest groups who control Washington I would like to know where they were during the buildup to the Iraq war or during the global warming debate or the Alito confirmation hearings. Oh that's right, they were being completely ignored.

Re: Should Hillary Hang It Up?
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;448532]I think we all agree that racism, in whatever form, should cease. The question here is whether it is racist to vote for a presidential candidate in part or whole because that candidate is black.

If your answer is yes, why? I assume your response is that any decision which is affected by someone's race is inherently a racist one. [/quote]

yes.

[quote]If that is the case, does that mean President Nixon was a racist because his administration aggressively pushed affirmative action?[/quote]

I don't see how that is racist, that is pushing for equality, which back then, was a major issue.

[quote]Or how about people who choose not to date people from a similar ethnic background?[/quote]

I guess that depends. If it's because they feel a certain race has certain characteristics and assume all are the same, then yes, that is racist. Kinda like saying "I don't like people that are good at Math, therefore I don't like Chinese people". That's racist.

[quote]Does that mean that people who won't adopt kids from outside their race are racist? [/quote]

That's a good question. I guess it depends on why they are actually making that decision.

[quote]I think it's sometimes difficult to discern what is really racist.[/QUOTE]

I just think it's more about the mindset / intent.

Re: Should Hillary Hang It Up?
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;448561]I don't know whether racism played a big part in the WV race. Yes, I have seen polls indicating that many WV residents would never vote for an African American. But, WV residents are, on the whole, poor and uneducated ... that's the very same demographic that Hillary has been targeting throughout her campaign.[/quote]


One the whole...

... Lot's of groups are this and that but if you say it you often get into trouble. Also, Preparation H does feel good...

..on the whole.