re: Update: Wizards Keep Jamison, Arenas
 

being a sixer fan, hopefully i can be alittle more objective. Arenas is top 5 talent. the wizards keep making the mistake of trying to make him a point guard. they signed Jamison in order to show Arenas they are trying to win. i think they should of let him walk. for he couldn't cover me or you, on his best day. i laugh at the comparison between Pierce and Arenas, for they are very similar

re: Update: Wizards Keep Jamison, Arenas
 

After watching the Celtics win it all, FG % is a joke. You should care how well a player plays defense that is what won it for Boston.

re: Update: Wizards Keep Jamison, Arenas
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;454871]What would you do?[/QUOTE]

Since GS offered their max for Gilbert (and if they really really want him back), I'd wait till Gilbert signs our max and then offer a S&T for Ellis and Biedrins. I wouldn't do it if I were the Warriors, but hey... no telling how much they want 0 back.

Even before it got this far, my thinking was to scrap it all before it happened. I don't think even a healthy big 3 gets us past the first round in any playoff (even though they're good enough to pull of W's against any team in the regular season).

About a month ago, I proposed a bunch of different scenarios before the draft happened (on a hoops board) that would have netted us the two things I'd rather see the organization have- a pass first, defensive-oriented PG and a low-post, defensive banger to man the 4 spot.

That would have meant letting AJ walk for nothing and making a run at EB post draft (either S&T with the Clips or offering a long-term deal to make his decision to opt out a bit easier... I didn't think he'd opt out this easily and it's a good bet he was in contact with Baron before doing so). How about offering the #18 pick and filler (OPEC?) to Memphis for Lowry? They've got a glut at point, with Conley, Critt, Stoudemire and now Mayo (who may switch between both guard positions as it calls for). Lowry's probably worth more than the 18 on its own, but with the number of teams needing PGs drafting ahead of us and the number of quality PGs in the draft, I don't think they would have had a better deal than ours. While not as good defensively, I also believe Udrih and Calderon are much better fits for an offense like ours (and would have cost much less, thereby giving us the space to grab a big man elsewhere).

With the money you aren't blowing on AJ and Gilbert, the team has flexibility for the future. With these two contracts, I think we're pretty much saddled with this team for the foreseeable future. I'm glad the big 3 have put the Wiz in the playoffs three consecutive seasons, but the East is getting better. Youth, talent and athleticism are permeating through upside teams like the Hawks, Sixers, Bulls, Heat and Magic. I'm not even including the perennial teams, such as the C's and Pistons next season. The Raps now have Bosh and O'Neal in the post (with Calderon probably resigning here, they've got a pretty sick squad). The Bucks have a pretty solid Big 3 of their own now, with Jefferson. Long-term, New Jersey is the team to watch out for in the East. Grabbing YJL and shedding Jefferson's contract is genius... With that excellent draft they just had, plus Devin running point and LeBron moving in within a few years, how can we expect to keep up?

re: Update: Wizards Keep Jamison, Arenas
 

Another context is to look at what the Clippers just paid to what we did. Rumors are floating that Brand may be looking to take less (around 13.5 per) to get a long-term deal to stay in LA, now that Baron is here. They're paying EB and BD about 26.5 million per year, combined. If Gilbert signs the sheet, the Wiz are now on the hook for 33.5 million per year. Personally, I'd rather have the former plus the extra 7 in cap space than Gilbert and AJ. You've shored up your post defense with Brand, added a pretty solid replacement at point and you have a nice MLE to play with every season.

This doesn't mean the Wizards could have pulled this off... but it's just a comparison to see what we're offering our own to stay vs. how the team can improve now (and in the future).

Of course, this theory is all blown to hell if EB jumps to Philly for a grip.

re: Update: Wizards Keep Jamison, Arenas
 

[QUOTE=itvnetop;454981]Since GS offered their max for Gilbert (and if they really really want him back), I'd wait till Gilbert signs our max and then offer a S&T for Ellis and Biedrins. I wouldn't do it if I were the Warriors, but hey... no telling how much they want 0 back.

Even before it got this far, my thinking was to scrap it all before it happened. I don't think even a healthy big 3 gets us past the first round in any playoff (even though they're good enough to pull of W's against any team in the regular season).

About a month ago, I proposed a bunch of different scenarios before the draft happened (on a hoops board) that would have netted us the two things I'd rather see the organization have- a pass first, defensive-oriented PG and a low-post, defensive banger to man the 4 spot.

That would have meant letting AJ walk for nothing and making a run at EB post draft (either S&T with the Clips or offering a long-term deal to make his decision to opt out a bit easier... I didn't think he'd opt out this easily and it's a good bet he was in contact with Baron before doing so). How about offering the #18 pick and filler (OPEC?) to Memphis for Lowry? They've got a glut at point, with Conley, Critt, Stoudemire and now Mayo (who may switch between both guard positions as it calls for). Lowry's probably worth more than the 18 on its own, but with the number of teams needing PGs drafting ahead of us and the number of quality PGs in the draft, I don't think they would have had a better deal than ours. While not as good defensively, I also believe Udrih and Calderon are much better fits for an offense like ours (and would have cost much less, thereby giving us the space to grab a big man elsewhere).

With the money you aren't blowing on AJ and Gilbert, the team has flexibility for the future. With these two contracts, I think we're pretty much saddled with this team for the foreseeable future. I'm glad the big 3 have put the Wiz in the playoffs three consecutive seasons, but the East is getting better. Youth, talent and athleticism are permeating through upside teams like the Hawks, Sixers, Bulls, Heat and Magic. I'm not even including the perennial teams, such as the C's and Pistons next season. The Raps now have Bosh and O'Neal in the post (with Calderon probably resigning here, they've got a pretty sick squad). The Bucks have a pretty solid Big 3 of their own now, with Jefferson. Long-term, New Jersey is the team to watch out for in the East. Grabbing YJL and shedding Jefferson's contract is genius... With that excellent draft they just had, plus Devin running point and LeBron moving in within a few years, how can we expect to keep up?[/QUOTE]

Good points. This could end up looking great for the Wizards and Arenas. With the Wizards showing their not "cheap" by offering the max and Arenas showing he's not greedy by "settling" for less and then freeing them up to make some other moves. Posey maybe? Or it could totally blow up in their face.

Either way. The Wizards biggest problem is that how they're building the team around the big 3. First and foremost has been their apparent refusal to get a point guard. A true point guard than can lead the offense. They should have kept Steve Blake in my opinion. But even still, I don't know that I'll ever understand taking Pecherov when guys like Rondo, Rodriguez, Williams, and Lowry were still there.

I'm biased but I think they should give Arroyo a look.

Let me ask you this, do you take an "Eramus James" on Shaun Livingston?

re: Update: Wizards Keep Jamison, Arenas
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;455003]Good points. This could end up looking great for the Wizards and Arenas. With the Wizards showing their not "cheap" by offering the max and Arenas showing he's not greedy by "settling" for less and then freeing them up to make some other moves. Posey maybe? Or it could totally blow up in their face.

Either way. The Wizards biggest problem is that how they're building the team around the big 3. First and foremost has been their apparent refusal to get a point guard. A true point guard than can lead the offense. They should have kept Steve Blake in my opinion. But even still, I don't know that I'll ever understand taking Pecherov when guys like Rondo, Rodriguez, Williams, and Lowry were still there.

I'm biased but I think they should give Arroyo a look.

Let me ask you this, do you take an "Eramus James" on Shaun Livingston?[/QUOTE]

I can only hope your first paragraph comes true. Knowing the quirkiness of Gil, they probably offered him the max hoping it was just a sign of gratitude that he would kindly reject. Seeing these vets take less to win a ring seems to rub off on some of the opting out lately and we can only hope Gil sees the same thing.

I totally agree with you re: Blake. He was solid for Portland last season- excellent A:TO ratio and that's all you can really ask for in a PG. Arroyo ain't a bad option. The names you listed that we passed on for OPEC make me wince.

I loved Livingston out of high school- thought he'd change the game at his position. If we're offering Erasmus James money, I'd take a flyer... but that last knee injury looked career-ending.

re: Update: Wizards Keep Jamison, Arenas
 

I don't think the Wiz had much choice with Gil. He's one of the more popular athletes in the area and sells tickets. If they don't max him they look cheap and ungrateful. I like Gil a lot as a player but in the end I don't think the big 3 gets this team anywhere really. Thy have no defense. None. And it kills them every night. Missing out on Thibedeaux(sp?) may have been the biggest blunder they have had. Do Jordan and Grunfeld really not get along that much to make him quit after like 2 days and go to Boston and teach them how to win with D?

re: Update: Wizards Keep Jamison, Arenas
 

[QUOTE=FRPLG;455013] Missing out on Thibedeaux(sp?) may have been the biggest blunder they have had. Do Jordan and Grunfeld really not get along that much to make him quit after like 2 days and go to Boston and teach them how to win with D?[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure what really happened there... I think there may have been some awkwardness when Thibs came in while the rest of EJ's staff hadn't been extended beyond the season. After the finals, I can see what Grunfeld saw- he's probably going to be a really successful head coach soon.

re: Update: Wizards Keep Jamison, Arenas
 

I think Gil will be staying.

The other team looking at him was the Warriors. They lost Baron Davis to the Clippers but are close to signing and paying out the wazoo for Elton Brand. They can't get Brand AND Arenas.

The Bullets will be keeping him. I'm glad because he's my favorite NBA player and I couldn't stomach seeing him on another team.

re: Update: Wizards Keep Jamison, Arenas
 

[quote=SmootSmack;455003]Good points. This could end up looking great for the Wizards and Arenas. With the Wizards showing their not "cheap" by offering the max and Arenas showing he's not greedy by "settling" for less and then freeing them up to make some other moves. Posey maybe? Or it could totally blow up in their face.

Either way. The Wizards biggest problem is that how they're building the team around the big 3. First and foremost has been their apparent refusal to get a point guard. A true point guard than can lead the offense. They should have kept Steve Blake in my opinion. But even still, I don't know that I'll ever understand taking Pecherov when guys like Rondo, Rodriguez, Williams, and Lowry were still there.

I'm biased but I think they should give Arroyo a look.

Let me ask you this, do you take an "Eramus James" on Shaun Livingston?[/quote]

Blake would be good here but they should've kept Larry Hughes. True, his career has gone down the toilet since he left, but when he was in Washington, he and Gilbert were a GREAT combo.

I'm glad the team let Cleveland overpay for him though, or Caron may not be on the team (financially it would be tough to have the "Big 4").

re: Update: Wizards Keep Jamison, Arenas
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;454783] The wizards are VERY athletic, and quite frankly, fun to watch, but they need a key player that can hit 50% of his shots.
[/QUOTE]

Oh really, like the Celts?

Career FG%

Garnett: .494
Pierce: .464
Allen: .446

Last season:
Garnett: .539 (which is pretty ridiculous)
Pierce: .464
Allen: .445

Now, I see your point, but based on your assumptions that a player's career FG% suggests what he will do going forward, the Celts probably shouldn't have bothered acquiring both Allen and Garnett because they should have expected to have all of their guys below .500 FG% and, by your logic, not have won an NBA title.

re: Update: Wizards Keep Jamison, Arenas
 

[quote=jdlea;455053]Oh really, like the Celts?

Career FG%

Garnett: .494
Pierce: .464
Allen: .446

Last season:
Garnett: .539 (which is pretty ridiculous)
Pierce: .464
Allen: .445

Now, I see your point, but based on your assumptions that a player's career FG% suggests what he will do going forward, the Celts probably shouldn't have bothered acquiring both Allen and Garnett because they should have expected to have all of their guys below .500 FG% and, by your logic, not have won an NBA title.[/quote]

well, the problem is FG% varies widely between 3 point shooters and guys hiding under the basket. i mean, shaq is a .581 shooter, but he couldn't make a 3 to save his life, and often gets laughed at for his career .524% on free throws.

gil has a lower fg%, but i don't see how anyone could possibly call him a worse shooter when he can go 3/10 from his own backcourt.

that argument is bogus and dead in my eyes. i'll need to see something that's a bit more logical to prove he can't shoot.

re: Update: Wizards Keep Jamison, Arenas
 

[QUOTE=That Guy;455067]well, the problem is FG% varies widely between 3 point shooters and guys hiding under the basket. i mean, shaq is a .581 shooter, but he couldn't make a 3 to save his life, and often gets laughed at for his career .524% on free throws.

gil has a lower fg%, but i don't see how anyone could possibly call him a worse shooter when he can go 3/10 from his own backcourt.

that argument is bogus and dead in my eyes. i'll need to see something that's a bit more logical to prove he can't shoot.[/QUOTE]

I recognize this and, to your point, there's no way that KG is a better shooter than either Pierce or Allen (which demonstrates the ridiculousness of attempting to use FG% to evaluate a player), but I was merely trying to show him that, based on his own argument, one could make the case that the Celts made a bad move by grabbing 2 guys with a FG% below .500. I'm not saying that is a logical point, obviously if you can add Allen and Garnett to Pierce, you pull the trigger, but based on his logic, that wouldn't have happened. I was trying illustrate, with my post, that the use of FG% is ridiculous.

It's like trying to use RBI to evaluate a baseball player...it makes absolutely no sense. OPS or OPS+ are far better, people need to start embracing metrics.

re: Update: Wizards Keep Jamison, Arenas
 

[QUOTE=itvnetop;455007]I can only hope your first paragraph comes true. Knowing the quirkiness of Gil, they probably offered him the max hoping it was just a sign of gratitude that he would kindly reject. Seeing these vets take less to win a ring seems to rub off on some of the opting out lately and we can only hope Gil sees the same thing.

I totally agree with you re: Blake. He was solid for Portland last season- excellent A:TO ratio and that's all you can really ask for in a PG. Arroyo ain't a bad option. The names you listed that we passed on for OPEC make me wince.

I loved Livingston out of high school- thought he'd change the game at his position. If we're offering Erasmus James money, I'd take a flyer... but that last knee injury looked career-ending.[/QUOTE]

I like that Jonathan Wallace has been invited to summer league play...but he may not be quick enough to play in the NBA.

re: Update: Wizards Keep Jamison, Arenas
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;455116]I like that Jonathan Wallace has been invited to summer league play...but he may not be quick enough to play in the NBA.[/QUOTE]

The guy was the epitome of a heady player at point... I thought he was going to G-town law? I guess it's a good backup plan if things don't work out in summer league.

Well, it looks like Gil is signing for 16 million less. He did concede a bit, but I would have liked to have seen it around 105 total. I know the salary structures are different for the two players, but his contract is worth more per year than Chris Paul's new extension.

re: Update: Wizards Keep Jamison, Arenas
 

Actually, I take it back... I can't really hate on how much he settled for. Most players would have taken the entire thing- 16 is definitely nothing to sneeze at.

Hopefully, we'll be able to unload our two expirings next off-season for some immediate help.

re: Update: Wizards Keep Jamison, Arenas
 

OK I am in the tank for Arenas as a guy and think he is a great player so I guess I am biased but when was the last time a player got offered a max deal and turned it down to take less so the team could bring in some other guys? That is awesome. I hope his defense wasn't in that last 15 mil though.

re: Update: Wizards Keep Jamison, Arenas
 

[QUOTE=itvnetop;455128]The guy was the epitome of a heady player at point... I thought he was going to G-town law? I guess it's a good backup plan if things don't work out in summer league.

Well, it looks like Gil is signing for 16 million less. He did concede a bit, but I would have liked to have seen it around 105 total. I know the salary structures are different for the two players, but his contract is worth more per year than Chris Paul's new extension.[/QUOTE]

I think he is deferring law school for a year, or at least he has the right to.

re: Update: Wizards Keep Jamison, Arenas
 

[QUOTE=itvnetop;455007]I can only hope your first paragraph comes true. Knowing the quirkiness of Gil, they probably offered him the max hoping it was just a sign of gratitude that he would kindly reject. Seeing these vets take less to win a ring seems to rub off on some of the opting out lately and we can only hope Gil sees the same thing.[/QUOTE]

Well there you go :)

Re: Update: Wizards Keep Jamison, Arenas
 

What might be interesting is going after JC Navarro. He's a restricted free agent I believe. Without Pau, why would he want to stay in Memphis?

Re: Update: Wizards Keep Jamison, Arenas
 

In my opinion Arenas doesn't deserve to get paid what he is getting. He is to injury prone. He hasn't completed a season the last 2 years. When healthy Arenas is explosive but not a top 5 player. I hope the Wizards know what they are doing with their money because I got a feeling it might turn around and bite them in da a$$. It is only my opinion peeps.....so peace out!

Re: Update: Wizards Keep Jamison, Arenas
 

[quote=itvnetop;455128]The guy was the epitome of a heady player at point... I thought he was going to G-town law? I guess it's a good backup plan if things don't work out in summer league.

[B]Well, it looks like Gil is signing for 16 million less. He did concede a bit[/B], but I would have liked to have seen it around 105 total. I know the salary structures are different for the two players, but his contract is worth more per year than Chris Paul's new extension.[/quote]

How generous of him. ;)

Re: Update: Wizards Keep Jamison, Arenas
 

[quote=FRPLG;455130]OK I am in the tank for Arenas as a guy and think he is a great player so I guess I am biased but when was the last time a player got offered a max deal and turned it down to take less so the team could bring in some other guys? That is awesome. I hope his defense wasn't in that last 15 mil though.[/quote]
Well I wouldn't go outta the way to praise Arenas. Great he put down some money, but it was a PR move from both sides(organization and him). The Wiz offered a max deal, so Arenas can't complain. Arenas said he would take less if we kept Jameson, and we did so if he took the max deal it would make him look terrible. Seems to me he had no other option. Also Arenas got a way more than he deserves. IMO he is a 90-100mil guy, no more.

Re: Update: Wizards Keep Jamison, Arenas
 

Arenas, Arenas. I'm just going to make this clear right now, I can't stand Gilbert. I don't like his game at all, for him its shoot first, pass second, and he plays lazy D at best. On top of that their are questions about his knee. So all in all, not a surprising move, but not a good one.

Re: Update: Wizards Keep Jamison, Arenas
 

The east is looking scary. Brand is now with the Sixers at a pretty decent contract. Magic just shored up some defense with Pietrus. I hope EG has a Posey or Barnes in mind.

Re: Update: Wizards Keep Jamison, Arenas
 

[quote=dmek25;454888]being a sixer fan...[/quote]

You should be happy now. Elton Brand and you traded away a couple of bums to Minnesota for a 2nd-round pick.

Re: Update: Wizards Keep Jamison, Arenas
 

im ecstatic! all we need now is a bona-fide shooting/ scoring guard, and look out Celtics. it seems like Billy King had no idea how to run an NBA franchise. thank god he is gone

Re: Update: Wizards Keep Jamison, Arenas
 

[quote=dmek25;455731]im ecstatic! all we need now is a bona-fide shooting/ scoring guard, and look out Celtics. it seems like Billy King had no idea how to run an NBA franchise. thank god he is gone[/quote]


Brand is not going to put the 76ers above the C's but I do think the 76ers are going to be a force for a lot longer then the Celtics. Should be a good year next year.

Re: Update: Wizards Keep Jamison, Arenas
 

[QUOTE=dmek25;455731]im ecstatic! all we need now is a bona-fide shooting/ scoring guard, and look out Celtics. it seems like Billy King had no idea how to run an NBA franchise. thank god he is gone[/QUOTE]

Most of the world knew Billy King was clueless. I don't get why it took philly so long to figure that out.

Re: Update: Wizards Keep Jamison, Arenas
 

[QUOTE=dmek25;455731]im ecstatic! all we need now is a bona-fide shooting/ scoring guard, and look out Celtics. it seems like Billy King had no idea how to run an NBA franchise. thank god he is gone[/QUOTE]

You guys don't really need the 2 guard now- Iggy can move there. Young's going to the 3 and Brand's the 4. The starting 5 is set. Philly is gonna be tough.

Re: Update: Wizards Keep Jamison, Arenas
 

Well, we just lost Roger Mason to the Spurs

[url=http://blogs.mysanantonio.com/weblogs/courtside/archives/2008/07/jeff_mcdonald_s_10.html]Jeff McDonald: Spurs strike deal with Mason | Courtside | MySA.com[/url]

Re: Update: Wizards Keep Jamison, Arenas
 

Rumor is the Cavs will sign James Posey

Wizards signed RFA Dee Brown (PG-Jazz) to a contract apparently. Could be a good backup PG. Quick and tenacious.

Re: Update: Wizards Keep Jamison, Arenas
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;455890]Well, we just lost Roger Mason to the Spurs

[url=http://blogs.mysanantonio.com/weblogs/courtside/archives/2008/07/jeff_mcdonald_s_10.html]Jeff McDonald: Spurs strike deal with Mason | Courtside | MySA.com[/url][/QUOTE]

I think this is a loss. Mason is only a "piece" guy but he's a pretty decent one. He has some scoring ability and seems rather solid in demeanor and effort. He's the type of guy good teams want.

Re: Update: Wizards Keep Jamison, Arenas
 

figured he'd get about 4mill pure.

sucks, but it was sort of expected, since the minutes just weren't there with the wizards.

Re: Update: Wizards Keep Jamison, Arenas
 

I think NY is going to take on the minutes... he'll have to step up as the main scoring option off the bench next season.

Dee Brown is interesting- I remember him playing at Illinois.

Re: Update: Wizards Keep Jamison, Arenas
 

[quote=itvnetop;455872]You guys don't really need the 2 guard now- Iggy can move there. Young's going to the 3 and Brand's the 4. The starting 5 is set. Philly is gonna be tough.[/quote]

PG - Andre Miller
SG - Wilile Green
SF - Andre Iguodala
PF - Elton Brand
C - Sam Dalambert

Bench:

Lou Williams
Reggie Evans
Thaddeus Young
Bunch of empty shorts



Pretty good starters but Philly needs some depth.

Re: Update: Wizards Keep Jamison, Arenas
 

[quote=SmootSmack;455890]Well, we just lost Roger Mason to the Spurs

[URL="http://blogs.mysanantonio.com/weblogs/courtside/archives/2008/07/jeff_mcdonald_s_10.html"]Jeff McDonald: Spurs strike deal with Mason | Courtside | MySA.com[/URL][/quote]

Poop. He was becoming a very good player.

Re: Update: Wizards Keep Jamison, Arenas
 

buster, i like your starting line up. but i think over the season that Lou Williams might be a better starter then Green

Re: Update: Wizards Keep Jamison, Arenas
 

Most sources I've been reading have Iggy moving over to the 2 (although he's not very good from beyond the arc). I'd stick Young in the starting lineup next season...