Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

[quote=dmek25;456181]no one does everything right. i was a Bill Clinton supporter, but think NAFTA is a piece of trash. the democrats have talked about all they were going to accomplish. yet, they have done little/ to nothing. i think he took what he thought was the best piece of legislation that was passable. but you are getting off topic alittle. this is a bad bill for the United States public[/quote]
I'm not getting off topic. You blamed Bush like he stood alone and your party (I'm assummng by your prior post) had to vote for this bill as well to make it law. We just differ on how we feel about this bill. Now if they could show you examples of how this has helped in the past would you still be against the bill?

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

i'm not a big fan of stealing liberties either, and we've seen poor oversight, excessive (and pointless) secretiveness (is that a word?) and it's really a shame that one day we're arbitrarily in a constant state of war and the government has the right to do whatever it wants without justification beyond "us vs them" fear mongering.

half of the "improved security" measures are completely worthless or worse. i mean, where are the watchdog groups? the checks and balances?

what i mean by worse than worthless - things like gitmo, which haven't revealed a whole lot, but has become a form of jihadist university doesn't really make us safer, and some of the "trials" were such a sham that the military officers charged with conducting them called time out... and we're not just talking one or two people.

</rant> sorry.

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

We are becoming very spoiled.

Previous generations were willing to make sacrifices in wartime to succeed. WWII rations so we could fund the operation, women going to work in factories to supply their husbands at war and to raise the families, they felt some personal ties to the war and cared enough to see it all the way to success. In the Civil War, many more sacrifices were made. During the Revolutionary War, EVERYTHING was put at risk for their nation.

Today, we all want to feel unaffected by the fight against our enemies and defense of our freedom. We oppose anything that reminds us we're at war, we focus on the negative and elect people who will even try to undermine our sons, brothers and fathers in harm's way. Before, a lot of these people would rightfully so be found guilty of treason.

Listening in on terrorists and the people communicating with them has NO EFFECT on you if you are not doing it. You are not losing any rights, but if we turn our backs on this fight, you WILL lose rights and maybe your life. Did you enjoy walking around the morning of 09/11 fearing or wondering if your city was next? Did you enjoy losing loved ones on that day (if any of you did)? That day, your freedom was stolen away. Do not selfishly oppose steps needed to make sure we kill the people who want to steal your freedom and life forever...or you'll really know what living under dear and oppression is like.

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

[QUOTE=That Guy;456114]btw, the whole "get a court order" thing is a sham, cause the courts just rubber stamped everything, so it really didn't provide any oversight or checks on power.[/QUOTE]

This is probably the most unpatriotic post I've read........EVER! We have rights dude! Noone can just kick open our doors and search our home, unless there is a warrant of some kind. Its called rights! I believe Thomas Jefferson went even further and called them "unalienable rights endowed by our creator".

Let me back up. Lets say that..............I get busted for possesion of something illegal. They tell me that they'll give me a deal if I cooperate. So, I say that guy gave it to me. In fact that guy gives this stuff to ALOT of people. You can find him at such and such a place.

Without a "court order" they kick open your door, ransack your house and come up empty.............I was full of crud the WHOLE TIME. I have a hard time believing that wouldn't piss you off! I have a even harder time believing that you wouldn't be screaming about your rights being violated!

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

[quote=dmek25;456181]no one does everything right. i was a Bill Clinton supporter, but think NAFTA is a piece of trash. the democrats have talked about all they were going to accomplish. yet, they have done little/ to nothing. i think he took what he thought was the best piece of legislation that was passable. but you are getting off topic alittle. this is a bad bill for the United States public[/quote]
You could also say that everything started heading south when they took control two years ago. Just had to add that. LOL

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

[quote=firstdown;456200]You could also say that everything started heading south when they took control two years ago. Just had to add that. LOL[/quote]
do you really believe this? it started almost 8 years ago, when Bush had control of congress. and carte blanche to do as he pleased. he definitely earned whatever is said about him. and BTW, the Dow dipped below 11,000. in case you haven't noticed

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

and buster, i think the biggest difference is that today, people just do not trust their elected officials. back then, it seemed like we as a country knew that congress, and the president, always had our best interests in mind. can we really say that now?

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

[QUOTE=Buster;456194]We are becoming very spoiled.

Previous generations were willing to make sacrifices in wartime to succeed. WWII rations so we could fund the operation, women going to work in factories to supply their husbands at war and to raise the families, they felt some personal ties to the war and cared enough to see it all the way to success. In the Civil War, many more sacrifices were made. During the Revolutionary War, EVERYTHING was put at risk for their nation.

Today, we all want to feel unaffected by the fight against our enemies and defense of our freedom. We oppose anything that reminds us we're at war, we focus on the negative and elect people who will even try to undermine our sons, brothers and fathers in harm's way. Before, a lot of these people would rightfully so be found guilty of treason.

Listening in on terrorists and the people communicating with them has NO EFFECT on you if you are not doing it. You are not losing any rights, but if we turn our backs on this fight, you WILL lose rights and maybe your life. Did you enjoy walking around the morning of 09/11 fearing or wondering if your city was next? Did you enjoy losing loved ones on that day (if any of you did)? [B]That day, your freedom was stolen away. [/B] Do not selfishly oppose steps needed to make sure we kill the people who want to steal your freedom and life forever...or you'll really know what living under dear and oppression is like.[/QUOTE]

Our freedom wasn't taken away that day! I remember that day pretty well AND the days after! So well that I remember "OUR FLAG WAS STILL THERE". There was one on top of the rubble in New York and another one draped over the side of the pentagon................Our flag was still there. So was our country! And therefore our freedom was too! Saying anything different is being stupid.

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

[quote=dmek25;456202]do you really believe this? it started almost 8 years ago, when Bush had control of congress. and carte blanche to do as he pleased. he definitely earned whatever is said about him. and BTW, the Dow dipped below 11,000. in case you haven't noticed[/quote]

The Dow was way up just a few years ago, uneployment was way down, gas was still not too high, housing market was booming and it all seemed to start dropping a few years back when the dems won control.

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

[quote=firstdown;456211]The Dow was way up just a few years ago, uneployment was way down, gas was still not too high, housing market was booming and it all seemed to start dropping a few years back when the dems won control.[/quote]

:doh:

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

[quote=Miller101;456209]Our freedom wasn't taken away that day! I remember that day pretty well AND the days after! So well that I remember "OUR FLAG WAS STILL THERE". There was one on top of the rubble in New York and another one draped over the side of the pentagon................Our flag was still there. So was our country! And therefore our freedom was too! Saying anything different is being stupid.[/quote]
I think he was saying that in terms of freely walking around not having check points and things like that. Just go to a Skins game now days and they are not surching people trying to sneek in a beer or two but looking for bombs. So yes in a way we did loose some of our freedoms.

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

[quote=firstdown;456211]The Dow was way up just a few years ago, uneployment was way down, gas was still not too high, housing market was booming and it all seemed to start dropping a few years back when the dems won control.[/quote]
way up a couple of years ago? maybe right after Clintron left office. this administration will set a record with the number of jobs lost under W's watch

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

[QUOTE=Buster;456194]We are becoming very spoiled.

Previous generations were willing to make sacrifices in wartime to succeed. WWII rations so we could fund the operation, women going to work in factories to supply their husbands at war and to raise the families, they felt some personal ties to the war and cared enough to see it all the way to success. In the Civil War, many more sacrifices were made. During the Revolutionary War, EVERYTHING was put at risk for their nation.[/quote]

Making sacrifices is fine -- as long as it's not freedom that is being sacrificed. Working at factories, and helping the war effort is different from giving up liberties.

You mention the Revolutionary War as an example of sacrifice. Those sacrifices were made to obtain the liberties this country was founded on. Why squander those liberties, simply because of a perceived threat?

[QUOTE=Buster;456194]Today, we all want to feel unaffected by the fight against our enemies and defense of our freedom. We oppose anything that reminds us we're at war, we focus on the negative and elect people who will even try to undermine our sons, brothers and fathers in harm's way. Before, a lot of these people would rightfully so be found guilty of treason.[/quote]

Questioning the government (and opposing, when appropriate) is not treason -- it's patriotism.

[QUOTE=Buster;456194]Listening in on terrorists and the people communicating with them has NO EFFECT on you if you are not doing it.[/quote]

Not true. It sets a precedent. To think this law has "no effect" on the average citizen's liberties is naive.

[QUOTE=Buster;456194]You are not losing any rights, but if we turn our backs on this fight, you WILL lose rights and maybe your life. Did you enjoy walking around the morning of 09/11 fearing or wondering if your city was next? Did you enjoy losing loved ones on that day (if any of you did)? That day, your freedom was stolen away. Do not selfishly oppose steps needed to make sure we kill the people who want to steal your freedom and life forever...or you'll really know what living under dear and oppression is like.[/QUOTE]

Fear mongering at its best. Sigh.

I am not scared of terrorists. And, if I was, I certainly wouldn't let that fear dictate which liberties I am assured.

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

[quote=dmek25;456253]way up a couple of years ago? maybe right after Clintron left office. this administration will set a record with the number of jobs lost under W's watch[/quote]towards the end of the Clinton administration and early in the Bush admininstration the dot-com bubble burst wiping away over $5 trillion dollars of market value of tech companies. Supporters of the Clinton admin often like to mention the increase in the economy on his watch, but conveniently forget what happened at the end of the day.

Not saying Clinton caused the dot-com phenom, but Bush certainly didn't cause this economic downturn either.

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;456259]I am not scared of terrorists. And, if I was, I certainly wouldn't let that fear dictate which liberties I am assured.[/quote]
Thats because America is doing a good job of stopping the terrorists

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;456259]Why squander those liberties, simply because of a perceived threat? [/quote]
Do you believe the threat from fundamental Islamists is perceived and not real? They have openly declared war on the United States and their objective is to have one world under Sharia law. Are they an immediate threat to succeed? No. However the threat they pose is very real.

I do agree with you on protecting our liberties, but allowing the government to actively pursue our enemies through surveillance IMO does not infringe on our liberties, as long as there is ultimate oversight by the legislative and judicial branch, which there is.

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

[quote=dmek25;456253]way up a couple of years ago? maybe right after Clintron left office. this administration will set a record with the number of jobs lost under W's watch[/quote]
It started to drop before Clinton left office. And I don't know where your getting this record job loss crap from.

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

I actually don't have a problem with expanding governmental surveillance privileges, so long as it is debated, and disclosed to the public. The problem was always that Bush decided to make up new laws as he went along, relying on a radical interpretation of executive power that basically allowed him to do anything he wanted, under the pretense that we are at war (which we certainly aren't, at least not in the constitutional sense).

It was part and parcel of larger disregard for the rule of law.

As for Obama, he's looking like another prevaricator to me.

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

[quote=saden1;456214]:doh:[/quote]

I'll see your :doh: and raise you a double :doh: :doh:

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

[quote=Miller101;456196]This is probably the most unpatriotic post I've read........EVER! We have rights dude! Noone can just kick open our doors and search our home, unless there is a warrant of some kind. Its called rights! I believe Thomas Jefferson went even further and called them "unalienable rights endowed by our creator".

Let me back up. Lets say that..............I get busted for possesion of something illegal. They tell me that they'll give me a deal if I cooperate. So, I say that guy gave it to me. In fact that guy gives this stuff to ALOT of people. You can find him at such and such a place.

Without a "court order" they kick open your door, ransack your house and come up empty.............I was full of crud the WHOLE TIME. I have a hard time believing that wouldn't piss you off! I have a even harder time believing that you wouldn't be screaming about your rights being violated![/quote]

are you kidding me? wtf are you talking about. the fact is that the courts rubber stamp those warrant requests. it's a fact, look it up. you last paragraph just proves my point.

i think i know what our problem is now though... facts are unpatriotic.

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;456271]Do you believe the threat from fundamental Islamists is perceived and not real? They have openly declared war on the United States and their objective is to have one world under Sharia law. Are they an immediate threat to succeed? No. However the threat they pose is very real.

I do agree with you on protecting our liberties, but allowing the government to actively pursue our enemies through surveillance IMO does not infringe on our liberties, as long as there is ultimate oversight by the legislative and judicial branch, which there is.[/quote]

and parts of the middle east have hated us intensely since the 50s (formation of isreal, overthrow of iranian democracy for british oil interests). the war on terror is an endless and "fake" war. we have intelligence agencies and special operations groups, and if the "war" ended tomorrow, nothing would change... the security has been improved (though it's still not great).

al qaeda has real computer infrastructure now though, they know what crypto is, this isn't going to catch anyone with half a brain or stop those using VOIP (which is much cheaper and very easy to encrypt).

I'm just saying, you're losing privacy and gaining nothing except the ability to catch really really stupid terrorists that probably aren't going to be all that effective anyways.

this would be much better at busting drug rings than anything else.

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

btw, if there is no watchdog group to check for abuses (even after the fact) you're pretty much guaranteed to have abuses.

[url=http://berniehund.com/]BernieHund: The Political Watchdog[/url]

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

The government can listen in on me anytime they want. I hope they like being bored.

The reality is that the NSA can listen to whatever they want anytime they want and there's nothing the courts or activists or even the POTUS can do about it. This train left the station in the 1970s.

[yt]jLycjScxv8A[/yt]

[YT]xj5dL7b_aRA[/YT]

[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON"]Echelon[/URL]

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

[quote=That Guy;456316]and parts of the middle east have hated us intensely since the 50s (formation of isreal, overthrow of iranian democracy for british oil interests). the war on terror is an endless and "fake" war. [B]we have intelligence agencies and special operations groups[/B], and if the "war" ended tomorrow, nothing would change... the security has been improved (though it's still not great).
[/quote]
We definitely agree on this point. While I don't think war on terror itself is fake, we should be fighting it in a much more clandestine way. I don't like the idea of our troops basically being targets to draw out terrorists. Mass deployments are also ridiculously expensive.

When Bush 1 stopped from going all the way into Iraq in Desert Storm he was heavily criticized, it appears he had a lot more wisdom than many gave him credit for.

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;456362]We definitely agree on this point. While I don't think war on terror itself is fake, we should be fighting it in a much more clandestine way. I don't like the idea of our troops basically being targets to draw out terrorists. Mass deployments are also ridiculously expensive.

When Bush 1 stopped from going all the way into Iraq in Desert Storm he was heavily criticized, it appears he had a lot more wisdom than many gave him credit for.[/quote]

they set mission goals, they drew up the contingencies, and they followed their plan.

powell is a better man than rumsfeld and cheney combined. too bad he got played in the whole deal :/. rumsfeld's "plan as you go without intel" version of waging a war is just about the stupidest thing i've ever seen.

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

[quote=That Guy;456316]and parts of the middle east have hated us intensely since the 50s (formation of isreal, overthrow of iranian democracy for british oil interests). the war on terror is an endless and "fake" war. we have intelligence agencies and special operations groups, and if the "war" ended tomorrow, nothing would change... the security has been improved (though it's still not great).

al qaeda has real computer infrastructure now though, they know what crypto is, this isn't going to catch anyone with half a brain or stop those using VOIP (which is much cheaper and very easy to encrypt).

I'm just saying, you're losing privacy and gaining nothing except the ability to catch really really stupid terrorists that probably aren't going to be all that effective anyways.

this would be much better at busting drug rings than anything else.[/quote]
Those three guys we just rescued last week from that terrorist group was done by using wire taps so it does work and who said terrorist where smart to start with.

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

people talk about drinking the redskins kool aid. firstdown, you definitely have sipped on the Bush kool aid:(

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

[QUOTE=dmek25;456544]people talk about drinking the redskins kool aid. firstdown, you definitely have sipped on the Bush kool aid:([/QUOTE]

Sipps on it!?!?!? No way! He gulps it! :)

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

[quote=dmek25;456544]people talk about drinking the redskins kool aid. firstdown, you definitely have sipped on the Bush kool aid:([/quote]
Well I guess the guy for the AP was drinking the same stuff then.
[url=http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/C/COLOMBIA_CHOKING_THE_REBELS?SITE=INLAF&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2008-07-10-20-41-47]Journal & Courier[/url]

Known as "Alliance," it began with a satellite phone call in 2003, just weeks after the Americans' surveillance plane crashed in the southern Colombian jungle, according to U.S. and Colombian investigators and court documents.
The call came from Nancy Conde, the regional finance and supply chief for the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, or FARC, whose boyfriend would become the American hostages' jailer. She was calling confederates in Miami to see if they could supply the rebels with some satellite phones.
What Conde didn't know was that state security agents were listening.
U.S. law officers arrested the Miami contacts, who in exchange for promises of reduced sentences put Conde in touch with an FBI front company, according to a U.S. law enforcement official involved in the investigation, who spoke on condition of anonymity for security reasons.

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

calm down. im just trying to have alittle fun with you:)

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

[quote=dmek25;456582]calm down. im just trying to have alittle fun with you:)[/quote]
I was just responding to your post and then Millers101 post which made it sound like I made up the story. What I was pointing out that tracking the bad guys has produced results and may have saved these three guys life. I don't think this wire tapping was under FISA but it does prove to have its uses. It was the bad guys caling the US and they tapped their phones and made several arrest then got those guys phones with taps in them so they could trace them down. Not sure why it took five years but the end result was we got our guys back and caught a few more of the bad guys.

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

Call me cynical, but I have a VERY hard time believing that this bit of legislation is going to have any actual effect on day to day intelligence gathering activities. I tend to believe that the gov is already doing just about anything and everything in their power to listen to, observe and otherwise gain knowledge of those with ideals opposed to theirs. This legislation is merely a method of covering their ass in the event that something leaks. Maybe i'm paranoid, but I have zero faith in the gov to make a decision to stop what they're doing because they've hit an ethical wall. This is just the paperwork after the fact. Of course, that's all conjecture...

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

[QUOTE=firstdown;456604]I was just responding to your post and then Millers101 post which made it sound like I made up the story. What I was pointing out that tracking the bad guys has produced results and may have saved these three guys life. I don't think this wire tapping was under FISA but it does prove to have its uses. It was the bad guys caling the US and they tapped their phones and made several arrest then got those guys phones with taps in them so they could trace them down. Not sure why it took five years but the end result was we got our guys back and caught a few more of the bad guys.[/QUOTE]

Hey Firstdown.........just for the record I was joking around too.

And I see your point in your post, but..........it doesn't bother you? This immunity thing? They should have passed this law first! They shouldn't have just kept Congress in the dark and broken the law. And kept on breaking the law for 7 years or so. That is bullcrud! And now, noone is going to have too answer for it.......EVEN MORE BULLCRUD!

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

my point, i think, is the same point that guy was trying to make. if you don't have the proper checks and balances in place, the government will definitely misuse this power

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

[quote=Miller101;456645]Hey Firstdown.........just for the record I was joking around too.

And I see your point in your post, but..........it doesn't bother you? This immunity thing? They should have passed this law first! They shouldn't have just kept Congress in the dark and broken the law. And kept on breaking the law for 7 years or so. That is bullcrud! And now, noone is going to have too answer for it.......EVEN MORE BULLCRUD![/quote]
They had congressional hearing about this and even the Judge who testified said that the president did not break any laws. Now if you can show the evidence he broke the law then you have done more than they could do and I'm sure the Dems looked at this from all angles. Now if you feel it is breaking your rights then that is another thing but against the law it wasn't. What they just did here was to put into law the procedure the president has to follow so it is clear to all what powers he does or does not have.

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

[QUOTE=firstdown;456703]They had congressional hearing about this and even the Judge who testified said that the president did not break any laws. Now if you can show the evidence he broke the law then you have done more than they could do and I'm sure the Dems looked at this from all angles. Now if you feel it is breaking your rights then that is another thing but against the law it wasn't. What they just did here was to put into law the procedure the president has to follow so it is clear to all what powers he does or does not have.[/QUOTE]

It is not 100% clear whether the President's spying program violated the law. I have seen nothing that conclusively answers that question one way or the other. That shouldn't be terribly surprising - seeing how the precise scope of the program has been kept under lock and key. So, unless someone here is privy to "super secret" information on the program and is legal academic, I don't think anyone on this board is qualified to say whether the President violated the law in creating the program. Nevertheless, non-lawyer conservatives usually say he didn't break the law and non-lawyer liberals usually say he did and should be jailed ... all without knowing what the program entails or what law(s) it implicates.

EDIT - I should mention that I personally think some information has come out which suggests that certain laws [U]may[/U] have been violated. But, I don't know whether those reports are accurate and I haven't fully looked into the matter.

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;456711]It is not 100% clear whether the President's spying program violated the law. I have seen nothing that conclusively answers that question one way or the other. That shouldn't be terribly surprising - seeing how the precise scope of the program has been kept under lock and key. So, unless someone here is privy to "super secret" information on the program and is legal academic, I don't think anyone on this board is qualified to say whether the President violated the law in creating the program. Nevertheless, non-lawyer conservatives usually say he didn't break the law and non-lawyer liberals usually say he did and should be jailed ... all without knowing what the program entails or what law(s) it implicates.

EDIT - I should mention that I personally think some information has come out which suggests that certain laws [U]may[/U] have been violated. But, I don't know whether those reports are accurate and I haven't fully looked into the matter.[/quote]


If laws were not violated why is telecom immunity needed?

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

[quote=saden1;456717]If laws were not violated why is telecom immunity needed?[/quote]
Civil litigation against the telecoms.

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

[QUOTE=That Guy;456404]powell is a better man than rumsfeld and cheney combined. too bad he got played in the whole deal :/. rumsfeld's "plan as you go without intel" version of waging a war is just about the stupidest thing i've ever seen.[/QUOTE]

Ding ding we have a winner. I think less of Rumsfeld than almost any person on the face of this earth. Bush has done a bad job but with pretty good intentions. Cheney's methods were crap but again I think he really had "good" intentions. But that jackass Rumsfeld perpetrated his deeds in the name of his ego and vanity. I am convinced we'd all have a much better view of Bush and his administration had Powell been running the deal rather than Rumsfeld. Hell even Tenet was better prepared to wage this war.

Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed
 

[QUOTE=Slingin Sammy 33;456718]Civil litigation against the telecoms.[/QUOTE]

The litigation essentially targets companies who allegedly conspired with the government to violate certain citizens' constitutional right to privacy. If the spying was not illegal/unconstitutional in the first instance, why would the administration deem it necessary to protect those who helped carry out the spying?