Re: We need competition for Suisham
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;462121]Let's look at his numbers since there seems to be too much subjective opinion being tossed around here for my taste. He was definitely in the top 15 in most categories. Let's take a look:

Points: 13th
%: 23rd
FG attempts: 5th
FG made: 5th
20/29: 11th (10/10)
30/39: 11th (8/10)
40/49: 3rd (10/13)
50+: 12th (1/2)


Link: [URL="http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/statistics?stat=kick&league=nfl&season=2&year=2007"]ESPN - NFL Football Statistics and League Leaders - National Football League[/URL][/QUOTE]

I guess leg strength doesn't matter?

By your standards Morton Anderson is a stud. 25 of 28, (89.3%), 24 of 24 (100%) PAT's. (47 yards was his long)
Suisham 29 of 35 (82.9%), 29 of 30 PAT's (96.7%). (50 was his long)

By those numbers, Anderson is better...maybe we should have invited him into camp? (note- sarcasm)

Who here would take Anderson over Suisham???? This is a case where stats don't prove everything. Let us not forget that missed kick vs Seattle, and he just missed an easy kick in his first preseason game.

Suisham was 18 for 20 inside 39. Only 6 players had more attempts from that length.

Re: We need competition for Suisham
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;462121]

There's no baaaaah there, just numbers.[/QUOTE]

Since you editted this in, I will make a separate comment on it.

Do you recall how he hit that 50 yarder? It was WITH the wind. His other 50 yard attempt was short. Where in your numbers does it show leg strength? Cause at this point, I think we can all safely assume you could care less about leg strength. Is that true? I think several of us would have been happy with a kicker just to do kickoffs at the league min. Someone who could reach the endzone.

Side note, football reference has him down as 0 attempts from 50. I wonder how often they are wrong?

[url=http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/suishsha01.htm]Shaun Suisham Statistics - Pro-Football-Reference.com[/url]

Re: We need competition for Suisham
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;462143]Since you editted this in, I will make a separate comment on it.

Do you recall how he hit that 50 yarder? It was WITH the wind. His other 50 yard attempt was short. Where in your numbers does it show leg strength? Cause at this point, I think we can all safely assume you could care less about leg strength. Is that true? I think several of us would have been happy with a kicker just to do kickoffs at the league min. Someone who could reach the endzone.

Side note, football reference has him down as 0 attempts from 50. I wonder how often they are wrong?

[url=http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/suishsha01.htm]Shaun Suisham Statistics - Pro-Football-Reference.com[/url][/QUOTE]

So you would prefer Sebastian Janikowski, then?

Re: We need competition for Suisham
 

I think some people are forgetting what it is like to have a bad kicker. I also think some are completely ignorant to the level of skill held by a large portion of NFL kickers. There are maybe 5 kickers in the NFL who are clearly better than Suisham. The rest are essentially the same guy. All prone to good times and bad times. I have no problem with competition but it has to be real competition and no one has even sniffed at mentioning a guy who could have been brought to really provide competition. Bringing someone in just to provide some mockish competition is silly because it takes a roster spot from a position player that WE NEED to keep our 53 guys fresh and healthy. If we could have brought in say Vinatieri for competition we'd do it obviously but if the competition is someone like Nick Novak then what the hell is the point? If Suisham goes into a funk and sucks wind then we'll go find another guy off the scrap heap. But having some other stiff in camp taking up a roster spot justs seems dumb. I dont see how it helps the kicking game or our team.

Re: We need competition for Suisham
 

I know it won't help this season, but I'd love to see Vinny use a late round choice in the next draft to select [B]PK Sam Swank[/B] from Wake Forest. Swank has hit a number of 50 yard FGs in his career. I saw him live at UVA last year, and the guy puts serious height AND depth on his kickoffs.

Re: We need competition for Suisham
 

The highest rated kicker in the draft was Brandon Coutu from Georgia. He has the strong leg (kicked a 58 yarder at UGA) .... one of the strongest you'll ever see with range extending to 60+

He is currently in competition with Olindo Mare in Seattle... I'm pretty sure the Skins would bring him in to compete if the Seahawks cut him.

The 2nd rated kicker in the draft was Piotr Czech from Wagner.. He's 6'5" and has range well over 50 making a 56 yarder last season.

[SIZE=1][B]"04/29/08[/B] - Two of the greatest and most decorated football players in Wagner College history, kicker/punter Piotr Czech (Keyport, NJ/ Keyport) and cornerback/return specialist Al Phillips (Hialeah, FL/ American), have signed NFL free agent contracts with the Baltimore Ravens and the New York Jets, respectively. Czech, an American Football Coaches Association (AFCA) All-American, possessed the strongest leg of any placekicker to ever compete in the Northeast Conference during its 12-year football history. The 6-foot-5 inch Czech converted on field goal attempts of 56 and 50 yards this season. The 56-yarder, which came against Saint Francis (PA) at windy Wagner College Stadium, is the longest in league and Wagner history. With two successful tries from 54 yards out during the 2006 season, Czech now owns the three longest field goals ever converted in the NEC. His accuracy was also second to none as evidenced by his 84.2 percent (16-19) field goal success rate. Czech's strong leg was also a major weapon on kick-offs. In addition, his 40.2 yards per punt average was third-best in the league and his net average of 36.68 yards was the conference's best mark and the nation's seventh-highest average. He dropped 26 of his 64 punts inside the opponents' 20-yard line. "During the final round of the draft, I started receiving calls from various teams," said Czech. "The Ravens were the team that showed the most interest. Their special teams coach, Jerry Rosburg, called me and indicated that he was excited to have me come down and show what I can do. "They have a veteran kicker in Matt Stover who has been in the league a long time," Czech added. "So, they wanted to bring in a young guy to compete with him. I am grateful for this opportunity and I am looking forward to going down there and doing my best." - Wagner Football "[/SIZE]

Czech is trying to unseat Matt Stover in Baltimore so that is another competition to keep an eye on.
[url=http://www.examiner.com/a-1512170~Baltimore_Ravens__Realm__Piotr_Czech_works_hard_to_prove_his_mettle.html?cid=rss-Baltimore]Baltimore Ravens' Realm: Piotr Czech works hard to prove his mettle - Examiner.com[/url]

Re: We need competition for Suisham
 

[QUOTE=jdlea;462145]So you would prefer Sebastian Janikowski, then?[/QUOTE]

If we could have gotten him for league min solely to do kickoffs, then absolutely. He instantly would get us 10+ yards on every kick. But your comment proves a point...no one gave Janikowski competition in Oakland, and how did that turn out for him?

BTW- Janikowski gets a bad wrap because his FG% is always low. However, he made 6 50+ FG's last year, and had 11 attempts from 50+.
From 20-39 Suisham missed 2 FG's, Janikowski, only 1. Also, in Janikowski's 8 year career, he has missed only 11 fg's from 20-39. (that's an average of a little over 1 a year, 1.375) Any kicker should be able to hit FG's from 20-39, but the measure of a kicker is how good he is from long range. No one really wants a kicker that can't kick from 50. So to answer your question, if we brought in Janikowski to compete, then I would have been ecstatic about that. If Suisham beat him out in camp, then he deserves the job.

Re: We need competition for Suisham
 

[QUOTE=FRPLG;462149]I think some people are forgetting what it is like to have a bad kicker. I also think some are completely ignorant to the level of skill held by a large portion of NFL kickers. There are maybe 5 kickers in the NFL who are clearly better than Suisham. [b]The rest are essentially the same guy.[/b] All prone to good times and bad times. I have no problem with competition but it has to be real competition and no one has even sniffed at mentioning a guy who could have been brought to really provide competition. Bringing someone in just to provide some mockish competition is silly because it takes a roster spot from a position player that WE NEED to keep our 53 guys fresh and healthy. If we could have brought in say Vinatieri for competition we'd do it obviously but if the competition is someone like Nick Novak then what the hell is the point? If Suisham goes into a funk and sucks wind then we'll go find another guy off the scrap heap. But having some other stiff in camp taking up a roster spot justs seems dumb. I dont see how it helps the kicking game or our team.[/QUOTE]

So you're saying Suisham is a "dime a dozen" type of player...yet he has NO COMPETITION for his job. You don't see a problem with that?

Re: We need competition for Suisham
 

[QUOTE=DGreene28;462172]The highest rated kicker in the draft was Brandon Coutu from Georgia. He has the strong leg (kicked a 58 yarder at UGA) .... one of the strongest you'll ever see with range extending to 60+

He is currently in competition with Olindo Mare in Seattle... I'm pretty sure the Skins would bring him in to compete if the Seahawks cut him.

The 2nd rated kicker in the draft was Piotr Czech from Wagner.. He's 6'5" and has range well over 50 making a 56 yarder last season.

[SIZE=1][B]"04/29/08[/B] - Two of the greatest and most decorated football players in Wagner College history, kicker/punter Piotr Czech (Keyport, NJ/ Keyport) and cornerback/return specialist Al Phillips (Hialeah, FL/ American), have signed NFL free agent contracts with the Baltimore Ravens and the New York Jets, respectively. Czech, an American Football Coaches Association (AFCA) All-American, possessed the strongest leg of any placekicker to ever compete in the Northeast Conference during its 12-year football history. The 6-foot-5 inch Czech converted on field goal attempts of 56 and 50 yards this season. The 56-yarder, which came against Saint Francis (PA) at windy Wagner College Stadium, is the longest in league and Wagner history. With two successful tries from 54 yards out during the 2006 season, Czech now owns the three longest field goals ever converted in the NEC. His accuracy was also second to none as evidenced by his 84.2 percent (16-19) field goal success rate. Czech's strong leg was also a major weapon on kick-offs. In addition, his 40.2 yards per punt average was third-best in the league and his net average of 36.68 yards was the conference's best mark and the nation's seventh-highest average. He dropped 26 of his 64 punts inside the opponents' 20-yard line. "During the final round of the draft, I started receiving calls from various teams," said Czech. "The Ravens were the team that showed the most interest. Their special teams coach, Jerry Rosburg, called me and indicated that he was excited to have me come down and show what I can do. "They have a veteran kicker in Matt Stover who has been in the league a long time," Czech added. "So, they wanted to bring in a young guy to compete with him. I am grateful for this opportunity and I am looking forward to going down there and doing my best." - Wagner Football "[/SIZE]

Czech is trying to unseat Matt Stover in Baltimore so that is another competition to keep an eye on.
[url=http://www.examiner.com/a-1512170~Baltimore_Ravens__Realm__Piotr_Czech_works_hard_to_prove_his_mettle.html?cid=rss-Baltimore]Baltimore Ravens' Realm: Piotr Czech works hard to prove his mettle - Examiner.com[/url][/QUOTE]

Excellent post.

Odd that Stover (who is better than Suisham IMO and is a HOF kicker if the HOF took kickers seriously, but age is a factor) is in competition for his job but not Suisham.
I may be recalling incorrectly, but isn't there a back up kicker "competing" in the Colts camp too?

Re: We need competition for Suisham
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;462174]If we could have gotten him for league min solely to do kickoffs, then absolutely. He instantly would get us 10+ yards on every kick. But your comment proves a point...no one gave Janikowski competition in Oakland, and how did that turn out for him?

BTW- Janikowski gets a bad wrap because his FG% is always low. However, he made 6 50+ FG's last year, and had 11 attempts from 50+.
From 20-39 Suisham missed 2 FG's, Janikowski, only 1. Also, in Janikowski's 8 year career, he has missed only 11 fg's from 20-39. (that's an average of a little over 1 a year, 1.375) Any kicker should be able to hit FG's from 20-39, but the measure of a kicker is how good he is from long range. No one really wants a kicker that can't kick from 50. So to answer your question, if we brought in Janikowski to compete, then I would have been ecstatic about that. If Suisham beat him out in camp, then he deserves the job.[/QUOTE]

Suisham was more accurate inside of 50 yards last season. 81% to 85% in favor of Suisham, so Janikowski deserves his bad rap. He's a mediocre kicker with a big leg.

I think carrying 2 kickers is a waste of a roster spot. It's pretty difficult to shave down a roster and being forced to carry 2 kickers doesn't make it any easier.

The ideal thing would be to get a great kicker, sign him for forever and forget about the position, but there aren't that many out there.

Now, I'm not really saying he shouldn't have had to compete, I just disagree that because Suisham doesn't have a big leg, he shouldn't be on the team. If Brooks works at punter, they should see if he can kick kickoffs, but I don't want to see a second kicker who only kicks kickoffs and 50+ yard field goals.

Re: We need competition for Suisham
 

The interesting thing about Czech is he can be a very capable backup punter as well... He'd obviously be a big upgrade on kickoffs. I think the Skins have an eye on that competition over in MD and would be willing to bring either Stover or Czech in as soon as one is cut. It may be Stover the way Czech's kicking right now.

Re: We need competition for Suisham
 

[quote=jsarno;462175]So you're saying Suisham is a "dime a dozen" type of player...yet he has NO COMPETITION for his job. You don't see a problem with that?[/quote]Maybe Brooks can win the kick off specialist job, and then it doesn't matter whether or not Suisham has competition.

I mean, Suisham looked good on kickoffs on Sunday, but he's also incredibly inconsistent.

Re: We need competition for Suisham
 

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;462180]Maybe Brooks can win the kick off specialist job, and then it doesn't matter whether or not Suisham has competition.[/quote]

I guess time will tell on that one. We don't really have an option here...we're just "hoping".

[quote]I mean, Suisham looked good on kickoffs on Sunday, but he's also incredibly inconsistent.[/QUOTE]

It's also 80+ degrees. The football doesn't have the consistancy of a rock yet. I did see one kick that went into the back of the endzone and had to rewind it to see if that was suisham. I find it hard to beleive that he all of sudden got stronger, but you never know. Hopefully this won't be an issue all season. Hopefully he'll hit 85%+ of his kicks and is clutch all season, then we won't have to worry at all. Like I said before, hopefully Suisham proves me wrong...I'd love to see it.

Re: We need competition for Suisham
 

[quote=jsarno;462138]I guess leg strength doesn't matter?

By your standards Morton Anderson is a stud. 25 of 28, (89.3%), 24 of 24 (100%) PAT's. (47 yards was his long)
Suisham 29 of 35 (82.9%), 29 of 30 PAT's (96.7%). (50 was his long)

By those numbers, Anderson is better...maybe we should have invited him into camp? (note- sarcasm)

Who here would take Anderson over Suisham???? This is a case where stats don't prove everything. Let us not forget that missed kick vs Seattle, and he just missed an easy kick in his first preseason game.

Suisham was 18 for 20 inside 39. Only 6 players had more attempts from that length.[/quote]

So now your argument is all about leg strength?

I guess you had to move on to something since I already showed you he's in the top 15 in most kicking categories.

Leg strength is overrated. By your standard Janikowski must be the best kicker in the history of the game.

This topic is now officially retarded.

Re: We need competition for Suisham
 

[QUOTE=jdlea;462178]Suisham was more accurate inside of 50 yards last season. 81% to 85% in favor of Suisham, so Janikowski deserves his bad rap. He's a mediocre kicker with a big leg. [/quote]

I'm failing to understand this logic. 81% is not bad, and is only 4% worse than Suisham, but he is MUCH better at kickoffs, and can reach the goal posts from 50+, but that doesn't matter???? I'm not saying Janikowski is better...I'm really not...I'm just saying that competition would have been welcomed. Being mediocre with a big leg is better than being slightly better than mediocre with a wet noodle leg.

[quote]I think carrying 2 kickers is a waste of a roster spot. It's pretty difficult to shave down a roster and being forced to carry 2 kickers doesn't make it any easier.[/quote]

I can agree with that. Which is why I'd prefer someone that can do it all. This the competition comments. If we couldn't find someone, then we move on, but at least we tried.

[quote]The ideal thing would be to get a great kicker, sign him for forever and forget about the position, but there aren't that many out there.[/quote]

agreed.

[quote]Now, I'm not really saying he shouldn't have had to compete, I just disagree that because Suisham doesn't have a big leg, he shouldn't be on the team. If Brooks works at punter, they should see if he can kick kickoffs, but I don't want to see a second kicker who only kicks kickoffs and 50+ yard field goals.[/QUOTE]

I can agree with that as well.

Re: We need competition for Suisham
 

[quote=Mattyk72;462187]So now your argument is all about leg strength?

I guess you had to move on to something since I already showed you he's in the top 15 in most kicking categories.

Leg strength is overrated. By your standard Janikowski must be the best kicker in the history of the game.

This topic is now officially retarded.[/quote]


I think you're underrating leg strength. A kicker who can consistently kick the ball into the endzone makes a KO coverage team much better...

and a kicker who has range into the high 50's can make a huge difference over the course of a season... Obviously making kicks 40-49 separates the good kickers from the mediocre ones , and a kicker is supposed to make all of his FG's from 30-39.

And lastly, instead of bashing a thread/topic why not simply retire from it?

Re: We need competition for Suisham
 

[quote=DGreene28;462196]I think you're underrating leg strength. A kicker who can consistently kick the ball into the endzone makes a KO coverage team much better...

and a kicker who has range into the high 50's can make a huge difference over the course of a season... Obviously making kicks 40-49 separates the good kickers from the mediocre ones , and a kicker is supposed to make all of his FG's from 30-39.

And lastly, instead of bashing a thread/topic why not simply retire from it?[/quote]

Of course leg strength is important, but is it more important than accuracy?

Even though the thread has taken a seriously retarded turn, it's still fun to poke fun at it.

I mean c'mon... with an 80 man roster we're supposed to believe that we need to bring in some warm bodies off the street to compete for a kicking job that was solid a year ago? I don't see the logic. And I guess the Redskins agree it would be a waste of time since they haven't started up that mock competition yet. And since I don't know anything about kickers either I'm going to defer to their decision.

Re: We need competition for Suisham
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;462187]So now your argument is all about leg strength?[/quote]

My argument has, and always will be, that Suisham has not earned to not have competition for the job.

[quote]I guess you had to move on to something since I already showed you he's in the top 15 in most kicking categories.[/quote]

That's funny, cause I showed you Morten Anderson you realized that your stats mean nothing? Way to stick to your guns. If your argument about the top 15 stats means anything, then you HAVE to admit that Anderson is a better kicker, and that's not going to happen. Nice big flaw in your argument there eh? Obviously Anderson is not, but the stats prove it...ouch...quite a conundrum we have here.
You also missed the point of there were only 6 kickers that had more attempts from 20-39, meaning OF COURSE Suisham will "appear" to have better numbers. When you're closer to the goal posts, then you usually have a tendancy to hit more FG's. I would have expected you to figure that out, but when you think that Suisham is a badass, then I guess you won't look at things objectively.

[quote]Leg strength is overrated. By your standard Janikowski must be the best kicker in the history of the game.[/quote]

WOW...leg stregth is overrated?????? Might as well not do kickoffs at all then...might as well not make that a part of the game since you think it's overrated. :doh:
ps- follow along with other posts, I never once said I'd prefer Janikowski, but I did say I would welcome the competition. It wouldn't hurt.

[quote]This topic is now officially retarded.[/QUOTE]

Nope...just your weak argument.

For the record, here are the kickers I think are better or equal to Suisham in no particular order:
1- Gostkowski
2- Folk
3- Josh Brown
4- Gould
5- Crosby
6- Kris Brown
7- Scobee
8- Rackers
9- Bironas
10- Kaeding
11- Graham
12- Vinateiri
13- Hanson
14- Elam
15- Dawson
16- Lindell
17- Kasay
18- Jeff Reed
19- Nedney
20- Akers
21- Stover
22- Longwell

I'm not saying I'd take all of them over Suisham, but certainly most of them. And I certainly would have invited at least 7 others to camp to compete (had they not already had teams).

Re: We need competition for Suisham
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;462200]Of course leg strength is important, but is it more important than accuracy? [/quote]

Accuracy is certainly more important. But again, but your standards, we need to go sign Morton Anderson. You can't ignore leg strength though...it ranks #2 importance in a kicker.

[quote]I mean c'mon... with an 80 man roster we're supposed to believe that we need to bring in some warm bodies off the street to compete for a kicking job that was solid a year ago? I don't see the logic.[/quote]

Note my post about people we could have not invited, cause that is certainly what we did in other cases is just bring in warm bodies. We are gonna have to agree to disagree about "solid" from a year ago. I thought it was OK, but we could not rely on him from long distance, nor could we rely on him when it mattered most. That's important. [b]To not bring in competition means we are completely 100% satisfied with our kicking game[/b], I was not satisfied.

[quote]And I guess the Redskins agree it would be a waste of time since they haven't started up that mock competition yet. And since I don't know anything about kickers either I'm going to defer to their decision.[/QUOTE]

That's the best point you have made...however, you are assuming that the Skins have never made a poor decision. Let us not forget the plethera of poor kickers we have had over the years after Lohmiller.

Re: We need competition for Suisham
 

[quote=jsarno;462202]My argument has, and always will be, that Suisham has not earned to not have competition for the job.



That's funny, cause I showed you Morten Anderson you realized that your stats mean nothing? Way to stick to your guns. If your argument about the top 15 stats means anything, then you HAVE to admit that Anderson is a better kicker, and that's not going to happen. Nice big flaw in your argument there eh? Obviously Anderson is not, but the stats prove it...ouch...quite a conundrum we have here.
You also missed the point of there were only 6 kickers that had more attempts from 20-39, meaning OF COURSE Suisham will "appear" to have better numbers. When you're closer to the goal posts, then you usually have a tendancy to hit more FG's. I would have expected you to figure that out, but when you think that Suisham is a badass, then I guess you won't look at things objectively.



WOW...leg stregth is overrated?????? Might as well not do kickoffs at all then...might as well not make that a part of the game since you think it's overrated. :doh:
ps- follow along with other posts, I never once said I'd prefer Janikowski, but I did say I would welcome the competition. It wouldn't hurt.



Nope...just your weak argument.

For the record, here are the kickers I think are better or equal to Suisham in no particular order:
1- Gostkowski
2- Folk
3- Josh Brown
4- Gould
5- Crosby
6- Kris Brown
7- Scobee
8- Rackers
9- Bironas
10- Kaeding
11- Graham
12- Vinateiri
13- Hanson
14- Elam
15- Dawson
16- Lindell
17- Kasay
18- Jeff Reed
19- Nedney
20- Akers
21- Stover
22- Longwell

I'm not saying I'd take all of them over Suisham, but certainly most of them. And I certainly would have invited at least 7 others to camp to compete (had they not already had teams).[/quote]

Anderson [I]is[/I] a better kicker than Suisham. Big deal.

Nice subjective list there. Who cares.

Besides, I thought you didn't know anything about kickers and you were deferring to the Redskins scouts?

So if there was one out there worth looking at why is he not in camp right now?

You're saying you're not an expert on kickers... but you're positive there needs to be a competition? Huh?

Re: We need competition for Suisham
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;462187]So now your argument is all about leg strength?

I guess you had to move on to something since I already showed you he's in the top 15 in most kicking categories.

Leg strength is overrated. By your standard Janikowski must be the best kicker in the history of the game.

This topic is now officially retarded.[/QUOTE]

Why would this topic be retarded, if during our playoff loss last season our kicker missed a pretty significant field goal?

Re: We need competition for Suisham
 

[quote=jsarno;462205]Accuracy is certainly more important. But again, but your standards, we need to go sign Morton Anderson. You can't ignore leg strength though...it ranks #2 importance in a kicker.



Note my post about people we could have not invited, cause that is certainly what we did in other cases is just bring in warm bodies. We are gonna have to agree to disagree about "solid" from a year ago. I thought it was OK, but we could not rely on him from long distance, nor could we rely on him when it mattered most. That's important. [B]To not bring in competition means we are completely 100% satisfied with our kicking game[/B], I was not satisfied.



[B]That's the best point you have made...however, you are assuming that the Skins have never made a poor decision. Let us not forget the plethera of poor kickers we have had over the years after Lohmiller[/B].[/quote]

Um no, I'm not assuming that at all. But as you said we're not the experts, right?

I do remember all the kickers we've gone through which is exactly my point why we should stick with Suisham to let him continue to develop. At the end of the day I see no need to have a worthless kicking competition for a guy who was 29/35 last year, the best season we've had from a kicker since Chip left.

Re: We need competition for Suisham
 

[quote=Ruhskins;462209]Why would this topic be retarded, if during our playoff loss last season our kicker missed a pretty significant field goal?[/quote]

Plenty of things went wrong in that game. The game did not boil down to a missed FG. For starters we shouldn't have even been kicking a FG, we should have punched in a TD. But that's a different topic entirely.

Re: We need competition for Suisham
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;462208]Anderson [I]is[/I] a better kicker than Suisham. Big deal.[/quote]

Are you serious? You really believe that????

[quote]Nice subjective list there.[/quote]

Thanks.

[quote]Besides, I thought you didn't know anything about kickers and you were deferring to the Redskins scouts? [/quote]

Here is my post since you are misunderstanding my point:
[i]Seriously????? There was just a bunch of [b]college kickers[/b] not drafted across the country, and there was a bunch last year too, and the year before etc....are you seriously saying that there are no kickers out there???

Last I checked, we are not experts on kickers...nor are we scouts...but last I checked, the Redskins employs alot of scouts...ask them where we could find a few. Anyone will work. No one is saying to get a hall of famer to compete, just competition. Competition has never been a bad thing...ever.[/i]

I am very knowledgable with all NFL players. I am not knowledgable, and have said on numerous occasions that I am not knowledgable, when it comes to college players. I was asked who we could bring in, I basically said there are tons of college kids we could have brought in. I don't follow college, I follow NFL.

[quote]So if there was one out there worth looking at why is he not in camp right now?[/quote]

That's the million dollar question. Someone upstairs thought that Suisham is worthy of not having competition...just like someone upstairs thought that Spurrier was the next HOF coach, or that John Hall was our next kicker, or Eddie Murray, or Michael Husted, or Brett Conway were all good kickers.
When we win a super bowl, or even go deep in the playoffs, then the FO deserves for me, and everyone, not to second guess.

Re: We need competition for Suisham
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;462189]I'm failing to understand this logic. 81% is not bad, and is only 4% worse than Suisham, but he is MUCH better at kickoffs, and can reach the goal posts from 50+, but that doesn't matter???? I'm not saying Janikowski is better...I'm really not...I'm just saying that competition would have been welcomed. Being mediocre with a big leg is better than being slightly better than mediocre with a wet noodle leg. [/QUOTE]

We don't really disagree, but for the sake of argument, let's talk about the 4%. I don't think it's totally unreasonable to say a kicker will have 25-50 attempts per season. That's 1 or 2 more misses in a season, that's not an incredible amount, BUT what if they're big kicks? What if they're game winners? It's also the difference between being the 16/17th best kicker in the league vs. the 25th. I was trying to help Janikowski out because they trot him out for some ridiculous kicks.

Just because Janikowski can reach a 50 yarder, doesn't mean much, he only hit slightly above 50%, Suisham was 50%. I'm not saying that their leg strength is anywere near comparable, but I'm saying that a 50 yard field goal is probably 50/50 anyway. I don't think signing a guy just because he can get it there and sacrificing accuracy is worth while.

Also, the reason I removed the 50 yarders is because they were the majority of Janikowski's misses. He was 6/11 last season from 50+. I thought that would bring his 71% FG PCT up a bit, but it didn't make it that much better.

The one thing we do disagree on is that FG% isn't that big of a factor. I want the kicker to make as many FG's as possible, just because he has a big leg, doesn't mean he'll make more and I just don't see kicking into the end zone to be that important. The difference between the 20 and 25 isn't that big of a deal, it's not even that different from 20 to 30. The kick coverage and defense have to do their job. I will say, however, that there is a pretty big difference when it's the 35 or 40.

Now, I will say that having a 50 yarder be out of the question for a kicker is a little ridiculous, but I'm not a huge proponent of trotting a guy out there for a 50 yarder. First of all, the greatest kicker in Redskins history (or at least the only one who made the 70 Greatest list) is probably Mark Moseley. For his career he made 12 of 42 from 50+ yards. Last year, in the NFL, 99 FG's of 50+ yards were attempted and NFL kickers made 47 of them that's 47.4%. Therefore, you have about a 50/50 shot (unless you have Kris Brown 5-5 from 50+...ridiculous) of gaining 3 points or putting your opponent on their own 40+ yard line.

I'm almost of the opinion that a 50 yard field goal is too risky of a play, if it doesn't pay off, you're almost screwed.

Re: We need competition for Suisham
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;462211]Um no, I'm not assuming that at all. But as you said we're not the experts, right? [/quote]

You are certainly right about that. Then again, there would be no point of a redskins discussion board if we all weren't backseat qb's.

[quote]I do remember all the kickers we've gone through which is exactly my point why we should stick with Suisham to let him continue to develop. At the end of the day I see no need to have a worthless kicking competition for a guy who was 29/35 last year, the best season we've had from a kicker since Chip left.[/QUOTE]

My only problem with that comment is the "worthless kicking competition". That is assuming there is no one out there better than Suisham, which has been my point all along. If he beats the competition, more power to him...but what if we're missing out on the next David Akers. (I know you remember him on the skins, but many probably forgot we had him and let him go).

In the end, I prefer a kicker with a stronger leg...I think we NEED a kicker with a stronger leg. But if Suisham can be consistant, and clutch, I am willing to overlook that. Ultimately I have to accept to Suisham, cause like it or not, he's our guy. I just hope in his "developement" he learns to reach the endzone on kickoffs.

Re: We need competition for Suisham
 

That's probably the most research I've ever done for a post and it was a. [B]about kickers[/B] and b. about a post I pretty much agreed with...LOL

Re: We need competition for Suisham
 

[QUOTE=jdlea;462219]We don't really disagree, but for the sake of argument, let's talk about the 4%. I don't think it's totally unreasonable to say a kicker will have 25-50 attempts per season. That's 1 or 2 more misses in a season, that's not an incredible amount, BUT what if they're big kicks? What if they're game winners? It's also the difference between being the 16/17th best kicker in the league vs. the 25th. I was trying to help Janikowski out because they trot him out for some ridiculous kicks.

Just because Janikowski can reach a 50 yarder, doesn't mean much, he only hit slightly above 50%, Suisham was 50%. I'm not saying that their leg strength is anywere near comparable, but I'm saying that a 50 yard field goal is probably 50/50 anyway. I don't think signing a guy just because he can get it there and sacrificing accuracy is worth while.

Also, the reason I removed the 50 yarders is because they were the majority of Janikowski's misses. He was 6/11 last season from 50+. I thought that would bring his 71% FG PCT up a bit, but it didn't make it that much better.

[b]The one thing we do disagree on is that FG% isn't that big of a factor.[/b] I want the kicker to make as many FG's as possible, just because he has a big leg, doesn't mean he'll make more and I just don't see kicking into the end zone to be that important. The difference between the 20 and 25 isn't that big of a deal, it's not even that different from 20 to 30. The kick coverage and defense have to do their job. I will say, however, that there is a pretty big difference when it's the 35 or 40.

Now, I will say that having a 50 yarder be out of the question for a kicker is a little ridiculous, but I'm not a huge proponent of trotting a guy out there for a 50 yarder. First of all, the greatest kicker in Redskins history (or at least the only one who made the 70 Greatest list) is probably Mark Moseley. For his career he made 12 of 42 from 50+ yards. Last year, in the NFL, 99 FG's of 50+ yards were attempted and NFL kickers made 47 of them that's 47.4%. Therefore, you have about a 50/50 shot (unless you have Kris Brown 5-5 from 50+...ridiculous) of gaining 3 points or putting your opponent on their own 40+ yard line.

I'm almost of the opinion that a 50 yard field goal is too risky of a play, if it doesn't pay off, you're almost screwed.[/QUOTE]

I do not think FG% is not a big deal. I do think it is.
We agree on most everything here, and you make valid points. What I will disagree with is the kickoffs. We will kickoff approx 4-6 times a game. If someone is 10 yards shorter than another, that is giving up 40-60 yards per game. I think those yards are important.

All in all, I feel like we agree on most cases.

Re: We need competition for Suisham
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;462224]I do not think FG% is not a big deal. I do think it is.
We agree on most everything here, and you make valid points. What I will disagree with is the kickoffs. We will kickoff approx 4-6 times a game. If someone is 10 yards shorter than another, that is giving up 40-60 yards per game. I think those yards are important.

All in all, I feel like we agree on most cases.[/QUOTE]

I think we each just put less value on both sides than the other does. I could care less if kicks are coming down at the 10 or the back of the end zone and you're willing to sacrifice accuracy for deeper kickoffs. That just is what is.

Btw, can we get some f*ckin totals on the bottom of NFL.com stat pages? I had to add every attempt and make with the num pad and calculator...weak sauce!

Re: We need competition for Suisham
 

[quote=jdlea;462219]We don't really disagree, but for the sake of argument, let's talk about the 4%. I don't think it's totally unreasonable to say a kicker will have 25-50 attempts per season. That's 1 or 2 more misses in a season, that's not an incredible amount, BUT what if they're big kicks? What if they're game winners? It's also the difference between being the 16/17th best kicker in the league vs. the 25th. I was trying to help Janikowski out because they trot him out for some ridiculous kicks.

Just because Janikowski can reach a 50 yarder, doesn't mean much, he only hit slightly above 50%, Suisham was 50%. I'm not saying that their leg strength is anywere near comparable, but I'm saying that a 50 yard field goal is probably 50/50 anyway. I don't think signing a guy just because he can get it there and sacrificing accuracy is worth while.

Also, the reason I removed the 50 yarders is because they were the majority of Janikowski's misses. He was 6/11 last season from 50+. I thought that would bring his 71% FG PCT up a bit, but it didn't make it that much better.

The one thing we do disagree on is that FG% isn't that big of a factor. I want the kicker to make as many FG's as possible, just because he has a big leg, doesn't mean he'll make more and I just don't see kicking into the end zone to be that important. The difference between the 20 and 25 isn't that big of a deal, it's not even that different from 20 to 30. The kick coverage and defense have to do their job. I will say, however, that there is a pretty big difference when it's the 35 or 40.

Now, I will say that having a 50 yarder be out of the question for a kicker is a little ridiculous, but I'm not a huge proponent of trotting a guy out there for a 50 yarder. First of all, the greatest kicker in Redskins history (or at least the only one who made the 70 Greatest list) is probably Mark Moseley. For his career he made 12 of 42 from 50+ yards. Last year, in the NFL, 99 FG's of 50+ yards were attempted and NFL kickers made 47 of them that's 47.4%. Therefore, you have about a 50/50 shot (unless you have Kris Brown 5-5 from 50+...ridiculous) of gaining 3 points or putting your opponent on their own 40+ yard line.

I'm almost of the opinion that a 50 yard field goal is too risky of a play, if it doesn't pay off, you're almost screwed.[/quote]

Good post and nice research.

Re: We need competition for Suisham
 

Jay Feely might become available. Would you like to see him here jsarno?

Re: We need competition for Suisham
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;462235]Jay Feely might become available. Would you like to see him here jsarno?[/QUOTE]

No.

It's too late now. Had this happened day 1, then yes. He had a .913% FG% last year, and .852% in 06 when he was with the Giants and the swirling winds there. He has better leg power, but I am not certain his accuracy is better since he wasn't very accurate with Atlanta in a dome. Maybe he "has it" now, but it could just be a coincidence.
If I had to choose between the two, I'd take Suisham. (note Feely was not on my list of kickers)

Re: We need competition for Suisham
 

[quote=jdlea;462219]We don't really disagree, but for the sake of argument, let's talk about the 4%. I don't think it's totally unreasonable to say a kicker will have 25-50 attempts per season. That's 1 or 2 more misses in a season, that's not an incredible amount, BUT what if they're big kicks? What if they're game winners? It's also the difference between being the 16/17th best kicker in the league vs. the 25th. I was trying to help Janikowski out because they trot him out for some ridiculous kicks.

Just because Janikowski can reach a 50 yarder, doesn't mean much, he only hit slightly above 50%, Suisham was 50%. I'm not saying that their leg strength is anywere near comparable, but I'm saying that a 50 yard field goal is probably 50/50 anyway. I don't think signing a guy just because he can get it there and sacrificing accuracy is worth while.

Also, the reason I removed the 50 yarders is because they were the majority of Janikowski's misses. He was 6/11 last season from 50+. I thought that would bring his 71% FG PCT up a bit, but it didn't make it that much better.

The one thing we do disagree on is that FG% isn't that big of a factor. I want the kicker to make as many FG's as possible, just because he has a big leg, doesn't mean he'll make more and I just don't see kicking into the end zone to be that important. The difference between the 20 and 25 isn't that big of a deal, it's not even that different from 20 to 30. The kick coverage and defense have to do their job. I will say, however, that there is a pretty big difference when it's the 35 or 40.

Now, I will say that having a 50 yarder be out of the question for a kicker is a little ridiculous, but I'm not a huge proponent of trotting a guy out there for a 50 yarder. First of all, the greatest kicker in Redskins history (or at least the only one who made the 70 Greatest list) is probably Mark Moseley. For his career he made 12 of 42 from 50+ yards. Last year, in the NFL, 99 FG's of 50+ yards were attempted and NFL kickers made 47 of them that's 47.4%. Therefore, you have about a 50/50 shot (unless you have Kris Brown 5-5 from 50+...ridiculous) of gaining 3 points or putting your opponent on their own 40+ yard line.

[B]I'm almost of the opinion that a 50 yard field goal is too risky of a play, if it doesn't pay off, you're almost screwed[/B].[/quote]

I agree with you here for sure. But at the end of a half/game its nice to have the driver in the bag and break out the big dog. I feel with Suishham all we have is a 6 iron. I like Suisham though, he just missed a big one in the playoffs vs Seattle and it seemed to kill us momentum wise...

Re: We need competition for Suisham
 

[quote=jsarno;461920]Seriously????? There was just a bunch of college kickers not drafted across the country, and there was a bunch last year too, and the year before etc....are you seriously saying that there are no kickers out there???

Last I checked, we are not experts on kickers...nor are we scouts...but last I checked, the Redskins employs alot of scouts...ask them where we could find a few. Anyone will work. No one is saying to get a hall of famer to compete, just competition. Competition has never been a bad thing...ever.[/quote]jsarno is right. There may not be a lot of name guys out there (and why not bring in Vanderjagt?) but, competition is good at [B]every[/B] position!

Re: We need competition for Suisham
 

My 2 cents.

IMO Suisham is average at best.

Field Goal %: He was tied for 23 last year. Even missed an extra point which while not a big deal there was 20+ kickers last year that didn't.

I also don't like the fact that anything over 45+ yards is iffy and we wouldn't want to try anything 50+ yards unless we were forced to. There are always a couple of games that come down to that last drive and knowing your kicker can't hit from long range makes it that much tougher to try and get that extra 10 yards with time running out.

Leg Strength: Suisham is definitely lacking here. We were in the bottom of the league on TBs and the other teams starting field position. Starting at the 20 and starting at the 35 does make a big difference to your defense. Or even better being able to pin them inside the 20 which we never had to worry about.

I also think they could easily free up a spot for competition if they wanted to, but they obviously don't want to at this time anyway.

Re: We need competition for Suisham
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;462245]No.

It's too late now. Had this happened day 1, then yes. He had a .913% FG% last year, and .852% in 06 when he was with the Giants and the swirling winds there. He has better leg power, but I am not certain his accuracy is better since he wasn't very accurate with Atlanta in a dome. Maybe he "has it" now, but it could just be a coincidence.
If I had to choose between the two, I'd take Suisham. (note Feely was not on my list of kickers)[/QUOTE]

I don't get it? You wanted competition but you wouldn't have brought in Feeley? A proven kicker in this league. Basically you wanted us to somehow get one of your chosen kickers you listed to compete or a total rookie who might be awful.

The problem is, and you have ignored this argument basically, is that taking up a spot FOR A KICKER simply to have a competition is silly. It takes a valuable roster spot that we need desperately away for no good reason. Either Suisham does good or he doesn't. If not we go sign someone else. What the heck does competition do for a kicker really anyways? Either the guy can kick or he can't. They don't kick against each other. It is an individual endeavor.

Re: We need competition for Suisham
 

[QUOTE=FRPLG;462286]I don't get it? You wanted competition but you wouldn't have brought in Feeley? A proven kicker in this league. Basically you wanted us to somehow get one of your chosen kickers you listed to compete or a total rookie who might be awful.[/quote]

You don't get it, cause you didn't read what I said...here it is again:
[quote]It's too late now. Had this happened day 1, [b]then yes.[/b][/quote]

That is saying that YES I would have welcomed Feely from day one. I have said in other posts that I would have welcomed a college kicker. What I am saying is that right now, at this moment in time, 2:48MST on August 6th, no, bringing in Feely to compete is not wise. Is that specific enough for you?
You post makes no sense. Please go back and read the other posts cause you seem like you're jumping into a conversation not knowing what you're talking about especially when my last post JUST SAID that I would have welcomed Feely.
:doh:

[quote]The problem is, and you have ignored this argument basically, is that taking up a spot FOR A KICKER simply to have a competition is silly.[/quote]

I am one of the few here that doesn't think it's a useless competition (yet again something I have already said that you missed). Suisham did not end on a good note, nor has he started this year on a good note.
When Romo botched the snap for a chip shot FG vs seattle a couple years ago, did the Cowboys say "no biggy, he'll still be our holder", or did they change things up?
What you have ignored is that I already listed 5 spots that we easily didn't have to bring in and could have used it to find a better kicker. If no one could beat Suisham, then so be it. Doesn't change the fact that just about every team has competition at kicker except us.

[quote]It takes a valuable roster spot that we need desperately away for no good reason.[/quote]

No it doesn't...see above.

[quote]Either Suisham does good or he doesn't. If not we go sign someone else. What the heck does competition do for a kicker really anyways? Either the guy can kick or he can't. They don't kick against each other. It is an individual endeavor.[/QUOTE]

By that logic, why do we have any competition at all at ANY position? It's not like 2 Strong safties go against each other either...they have to play at different times, and the judgement is subjective. So why bother having competition at any position if you truly by into the notion "either they can play or they can't".

Maybe cause someone is actually better than the other????

Remember this comment...nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Re: We need competition for Suisham
 

ugh my head hurts

Re: We need competition for Suisham
 

Look there are so many other issues with us other thn finding competion for a guy who went 29/35 and missed [B]1[/B] kick in the HOF game. [B]IF[/B] he keeps missing 30 yrd kicks this saturday then you [B]might[/B] consider bringing in competion but [B]not now[/B].

Re: We need competition for Suisham
 

Well I must say that I hope that we're not in situations this season (like we were last season) when we kicked a lot of field goals and depended on them to win the game. With that being said, I do hope Suisham gets his act together and stop missing chip shots.