Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?
 

[QUOTE=70Chip;464633]I don't think people appreciate how disfunctional the redskins had gotten by the end of Spurrier. I was at the last Dallas game in which they were shutout and they literally couldn't get the various personell in and lined up before the playclock expired. They were dreadful.

Also, in the eleven seasons that Gibbs was gone the Redskins went to the playoffs once. Gibbs improved on that by 100% in the four years that followed. In addition think he gave the front office a better perspective on how to run an organization. Lastly, Gibbs brought physicality back to the team. Gibbs didn't win every game but I can't think of a single one in which they were out-hit. Teams around the league thought of the Redskins as soft during his absence - 2001 with Marty being the one exception.

I also think that Greg Williams deserves a lot of credit for the restoration of the defensive culture that some now seem to take for granted. I guess I've been watching long enough to still be a little bit surprised when four or five defenders swarm the ball and actually tackle as oppossed to what was routine in the past - broken tackle after broken tackle.[/QUOTE]

Interesting that you mention G-Williams and the defense, because while I think did somethings to set up this team to succeed....I think there'd be no doubt that without Williams' defense the team would have had losing seasons all four years of Gibbs' time here and his second stint would have definitely been considered a failure.

Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?
 

[quote=Miller101;464636]How can people talk about Gibbs 2 being a failure? That makes NO sense whatsoever!!!

When Gibbs 1 left he left behind hall of famers Green and Monk. The Hogs, and Clarke should be in too. Hey, possibly Brian Mitchell, who is something like 3rd all time in yardage in the NFL! Not to mention Charles Mann was a damn good pass rusher too! When Gibbs 1 left we were a team. We were a team that no matter if we were getting beat badly by the 49er's in the play offs or getting owned by the Giants in the Championship Game during 1986 or losing our first game to the Cowboys................we were a team that never quit. That never gave up. We were a team that took shit like Buddy Ryan's bodybag comments VERY SERIOUSLY and went back to kick the crap out of them later. We were a team that took care of each other.

When Gibbs came back he got a team that didn't care. Did everyone here forget about Dallas running up the score on us in 2003? Troy Hambrick had 200 yards on the ground against us! Troy Hambrick for Pete's Sake!!! How in the hell do you let someone as bad as him rack up 200 yards! THAT IS BULLSHIT!!! You know our players didn't give a crap about that game. You know they didn't care that we were playing Dallas. For Hambrick to get those yards and for our quarterback to have a zero passer rating; our guys quit. They quit on us and on each other. Smoot said it best when he said, "Half the team didn't show up to play today".

The team also set a franchise record for penalties in one year too!

When Gibbs got back here thats what he had to work with. I won't forget the first thing Gibbs did when he got here. He cut Jeremiah Trotter. He cut him just a few weeks after he got here too. Jeremiah then got picked back up by the Eagles and he immediately said, "I've always bled green". He Got rid of someone that didn't care to be here.

Next up was Champ Bailey. I was at the last game of the 2003 season. My seats are at the Redskins Tunnel and in the second quarter, on the other side of the field, I saw something that nearly made me puke. McNabb threw one of his infamous screens to a running back and then Champ Bailey came up...................and escorted the guy into the end zone. Touchdown Philly! I thought no way! I saw that wrong! They were far away! I missed that play! When I saw the replays later, I knew I had seen it right. Gibbs got rid of his ass! And got someone that is a staple in our offense! GREAT MOVE GIBBS!

Gibbs did a massive overhaul on our roster for the first two years. He was just trying to fix what WAS a very tough and elite franchise in the NFL. He was just trying to get the Redskins back to where they were when he left the first time. He cut Jesse Armstead and brought in Marcus Washington. Cut Iffy Ohalete and brought in Sean Taylor (RIP Sean). Traded Champ Bailey and brought Portis and Shawn Springs. Added Cornelius Griffen to the D-line. It goes on and on. It took him two years to over haul this team.

In his third year here. He had a CRUD load of injuries to deal with. And.............that sucked! He finally gets his team built, but they all get hurt. His last year. He again had a CRUD load of injuries to deal with and then his best player gets murdered. Gibbs wasn't going to lose like that again! He got this team to the play offs.

[B]For those of you that think Gibbs 2 was a failure tell me one other team IN THE HISTORY OF THE GAME that lost their starting linebacker, starting cornerback, starting quarterback, two starting offensive lineman and their starting Safety (Gone but not forgotten). Tell me one other team that made the play offs with all of that crap happening to them! Just one![/B]

Gibbs wasn't a failure. He did something that seemed impossible. His team did it. His team never quit. They never gave up. They took care of each other. He's got this team playing hard against Dallas again. Heck, He embarrassed Dallas during their 'Ring of Shame' game. Embarrassed them again last year by holding them to only one rushing yard. This team went down to Minnesota, who was number one in the league against the run, and with back up lineman in there ran the ball effectively. He had this team, who had just come back from burying their friend and teammate beat the crap out of the Bears. Landry jacked up Muhammed too! He must have been angry about something...............And before it was over he went back to the Meadowlands and beat the superbowl champs in their own house. What else can you ask for? What!? A Superbowl? Maybe this year. Lets see if we can stay healthy and see what this team can do. And see what Zorn can do with it. Just don't call Gibbs 2 a failure.[/quote]


Well since you are asking... the 2001-2002 Patriots, "Before the season even started, quarterbacks coach [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Rehbein"][COLOR=#0000ff]Dick Rehbein[/COLOR][/URL] died of a heart attack.", they lost Drew Bledsoe, and had to deal with September 11. But still managed to win the SuperBowl.
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_New_England_Patriots_season]2001 New England Patriots season - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url]

Gibbs 2 should get credit for creating stability within the skins, but thats about it.
If i hire a tutor for a kid who skips school and flunks out, pay him millions and all he can muster to do is get the kid to pass less than 50% of his classes, am I going to be happy and rave what a good job he did? NO!

Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?
 

I agree that Gibbs 2 was way better than what went before it. And that's a big deal, no doubt. He did overhaul the roster, with some mixed results, though generally for the better. And he did deal with serious injury problems, not to mention the Taylor situation. Concerning Taylor, I don't think there's anyone else I'd rather have had at the helm during that incredibly difficult time than Joe Gibbs. So there's lots of positives.

But from the standpoint of what occurred on the football field (and yes, I know, that's not the only rubric), I still think it was a failure. The numbers are relatively clear, especially when you focus on the offense. And given JGs offensive performance in the first stint (see the 1991 team or the 1988 team, for example), if someone had asked you right at the beginning if below .500 ball with one of the weakest offenses in the league would be a success, you'd have said no way, and you'd probably have accused the guy of being a hater. So in that specific regard, I think it was a failure. In that time, the cow-roids have surged and the gints have won a Superbowl. Would you ever have thought 4 years ago that the gints would win a Superbowl before us?

In the final analysis, I think JG did a good job as team president and a less-than-stellar job as head coach. The rebuilding was a serious task, and we have him to thank for that (I agree that JZ would be the first to agree with that). But on the field it was not up to snuff. Given that massive expectations with Gibbs returning, that's a failure.

(Again, JG is among my football heroes. Just trying to evaluate things clearly after the fact.)

Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?
 

I think Zorns performance this season will change a lot of opinions. If he does even a decent job (9-7?) then I would say that all those other things that Gibbs did would be consider a success. However, if Zorn tanks it, then Gibbs rebuilding would mean nothing methinks.

Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?
 

[QUOTE=Stacks42;464678]Well since you are asking... the 2001-2002 Patriots, "Before the season even started, quarterbacks coach Dick Rehbeindied of a heart attack.", they lost Drew Bledsoe, and had to deal with September 11. But still managed to win the SuperBowl [/QUOTE]


um, so a quarterback, a quarterback coach, and a tragedy that hit every team (you might argue it hit ny, and washington even harder, and increased the rally for the "PATRIOTS") not quite the same as the list presented earlier.

Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?
 

Long time no talk fella's

I would prefer to stay positive and think that in a few years time, we will all look back and say "Gibbs built the team to win it all and Zorn finished the job."

Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;464699]um, so a quarterback, a quarterback coach, and a tragedy that hit every team (you might argue it hit ny, and washington even harder, and increased the rally for the "PATRIOTS") not quite the same as the list presented earlier.[/quote]

My point was every team has it hard, the good ones seem to find a way to win. And it is very similar to the list, well if you dont like that one check out [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_XXXIX]Super Bowl XXXIX - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url], where the pats basically lost thier entire secondary having to have a WR Troy Brown play both ways.

Those 2 teams found a way to win through adversity, period. The NFL is based on wins and loses and if you want to judge JG2 on that, than he wasnt very good.

Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?
 

by the numbers, JG2 made the playoffs 2 out of his 4 years. How many other coaches did that? He didn't win a SB true, 30 other teams in each season would say the same. He is a top rung coach who brought respectabilibity and pride back to the Skins.

Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?
 

Here is a breakdown over the last 4 years:
3 teams went all 4 yrs NE, Indy, Seattle
3 went 3 of the 4 yrs SD, PIT, NYG
4 of those 6 are HOF coaches on stable franchises

17 teams either played in 1 or 0 games

9 teams went 2 of the 4 years. so at worst JG was the 15th best coach during that time and at best the 7th. with EVERYTHING that has been brought up in this thread i think he has to be closer to the 7th then the 15th. And far better then the years in between JG1 and JG2.

Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;464735]Here is a breakdown over the last 4 years:
3 teams went all 4 yrs NE, Indy, Seattle
3 went 3 of the 4 yrs SD, PIT, NYG
4 of those 6 are HOF coaches on stable franchises

17 teams either played in 1 or 0 games

9 teams went 2 of the 4 years. so at worst JG was the 15th best coach during that time and at best the 7th. with EVERYTHING that has been brought up in this thread i think he has to be closer to the 7th then the 15th. And far better then the years in between JG1 and JG2.[/quote]

So basically you are saying he was an average coach.

An average coach with the one of if not the highest payrolls in the NFL, not to mention the highest paid coaching staff. Marty Schottenheimer was able to turn around the chargers in far less time, even Marvin Lewis made the Bengals (a perenial laughing stock) winners. Jeff Fischer has made the Titans contenders with not much to work with. Jack Del Rio and on and on.

Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?
 

Joe came in an inherited a crappy team and FO, drafted a promising QB in Campbell, cleaned house and straighten it out. As we all know, it takes time to develop a QB, his second time around was as impressive as his first, especially last year (his best coaching job in either 1 or 2). If Joe would of come back this year we would be in the SB this year, maybe Zorn can takes us. Gibbs 2 was different than Gibbs 1 in which he inherited an inexperienced team with few leaders and no GM to help. I don't care what anyone says, Gibbs 2 was great, he made a few mistakes (timeout Buffalo) but people forget all the personal hardship that man endured through the season and still motivated his team to the playoffs. The Suisham missed field goal changed the momentum. People were spoiled from Gibbs 1, the man is human, look at his NASCAR team this year with back at helm. Can you say WINNER!! Enough said.

Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?
 

How can u have 2 legacies ??

Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?
 

[QUOTE=EARTHQUAKE2689;464740]How can u have 2 legacies ??[/QUOTE]

Now there's something to think about!

Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;464738]Joe came in an inherited a crappy team and FO, drafted a promising QB in Campbell, cleaned house and straighten it out. As we all know, it takes time to develop a QB, his second time around was as impressive as his first, especially last year (his best coaching job in either 1 or 2). If Joe would of come back this year we would be in the SB this year, maybe Zorn can takes us. Gibbs 2 was different than Gibbs 1 in which he inherited an inexperienced team with few leaders and no GM to help. I don't care what anyone says, Gibbs 2 was great, he made a few mistakes (timeout Buffalo) but people forget all the personal hardship that man endured through the season and still motivated his team to the playoffs. The Suisham missed field goal changed the momentum. People were spoiled from Gibbs 1, the man is human, look at his NASCAR team this year with back at helm. Can you say WINNER!! Enough said.[/quote]

C'mon man. You've got to be kidding me. Don't you think you're going a little overboard here? I love JG's. But to say Gibbs 2 was great is just way off. Let's face it. The offense is his side of the ball. He has nothing to do with the defense. His offense, as far as scoring points was concerned, wasn't very good. Blown 2nd half leads, poor clock mgt, his loyalty to Brunell and conservative play calling were things he could control. For the most part he did a below average job in these areas. You know if Zorn makes the same game day mistakes Gibbs did, he'd be run out of town. If it wasn't for GW's defense then we don't win the playoff game at TB. 3/4 years GW fielded a top 10 defense with average to slightly above talent and he was run out of town. Let's not let our love for Gibbs stand in the way of giving an objective opinion about his is 2nd go around.

Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?
 

And another thing that bothers me is everyone says we went to the playoffs 2 out of the last 4 years. Yes, that is a fact. But we won ONE game. That's one playoff game in 4 years. Let's not get carried away here. Have our expectations sunk so low that we're happy to simply make the playoffs and go home after one game?

Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?
 

[QUOTE=Stacks42;464737]So basically you are saying he was an average coach.
[/QUOTE]

Not really.

My position is that JG2 was a far better coach than any others in the span between JG1 and JG2, and that he gave the Skins a chance going forward. Every other coach in that span left with the team back in disarray, Gibbs did not.
He was not the HOF coach from the 1980's, but he didn't have an owner like Jack Kent Cooke. I think (I hope) he taught Dan Snyder how to be that kind of owner, but that part of his time will only be determined after 5-10 years. The teams he fielded and brought to play for the past four years at least made you proud of the Skins as a team.
I guess my final point on it, is that to me, a Redskins fan since I was able to watch TV, (long long ago in a galaxy far away), is JG2's legacy rest more on what he re-established, [B]pride honor balance[/B], then the specific fact that his offense was lacking. If you want to lessen his time here cuz he didn't win enough, you certainly can, but I can't.

Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?
 

[QUOTE=skinsfan69;464764]And another thing that bothers me is everyone says we went to the playoffs 2 out of the last 4 years. Yes, that is a fact. But we won ONE game. That's one playoff game in 4 years. Let's not get carried away here. Have our expectations sunk so low that we're happy to simply make the playoffs and go home after one game?[/QUOTE]

I'm with you on the "lowered expectations" (said in the sing songy voice used on MadTV's Lowered Expectations). But there's a definite reason for it, it's called "We averaged 7 wins a season" in the 11 seasons between Gibbs' coaching stints.

I think we're missing the genius of what Coach Gibbs did. He got Dan Snyder to see the folly of the big spending sprees, but its how he did it that's sick. Instead of coming in and saying, "That's not how we did it in my day" Coach Gibbs said "Fire up Redskins One!" You know Snyder still views 2000 as the "Lost Season," that if he had any coach other than Norv Turner then all those moves would have paid off, especially coming off the playoff push in '99. Well, Gibbs said "OK, I'll show you" and after '05 he allowed Snyder to crank up Redskin One and use his lucky pen to sign all the free agents he wanted, which then resulted in 5 wins and an offense best described as limited.

Nah, Gibbs 2.0 to me will be defined by the lesson he taught our owner. Gibbs showed Snyder that a team is not built overnight, that even legendary coaches can struggle, and that he should invest more in the draft and use free agency (and his checkbook) judiciously. And he taught all those lessons without ever once actually saying those things, he allowed Snyder the space to grow as an owner. And then, just to show that he still has it, he was somehow able to get the team to come together after it's best player was murdered in his home. Maybe on the field Gibbs was just ok, but overall, dude did the damn thing, and better than anybody else could have.

Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?
 

[QUOTE=skinsfan69;464764]And another thing that bothers me is everyone says we went to the playoffs 2 out of the last 4 years. Yes, that is a fact. But we won ONE game. That's one playoff game in 4 years. Let's not get carried away here. Have our expectations sunk so low that we're happy to simply make the playoffs and go home after one game?[/QUOTE]

Had you watched between 1993 and 2004? Our franchise had sunk that low, we were becoming meaningless. And between 1988 and 1991, guess what we only won 1 playoff game then too.

EDIT: And for the record 1993-2003: 2 playoff appearance 1 win. That's all folks.

Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?
 

[QUOTE=CRedskinsRule;464785]Had you watched between 1993 and 2004? Our franchise had sunk that low, we were becoming meaningless. And between 1988 and 1991, guess what we only won 1 playoff game then too.

EDIT: And for the record 1993-2003: 2 playoff appearance 1 win. That's all folks.[/QUOTE]

EXACTLY! But you've given us one playoff appearance too many, only made the playoffs in '99 during that stretch. So Gibbs 2.0 in that lens is a resurgence!

Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?
 

I simply meant 2 games, not in separate years. Wouldn't want anyone thinking we had 2 playoff seasons :nono:

Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?
 

[QUOTE=skinsfan69;464763]C'mon man. You've got to be kidding me. Don't you think you're going a little overboard here? I love JG's. But to say Gibbs 2 was great is just way off. Let's face it. The offense is his side of the ball. He has nothing to do with the defense. His offense, as far as scoring points was concerned, wasn't very good. Blown 2nd half leads, poor clock mgt, his loyalty to Brunell and conservative play calling were things he could control. For the most part he did a below average job in these areas. You know if Zorn makes the same game day mistakes Gibbs did, he'd be run out of town. If it wasn't for GW's defense then we don't win the playoff game at TB. 3/4 years GW fielded a top 10 defense with average to slightly above talent and he was run out of town. Let's not let our love for Gibbs stand in the way of giving an objective opinion about his is 2nd go around.[/QUOTE]

JG didn't have the luxury of giving his backup QB a few years to sit on the bench and learn like Rypien and Humphries, that's why he stuck with Brunnell because of his experience (eventhought he was over the hill) gave us the best chance to win. i still say that JG didn't live to the expectations (for some of you guys) because of the lack of QB consistency, lack of veteran leadership and an almost complete roster turn over. When you have that over your head 4 years is not enough, 1 more year (this year) and Gibbs would have us in the SB. Hopefully Zorn will take us there.

Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?
 

[QUOTE=CRedskinsRule;464788]I simply meant 2 games, not in separate years. Wouldn't want anyone thinking we had 2 playoff seasons :nono:[/QUOTE]

My bad, didn't mean to jump out signifying and all. - ode to Dolemite

Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?
 

Someone said he doesn't care about wins and losses as long as the Skins are a hard-nosed team that plays as if it cares.

Excuse me but in the NFL the ONLY things that matter are wins and losses.

If the Spurrier teams at 5-11 went out and played hard and banged opponents around, would you have like to keep him here for three more seasons of 5-11? Not many other fans would like that.

One other minor point with the rant that says "Gibbs 2.0" is not allowed to be called a failure:


Those teams he had from 1980 - 1990 were assembled by someone other than himself. Someone else handed him the talent that eventually manifested itself as Hall of Fame players and "The Hogs". So, if you want to excuse "Gibbs 2.0" because he had weak players when he showed up, then you also have to acknowledge that for the vast majority of "Gibbs 1.0" he had great players that where handed to him on a platter.

Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;464789]JG didn't have the luxury of giving his backup QB a few years to sit on the bench and learn like Rypien and Humphries, that's why he stuck with Brunnell because of his experience (eventhought he was over the hill) gave us the best chance to win. i still say that JG didn't live to the expectations (for some of you guys) because of the lack of QB consistency, lack of veteran leadership and an almost complete roster turn over. When you have that over your head 4 years is not enough, 1 more year (this year) and Gibbs would have us in the SB. Hopefully Zorn will take us there.[/quote]

Well that's where he made the mistake cause in today's NFL, if you draft a guy real high and give up the ranch for him, you play him right away. Looking at Brunell at the end of 05 was enough for me to see that he wasn't a 16 game starter anymore. As someone else mentioned, Gibbs was probably fine Mon. through Sat. But on gameday I was expecting the old Gibbs. Remember the man who was the master at halftime adjustments?? Sorry but we never ever saw that in his 2nd go around. Just look at all the 2nd half blown leads. But hey, I'm certainly not knocking the man cause he did change the culture around here and we are on the right track.

Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?
 

[QUOTE=Stacks42;464457]Im a Gibbs fan, but his record speaks for itself.
1. He won less than 50% of his games in 4 years.
2. Won 1 of 3 playoff games, and you can chalk most of that up to the D.
3. He (the skins) spent a ton of money on players and coaches.
4. He couldnt drop Brunell, when he was hurting the team.
5. Couldnt put together a team that didnt have a bunch of motion penalties, false starts, and delay of games.

[B]If this were any other coach, everyone would say that he was garbage.[/B] This is a "what have you done for me lately" league, and he didnt do much the second time around. But heck, he had a team that fought thier guts out.[/QUOTE]

That's the point - Joe Gibbs was NOT just any other coach. He was our coach; he's family and always will be. I agree with the sentiment of this thread in that JGII's success was not necessarily defined by his W-L record, but perhaps by the foundation he set, which I believe will redefine the Skin's W-L record in the future. And maybe not, but do we dare think of our team's legacy had he not returned?

Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?
 

[quote=SkinDogg;465119]That's the point - Joe Gibbs was NOT just any other coach. He was our coach; he's family and always will be. I agree with the sentiment of this thread in that JGII's success was not necessarily defined by his W-L record, but perhaps by the foundation he set, which I believe will redefine the Skin's W-L record in the future. And maybe not, but do we dare think of our team's legacy had he not returned?[/quote]

I agree with your statement. There's no question he left a solid team behind him on both sides of the ball. He made plenty of mistakes his second time around, but he absolutely strengthened the foundation of the Redskins. He backed Snyder off significantly, and finally football people are making the football positions. He also brought in a solid mix of good rookie draft picks and some good veteran leadership. His first priority after being re-hired was bringing in Gregg Williams and a good mix of other experienced coaches, which developed the solid team we now have.

Of course I envisioned more playoff glory than we experienced during his second run, but I certainly don't see his efforts as a failure either.

So sure, he didn't win another Super Bowl, but he made a few playoff runs, guided our team through the worst tragedy in franchise history, and left behind a team of solid players and coaches headed in a much better direction than before he returned.