Re: Defensive line..Stop the man crushes..
 

[QUOTE=dmvskinzfan08;465443]
Green? Rob Jackson is a rookie but he is getting sacks..[url=http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=0&statisticCategory=SACKS&conference=null&season=2008&seasonType=PRE]NFL Stats: by Player Category[/url][/QUOTE]

HA ... look at the names on that list. A bunch of scrubs who'll be lucky to make a team. Besides, he only has two sacks.

Let's see if we can make a list of DEs who had two sacks in their career, but never amounted to anything. Oh boy, it'll be a long day.

Re: Defensive line..Stop the man crushes..
 

[quote=dmvskinzfan08;465443]Well atleast he can touch a QB in a game. Preseason or not. I am talking abotu some of these older guys. Its really to late to do anything now. But Our DBs get more sacks than out D-Line. I am glad we got Jason Taylor and have Andre Carter. I like the kid Montgomery. But I am talking about Pass rushers for the future and back-ups. Maybe man crushes was the wrong word. I actually hate that word myself..sounds kinda..but anyways..familiarity or seniority. How many games have you watched were we barely touch the Qb and his jersey is extra clean..?

[B]Green? Rob Jackson is a rookie but he is getting sacks..[/B][URL="http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=0&statisticCategory=SACKS&conference=null&season=2008&seasonType=PRE"][B]NFL Stats: by Player Category[/B][/URL]

I think the people we have are decent..but we need to take it to the next level. We have upgraded. But we should have done more earlier.[/quote]

Frankly who cares? [U]It's the preseason[/U].

Re: Defensive line..Stop the man crushes..
 

If anyone were to suggest there is a man-crush on the Dline...it would have to be Carter....which is valid...I like the guy he proved last year he is a keeper....great job Front Office.....

The only other possible man-crush is Jason Taylor.
I must admit, the hype is much greater than his limited production so far.
I thought he'd have more of an impact last game, but it is still early in preseason and he doesn't have his mean streak going yet.

I sure hope he is a good as advertised and not as vanilla as the last couple outings.
A 2nd rounder is a lot for a 2 year guy...he better be damn good.

Re: Defensive line..Stop the man crushes..
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;465446]How fucking hard is it to just name the players you're talking about? This is so unbelievably ridiculous. Is it so damn hard to just name the effin players instead of being so freakin' cryptic? Are you talking about Griffin, Boschetti, Evans (those are the only veterans left that I can think of), are you talking about all of them, one of them, two of them? Put some friggin' meat on the bones of your thread. Goodness if this is the crap you're going to offer, I can see why ES didn't want you around.[/QUOTE]

Ditto. Aside from the obfuscation, how the hell can any of us criticize the franchise over pass rush when we've done more this off-season (in a single transaction albeit) than in 7 previous seasons? What the hell is the expectation here: transfer the Giants d-line roster down to DC.

[I]Right[/I]

Re: Defensive line..Stop the man crushes..
 

Can I have a crush on Jason Taylor just becuase he's hot as hell? ... LOL

Re: Defensive line..Stop the man crushes..
 

The other thing worth noting is that JT has zero reason to show his stuff in preseason. Zero. Not because he's the guaranteed starter and he can be lazy. He is working into a new position for the most part and trying new things. Why flash your shit when it doesn't count? Preseason for a guy like JT is just to make sure you're in playing shape and feeling out the other side of the line.

That said, we should expect a d-line clinic come Sept. 4 from both teams. JT will be flying especially in his new role and it will be the shit if we create more sacks than they do.

Re: Defensive line..Stop the man crushes..
 

[QUOTE=hesscl34;465473]Can I have a crush on Jason Taylor just becuase he's hot as hell? ... LOL[/QUOTE]

Somewhere Mark Brunell is quietly weeping in a corner...

Re: Defensive line..Stop the man crushes..
 

I'm not worried at all about JT. IMO, DE is one of the easiest positions on the field. It's not like he has to learn a bunch of new stuff. Except for stunts and dropping into coverage, all the DE has to do is tackle the ball carrier. JT hasn't forgotten how to do that.

Re: Defensive line..Stop the man crushes..
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;465477]Somewhere Mark Brunell is quietly weeping in a corner...[/quote]

You just had to go and bring him up?... I miss him.. (sniff sniff) ... :(

Re: Defensive line..Stop the man crushes..
 

[quote=dmvskinzfan08;465433]Yeah and I have seen people saying Rob Jackson is going to the PS..lol. Isn't about depth this about production. Our D-Line needs to revamp. If we have some players with potential..We need to give them a chance..[/quote]

I get what you are saying. We have a bunch of D-lineman that have only gotten ___ sacks and ___ qbs pressures over the past __ years, and we should bring in ___ new guys that can get ___ sacks a year.

There does that explain his point to everyone?

Re: Defensive line..Stop the man crushes..
 

haha i love when poorly thought out thread topics turn into open mic night. good read warpath!

while i had hoped to see JT show us something we havent seen from a skins D lineman in a long time, i am willing to wait till the season begins when it counts. barring that foot/heal? injury from flaring up into a real problem i think he will be a game changer a couple times this year. i am straight up giddy to see him out there for 4 quarters.

go skins!

Re: Defensive line..Stop the man crushes..
 

Its the older guys and the non productive players that we need to start to replace. Come on its very clear who is not helping along the line with these older guys and the ones who don't produce. I'm not talking about JT or Carter but the older guys need to be replaced. We need younger guys to replace the older guys and the ones who don't produce so we can get to the QB and not let him have all day. If these older guys won't get the job done and we cannot count on the one's who don't produce to come in and take over. Its all very clear.

Re: Defensive line..Stop the man crushes..
 

[quote=firstdown;465509]Its the older guys and the non productive players that we need to start to replace. Come on its very clear who is not helping along the line with these older guys and the ones who don't produce. I'm not talking about JT or Carter but the older guys need to be replaced. We need younger guys to replace the older guys and the ones who don't produce so we can get to the QB and not let him have all day. If these older guys won't get the job done and we cannot count on the one's who don't produce to come in and take over. Its all very clear.[/quote]

lol crystal clear

Re: Defensive line..Stop the man crushes..
 

WAIT..........if the old guys go, WHO's going to deliver the 100 sacks????

Re: Defensive line..Stop the man crushes..
 

[QUOTE=Hog1;465514]WAIT..........if the old guys go, WHO's going to deliver the 100 sacks????[/QUOTE]

Duh, Colt Brennan.

Re: Defensive line..Stop the man crushes..
 

[QUOTE=GhettoDogAllStars;465515]Duh, Colt Brennan.[/QUOTE]

Colt can't get the sacks, he's replacing JC. Obviously, we need to use next year's draft picks for the D-Line this year.

Re: Defensive line..Stop the man crushes..
 

I say we trade out first round draft pick again next year and get back the 2nd rounder we lost for getting Jason Taylor, then it will make it all worth it. That's how you make your trade's smarter... In al honesty, we don't need to sign any first round players next year either because we arestill building depth and bringing in young studs and we still have a great mix of VERY good vets. Besides, the money the 1st rounders get is crazy and more than not, alot of the 2nd and 3rd round players turn out to be STUDS as well.. It's all about how you draft, and im very confident in our drafting and actually look forward to the draft. unlike the days of Spurrier and Norv Turner...( I give credit to Vinny C for that)

We should be looking to get a come-up whenever we can. Whenever someone wants to do a deal with us, we need to make sure it benefits us or both teams or we dont do it. We need to try to stockpile picks and maximize the potential of getting great talent with the draftpicks you compile.

Re: Defensive line..Stop the man crushes..
 

Are we talking about Griffin?

Re: Defensive line..Stop the man crushes..
 

I say we offer Brennan to the Giants for Usi and Justin tuck. I know we'd be giving up our future hall of fame qb, but we need some sacks. They would be stupid not to take the trade.

Re: Defensive line..Stop the man crushes..
 

[QUOTE=WaldSkins;465564]I say we offer Brennan to the Giants for Usi and Justin tuck. I know we'd be giving up our future hall of fame qb, but we need some sacks. They would be stupid not to take the trade.[/QUOTE]

Only if they through in their first round picks in 2009 & 2010. Even then they'd be taking us for a ride.

Re: Defensive line..Stop the man crushes..
 

Actually, I'm thinking Indy is secretly hoping Peyton will stay injured so they can trade Reggie Wayne, Bob Sanders and Dwight Freeney for Colt. The name and star power is too great to pass up.

Re: Defensive line..Stop the man crushes..
 

[QUOTE=Stacks42;465499]I get what you are saying. We have a bunch of D-lineman that have only gotten ___ sacks and ___ qbs pressures over the past __ years, and we should bring in ___ new guys that can get ___ sacks a year.

There does that explain his point to everyone?[/QUOTE]

Its funny how you put it. But it is my point and if the blanks get filled in it really makes my point. lol. Not downing the D-Line. But I am tired of them not tocuhing the QB. I dont evne care if they dont sack him. But atleast touch him...

Re: Defensive line..Stop the man crushes..
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;465446]How fucking hard is it to just name the players you're talking about? This is so unbelievably ridiculous. Is it so damn hard to just name the effin players instead of being so freakin' cryptic? Are you talking about Griffin, Boschetti, Evans (those are the only veterans left that I can think of), are you talking about all of them, one of them, two of them? Put some friggin' meat on the bones of your thread. Goodness if this is the crap you're going to offer, I can see why ES didn't want you around.[/QUOTE]

Wow..thanks for the good words dude..Thanks for insulting me. I will name the players. Griffin plays good against the run. But he doesn't touch the QB. Daniels is hurt so I cant put him the conversation. As a whole they haven't produced. That's why we have to rush DBs to get to our QB. The only person who has produced is Carter. Jason Taylor will produce. Montgomery is coming on. Wilson came on at the end of the season. But everyone else hasn't been that fantastic. Why are you getting all frustrated dude.

The reason I am not on ES is because one of the people I was arguing with was friends with the moderator. I got hated on because I said Mason should make the team and Rock was a good returner but he sucked as a RB. Granted he has one long run last game. That's all he has shown.

Secondly I said that Jason Campbell should be given a fair shot. He has only started around 20 games and people were asing for Colt to be the starter. I asked for him to be given a fair chance and got persectued.

another reason this geek kept posting irrelevant stats about Rock..and saying he should be on the team solely for his special team skills. Which could be a good point. So honestly I posted STFU (and not the actual words) to a dude. I got banned for that. Which if you go on the board and check the smileys there is actually one that says STFU so I didn't see the harm. Especially when someone is insulting me and I had seen other posters say it. Also he was saying insulting things.

As far as you. All you have to do is ask for me to be more detailed and stop thowing hissy fits. If it is cool to curse at people on this board and insult them hopefully I wont get banned for defending myself. So moderator..I need to know is it right to throw out the F word because I will along with some other ones. If I listed the people who were doing good. It shouldn't be hard to figure out the ones who aren't doing that much. Especially if you watch the games. This is not about this preseason alone. its about the past 3-4 years when we barely sniff a QB and he picks us apart. The point that I was making is if the people arne't here whether they are veterans or 2-3 year players and they can't touch the Qb we need to find some new blood that can. Whether it is through drafting or free agency. If Erasmus James can be healthy and produce we shouldn't but him on IR unless he is truly injured and not able to put in work. If Rob Jackson has skills to rush the passer than he should be given a chance. For the past few years Carter has been the only one who has produced on a constant basis and that's not enough. With JT here that should change. But he wont be around that long. So if we have talent we shoudl develop it. If we have veterans that are not producing and have been around for a while then we need to stop having a love affair with them and get someone who can do the job. Whether its through trade or free agency or the draft. is that clear enough? I shouldn't even have to name names if you watch the games. You know who is producing and who hasn't.

Re: Defensive line..Stop the man crushes..
 

I'm not trying to speak for SS -- he's pretty good at that himself. However, you started this thread, and nothing has come out of it. No good discussion -- nothing but off-topic BS.

There's a reason for that: you didn't make your case very clearly, and so there were no specific talking points. You just said that the d-line is underachieving, with no arguments to back it up.

SS said, "Daniels, Griffin, Boschetti, Evans, Golston, Wilson, Alexander, and Montgomery need to go?"

You said, "NO I am talking about older playrs that haven't produced and other players that haven't produced."

So, if not any of the players SS mentioned, then who needs to go? I'm not sure there is anyone left.

I'm not trying to gang-up on you. In all actuality, some guys on the d-line will be cut, and this could be a good discussion about who should go.

So, who should go?

Re: Defensive line..Stop the man crushes..
 

[QUOTE=GhettoDogAllStars;465620]

SS said, "Daniels, Griffin, Boschetti, Evans, Golston, Wilson, Alexander, and Montgomery need to go?"



So, who should go?[/QUOTE]

Griffin is getting ancient. But he is good against the run but not a good pass rusher. Daniels is hurt but he hasn't produced when he wasn't. he is getting older and I thought he would have a good year because of his weight lifting regimen. But he got hurt. Buzbee probably would have been a good addition but he got hurt. He is what I consider new blood and a good prospect. Boschetti has not produced. Evans has been decent but not fantastic. You can say the same for Golston. Wilson stepped up at the end of last year. So he may be a keeper. Alexander showed versatility in that he can play O-Line and D-Line so he's a keeper. Montgomery is still young and has good push and has looked decent against the run so he is definitely a keeper. JT may change the dynamics of inside rsuh with people having to pick whether they double team him or Carter. As a whole th past few years the only person whohas stepped up is Carter. That is my point. If Rob Jackson can rush the passer than why should he go to the practice squad? He's looked pretty good in preseason especially since he is a rookie. Its good to have vet leadership. But if they are not producing then the management needs to bring in new blood or concentrate on the D-line in the future. Which they should have address in the draft or free-agency. But JT was definitely a good pick up and if Erasmus James is a good pick up. But if people want Erasmus James on the IR and Rob Jackson on the PS then we basically only picke dup one player and lost two in daniels & buzbee. I heard several teams were interested in Buzbee it was a shame he got hurt. But you win games in the trenches. The Giants showed that. Hopefully our D-line steps up with the help of Taylor and can perform with the likes of the Giants who were lights out the other night on the D-Line, or the Eagles how always have a good line and the Cowboy which I hate to admit but have a decent D-Line also. We need to step up in that area. We might not be able to do anything this year. But hopefully we will in the future.

As far as other people talking off topic. I have nothing to do with that. Sorry I am not a supreme poster on here. But no one if goign to effin insult me because they are getting pissed about a thread I started. Dont read it. Dont reply. But definitely dont start cursing at me. Just state what your issue is. Which I have psoted peoples names in some of the replies in this thread. But I felt it no need to call out people when the D-Line as a whole has not produced sacks or that many QB pressures.

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[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;465454]Here's some good stats regarding defensive lines:

[URL="http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/dl.php"]FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Football analysis and NFL stats for the Moneyball era - Authors of Pro Football Prospectus 2008[/URL]

GTripp will be able to explain these stats better than me ... I know he frequents this site.

Anyways, the data shows our defensive line was ranked 17th last year overall. That puts us above NE, SD, GB, JAX, and DEN, as well as others.

Interestingly enough, those stats rank us #1 last year in the 10+ category -- a measure of LB performance.[/quote]ALY is a great tool to see how the defensive line (and linebackers) are doing independent of big plays downfield, and adjusted for the quality of competition they face. You can look at it, and realize the total product of our DL last year was remarkably average against the run, and below average in pressuring the QB.

ALY is very limited in it's ability to dictate where the weaknesses on the DL are.

Other data I've seen suggests that LE was our biggest weakness against the run last year (the Daniels/Evans/M. Washington/Wilson combination), while the pass rush from Daniels was poor both from the LE position, and on the interior when he replaced Monty in pass rushing downs. Griffin was quietly very good last year, but it was pretty much him, Carter, and Monty getting all the production last year, and Monty didn't play enough to offset the lack of production from the rest of the guys. But again, that's not ALY speaking, that's the consensus opinion I've gathered from a bunch of other sources.

Re: Defensive line..Stop the man crushes..
 

[quote=dmvskinzfan08;465623]Griffin is getting ancient. quote]

I'm sure by now you think you're being picked on. I just wanted to point out that Griff is only 31 years old. I say only because that's far from ancient.

Re: Defensive line..Stop the man crushes..
 

[QUOTE=GhettoDogAllStars;465620]I'm not trying to speak for SS -- he's pretty good at that himself. However, you started this thread, and nothing has come out of it. No good discussion -- nothing but off-topic BS.

There's a reason for that: you didn't make your case very clearly, and so there were no specific talking points. You just said that the d-line is underachieving, with no arguments to back it up.

SS said, "Daniels, Griffin, Boschetti, Evans, Golston, Wilson, Alexander, and Montgomery need to go?"

You said, "NO I am talking about older playrs that haven't produced and other players that haven't produced."

So, if not any of the players SS mentioned, then who needs to go? I'm not sure there is anyone left.

I'm not trying to gang-up on you. In all actuality, some guys on the d-line will be cut, and this could be a good discussion about who should go.

So, who should go?[/QUOTE]

My fault for not being direct in my thread post. Thanks you for responding without throwing effin this and effin that in there and acting like I insulted your family. Hopefully I cleared things up. I also changed the thread so people can talk about who they think is not producing and hwo needs to be cut. Hopefully that's better. Thanks

Re: Defensive line..Stop the man crushes..
 

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;465624]ALY is a great tool to see how the defensive line (and linebackers) are doing independent of big plays downfield, and adjusted for the quality of competition they face. You can look at it, and realize the total product of our DL last year was remarkably average against the run, and below average in pressuring the QB.

ALY is very limited in it's ability to dictate where the weaknesses on the DL are.

Other data I've seen suggests that LE was our biggest weakness against the run last year (the Daniels/Evans/M. Washington/Wilson combination), while the pass rush from Daniels was poor both from the LE position, and on the interior when he replaced Monty in pass rushing downs. Griffin was quietly very good last year, but it was pretty much him, Carter, and Monty getting all the production last year, and Monty didn't play enough to offset the lack of production from the rest of the guys. But again, that's not ALY speaking, that's the consensus opinion I've gathered from a bunch of other sources.[/QUOTE]


[QUOTE=12thMan;465625][quote=dmvskinzfan08;465623]Griffin is getting ancient. quote]

I'm sure by now you think you're being picked on. I just wanted to point out that Griff is only 31 years old. I say only because that's far from ancient.[/QUOTE]

Understandable. He looks old though..lol..Seriously though. That is not that young..and I know people gave Jason Taylor grief because he is about to be 34 but he produces.

As far as ALY and the "other data" goes..those are the same points I made. So that backs up my argument thanks. I am not trying to come down on the D-Line. But they got to put some fear in QBs. If not they will pick us apart.

Re: Defensive line..Stop the man crushes..
 

The other big, big issue in the defensive front seven was that London Fletcher had to make a lot of plays last year, as he usually does on his teams. But the problem is this: when the plays are getting to Fletcher (who often lines up 7-8 yards behind the LOS), more likely than not the offense has accomplished it's goal on the play.

I'm certain that the addition of Jason Taylor will fix whatever was ailing the pass rush. But it won't fix the inability of the LB's to create big plays, which is generally a main key to a Blache-led defense. The linebackers have to do better than they did last year, and hopefully, for the first time in his career, London Fletcher can get some help in play making from the guys on either side of him, and won't have such an obscene percentage of the Redskins' tackles this year.

Re: Defensive line..Stop the man crushes..
 

dmvskinsfan08 - you have a thick skin. I'm proud of you!

Re: Defensive line..Stop the man crushes..
 

It's tough to make a case for Rob Jackson, because he won't start unless there's an injury. However, there might be other guys who are more versatile (like Alexander), so they have a better chance of making the team even though they also won't start unless there's an injury.

Remember, Daniels can play inside as well as outside. So, even though he's old, he's more valuable than a younger guy that is better at DE, but can't play inside. However, Daniels is on IR, so he's out of the equation. I just wanted to give an example.

I'm not sure of the versatility of the other guys on the line, except for Alexander. However, it's possible some of them are more versatile than others. Chances are the versatile guys are going to be the vets -- not the young guys.

So, here's are our d-line depth chart as it stands now:

Taylor / Evans / Jackson
Griffin / Alexander / Boschetti
Montgomery / Golston / Askew
Carter / Wilson / James

I don't see us carrying more than 9 d-linemen, so 3 have to go. None of the starters are going anywhere. I'd be surprised if James was cut before they saw him in action. That leaves 7 guys, all of whom are young (except Evans).

I'd be happy cutting Askew and Boschetti, and moving Evans to LB or PS.

P.S.: All of our current d-linemen are around the mid-twenties, except for Taylor, Carter, Griffin, and Evans.

Re: Defensive line..Stop the man crushes..
 

[QUOTE=hesscl34;465629]dmvskinsfan08 - you have a thick skin. I'm proud of you![/QUOTE]

It's only the pre-season. Let's wait until the regular season starts before we make any bold statements. ;)

Also, he hasn't had any run-ins with Schneed yet. hehe

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[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;465633]It's only the pre-season. Let's wait until the regular season starts before we make any bold statements. ;)

Also, he hasn't had any run-ins with Schneed yet. hehe[/quote]

It might take a few beatings but hopefully he'll learn to turn a blind eye and just walk away... LOL

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[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;465630]P.S.: All of our current d-linemen are around the mid-twenties, except for [B]Taylor, Carter, Griffin[/B], and Evans.[/quote]Which of course, is the big issue, long term.

The guys that we are counting on to produce are the only ones at the back end of, or past their primes.

The goal should not be to throw a fit about what isn't happening now, it's to make sure that when one or more of these guys start to seriously decline, that we have a contingency plan ready.

If, for some reason, there's a decline this year, our current plan is "um, let's see what Golston can do, and uh, maybe Erasmus James will be healthy...and dominant". Basically, we're just hoping to squeeze another good year or two out of these three guys while we wait for Devin Thomas and Malcolm Kelly to get on the field and score enough points to make having a crappy DL irrelevant.

Or at least I think that's the plan. Anyway, thats another discussion.

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[QUOTE=hesscl34;465629]dmvskinsfan08 - you have a thick skin. I'm proud of you![/QUOTE]

Thanks man. I love my team. I just want to see them beat the crap out of some QBs. I would love to see Tony Romo banged up and slammed on his head. Would love to see Eli getting driven into the ground and caouging up the ball. Would love to see McNabb trying to run for a first down and get wiped out and limping to the sidelines..That's all I ask..lol. Sorry for being so critical of the D-Line. But I grew up watching Dexter Manely & Charles Mann. I miss that..sorry

Re: Defensive line..Stop the man crushes..
 

It's only preseason man, relax

Re: Defensive line..Stop the man crushes..
 

[quote=dmvskinzfan08;465638]Thanks man. I love my team. I just want to see them beat the crap out of some QBs. I would love to see Tony Romo banged up and slammed on his head. Would love to see Eli getting driven into the ground and caouging up the ball. Would love to see McNabb trying to run for a first down and get wiped out and limping to the sidelines..That's all I ask..lol. Sorry for being so critical of the D-Line. But I grew up watching Dexter Manely & Charles Mann. I miss that..sorry[/quote]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]I think you'll be pleasantly surprised at how well our Dline does. Remember, our safties are not intact at the moment and we don't have the full pressure upfront right now that we will in regular season. [/FONT][/COLOR]

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[QUOTE=twinskinsfan;465639]It's only preseason man, relax[/QUOTE]

Man..Im cool..cooler than a polar bears toe nails. Chillin like a villian on a snow cap...lol

I am going to leave it at this..I will give the youngins the benefit of the doubt. But these vets..need to step their game up..

Re: Defensive line..Stop the man crushes..
 

[QUOTE=GhettoDogAllStars;465620]I'm not trying to speak for SS -- he's pretty good at that himself. However, you started this thread, and nothing has come out of it. No good discussion -- nothing but off-topic BS.

There's a reason for that: you didn't make your case very clearly, and so there were no specific talking points. You just said that the d-line is underachieving, with no arguments to back it up.

SS said, "Daniels, Griffin, Boschetti, Evans, Golston, Wilson, Alexander, and Montgomery need to go?"

You said, "NO I am talking about older playrs that haven't produced and other players that haven't produced."

So, if not any of the players SS mentioned, then who needs to go? I'm not sure there is anyone left.

I'm not trying to gang-up on you. In all actuality, some guys on the d-line will be cut, and this could be a good discussion about who should go.

So, who should go?[/QUOTE]

Thanks. I mean he was asked multiple times, not just by me, to state who he was talking about. Instead, he wanted to make it some sort of guessing game. Instead of saying "not these guys" he could of just said "these guys" but he didn't. After the first few times of niceties, the only way it seemed possible to get through was to be "a little less nice"