Re: Horton Wins NFC Defensive Player of the Week
 

Alot of fans on this site have Reed Doughty crushes. I always bring up the point, Dude what has Doughty done to deserve to start? And no one figures to answer it. [B]So[/B] if any of you guys think Doughty should start against the Cards or any game [B]please[/B] explain why.

Re: Horton Wins NFC Defensive Player of the Week
 

Why do you think Zorn and Blanche think he should start? I would imagine because he knows the system better right now. There is obviously some reason why Blanche wants him to start and I will trust his judgement since he's been doing this for so long. I think Horton is a hell of player. I told my girlfriend during preseason, this guy is something special. Is he better than Doughty? His upside is WAY better than Doughtys. But what is wrong with playing him part of the game until the coaches are satisfied that he knows the D well enough to start and won't make rookie mistakes? He ain't going anywhere. This kid keeps playing the way he played last week, he won't be on the bench for long.

Re: Horton Wins NFC Defensive Player of the Week
 

[quote=53Fan;478291]Why do you think Zorn and Blanche think he should start? I would imagine because he knows the system better right now. There is obviously some reason why Blanche wants him to start and I will trust his judgement since he's been doing this for so long. I think Horton is a hell of player. I told my girlfriend during preseason, this guy is something special. Is he better than Doughty? His upside is WAY better than Doughtys. But what is wrong with playing him part of the game until the coaches are satisfied that he knows the D well enough to start and won't make rookie mistakes? He ain't going anywhere. This kid keeps playing the way he played last week, he won't be on the bench for long.[/quote]

Like you said, it's called experience vs inexperience. Not too many teams start a rookie at safety especially a 7th rounder. We know he will be special, but for now experience is what counts and that's why Doughty starts, as Horton earns trust from the coaches he will be more involved. Patience to everyone, he will eventually start.

Re: Horton Wins NFC Defensive Player of the Week
 

[quote=DirtyLandry;478222]I don't know what the coaches see in Doughty. He is slow, always out of place and gets burned just as much as Archuleta did. It's not about what you do in practice but what you do on gameday. Horton showed us something even in preseason from the very moment he hit the field...he had a couple sacks and some very good tackles in his first action. I just hope that Blache isn't so stubborn and old school that he won't make a change much like Zorn did with Jon Jansen. Having said that, I understand the D's motto of "there are no starters". Greg Williams coached the same way. Doughty might know more of the playbook and has a good work ethic, but he is nowhere near Horton in terms of athletic ability. Horton has way more upside and needs to see way more time than RD.[/quote]

Dirty, I usually agree with you, but Doughy doesnt make the same mistake twice. He and Landry were VERy good and a good reason why we were able to overcome the sean taylor tragedy and keep our secondary intact last year. Doughty is not slow, in fact, he's pretty quick, and he's smart, VEry smart. Which means he learns fast and gets better. Doughty came from a small school with not so good coaching, the coaches here saw that he had the raw talent and the smarts so they drafted him and he has done a great job for us, especially after being thust into sean taylors shoes. I dont know anyone who could have handled it better . He went out and played like Reed Doughty, and he didnt try to be Sean Taylor. Landry and Doughty have a good chemistry together and they dont give up big plays over the top. Doughty can also hit, and he's only a 2nd-3rd year player and he's only getting better and better. I dont see how you can knock Doughty...???

I agree Horton has shown in 1 game he can make plays, but he was at right place, at the right time. He didnt do anything super magnificent to get those INT's or that fumble return.. I feel much more comfortable with doughty back there right now because he knows our defense better and him and Landry have a good chemistry together and they play well together. I think Horton should be put in on situational downs and he can continue to improve his game. He's still a rookie, and in all seriousness, its very silly to say Horton has more upside than Doughty. Why would you say that?? what evidence tells you that Horton has more upside that Doughty?? They are both young, both late round draft picks, and both play for the redskins... Its not like doughty is some old player who isnt geting any better.. In fact, doughty has gotten better every game he played last year.. and i think he will continue to do so.. Greg Blache didnt call him Doughty "our safety" for no reason..

I realize doughtys white and he's not a sexy player like everyone wants it to be. but he gets the job done and he has done NOTHING to warrant him losing his job.. Thats one thing I cant stand, is when a player gets benched, even though he is playing good, for another player who is a "sexy player" or that Big hitter or whatever. but truely, we are fine at Safety now.. We have plenty of youth there Landry,Kareem Moore, Chris Horton, and Doughty.. If Horton would have beaten doughty our at camp, he would be starting. simple as that. I think it only benefits a player (especially late round picks) to sit and play behind vets because you not only get game time experience, they also get advice and get to watch 2nd hand what you are supposed to do and how to do it right... Some of hte best players in the league were sitting behind Vets for a few years before they start.. Because they knew they werent ready.. Tony Romo even said he would never have made it if he was thrust into starting the first 2-3 years he was inthe league... He said he cant tell anyone how much learning behind a vet helped him out. I think it's one of the intangibles that people forget about.. I honestly think its one reason our young guys come in and do so good. I think our Vets realllly help the young guys out and give them tips and things, and I think the rookies do what they say and play behind our good vets and then when they are called on, they are all ready to step up and make plays.. We have a good group of vets who I think have really helped our young guys out the past few years..

Re: Horton Wins NFC Defensive Player of the Week
 

The way people talk about Reed Doughty and how "bad" he has played, it makes me think that the expectations of him are that of a superstar, when I have always said that Doughty is an average player. Doughty should lose his job either because his performance drops and/or because Horton outperforms hims after a number of games. Doughty should not lose his job b/c he caught a f'ing stomach virus. Rookies are going to perform well in one game, and as Blache would say it can break your heart the next. I don't think the team is going to risk that with the type of passing game that we're going to face this Sunday.

That being said, I tried to find some way to measure RD's performance, and all I could find was # of tackles (since there are some claims that he can't tackle). In seven games (from Wk 13 of last season to this season's Wk 1 game against the Giants) here are RDs tackle stats:

Total Tkls: 45; Total Solo Tkls: 29; Total Ast Tkls: 16; Pass Def: 2
Avg Tkls/Game: 6.4; Avg Solo Tkls/Game: 29
Best Performance (Wk 15 vs. NYG): 11 Tkls, 7 Solo, 1 Pass Def
Worst Performance (Wk 16 @ MIN): 2 Tkls, 1 Solo, 0 Pass Def
Last Performance: 6 Tkls, 4 Solo, 0 Pass Def

Based on just number of tackles, RD's numbers are higher than other Free Safeties in the division . His two pass defended were comparable to other safeties in the division, save for Hamlin of the Cowpokes who had a significant higher number of PDs.

No one is taking away from Horton's performance and potential. We are lucky to have such a good young player. However, stop making arguments that Horton should start after just one game. He needs to develop this season, and could be a starter at the end of the season. But just don't call for a change in roster just b/c of a stomach virus.

Re: Horton Wins NFC Defensive Player of the Week
 

To show Chris Horton a bit of love, head on over to PFT and click on their Best Defensive Player of Week Two Poll

[url=http://www.profootballtalk.com/]ProFootballTalk.com[/url]

He's currently way behind Woodson. Travesty!

Re: Horton Wins NFC Defensive Player of the Week
 

Chris Horton was coached in college by a former Redskin coach who is familiar with our defense. He's 6'1-212 pounds and a very hard hitter. In college he sent numerous guys to the sideline for medical attention. He has good instincts and is around the ball more often than not. In his first start as a rookie, he won nfc defensive player of the week. He is considered a football player more than an athlete ( H.B. Blades). Reed Doughty should start. But I would say Horton has a very GOOD upside.

Re: Horton Wins NFC Defensive Player of the Week
 

For what it's worth, the SS almost never ends up in coverage in the Blache defense. If we are afraid to play Doughty because we think O coordinators would isolate him, let it be known that NY was unable to do so, and Horton (who was starting his first NFL game) played the whole game, and got thrown at once...and that pass wasn't even close.

So any player who knows their assignments and can help against the run when needed could be successful at SS for us.

Re: Horton Wins NFC Defensive Player of the Week
 

Doughty is one of my favorite players. Anyone who can overcome the things he has, is a hero in my book. I'm completely satisfied with him as our starting safety. I think he catches way to much crap from fans and gets thrown under the bus when another player comes along that people think can play better. They act like he's just there until we get someone better. He does a good job as far as I'm concerned. I don't think that talking about the merits of one of our other players takes away from Reed. I'm glad we have both of them. We finally have quality depth. Someone being good does'nt mean the other guy must be bad. Sorry if it came across that way. I'm glad we have 2 good players at strong safety, are'nt you?

Re: Horton Wins NFC Defensive Player of the Week
 

[quote=Ruhskins;478332]The way people talk about Reed Doughty and how "bad" he has played, it makes me think that the expectations of him are that of a superstar, when I have always said that Doughty is an average player. Doughty should lose his job either because his performance drops and/or because Horton outperforms hims after a number of games. Doughty should not lose his job b/c he caught a f'ing stomach virus. Rookies are going to perform well in one game, and as Blache would say it can break your heart the next. I don't think the team is going to risk that with the type of passing game that we're going to face this Sunday.

That being said, I tried to find some way to measure RD's performance, and all I could find was # of tackles (since there are some claims that he can't tackle). In seven games (from Wk 13 of last season to this season's Wk 1 game against the Giants) here are RDs tackle stats:

Total Tkls: 45; Total Solo Tkls: 29; Total Ast Tkls: 16; Pass Def: 2
Avg Tkls/Game: 6.4; Avg Solo Tkls/Game: 29
Best Performance (Wk 15 vs. NYG): 11 Tkls, 7 Solo, 1 Pass Def
Worst Performance (Wk 16 @ MIN): 2 Tkls, 1 Solo, 0 Pass Def
Last Performance: 6 Tkls, 4 Solo, 0 Pass Def

Based on just number of tackles, RD's numbers are higher than other Free Safeties in the division . His two pass defended were comparable to other safeties in the division, save for Hamlin of the Cowpokes who had a significant higher number of PDs.

No one is taking away from Horton's performance and potential. We are lucky to have such a good young player. However, stop making arguments that Horton should start after just one game. He needs to develop this season, and could be a starter at the end of the season. But just don't call for a change in roster just b/c of a stomach virus.[/quote] Dude I don't give a [B]damn[/B] about freakin stats. He has done Nothing to deserve to start PERIOD. Doughty's playing SS not FS so these stats wouldn't be as high if he play SS. Horton made more plays in [B]1[/B] game then Doughty (according to your stats) made last season. Teams don't Fear Doughty and he's worse in the pass than Horton is. He's slow, he can't hit, can't cover and does'nt make plays BUT that is what you get in Reed Doughty. Its called [B]tough luck [/B]when you have a stomach vrus and someone does beter than you in 1 game then RD has done in his NFL career. So Yes Horton deserves to start against the Cards.

Re: Horton Wins NFC Defensive Player of the Week
 

[quote=vallin21;478368]Dude I don't give a [B]damn[/B] about freakin stats. He has done Nothing to deserve to start PERIOD. Doughty's playing SS not FS so these stats wouldn't be as high if he play SS. Horton made more plays in [B]1[/B] game then Doughty (according to your stats) made last season. Teams don't Fear Doughty and he's worse in the pass than Horton is. He's slow, he can't hit, can't cover and does'nt make plays BUT that is what you get in Reed Doughty. Its called [B]tough luck [/B]when you have a stomach vrus and someone does beter than you in 1 game then RD has done in his NFL career. So Yes Horton deserves to start against the Cards.[/quote]Because of 1 game? Even if he doesn't know his responsiblities as well as RD? Zorn said it himself, RD knows the D well enough to help get people lined up correctly and makes the right coverage calls in the secondary. I am not comfortable right now leaving all of that on a rookie. Lets give him some more time. Maybe he starts by the end of the season but he just hasn't earned it yet. The coaching staff was strongly considering mixing up the whole scheme because they were not sure of CH. They talked about Springs moving back and even switching LL. They decided to leave everybody in their original spot and give Horton help. We don't know how much help he was given either. It may be possible that he was lining up wrong on a few plays? They obviously feel more confident in RD and I agree, at least right now.

Re: Horton Wins NFC Defensive Player of the Week
 

[quote=vallin21;478368][B]Dude I don't give a [B]damn[/B] about freakin stats. He has done Nothing to deserve to start PERIOD[/B]. Doughty's playing SS not FS so these stats wouldn't be as high if he play SS. Horton made more plays in [B]1[/B] game then Doughty (according to your stats) made last season. [B]Teams don't Fear Doughty and he's worse in the pass than Horton is.[/B] He's slow, he can't hit, can't cover and does'nt make plays BUT that is what you get in Reed Doughty. Its called [B]tough luck [/B]when you have a stomach vrus and someone does beter than you in 1 game then RD has done in his NFL career. So Yes Horton deserves to start against the Cards.[/quote]

Well so much for this being the site for the knowledgeable fan. Well allow me to make a somewhat intelligent rebuttal (sp?):

Doughty is listed as a FS in the ESPN website, so I went by that.

You say that Doughty is worse than Horton in the pass coverage, so you are implying that Horton is not good in pass coverage and yet you want him to start? I was curious to find out in the past couple of games how much have teams throw in the direction of Doughty (but then I remember that you don't give a damn about stats). So if Doughty is not good in pass coverage (according to you) and Horton isn't, then why start Horton?

Doughty came and replaced Sean Taylor last year, so yeah teams are not going to fear Doughty if you compare him to ST. Now do you think that Horton will strike fear in other teams? I mean did you see how much Santana Moss burned the Saints' rookie CB? Don't forget that Horton's INTs were tipped passes, which speaks to his ability of catching the ball and being alert, but it is not like he made a play.

Well luckily neither you nor I are NFL coaches or the defensive coordinator for the Redskins. There's more than just having a good performance in a game, and that is being consistent in your play, having experience, and knowing the system.

I am glad we have quality depth at the safety position, and a player like Horton is a great asset to have in the defense. He will see lots of playing time, and will be a starter in the future. I just hate when people are willing to throw players in the team that we root for under the bus for stupid reasons.

Re: Horton Wins NFC Defensive Player of the Week
 

[quote=Ruhskins;478420]Well so much for this being the site for the knowledgeable fan. Well allow me to make a somewhat intelligent rebuttal (sp?):

Doughty is listed as a FS in the ESPN website, so I went by that.

You say that Doughty is worse than Horton in the pass coverage, so you are implying that Horton is not good in pass coverage and yet you want him to start? I was curious to find out in the past couple of games how much have teams throw in the direction of Doughty (but then I remember that you don't give a damn about stats). So if Doughty is not good in pass coverage (according to you) and Horton isn't, then why start Horton?

Doughty came and replaced Sean Taylor last year, so yeah teams are not going to fear Doughty if you compare him to ST. Now do you think that Horton will strike fear in other teams? I mean did you see how much Santana Moss burned the Saints' rookie CB? Don't forget that Horton's INTs were tipped passes, which speaks to his ability of catching the ball and being alert, but it is not like he made a play.

Well luckily neither you nor I are NFL coaches or the defensive coordinator for the Redskins. There's more than just having a good performance in a game, and that is being consistent in your play, having experience, and knowing the system.

I am glad we have quality depth at the safety position, and a player like Horton is a great asset to have in the defense. He will see lots of playing time, and will be a starter in the future. I just hate when people are willing to throw players in the team that we root for under the bus for stupid reasons.[/quote]
I'm sorry, but I can't stand when people say that Reed Doughty replaced Sean Taylor last year. Doughty didn't replace Taylor, LaRon Landry replaced Taylor by moving to the FS position. Essentially Doughty replaced Landry at SS.

Re: Horton Wins NFC Defensive Player of the Week
 

[quote=RMSkins;478442]I'm sorry, but I can't stand when people say that Reed Doughty replaced Sean Taylor last year. Doughty didn't replace Taylor, LaRon Landry replaced Taylor by moving to the FS position. Essentially Doughty replaced Landry at SS.[/quote]

You are correct and my apologies for incorrectly stating that Doughty replaced Taylor. However, the point that I was making still applies...of course you can say that Doughty is not going to strike fear in any team, because Doughty is not a superstart player like Landry.

Re: Horton Wins NFC Defensive Player of the Week
 

Doughty or Horton-Horton or Doughty. We're sitting pretty good at strong safety huh?

Re: Horton Wins NFC Defensive Player of the Week
 

I urge anyone who is making the argument that doughty is a very good player to watch game film from last year. It speaks for itself. People that try to defend this below average player make statements like "he replaced Sean Taylor" or "strong safeties don't have to cover". This is rediculous. Homers never want to admit that they have a bad player on thier team...why do you people think we drafted two safties and brought in other FA's?

Re: Horton Wins NFC Defensive Player of the Week
 

[quote=gibbsisgod;478412]Because of 1 game? Even if he doesn't know his responsiblities as well as RD? Zorn said it himself, RD knows the D well enough to help get people lined up correctly and makes the right coverage calls in the secondary. I am not comfortable right now leaving all of that on a rookie. Lets give him some more time. Maybe he starts by the end of the season but he just hasn't earned it yet. The coaching staff was strongly considering mixing up the whole scheme because they were not sure of CH. They talked about Springs moving back and even switching LL. They decided to leave everybody in their original spot and give Horton help. We don't know how much help he was given either. It may be possible that he was lining up wrong on a few plays? They obviously feel more confident in RD and I agree, at least right now.[/quote]

Agreed.

(sorry I haven't had a chance to write you back. I will soon, hope you're doing well)

Re: Horton Wins NFC Defensive Player of the Week
 

I guess for the same reasons we drafted other positions ...depth. If Doughty is below average, I guess Greg Blanche is just an idiot for keeping him on the team, right? I don't believe that for a minute. They will both play alot during games and if Doughty does'nt cut it I guess he'll hit the bench. What's the big deal? There's been an awful lot of talk about this after one game. Remember Timmy Smith rushing for over 200 yards in the Super Bowl? One game. What happened after that? The cream always rises to the top. It will in this case to but you have to give it more than one game. I don't think they want to mess up Hortons head by throwing him into something he might not be prepared to handle just yet. He talked about how nervous he was when he found out he was going to start. You don't want him to lose confidence so you bring him in a little at a time. Is'nt there some unwritten rule that a player should'nt lose his job because of injury? It will play out.

Re: Horton Wins NFC Defensive Player of the Week
 

[quote=DirtyLandry;478492]I urge anyone who is making the argument that doughty is a very good player to watch game film from last year. It speaks for itself. People that try to defend this below average player make statements like "he replaced Sean Taylor" or "strong safeties don't have to cover". This is rediculous. Homers never want to admit that they have a bad player on thier team...why do you people think we drafted two safties and brought in other FA's?[/quote]

I think a lot of us are saying to give Doughty the chance to lose his job. I personally don't think Doughty is a great player, all I'm saying that the people that criticize him talk like he should be a GREAT player. I mean it's not like the team is paying him millions like Archuleta. So he's an average player, so f'ing what? Let him play, let Horton develop and take the job later in the season.

The way people talk make it sound like he's the f'ing demise of the team, which is absolutely ridiculous. When the Redskins lost to Jacksonville, people acted like Doughty was the only horrible thing that happened that day. I mean WTF did Doughty do to the fan base? Did he kick Jim Zorn in the nuts or something? People speak of him worst than they speak of Chad Johnson, T.O., and Randy Moss (when he was bad) combined. Maybe Reed should blow out his knee and be done for the season so all these haters can calm down and stop bashing the hell out of Doughty.

Re: Horton Wins NFC Defensive Player of the Week
 

We think alot alike Ruhskins. Good post.

Re: Horton Wins NFC Defensive Player of the Week
 

This has nothing to do with one good game for a rookie! I was calling for his ass last year, wich is why I said watch the film. RD found himself as a starter by DEFAULT, I think we all know why. Horton is a rookie and he will make rookie mistakes. If you all look back at my origional post you'd see that I said Horton should see more time on the field and that there are no starters on our defense. He is a playmaker, Doughty, is not. Being that such natural playmakers are rare, you need to find a way to get them on the field no matter what. Blache, (not Blanche, 53) said in an interview that there are packages where you will see Doughty AND Horton on the field at the same time. There are obvious, however few weak links on our team. Doughty, Rabach and some teams players. Don't kid yourself guys. Oh, and this whole thing of "an NFL coach can do no wrong" is BULL! There have been plenty of NFL coaches that have made horrible personel decisions. There are so many coaches in the league that would never admit any wrong doing.. Having said that I don't think/ hope not Blache is one of those coaches.

Re: Horton Wins NFC Defensive Player of the Week
 

Whatever. You sound a little stressed. Yeah, they're going to play both. So what's your point? They played with what they had last year and they're playing with what they have this year whether you're calling for his ass or not. And if you want to get picky, it's which, not wich. Chill out man we're 1-1. BLACHE IS getting him on the field, so I really don't know what your gripe is.

Re: Horton Wins NFC Defensive Player of the Week
 

It's all good. The only point I was trying to make is that people need to be held accountable.. I loved the fact that Zorn had the balls to bench Jon Jansen- he wasn't doing his job. It's great that we have a proactive head coach now. I don't support the president just because he is the president of the united states. Much like I don't show love for a certain player just because he puts on a redskins jersey. We will agree to disagree and put this one to bed.

Re: Horton Wins NFC Defensive Player of the Week
 

Sounds good brother.

Re: Horton Wins NFC Defensive Player of the Week
 

[quote=DirtyLandry;478539]It's all good. The only point I was trying to make is that people need to be held accountable.. I loved the fact that Zorn had the balls to bench Jon Jansen- he wasn't doing his job. It's great that we have a proactive head coach now. I don't support the president just because he is the president of the united states. Much like I don't show love for a certain player just because he puts on a redskins jersey. We will agree to disagree and put this one to bed.[/quote]

Well like I said before let's see if Doughty blows out his knee or let's see if can singlehandedly lose the team a game (b/c he can do that apparently) to make you people happy.

Re: Horton Wins NFC Defensive Player of the Week
 

[quote=Ruhskins;478590]Well like I said before let's see if Doughty blows out his knee or let's see if can singlehandedly lose the team a game (b/c he can do that apparently) to make you people happy.[/quote]

He didn't look that good today...

Re: Horton Wins NFC Defensive Player of the Week
 

[quote=dmvskinzfan08;479495]He didn't look that good today...[/quote]

I think Doughty will be overtaken by Horton, my whole barrage of threads were just about that it should not happen after just one game. Doughty had a big mistake (getting burned by Fitz) that overshadowed the rest of his play (8 tkls, .5 forced fumble). I did see Horton in several plays during the game, which I think its great since it will allow him to learn the defense even more.