Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=saden1;498451]Alito, Thomas, Roberts aren't going anywhere any time soon and if Scalia (72) and Kennedy (72) have good genes they'll be around for a while. Thankfully Obama will get to replace all the non-conservative judges.[/quote]

Justice Kennedy will occasionally lean towards the libertarian/socially liberal side, as he did with [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_vs._Texas"]Lawrence v. Texas[/URL] back in 2003 which struck down state laws prohibiting certain sex acts between consenting adults.

But he also sided with the majority in the dreadful [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelo_v._City_of_New_London"]Kelo v. New London, Connecticut[/URL] ruling, which allowed localities to use eminent domain for virtually any purpose they see fit. So he's truly the wildcard in any Supreme Court case.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=BleedBurgundy;498461][B]To my way of thinking, the homosexual lifestyle is inherently wrong.[/B] So that's why I have no issue with children having the natural order of things "forced" upon them. That's my problem with it. I'm not forcing my views on others in that they wouldn't be able to do what they want, I'm saying children should be protected from something that immoral and wrong on a fundamental level. [B]Everybody's got their opinions and positions, this one is mine. It's not based in hatred, it's based on my own sense of right and wrong.[/B] And for what it's worth, in the three states where it came up for vote, the majority of citizens agreed with me.[/quote]

So someone should be thrown in jail because their moral beliefs differ from yours? And I've never been more convinced that a person is proven right based on the fact that there are more people who agree with him than me. If you stood for civil rights for black people in the state of Alabama in 1958 -- you'd be in the minority by far. But that doesn't mean you're wrong and the majority is right.

If you don't mind, I'd like to pick your brain a bit to find out why you think homosexuality is "inherently wrong" -- is it religous, or Biblically based? A violation of natural law?

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=DynamiteRave;498407]Couldn't you say the same thing about heterosexuality? [/quote]

Absolutely not. Without a doubt there is a natural and an unnatural side to this issue. I have no qualms about saying that.

[quote=DynamiteRave;498407]
And nobody is forcing views on anyone. Plenty of research has been done to show no correlation between being raised by gay parents and the child growing up to be gay.

In fact a girl I was friends with in high school, grew up with two mothers. Came out a 3.5 gpa student, heterosexual, went on to do good things with her life.

[B]If you disagree with it from a religious standpoint, I can understand that. But just saying that being gay is an option isn't really how it works. It's not like by being around gay people you're "going to catch the gay"[/B]

[/quote]

I'm probably one of the least religious people on this board. But I can do nothing except vote my conscience and in this case, this is how I feel. To all of those who say that "children are born gay" I don't really know how to respond, but I do know that there are periods in the development of a child where they are vulnerable to suggestion and environmental influence. So while they may not "catch the gay" as you so eloquently put it, there's no saying that they won't be negatively impacted by the constant Pro-Gay lifestyle they will obviously be raised in.

[quote=DynamiteRave;498407]
99% of the time, being gay isn't a choice. Ask anyone who's gay. Sure there are some with bad experiences that turn for solace in the same sex. But everyone that I know, and knowing myself (since I've dabbled in a few things before), I didn't ask for this. It's just the hand that gay people were dealt. I find it a bit troubling that people like to think that people consciously make a decision whether or not to love someone of the same sex or of the different sex.[/quote]

Again, I can't say how people are or are not born and I'm quite sure that nothing has been proven either way in this regard. I can only stay true to what I believe and this is something that has always strongly struck me as contrary to nature and therefore wrong. That's really the end all and be all of my argument, lacking in tangible data as it is. I would never attack anyone for their choices in this regard; but if someone, i.e. the government, asks me as a citizen to give my opinion on an issue that I feel impacts society, I will do so.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=Beemnseven;498468][B]So someone should be thrown in jail because their moral beliefs differ from yours?[/B] And I've never been more convinced that a person is proven right based on the fact that there are more people who agree with him than me. If you stood for civil rights for black people in the state of Alabama in 1958 -- you'd be in the minority by far. But that doesn't mean you're wrong and the majority is right.

If you don't mind, I'd like to pick your brain a bit to find out why you think homosexuality is "inherently wrong" -- is it religous, or Biblically based? A violation of natural law?[/quote]

Wow, where the hell did I say that? You see, this is somewhat amusing to me. It's always the far left leaning individuals among us that are the first to apply labels to those with opposing view points, yet the more conservative are branded the bigots. I have not once advocated any kind of "punishment" for anyone of any persuasion. Not only have I not said it, I don't feel it.

To answer your second question, my feelings are not based on any form of religion, as I personally am not a believer. To me, it is a violation of natural law.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

We took a big step forward in electing an African American President, but it looks like we still have a long way to go in regard to sexuality and the ignorant thinking often involved with it. Sigh.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=Mattyk72;498473]We took a big step forward in electing an African American President, but it looks like we still have a long way to go in regard to sexuality and the ignorant thinking often involved with it. Sigh.[/quote]

Apparently dissension from the majority on this board is the sole form of evidence necessary to be called ignorant.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=BleedBurgundy;498474]Apparently dissension from the majority on this board is the sole form of evidence necessary to be called ignorant.[/quote]

No, not really. Ignorance is what it is. And it's pretty obvious here.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=BleedBurgundy;498471][B]Wow, where the hell did I say that? [/B]You see, this is somewhat amusing to me. It's always the far left leaning individuals among us that are the first to apply labels to those with opposing view points, yet the more conservative are branded the bigots. I have not once advocated any kind of "punishment" for anyone of any persuasion. Not only have I not said it, I don't feel it.

To answer your second question, my feelings are not based on any form of religion, as I personally am not a believer. To me, it is a violation of natural law.[/quote]


It's really quite simple: If you think gay marriage should be illegal, i.e. [I]against the law[/I] -- than anyone who engages in that activity would be in violation of the law and could theoretically be sent to jail.

Now, on to your violation of natural law -- if a behavior, or inherent attraction is found throughout nature, in the animal kingdom, (and yes, we humans are animals) then how could it possibly be a violation of natural law?

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=Beemnseven;498480]It's really quite simple: If you think gay marriage should be illegal, i.e. [I]against the law[/I] -- than anyone who engages in that activity would be in violation of the law and could theoretically sent to jail.

[B]Now, on to your violation of natural law -- if a behavior, or inherent attraction is found throughout nature, in the animal kingdom, (and yes, we humans are animals) then how could it possibly be a violation of natural law[/B]?[/quote]

Lock up the monkeys!

[URL="http://www.livescience.com/bestimg/index.php?cat=gayanimals"]LiveScience.com | LiveScience.com - Gay Animals: Alternate Lifestyles in the Wild[/URL]

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_displaying_homosexual_behavior]List of animals displaying homosexual behavior - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url]

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=Mattyk72;498478]No, not really. Ignorance is what it is. And it's pretty obvious here.[/quote]

Well, we disagree. I can do so respectfully, you've proven repeatedly during the past several months that you cannot. Must be nice to win every argument by proclaiming ignorance from on high.

Apparently the concept of right and wrong is alien to most of those responding to my post. No one seems to believe that anything short of violence or robbery is "wrong." To think that morality plays no part in the overall quality of a civilization is foolish and self-centered. To me, homosexuality is immoral and wrong on a fundamental nature, therefore I can't support any view point that promotes/legitimizes that lifestyle as a viable option. To do so would be to contribute to the continued degradation of our society. Like it or not, that's a legitimate viewpoint. You don't have to agree, but to insult me for stating my opinion in this thread seems a little hypocritical.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

You're certainly free to have an opinion, I simply do not agree with it and I find it closed minded, and insulting on a certain level as well.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=Beemnseven;498480]It's really quite simple: If you think gay marriage should be illegal, i.e. [I]against the law[/I] -- than anyone who engages in that activity would be in violation of the law and could theoretically be sent to jail.

Now, on to your violation of natural law -- if a behavior, or inherent attraction is found throughout nature, in the animal kingdom, (and yes, we humans are animals) then how could it possibly be a violation of natural law?[/quote]

I do not believe the union of a man/man or woman/woman should be held in the same esteem as that of a traditional man/woman relationship. That's where my defense of Prop 8 comes in. No one is talking about locking anyone up here, except you.

I don't know what behaviors or "inherent attractions" take place in your bedroom/local zoo, nor do I want to, but to deny that the natural purpose of having two distinct sexes and the attraction that they possess is for anything other than procreation, well I have to disagree. Plenty of good things get perverted, sexuality is not immune.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=BleedBurgundy;498482]Apparently the concept of right and wrong is alien to most of those responding to my post. No one seems to believe that anything short of violence or robbery is "wrong." To think that morality plays no part in the overall quality of a civilization is foolish and self-centered. To me, homosexuality is immoral and wrong on a fundamental nature, therefore I can't support any view point that promotes/legitimizes that lifestyle as a viable option. To do so would be to contribute to the continued degradation of our society. Like it or not, that's a legitimate viewpoint. [/quote]

See, I guess we have to define what we believe to be wrong. Yes, initiating violence and stealing from someone is wrong because it violates individuals rights. Any action which infringes upon a person's most basic fundamental rights -- their life, their liberty or their property -- can logically be proven to be wrong based upon the fact that just as we wouldn't want something like that happening to us, we shouldn't do it to someone else. In simple terms, it's the Golden Rule.

But consensual homosexual acts do not infringe upon those rights. So there would have to be more of an example of logical reasoning behind your position to back it up.

How exactly does homosexuality contribute to the 'degradation of our society'?

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=BleedBurgundy;498484]I do not believe the union of a man/man or woman/woman should be held in the same esteem as that of a traditional man/woman relationship. That's where my defense of Prop 8 comes in. No one is talking about locking anyone up here, except you.[/quote]


Look, if gay marriage is illegal based on a proposition passed by the people of California, then it is against the law, and anyone who tries to ignore the law and act in clear violation of it would be sent to jail. Otherwise, there's no point in passing laws.


[quote]I don't know what behaviors or "inherent attractions" take place in your bedroom/local zoo, nor do I want to, but [B]to deny that the natural purpose of having two distinct sexes and the attraction that they possess is for anything other than procreation, well I have to disagree. [/B]Plenty of good things get perverted, sexuality is not immune.[/quote]

So in your mind, sexual acts serve no other purpose than procreation?

Think of how many times you've had sex, and then count how many children you have. Isn't there [I]some[/I] other reason human beings engage in sexual activity?

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=Beemnseven;498486]See, I guess we have to define what we believe to be wrong. Yes, initiating violence and stealing from someone is wrong because it violates an individuals rights. Any action which infringes upon a person's most basic fundamental rights -- their life, their liberty or their property -- can logically be proven to be wrong based upon the fact that just as we wouldn't want something like that happening to us, we shouldn't do it to someone else. In simple terms, it's the Golden Rule.

But consensual homosexual acts do not infringe upon those rights. So there would have to be more of an example of logical reasoning behind your position to back it up.

How exactly does homosexuality contribute to the 'degradation of our society'?[/quote]

Last comment on this and I'm done. I'm clearly swimming upstream in this discussion/feeding frenzy. Look at it like a logic problem: I believe homosexuality to be immoral. A society without morals is degraded. Therefore a society that sees what I believe to be immoral behavior as proper has been degraded in my view.

So, say the inevitable happens and the far left get what they want. "My Two Dads" is no longer a shitty tv show from the 80's and is now a common demographic. What's next? Where do you draw the line? Is everything great so long as no one tells anyone else what to do? Do we legalize all drugs, because it will reduce the crime inherent in the trade? Hell, there's [URL="http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1282/is_n13_v47/ai_17238342"]data[/URL] to support the argument. And prostitution? Why keep wasting tax payer dollars prosecuting such a victimless crime? We could regulate it, that would get the abusive pimps away from these maltreated women. We could even institute a "sex tax," and use the money to pay for the national debt. There's a ton of great arguments to support immoral choices. So lets support them all equally. And then we can have the USA our forefathers dreamed of, where the citizens are a mass of homosexuals, drug addicts and prostitutes. Just makes you want to raise some kids, right????

:doh:

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=Beemnseven;498487]Look, if gay marriage is illegal based on a proposition passed by the people of California, then it is against the law, and anyone who tries to ignore the law and act in clear violation of it would be sent to jail. Otherwise, there's no point in passing laws. [/quote]

I'm not a lawyer by any stretch of the imagination, but my understanding is that Proposition 8's purpose was to define marriage in an unambiguous way so as to prevent the liberal interpretation of the law. No one made anything "illegal." It's entirely possible that my understanding is less than perfect. SSG could no doubt explain it in clear terms.

[quote=Beemnseven;498487]
So in your mind, sexual acts serve no other purpose than procreation?

Think of how many times you've had sex, and then count how many children you have. Isn't there [I]some[/I] other reason human beings engage in sexual activity?[/quote]

You are twisting my words, I guess for the purpose of conversation I'll believe it is an accident. I said the reason for there being two distinct sexes and their associated attraction to one another is procreation. There is no biological necessity associated with homosexuality that I know of, other than population reduction. (Maybe this could be the next green initiative, "Save the planet, Get Gay!)

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

The good old slippery slope argument. How predictable. Why not just toss in people marrying animals for good measure?

Don't kid yourself, we already have a country full of homosexuals, drug addicts and prostitutes.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=BleedBurgundy;498489]Last comment on this and I'm done. I'm clearly swimming upstream in this discussion/feeding frenzy. Look at it like a logic problem: I believe homosexuality to be immoral. A society without morals is degraded. Therefore a society that sees what I believe to be immoral behavior as proper has been degraded in my view.

So, say the inevitable happens and the far left get what they want. "My Two Dads" is no longer a shitty tv show from the 80's and is now a common demographic. What's next? Where do you draw the line? Is everything great so long as no one tells anyone else what to do? Do we legalize all drugs, because it will reduce the crime inherent in the trade? Hell, there's [URL="http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1282/is_n13_v47/ai_17238342"]data[/URL] to support the argument. And prostitution? Why keep wasting tax payer dollars prosecuting such a victimless crime? We could regulate it, that would get the abusive pimps away from these maltreated women. We could even institute a "sex tax," and use the money to pay for the national debt. There's a ton of great arguments to support immoral choices. So lets support them all equally. [B]And then we can have the USA our forefathers dreamed of, where the citizens are a mass of homosexuals, drug addicts and prostitutes. Just makes you want to raise some kids, right????[/B]

:doh:[/quote]

Except drugs and prostitution are illlegal. And can potentially hurt other people involved. Being gay hurts no one, including children. If you don't believe it, try reading some studies.

Our forefathers probably never expected black people to be riding in the same bus as white people. Or that I can drink or eat behind my white friends. I mean hell it was only 43 years ago black people could vote without being disenfranchised. I mean thank God for Abe Lincoln or I guess I'd be on a plantation somewhere responding, "Yes, Massa"

I mean it's incredibly disheartening to see people make these sort of negative sweeping generalizations. Painfully obviously made by someone who has never been impacted, close to anyone or probably met who's gay or a gay couple raising children.

Thankfully the proportion of people with this sort of thinking is at least even (instead of larger) than the people who are more open minded. I can only hope the proportion continues to shrink.

As for the religious right? Well they have their beliefs, and I can understand and at least respect it because they at least can throw some Bible lines at me. But... Anyway.. I digress...

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=Beemnseven;498487]Look, if gay marriage is illegal based on a proposition passed by the people of California, then it is against the law, and anyone who tries to ignore the law and act in clear violation of it would be sent to jail. Otherwise, there's no point in passing laws.




So in your mind, sexual acts serve no other purpose than procreation?

Think of how many times you've had sex, and then count how many children you have. Isn't there [I]some[/I] other reason human beings engage in sexual activity?[/quote]

Beemn, I can't figure out where you stand on this. You seem to be against it, but seem to enjoy picking at other people's views? I dunno.

Was just curious. :)

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=Mattyk72;498493]The good old slippery slope argument. How predictable. Why not just toss in people marrying animals for good measure?

Don't kid yourself, we already have a country full of homosexuals, drug addicts and prostitutes.[/quote]

Why do I keep letting myself get dragged into this???

UGH.

You're right Matty. I guess we should all embrace that wonderful reality and remove all impediments to indecency. There is such a thing as a slippery slope, while I agree that the analogy gets abused, there is truth in its origination.

You guys win, I'm clearly a neo-nazi, fundamentalist, hatred-spouting, ignorant, bigoted jackass with no opinion worth expressing. First thing tomorrow morning, I promise to put a rainbow flag on my truck and join GLAAD. Later, I'll attempt to find a pride parade to march in. If you see me, wave, I'll be dressed like this:

[IMG]http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1181/1073243019_f71e931fc2.jpg?v=0[/IMG]


Later.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=BleedBurgundy;498491]I'm not a lawyer by any stretch of the imagination, but my understanding is that Proposition 8's purpose was to define marriage in an unambiguous way so as to prevent the liberal interpretation of the law. No one made anything "illegal." It's entirely possible that my understanding is less than perfect. SSG could no doubt explain it in clear terms.



You are twisting my words, I guess for the purpose of conversation I'll believe it is an accident. I said the reason for there being two distinct sexes and their associated attraction to one another is procreation. There is no biological necessity associated with homosexuality that I know of, other than population reduction. (Maybe this could be the next green initiative, "Save the planet, Get Gay!)[/quote]

What prop 8 did was make it illegal for the state government to issue marriage licenses to gay couples. It essentially denies them the legal benefits of marriage.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=saden1;498501]What prop 8 did was make it illegal for the state government to issue marriage licenses to gay couples. It essentially denies them the legal benefits of marriage.[/quote]

So no one gets thrown in jail? Hmmmmm, could've sworn I said something to that effect.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=BleedBurgundy;498499]Why do I keep letting myself get dragged into this???

UGH.

You're right Matty. I guess we should all embrace that wonderful reality and remove all impediments to indecency. There is such a thing as a slippery slope, while I agree that the analogy gets abused, there is truth in its origination.

You guys win, I'm clearly a neo-nazi, fundamentalist, hatred-spouting, ignorant, bigoted jackass with no opinion worth expressing. First thing tomorrow morning, I promise to put a rainbow flag on my truck and join GLAAD. Later, I'll attempt to find a pride parade to march in. If you see me, wave, I'll be dressed like this


Later.[/quote]

Honestly, what sort of exposure to gay people have you had in your lifetime? Just curious. Any good friends or family?

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=DynamiteRave;498496]Beemn, I can't figure out where you stand on this. You seem to be against it, but seem to enjoy picking at other people's views? I dunno.

Was just curious. :)[/quote]

I'm for personal freedom and individual rights. If someone finds love or pleasure in the arms of another person who happens to be of the same sex, it should be absolutely, perfectly legal. Same for gay marriage.

And yes, I do enjoy unravelling the logic of those with whom I disagree.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

BleedBurgundy, you're not a neo-nazi but the validity of your argument leaves much to be desired. You are entitled to your opinions but I would argue that it's antiquated and out dated. People might agree with you but as a matter of fairness and equality it's an insidious position to hold.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=Beemnseven;498505][B]I'm for personal freedom and individual rights. If someone finds love or pleasure in the arms of another person who happens to be of the same sex, it should be absolutely, perfectly legal. Same for gay marriage.[/B]

And yes, I do enjoy unravelling the logic of those with whom I disagree.[/quote]

amen, live and let live

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=BleedBurgundy;498502]So no one gets thrown in jail? Hmmmmm, could've sworn I said something to that effect.[/quote]

Do you, or do you not believe gay marriage should be illegal?

If you think it should be legal, then I officially take back my statement.

But if you do think it should be illegal, then you have to be prepared to support the idea that people should be thrown in jail if they disobey the law. Otherwise, what's the purpose of laws?

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=Mattyk72;498503]Honestly, what sort of exposure to gay people have you had in your lifetime? Just curious. Any good friends or family?[/quote]

I was purposefully trying to avoid the "I'm not racist, I have black friends" kind of argument.

Since you asked, I had a friend in High School who was gay and I knew quite a few gay/lesbian folks while I was in the Navy, both service members and citizens of Iceland/Italy where I lived. I also currently work with a few people who are out, who knows how many that aren't. I would honestly classify them as working relationships and acquaintances more than close friends.

Oh, I forgot to add, I used to date a girl who lived in Greenwich Village in NYC. Got plenty of exposure there.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=BleedBurgundy;498502]So no one gets thrown in jail? Hmmmmm, could've sworn I said something to that effect.[/quote]

Oh, people can go jail. If a court clerk issues a marriage license to a gay couple they to jail.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=Beemnseven;498509]Do you, or do you not believe gay marriage should be illegal?

If you think it should be legal, then I officially take back my statement.

But if you do think it should be illegal, then you have to be prepared to support the idea that people should be thrown in jail if they disobey the law. Otherwise, what's the purpose of laws?[/quote]

In the scenario you present, the ones who would be breaking the law are those that are issuing the marriage licenses, i.e. government officials who are making a clear choice to disobey the laws they are sworn to obey. So in that instance, the officials would deserve some sort of punishment, what sort I have no desire to quantify.

[quote=saden1]
Oh, people can go jail. If a court clerk issues a marriage license to a gay couple the to jail.[/quote]

see above.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=BleedBurgundy;498510]I was purposefully trying to avoid the "I'm not racist, I have black friends" kind of argument.

Since you asked, I had a friend in High School who was gay and I knew quite a few gay/lesbian folks while I was in the Navy, both service members and citizens of Iceland/Italy where I lived. I also currently work with a few people who are out, who knows how many that aren't. I would honestly classify them as working relationships and acquaintances more than close friends.[/quote]

I thought it was worth asking simply to understand your point of view better. Now it makes a bit more sense.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=Mattyk72;498508]amen, live and let live[/quote]

I'm always perplexed when ballot measures like these (and for marijuana decriminalization) seem to fail. Especially in California.

David Frum, a conservative writer for National Review said that all you have to do is look at the demographics for those who find the gay issue so important -- it's overwhelmingly over the age of 40.

One day, the tide will turn.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

The real argument here is not that anyone goes to jail but the denial of services available to heterosexuals to homosexuals based on the belief that the moral fabrics of our culture would be endangered if we did not.

You will note that this is the same argument used throughout history to oppress and discriminate against certain groups.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=Beemnseven;498516]I'm always perplexed when ballot measures like these (and for marijuana decriminalization) seem to fail. Especially in California.

David Frum, a conservative writer for National Review said that all you have to do is look at the demographics for those who find the gay issue so important -- it's overwhelmingly over the age of 40.

[B]One day, the tide will turn.[/B][/quote]

Here's hoping, Beemn.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=Mattyk72;498514]I thought it was worth asking simply to understand your point of view better. Now it makes a bit more sense.[/quote]

The real interesting question you should've asked is have I not had the chance to have any close friendships with gay individuals or have I made choices to specifically avoid that scenario. The answer is, I don't know. I get what you're saying, I've never had any true emotional/first hand investment in someone of this persuasion so how can I be sympathetic with their plight? It's not a question I haven't asked myself. But I still come back to my previously stated position.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=saden1;498518]The real argument here is not that anyone goes to jail but the denial of services available to heterosexuals to homosexuals based on the belief that the moral fabrics of our culture would be endangered if we did not.

You will note that this is the same argument used throughout history to oppress and discriminate against certain groups.[/quote]

I won't lie, I can see why someone who is a member of one of those "certain groups," having experienced discrimination would be so averse to any preference denied a given demographic, almost regardless of reason. I hope I worded that well.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

In honor of my 2,500th post, I'd like to say that I love everyone. Tons of love. Even animals, Beemn.

[IMG]http://www.reggie.net/photos/ireland/sligo/carrowkeel/4737304_black_and_white_sheep-600.jpg[/IMG]

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

Saden:

You are absolutely right that the standard of review will usually dictate the outcome of a case involving an alleged violation of the Equal Protection Clause. In a nutshell, there are three standards of review: (1) [B]strict scrutiny[/B] is applied to laws which discriminate on the basis of race or religion; (2) [B]intermediate scrutiny[/B] is applied to laws which discriminate on the basis of gender; and (3) [B]rational basis review [/B]is applied to most every other law which discriminates on some other basis. FYI - the above description isn't very comprehensive and people use different terms for the three levels of review.

By most accounts, laws prohibiting same sex marriage are subject to rational basis review, which is the least exacting standard of review. In order to find that legislation does not pass rational basis review, the court must find that the law cannot be supported by ANY [U][B]conceivable[/B][/U] justification. So, if it is at all conceivable that gay marriage could adversely affect society in ANY way, bans on gay marriage will survive rational basis review. Some courts have started to give rational basis review some teeth, but by and large rational basis review sets an exceedingly low bar.

In fairness to BleedBurgundy, he never said homosexuals to who try to get married should be tossed in jail and, as he pointed out, laws barring gay marriage do not criminalize attempts by homosexuals to get married. Instead, they deny same sex couples the right to have their unions recognized by the state and to have access to the rights associated with such recognition. BleedBurgundy is also entitled to his opinion that homosexuality is immoral. I personally think that point of view is rooted is fear and intolerance and is antiquated and Talibanesque, but to each his own.

BB:

Polls show that same sex marriage bans are going to go the way of T-Rex within the next few years. Whereas people over 40 tend to oppose gay marriage in overwhelming numbers, the opposite is true for people under 40. So, citing support for gay marriage bans is a bit of a double-edged sword.

I would also like to ask you why you think same sex couples should be barred from adopting kids. Keep in mind that thousands upon thousands of kids are waiting to be adopted and many of them will never have families to call their own. That you would prefer a kid to never having any family whatsoever in his/her entire life to having a same sex couple as parents is breathtaking in its heartlessness.

Finally, aside from saying that homosexuality is unnatural, you haven't advanced a single argument as to how same sex marriage is bad for society. People do a lot of things that are unnatural. We take medicines to alleviate sicknesses, we drive cars to avoid long walks and we fly in airplanes to travel across continents, but that doesn't make Advil, Ford and Northwest Airlines harbingers of the collapse of society. You can say it just "feels" wrong, but that doesn't really cut it. I can articulate many reasons why murder, robbery, rape, etc. are wrong. I can't really articulate why I like the color green. To me, the reasons you've expressed for thinking homosexuality is wrong sound a lot like my attempts to explain why I like the color green.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

If only we [URL="http://www.christianparty.net/adulterylaws.htm"]enforced adultly laws[/URL] we would have happier couples and less devoice in our culture. Got to love the Utah law. How far do you go? Where do you draw the line?

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

BleedBurgundy:

I hope you take this in good fun, but I think it's kind of funny that the guy with boobs in his signature is talking about how allowing homosexuals to commit to each other for life is against common "decency."