Re: blow it up
 

[quote=SouperMeister;511996]The biggest problem of the Snyder era is the lack of continuity with the exception of the Gibbs 2.0 years. Blowing it up again just sets us back another year where we start with new system, and presumably many new players. We have some nice pieces to build upon, but are woefully lacking on both the O and D lines. [B] As disappointed as I am, I want to see Zorn remain, and the team continue to learn how to run the WCO, which typically takes 2-3 years before everyone is on the same page and running like clockwork.[/B] Blowing it up now would be the immature, pre-Gibbs approach that Snyder took nearly every season. Continuity is key, regardless of how we feel today.[/quote]

Good post. I completely agree with everything you said. Patience can be hard but the rewards can be great. Lets give it another year and see the improvements before we give up.

Re: blow it up
 

A couple of points:

1) I am not as down or as up on JC as some people, but to say you would possibly rather have him then Big Ben or Palmer (when healthy) is an ignorant, at best, statement.

2) The 'Skins do not have above average offensive weapons. They have one truly good, maybe great, receiver, a great running back, and a good to great TE, none of which really matters b/c the o-line is a revolving door. Add to this the rest of the receivers who would not be 3rd receivers on good teams, and the result is what you see.

3) At 6-2, everyone was optimistic, and rightfully so, sadly though, if you looked at the 'Skins' point differential through those games it was only +20. A stat like that generally does not lie, and points more to a .500 team (what the 'Skins are right now) than a 10 or 11 win team (which they will obviously not be). Remembering back to '05, when the team had to go 5-0 to make the playoffs, things looked bleak, but I do remember one prognosticator pointing to the 'Skins' point differential before that run (inflated to a large degree by the blowout of the 49ers that year) as showing that the 'Skins were primed for playoff push. The point is this, even though that was one game, it showed the potential for offensive explosion, which we later saw; this year, the 'Skins had none of those games, even though they played a slew of teams that were probably just as bad as the '05 Niners.

4) I have thought about this a lot today, and I think Zorn should get one more season. That being said, I fully understand why some people want him gone. This team has regressed after the hot start. As pointed out above, this is not a case of team seeming to turn the corner after a slow start w/ a rookie head coach. The main fears coming into this season about Zorn were the lack of play-calling experience and the lack of game day decision making. Both fears have been proven true, and today showed both. The decision to run Sellars 2 straight times, at least once w/ a 3 tight end set, (so that's why we drafted Fred Davis!) defies belief. As a side note, if I were Zorn, I would talk to Sellars and say "Mike, you're great at hurdling people at midfield, but we're not paying you to jump at the goal line, run over someone damn it." Then to challenge the fumble in a tight game, where timeouts are precious was asinine, not to mention that heinous sequence after the long Rock run back at the end of the game. Throw it in the damn end zone 3 straight plays or just kick a field goal on first down.

Re: blow it up
 

[quote=Rock Your Face;512191]1) I am not as down or as up on JC as some people, but to say you would possibly rather have him then Big Ben or Palmer (when healthy) is an ignorant, at best, statement.[/quote]Ignorant, though, would imply that I can't back it up because I'm uninformed, which is not true. I'm bullish on Campbell, but Palmer was and Ben is having a horrific year with weak offensive lines. Campbell's OL is a little bit better, and he has continued to develop.

Roethlisberger and Palmer have both enjoyed better seasons than Campbell's best year, obviously, but their 2008s have been worse than Campbell's worst season (2006). Given that Campbell should continue to develop, I don't think it's a stretch at all to say he's better than those guys. I don't know how good Palmer can be in the future, but it's been two years since we were talking about him in the elite category, and if he can't reach those levels again, I'm confident that JC will have a better career than Palmer will.

Re: blow it up
 

[quote=HoosForCooley;511981]Here is how I feel, I have been a life long 30 year Redskins fan and UVA fan. I have been watching mediocre football for almost half my life. I think we need a few core changes.

1. Coach. I know I will get crushed for this but we need someone with emotion. Someone who reminds these guys that they are playing a tough sport and not just a paycheck.

2. DEPTH! Look at these other teams, they have fresh guys who can come in and make plays. We have Portis and Santana but literally it stops there. Not one capable backup.

3. Some sort of line. Campbell is a fine QB, but right now he is looking around and rushing because he basically has no time to get rid of the ball. He has regressed this because he is basically a tackling dummy for the other team.

We are an old tired team. Its time to drop Vinny and get a real GM in here. He plays real football like it is a game of madden. Signing veterans and trading for older player with draft picks. We are basically an emotional roller coaster.[/quote]

I agree with you. The skins problem is they lack depth and are old. All teams have to do is take Portis and Moss out of the game and then you have no other options. Cooley hasn't really been able to be used this year because he has to spend so much time help blocking.

Look at a team like the Giants. The don't miss a beat when their star DE, RB, and WR have been out of games. The skins are not that type of team.

Re: blow it up
 

[quote=SOUL-SKINS;511906]Amen......All these fools who think Zorn and Campbell are the answer are ****ed up in the head. Bill Cowher should be the coach next year. Why waste any more time with these medicore players and coaches. Betts, ARE , Suisham, Campbell, Washington, Smoot, Plac, Thrash, Jansen, Rabach..........let me just stop right here, take a deep breath and walk away from my computer. Sorry for anyone who wasted time reading this.[/quote]

There is no way Cowher will come here to have his authority undercut and his players working for the owner. Cowher doesnt operate the way the Skins do and he never will.

Re: blow it up
 

[quote=SOUL-SKINS;512022]You honestly think Campbell is or will be an elite QB in the NFL. Wow.
Jake has battled injuries this year by the way and yes he is having average season but he took his team to the ****ing Super Bowl and a Conference Championship game by his 5th year. This is Campbell's 4th year. So how is JC better. Please explain why. You seem to have all the answers. Not to mention the Panthers are 11-3 this year with Jake at Qb.[/quote]

No one saying JC is better. The real point is there are teams who have had horrible QB play this season and are going to the playoffs. Steelers, Ravens, Titans, Panthers, and even the Vikings. These teams are more talented than the skins especially on the defensive side.

Yes QBs like Eli and Jake won superbowl in their 4th/5th year, but look at those teams they won a superbowl with. Eli played horrible in the regular season year, but the team still made the playoffs. The skins could have Tom Brady on the team and they will not win the superbowl. I think going the playoffs last year gave a false impression that this team is good. Even with Collins at the helm the team couldn't get out of the first round. The Seattle game last season should have been an eye open to show that the skins problems are so much deeper than who is playing under center.

You can start Brennan next year, but the end results will be the same if the skins don't do some serious upgrades in the offseason.

Re: blow it up
 

[quote=redskinsgirl;512210]No one saying JC is better. The real point is there are teams who have had horrible QB play this season and are going to the playoffs. Steelers, Ravens, Titans, Panthers, and even the Vikings. These teams are more talented than the skins especially on the defensive side.

Yes QBs like Eli and Jake won superbowl in their 4th/5th year, but look at those teams they won a superbowl with. Eli played horrible in the regular season year, but the team still made the playoffs. The skins could have Tom Brady on the team and they will not win the superbowl. I think going the playoffs last year gave a false impression that this team is good. Even with Collins at the helm the team couldn't get out of the first round. The Seattle game last season should have been an eye open to show that the skins problems are so much deeper than who is playing under center.

You can start Brennan next year, but the end results will be the same if the skins don't do some serious upgrades in the offseason.[/quote]


Look at the Dolphins. They were terrible last year. What's different, they now have a capable QB that gets the job done and are now 9-5. The Skins do need upgrades and the most important place is QB. JC doesnt have it. The Skins have to find a pro style QB that gets the ball out and can make quick decisions.

Re: blow it up
 

[quote=irish;512211]Look at the Dolphins. They were terrible last year. What's different, they now have a capable QB that gets the job done and are now 9-5. The Skins do need upgrades and the most important place is QB. JC doesnt have it. The Skins have to find a pro style QB that gets the ball out and can make quick decisions.[/quote]

Do you actually think Pennington is the sole reason they are all sudden good???

Look how the Dolphins approached the draft compared to the skins. The choose to upgrade their line vs. drafting receivers and punters. That the major difference.

Look at NO, GB, and the SD. All have outstanding QBs, but are sitting at home in January just like skins.

Re: blow it up
 

[quote=redskinsgirl;512213]Do you actually think Pennington is the sole reason they are all sudden good???

Look how the Dolphins approached the draft compared to the skins. The choose to upgrade their line vs. drafting receivers and punters. That the major difference.

Look at NO, GB, and the SD. All have outstanding QBs, but are sitting at home in January just like skins.[/quote]

The sole reason, no. A big part of it, yes. They do approach the draft better than the Skins (nobody approaches the draft worse than the Skins) but 1 draft just isnt enough time for the kind of turn around they have had this year.

There are plenty of teams with good QB staying home but you gotta have a good QB to get there and the Skins dont have one.

Re: blow it up
 

[quote=irish;512215]The sole reason, no. A big part of it, yes. They do approach the draft better than the Skins (nobody approaches the draft worse than the Skins) but 1 draft just isnt enough time for the kind of turn around they have had this year.

There are plenty of teams with good QB staying home but you gotta have a good QB to get there and the Skins dont have one.[/quote]

Do you really??? Giant won the superbowl with Eli. (Eli was horrible regular season, he was actually worse than JC) Raven won a superbowl with Dilfer.

Kerry Collins isn't a good QB. Big Ben has played horrible this year(due to oline issues) Ferrotte/Taravis are not better than JC.

Btw did the Jets make the playoffs last season with Pennington????
Is he really a difference maker?? If the Parcells didn't do a major overhaul in the offseason the Dolphins would still be looking at 1-15.

JC may not be a Brady or McNabb( QBs who can win with less talent), but more like E. Manning were he needs a good team around him to win.

The skins can't really afford to draft a QB in the offseason, so right now he is the only choice.

Re: blow it up
 

[quote=GTripp0012;512084]Delhomme is a turnover machine. He's got 11 INTs this year, and he's done it against very soft defenses. His TD production is basically just Jason Campbell's but with the propensity to turn the ball over more often.

Yes, Delhomme has had better seasons than this. However, Campbell's best seasons are ahead of him, and he's doing better this year with less than Delhomme.

I don't think he'll ever be Manning/Brady/Romo type good, but I'd take him over Roethlisberger, McNabb, maybe even Carson Palmer. If he played in the AFC East, he'd be the best or second best QB right now.[/quote]

better the big ben? hello. JC is the slowest release of all the QB right now , and having that slow release (add to that cannot read defense fast) is a bad habit that will not work in zorn's offense. I agree that OL can be improve next year. but having a slow release is still bad habit.

Re: blow it up
 

It's really dumb to think that this is somehow Campbell's fault. Right now we're getting mediocre play from all over, the line, the receivers, the backs, and that all impacts his game. QBs and head coaches always get too much blame when things are going bad, and too much credit when things are going well. There's much more under the surface than how Campbell is playing, and under the circumstances I don't think he's playing that bad. To give up on him now after one year in this offense is jumping the gun. We need consistency and changing QB again is not going to help us with that.

Re: blow it up
 

[quote=redskinsgirl;512213]Do you actually think Pennington is the sole reason they are all sudden good???

Look how the Dolphins approached the draft compared to the skins. The choose to upgrade their line vs. drafting receivers and punters. That the major difference.

Look at NO, GB, and the SD. All have outstanding QBs, but are sitting at home in January just like skins.[/quote]

Bingo. JC may not be the answer. BUT, he is not the problem right now. The problem is, the team stinks. The talent is not there. That is Synderatto's fault and as long as these two continue to run the operation, don't expect anything more than an ocassional 10-6 season with a one and done playoff berth, then back tot he medicotuiy that has embraced the team since nyder bought the franchise in 2000. Even the most die hard Snyder defenders have got to be starting to ask questions on what has been accomplished since he was the onwer with no profesional GM. If 10-6, but most of the time 9-7 to 7-9 is OK for you, well, Snyder has been successful.

Re: blow it up
 

Zorn is the isssue, he can not adjust for some reason. He has not adjusted his scheme yet. The nfl caught up with what we were doing and Zorn has not done anything different. Our defense keeps adjusting every game. Bengals scored 17 points early, 3 points after that. Zorn needs to take a lesson from Blache on adjusting.

Re: blow it up
 

[quote=lemelgibson;512248]Zorn is the isssue, he can not adjust for some reason. He has not adjusted his scheme yet. The nfl caught up with what we were doing and Zorn has not done anything different. Our defense keeps adjusting every game. Bengals scored 17 points early, 3 points after that. Zorn needs to take a lesson from Blache on adjusting.[/quote]

Zorn is A issue. But not THE issue. THE issue is Snyderrato. Taking burgundy and gold glasses off and taking a real hard look at this roster, it just way too short on real talent. We are not even close to being in the same league with teams like Pittsburgh, Indy, Giants, Titans, etc...just not close.

Re: blow it up
 

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I believe we are pretty close to "blowing it up." Blache and Buges may retire and Zorn, Sherman Smith, and Danny Smith are under heavy fire.

Worst of all, a look at our personnel reveals serious deficiencies. Along the offensive line, Pete Kendall is a free agent, Jon Jansen and Casey Rabach are liabilities and should be replaced as soon as possible, Chad Rinehart has yet to dress for a single game, Heyer isn't a starter IMO, and we don't have anyone else who looks like he can become a solid starter. In short, Chris Samuels is our only solid player and he's over 30.

At quarterback, Jason looks like a very good player when he has protection and healthy weapons and a mediocre player when things are going badly. Todd Collins has a year or two left in the tank, if he's still on the roster in 2009 and 2010. Colt Brennan is an unknown quantity (despite the fact that so many amateur scouts believe he is Jesus Christ Jr).

At wide receiver, Moss is a very good #1 when completely healthy and an average #2 when he's not totally healthy. Unfortunately, he's rarely 100% healthy. ARE is a #3 receiver. Thomas has been unproductive. Kelly can't sniff the field. Thrash is done. For people who want a "true #1," how do you intend to snag him? Waste a draft pick on a guy who won't produce for a few years when we need that pick for linemen? Go out in free agency and waste dollars on a guy when we need that cash for linemen? Give Thomas and Kelly more time.

The defensive line is a mess. Jason Taylor and Cornelius Griffin need to go. Andre Carter is inconsistent. Anthony Montgomery has yet to show his full potential. Kedric Golston is a nice backup, but I don't see him as a full-time starter.

The linebacker corps is a mess. London Fletcher is a stud and I should never have doubted him, but how much longer can he play at this level, 1 or 2 years? Marcus Washington is gone. Rocky McIntosh got benched for Fincher. HB Blades isn't a starter.

We have holes at cornerback. Shawn Springs needs to go. He is injured far too often and isn't worth the money he is paid. Fred Smoot is awful. I love the guy, but he can't play this game anymore. I would bet money that DeAngelo Hall is gone in the offseason, unless we seriously overpay for his services. The only solid, fairly young corner on our roster is Carlos Rogers. Beyond him, we've got big problems.

Re: blow it up
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;512251]I can't believe I'm saying this, but I believe we are pretty close to "blowing it up." Blache and Buges may retire and Zorn, Sherman Smith, and Danny Smith are under heavy fire.

Worst of all, a look at our personnel reveals serious deficiencies. Along the offensive line, Pete Kendall is a free agent, Jon Jansen and Casey Rabach are liabilities and should be replaced as soon as possible, Chad Rinehart has yet to dress for a single game, Heyer isn't a starter IMO, and we don't have anyone else who looks like he can become a solid starter. In short, Chris Samuels is our only solid player and he's over 30.

At quarterback, Jason looks like a very good player when he has protection and healthy weapons and a mediocre player when things are going badly. Todd Collins has a year or two left in the tank, if he's still on the roster in 2009 and 2010. Colt Brennan is an unknown quantity (despite the fact that so many amateur scouts believe he is Jesus Christ Jr).

At wide receiver, Moss is a very good #1 when completely healthy and an average #2 when he's not totally healthy. Unfortunately, he's rarely 100% healthy. ARE is a #3 receiver. Thomas has been unproductive. Kelly can't sniff the field. Thrash is done. For people who want a "true #1," how do you intend to snag him? Waste a draft pick on a guy who won't produce for a few years when we need that pick for linemen? Go out in free agency and waste dollars on a guy when we need that cash for linemen? Give Thomas and Kelly more time.

The defensive line is a mess. Jason Taylor and Cornelius Griffin need to go. Andre Carter is inconsistent. Anthony Montgomery has yet to show his full potential. Kedric Golston is a nice backup, but I don't see him as a full-time starter.

The linebacker corps is a mess. London Fletcher is a stud and I should never have doubted him, but how much longer can he play at this level, 1 or 2 years? Marcus Washington is gone. Rocky McIntosh got benched for Fincher. HB Blades isn't a starter.

We have holes at cornerback. Shawn Springs needs to go. He is injured far too often and isn't worth the money he is paid. Fred Smoot is awful. I love the guy, but he can't play this game anymore. I would bet money that DeAngelo Hall is gone in the offseason, unless we seriously overpay for his services. The only solid, fairly young corner on our roster is Carlos Rogers. Beyond him, we've got big problems.[/quote]

Nice post. A sad reality. This roster is not as good as alot of fans here want to believe, it just isn't.

Re: blow it up
 

[quote=SOUL-SKINS;511928]GTripp, we all agree something must change. Cowher is proven, boring but proven. I like Zorn as much as anybody but I think he is more of a coordinator. As far as Campbell goes i just think there is alot better out there.
We are all pissed off right now. I live for this shit. I wake up every Sunday morning like its Christmas for kids. It ****ing breaks my heart when we lose. I just want to win.[/quote]


I don't know who should go. I don't know who should stay. I'm not sure if its coaching cause we have been through two head coach's, two different co-ordinators, and three different offensive scheme's in Gibbs, Saunders and Zorn. Could it be the players who for the most part have not changed in 5-6 yrs? Same players, same old "blue collar" players? I don't know....maybe it's ownership. Maybe it's everyone trying too hard including the owner. What I don't like to see is Zorn not making adjustments. He seems to think putting the same offensive plays on the field every week will work and blaming it on "execution." Perhaps its due to injuries, players abilities, or lack of knowlege of his scheme but it ticks me off that for what ever reason other teams seem to know what he's going to do and how he's going to do it. He's not catching other teams off guard. Yes,he will throw in a trick play here and there but we should not have to resort to trick plays to score. His offense does not resemble Seattles, or the Eagles, or the Bucs, or anyone. It has no identity. We can't run probably due to injuries. We can't pass....why? maybe injuries on the line but other then that why? We have two second rounders who should be making strides. Should be helping the team. Don't say learning curve please. Look at the other WR's and how they are doing on their teams. Fairly well I believe. So did we pick the wrong WR's? or is it the position coach not training well enough?

I know it takes more then a year to learn an offense. No problem. But to incorperate the two new WR very little when that's what we needed in the off season and knew we needed taller WR to help out and not use them is beyond me. If everyone knew there was a learning curve of about 2 yrs then rookies were not going to help us. Why didn't we look at some of the vetrans that were available ...ie CJ...although he was taken off the table, Williams who went to Dallas. We needed one tall player who was a difference maker and a WR from the draft for our future.

Re: blow it up
 

[quote=PennSkinsFan;512253]Nice post. A sad reality. This roster is not as good as alot of fans here want to believe, it just isn't.[/quote]


.......and thats because we are always looking for the "blue chip", "blue collar" player. we have no one who is a professional at locating talent. Getting us true talent throught he draft. ...or is it more we have no one who is capable of training the new talent to due their jobs?

like someone else said....one draft will not change the dimension of this team. We need several drafts. and starting with both lines is going to be very important. It's ok to have one or two "blue chip, blue collar" players on the team to fill in on a game by game basis but not accross the whole line. On both sides of the ball. We have second rate players playing second rate ball and injuries have topped it off.

Re: blow it up
 

When zorn was hired i wondered (on here too before the season started) if JC doesnt play well if zorn gets the chance, like all new coaches, to hand pick his qb and be judged on the success of his hand picked guy.

fact is (well ok its not really fact) JC does not have the skills zorn needs in a qb to run his offense. Zorn didnt pick him, tried to make a go of it and will try again next year with JC, BUT at some point (maybe 2010 draft) zorn gets to pick his guy that will determine zorn's success as a coach. we cant judge zorn or his scheme when he has an orange but needs an apple. (<<<probaly the most insightful football iq sentence i have ever made!)

let zorn go grocery shopping for his qb before we say the man cant cook.

go skins!!

Re: blow it up
 

[quote=SBXVII;512267].......and thats because we are always looking for the "blue chip", "blue collar" player. we have no one who is a professional at locating talent. Getting us true talent throught he draft. ...or is it more we have no one who is capable of training the new talent to due their jobs?

like someone else said....one draft will not change the dimension of this team. We need several drafts. and starting with both lines is going to be very important. It's ok to have one or two "blue chip, blue collar" players on the team to fill in on a game by game basis but not accross the whole line. On both sides of the ball. We have second rate players playing second rate ball and injuries have topped it off.[/quote]

i mostly agree with you and alot of what is being said here by reasonable minds but have we done that bad in drafting in the 1st or 2nd round? what O lineman should we have drafted over ST, rogers or landry? only poor high draft choices weve had have been taylor jacobs (i wanted mike doss so you have to question anything i think), ramsey (with qbs you take your chances and keep taking them till you find your man) and possibly JC. am i missing some 1st or 2nd round pick that has been a bust for us? (rocky maybe?) should we have drafted some O lineman over cooley in the 3rd?

go skins!!

Re: blow it up
 

how do we move forward? how do we evoke change?
What "change" needs to be done? Personally, I think we need to limit the owner's influence on the team (to the extent possible) this includes getting him out of the draft room, and removing his pal Vinny Cerrato. We also need a GM. We also need better scouting (or to listen to the ones we have).

We as fans need to take a stand. We cannot tolerate more of the same...
we've seen this show before, the ending is decidedly disappointing.

We've got one more home game- how will we voice our disapproval? I'm not suggesting booing, but there should certainly be a COORDINATED EFFORT to voice our displeasure.
Maybe we should ALL forgo redskin colors and wear black (signifying both the death of the season and hopefully the figurative death of cerrato). Ideas?

Re: blow it up
 

[quote=over the mountain;512275]i mostly agree with you and alot of what is being said here by reasonable minds but have we done that bad in drafting in the 1st or 2nd round? what O lineman should we have drafted over ST, rogers or landry? only poor high draft choices weve had have been taylor jacobs (i wanted mike doss so you have to question anything i think), ramsey (with qbs you take your chances and keep taking them till you find your man) and possibly JC. am i missing some 1st or 2nd round pick that has been a bust for us? (rocky maybe?) should we have drafted some O lineman over cooley in the 3rd?

go skins!![/quote]

A fair point, but, you draft Merriman instead of Rogers and you re-sign Ryan Clark so you don't have to spend a pick on Landry. Jacobs was obviously a joke, and the three 2nd round picks this year have been awful. You want receivers? Fine, just don't waste a 2nd round pick on a 3rd damn tight end when its arguably already your 2nd deepest position (after RB).

This is the whole point w/ the 'Skins, individually, each move does not look that bad when viewed in a vacuum. But when you look at the big picture, you constantly see the 'Skins having to make moves that are solely to compensate for past mistakes, instead of moving forward or building depth. Some examples:

(1) The previously mentioned drafting of Landry, which was necessitated by the terrible signing of Archuletta, instead of re-signing Clark.

(2) Not using a draft pick this year on a DE, when there were plenty available. What happens? Daniels rips up his knee and we ship out a 2nd rounder for Taylor.

(3) Signing Brandon Lloyd, so we then have to spend 2 picks on receivers.

Re: blow it up
 

I think Zorn is in over his head as a HC and that he has lost the hearts and minds of many of the players. There is a lot of circumstantial evidence to support this POV.

Nevertheless, I don't blame Zorn for anything because I feel that Dan Snyder and Vinnie Cerrato took too much of a risk by elevating Zorn to a position too far above the level of Zorn's previous experience. Zorn as the OC and QB coach working for a more qualified HC may have worked out fine for everyone.

I believe that the biggest problem we have in building a contender is the tendency of management to overpay, both in dollars and draft picks, for players who are too old to build with at the time we get them. Management has shown themselves to be infatuated with big names and to be prone to panic and overpay for older veterans when there is an injury to a starter. This, in turn, has lead to the loss of good young starters and the lack of quality young depth acquired via the draft.

For example, looking back, perhaps we should have paid the big bucks for Derrick Dockery. This would not be a case of 20-20 hindsight if it had been the policy and practice of the organization to retain young stars who are free agents versus signing older big names in free agency.

We have two very good examples of both sides of this policy that occurred this season. We have Jason Taylor for whom we paid 2nd and 6th round draft picks knowing that we would get a maximum of 2 years service out of him. Bad idea unless he's going to lead you to the Super Bowl. On the other hand, we have DeAngelo Hall, a young talented player we got for next to nothing because he was released by a senile old man in Oakland. Now, that's a great pickup.

I think that the examples of Taylor and Hall illustrate that there is either the lack of a philosophical foundation to the management's dealings or the lack of self-discipline on the part of management to stick to the plan.

I don't think that Dan Snyder and Vinnie Cerrato necessarily need to step out of the player acqusition picture, but I do think that they need to decide on a philosophy of doing business and stick with it. I also think that they need to partner with a strong-minded, experienced coach whose opinions they respect in order to get it done.

Re: blow it up
 

[quote=KI Skins Fan;512304][B]I think Zorn is in over his head as a HC[/B] and that he has lost the hearts and minds of many of the players. There is a lot of circumstantial evidence to support this POV.

[/quote]
Which all goes back tot he same exact problem that, regardless of what we are talking about, centers in on.

Who hired Zorn for this position. Who's decision was it. It took many int he NFL by surprise, why?

Let's face it, we have big, big problems, and there names are DANNY AND VINNY. They are simply not competent to run a professional football franchise and win at the same time.

Let me ask you this --- how much better are we now than we were 8 years ago when Snyder took over? What have we won? How have we competed?

Re: blow it up
 

[quote=KI Skins Fan;512304]I think Zorn is in over his head as a HC and that he has lost the hearts and minds of many of the players. There is a lot of circumstantial evidence to support this POV.

Nevertheless, I don't blame Zorn for anything because I feel that Dan Snyder and Vinnie Cerrato took too much of a risk by elevating Zorn to a position too far above the level of Zorn's previous experience. Zorn as the OC and QB coach working for a more qualified HC may have worked out fine for everyone.

I believe that the biggest problem we have in building a contender is the tendency of management to overpay, both in dollars and draft picks, for players who are too old to build with at the time we get them. Management has shown themselves to be infatuated with big names and to be prone to panic and overpay for older veterans when there is an injury to a starter. This, in turn, has lead to the loss of good young starters and the lack of quality young depth acquired via the draft.

For example, looking back, perhaps we should have paid the big bucks for Derrick Dockery. This would not be a case of 20-20 hindsight if it had been the policy and practice of the organization to retain young stars who are free agents versus signing older big names in free agency.

We have two very good examples of both sides of this policy that occurred this season. We have Jason Taylor for whom we paid 2nd and 6th round draft picks knowing that we would get a maximum of 2 years service out of him. Bad idea unless he's going to lead you to the Super Bowl. On the other hand, we have DeAngelo Hall, a young talented player we got for next to nothing because he was released by a senile old man in Oakland. Now, that's a great pickup.

I think that the examples of Taylor and Hall illustrate that there is either the lack of a philosophical foundation to the management's dealings or the lack of self-discipline on the part of management to stick to the plan.

I don't think that Dan Snyder and Vinnie Cerrato necessarily need to step out of the player acqusition picture, but I do think that they need to decide on a philosophy of doing business and stick with it. I also think that they need to partner with a strong-minded, experienced coach whose opinions they respect in order to get it done.[/quote]

good well thought out points there KI skins fan. welcome aboard, you should have been here about 8 weeks ago when we were partying with the music up. now its the morning after, the house is thrashed and theres only a few stragglers sleeping on the couch.

Re: blow it up
 

[quote=gabe1984;511904]Get rid of all the Miami Hurricanes.[/quote]

Trade for a roster of ALL Miami Hurricanes. Of course, since U players are the best in the league at many positions, the salary cap would prevent this unless we get all of them on board to play for cheap as some kind of college reunion tour.

Another possible drawback, who will play QB? Ken Dorsey? Gino Torretta? Hey........Vinny Testeverde!

Re: blow it up
 

[quote=KI Skins Fan;512304]

I don't think that Dan Snyder and Vinnie Cerrato necessarily need to step out of the player acqusition picture, but I do think that they need to decide on a philosophy of doing business and stick with it. I also think that they need to partner with a strong-minded, experienced coach whose opinions they respect in order to get it done.[/quote]

I agree w/ everything you say here except this last part. The sample size with Danny and Vinny is large enough to know that they will not change their ways. The only time there seemed to be shift in philosophy was under Gibbs, and that was b/c Snyder idolized Gibbs.

This year's rookie class, w/ the exception of Horton, has been beyond terrible; and let's be honest, 7th round picks are a complete crap shoot (Gimbran Hamden anyone?). Then Vinny goes and compounds the mistake by (1) keeping all them on the roster and (2) not placing Kelly on IR, which would have allowed the Skins to either keep another receiver or not cut Leigh Torrence when they signed Hall. If this were the first of Vinny's screw-ups we could forgive it as just one crappy draft, but the truth is it's just more of an on-going pattern.

Look, it's Snyder's team, if to him owning a winning team is not worth it unless he can win his way (calling the shots football wise), that's his decision and he certainly has a right to make it. It's just a shame that we the fans have to be subjected to it.

Re: blow it up
 

[quote=Rock Your Face;512380]I agree w/ everything you say here except this last part. The sample size with Danny and Vinny is large enough to know that they will not change their ways. The only time there seemed to be shift in philosophy was under Gibbs, and that was b/c Snyder idolized Gibbs.

This year's rookie class, w/ the exception of Horton, has been beyond terrible; and let's be honest, 7th round picks are a complete crap shoot (Gimbran Hamden anyone?). Then Vinny goes and compounds the mistake by (1) keeping all them on the roster and (2) not placing Kelly on IR, which would have allowed the Skins to either keep another receiver or not cut Leigh Torrence when they signed Hall. If this were the first of Vinny's screw-ups we could forgive it as just one crappy draft, but the truth is it's just more of an on-going pattern.

Look, it's Snyder's team, if to him owning a winning team is not worth it unless he can win his way (calling the shots football wise), that's his decision and he certainly has a right to make it. It's just a shame that we the fans have to be subjected to it.[/quote]

It's hard for me to argue that Snyder and Cerrato can change their ways. Nevertheless, there is a part of me that desperately hopes that they can because I don't think that either one of them is going anywhere.

I think that you're judging this draft class too soon, though. Sometimes it takes two or three seasons for a player to reach his potential. Even the great Art Monk didn't do much until his fourth season.

Re: blow it up
 

[quote=Buster;512347]Trade for a roster of ALL Miami Hurricanes. Of course, since U players are the best in the league at many positions, the salary cap would prevent this unless we get all of them on board to play for cheap as some kind of college reunion tour.

Another possible drawback, who will play QB? Ken Dorsey? Gino Torretta? Hey........Vinny Testeverde![/quote]

better than the washington gators from years back!!

go skins!!

Re: blow it up
 

[quote=KI Skins Fan;512394]

I think that you're judging this draft class too soon, though. Sometimes it takes two or three seasons for a player to reach his potential. Even the great Art Monk didn't do much until his fourth season.[/quote]

That is a fair point, but early round picks (1-3) are expected to be eventual starters in the NFL and certainly are expected to contribute more as rookies then this group has. I hope that in 3 or 4 years I am wrong about Thomas, Kelly, and Davis, but I doubt I will be.

Re: blow it up
 

There's lots of work to do here, people.

My feeling is that JC is not one of the big worries. The o-line, the D-line, the LBs are all more pressing needs. That's a HUGE problem. JC may not be one of those guys who wins games single handedly, but he can do the job with a good cast of supporting characters, IMO.

Coaches: Zorn gets one more year. He may not have to make the playoffs, but he's got to show real improvement. He needs an experienced WC coordinator to take some of the pressure off, as well. He needs a new o-line coach too, much as I love Buges. There's a clash of philosophies there, I think. (Not that Buges hasn't done all that's been asked of him. He has. It's just that someone really versed in the WC makes more sense.) Blache: give him another year, but that's it, and please give him some linemen! Danny Smith: not sure what he's done to save his job. Get someone new.

Vinny: we're stuck with him for the foreseeable future, I bet. That's the real bummer. Hope he's learned something from the collapse this year. We can only fantasize about a real GM.

Bottom line: there are a few pieces here, but we've got tons of work to do. BUt to all those calling for a total tear-down: there's a salary cap. Plus, other teams want the good players too. It's not Madden. We're stuck with lots of these guys for the next few years. My guess is, in the best case, it's 2-3 years to get better. And that's if everything we do works out and Vinny grows a brain. If not, well, it's going to remain painful.

Re: blow it up
 

[quote=JWsleep;512460]There's lots of work to do here, people.

My feeling is that JC is not one of the big worries. The o-line, the D-line, the LBs are all more pressing needs. That's a HUGE problem. JC may not be one of those guys who wins games single handedly, but he can do the job with a good cast of supporting characters, IMO.

Coaches: Zorn gets one more year. He may not have to make the playoffs, but he's got to show real improvement. He needs an experienced WC coordinator to take some of the pressure off, as well. He needs a new o-line coach too, much as I love Buges. There's a clash of philosophies there, I think. (Not that Buges hasn't done all that's been asked of him. He has. It's just that someone really versed in the WC makes more sense.) Blache: give him another year, but that's it, and please give him some linemen! Danny Smith: not sure what he's done to save his job. Get someone new.

Vinny: we're stuck with him for the foreseeable future, I bet. That's the real bummer. Hope he's learned something from the collapse this year. We can only fantasize about a real GM.

Bottom line: there are a few pieces here, but we've got tons of work to do. BUt to all those calling for a total tear-down: there's a salary cap. Plus, other teams want the good players too. It's not Madden. We're stuck with lots of these guys for the next few years. My guess is, in the best case, it's 2-3 years to get better. And that's if everything we do works out and Vinny grows a brain. If not, well, it's going to remain painful.[/quote]


It has been "it's 2-3 years to get better" mentality for the last freaking twenty years! I am tired of it.

Re: blow it up
 

[quote=Smooter;511910]Everyone just needs to get a grip and realize that we weren't as good as our record showed the beginning of the season. Like everyone else I got my hopes up thinking we were much better than we were. Things have been on the decline the last few weeks, but a coaching change is not the answer right now. Do we seriously want to throw another system into the mix for our team to learn? Of course not. Everyone take a deep breath.[/quote]

what is gay is the fact that you dont hire a guy like gregg williams before you put us all through this. what else did he have to do to prove he was a worthy coach. i am sorry but what is gay is the fact that you cant get promoted even though you have been the only bright spot from a coaching stand point since marty was here. you were the same donkey saying steve spurrier was the answer too, just give him some time....get real man, football coaches are hard to come by, there are those who can lead and those who cant.......seems to me that a 6-10 played harder from gibbs and williams in 04 than a 7-6 team did for jim zorn and blache in 08........if you cant see this then your blind

Re: blow it up
 

[quote=Buster;512347]Trade for a roster of ALL Miami Hurricanes. Of course, since U players are the best in the league at many positions, the salary cap would prevent this unless we get all of them on board to play for cheap as some kind of college reunion tour.

Another possible drawback, who will play QB? Ken Dorsey? Gino Torretta? Hey........Vinny Testeverde![/quote]


Well you could get Big Ben he went to the U of Ohio. Close enough?

Re: blow it up
 

[quote=mredskins;512472]Well you could get Big Ben he went to the U of Ohio. Close enough?[/quote]
I think you meant Miami of Ohio...

Blow it up for what? To wait another 3-5 years for a playoff berth? We're 14 games into Zorn's 1st year. Even Spurrier got a few years before he tucked tail and ran...give Zorn a chance to get players he thinks he can win with before blowing him to smithereens. He's still coaching with Gibbs' stack of players.

Reason to give Zorn a chance? Look what he did for Hasselbeck...he helped mold him into a quality caliber QB. And while the Seahawks are having a shitty year, Seneca Wallace is having a very nice little year for himself (1107 yards, 8 TDs, 1 INT). Not bad for a guy everyone thought would be converted to a WR when he came out of Iowa State.

Re: blow it up
 

^^^ Yes I was trying to be a smart a$$.

Re: blow it up
 

[quote=mredskins;512469]It has been "it's 2-3 years to get better" mentality for the last freaking twenty years! I am tired of it.[/quote]

Who's not? But, like I said, that's the BEST CASE SCENARIO, IMO. Likely as not, as long as Vinny (and an unreformed Danny) are running the show, it'll be longer than 2-3 years.

Re: blow it up
 

I'm willing at this point to go into '09 as a rebuilding year. Cut ties with some of the old, less productive vets like Griffin, Washington, Springs, Taylor, Jansen, Kendall, Smoot, even ARE. What I saw yesterday was an old, slow team with no playmakers on defense and very limited offensive options.

I've been denying the obvious but we are still suffering from the aborted Marty era. We had a chance to recover when Spurrier was hired but screwed that one up. We took a small step forward with Gibbs but didn't really make true progress. I was among the fooled in thinking that since we were a playoff team last year and returned most of the team that we'd be contenders. Wow, was I wrong.

Re: blow it up
 

[quote=Paintrain;512484]I'm willing at this point to go into '09 as a rebuilding year. Cut ties with some of the old, less productive vets like Griffin, Washington, Springs, Taylor, Jansen, Kendall, Smoot, even ARE. What I saw yesterday was an old, slow team with no playmakers on defense and very limited offensive options.

I've been denying the obvious but we are still suffering from the aborted Marty era. We had a chance to recover when Spurrier was hired but screwed that one up. We took a small step forward with Gibbs but didn't really make true progress. I was among the fooled in thinking that since we were a playoff team last year and returned most of the team that we'd be contenders. Wow, was I wrong.[/quote]

im with you a hundred percent..cut the vets bring in the youth