Re: For the Zorn / Campbell Excuse makers...
 

[quote=Hail to the Redskins;512153] and are the only team with the same running system as last year with a stud RB. The excuses about Campbell being "young" and needing to "learn" is a huge load of BS... and Zorn's sole responsibility this year has been Campbell and the passing offense which happens to be the absolute worst facet of the team... anyone??[/quote]

We do not have the same running system. We're using the same [I]terminology[/I] but its not the same system.

Installing a new running game isn't difficult. As far a 'stud' RB goes I would take the combo of Turner/Norwood or McGehee/McLain/Rice over Portis.
Both teams have better offensive lines.

Everyone knows that it takes 2-3 years to master the WCO, so Campbell is ahead of the learning curve.

Re: For the Zorn / Campbell Excuse makers...
 

Listen, JC deserves some blame. The lack of a second receiver deserves blame. The pathetic offensive lien deserves blame. The play calling deserves blame. The Zorn/Portis situation deserves blame. The fact that players quit deserves blame. The fact this team is and not close to playing at a NYG, PITT, level is reality.

But to say it is all JC, or all Zorn, or all this. It is only one thing folks. Vinny Cerrato and Dan Snyder created this team, created this atmosphere. They deserve the blame.

Good bring in a new QB, bring in a new Coach, and what are you going to get? As long as these two idiots are calling the shots, you will have more of the same. This is 8 years of frustration folks, 8 years.

Re: For the Zorn / Campbell Excuse makers...
 

[quote=Hail to the Redskins;512173]Wow... have you not been paying attention this year at all?? I think on a weekly basis it is made fact that our running scheme was COMPLETELY unchanged from last year!! Ignorance?? Really??

You are right about one thing ... [B]THAT running game, which Zorn had nothing to do with (other than deciding NOT to change it), has been the reason we have won at all this year[/B][/quote]

deciding not to change the running game was a good first move by coach zorn.

deciding to pound the ball early in the season (CP led league in carries thru 8 weeks) to give time for the passing offense to come together was a good coaching decision.

the boys coming off a bye week (yeah so were we i know) really came with a gameplan on O and D and neither blache or zorn has made adjustments yet. this is a copy cat league and teams will see what others have done to you that is sucessfull and do it to you until you prove you can stop it. we havent yet and its been 5 weeks now.

IMO our lack of proper personnel moves has hurt us (which is easier said then done thoo):

Our o line has been our bread and butter years past but we still should have started developing young talent to wait in the wings. (some complain about the lack of drafting O line guys in the first 3 rounds. well then we wouldnt have landry, rogers or the late great ST = all great 1st round picks, or even cooley or mcintosh)(also we tried getting davis from the cards awhile back but he signed with the boys)(we let dockery go for the obvious reasons, maybe we shouldnt have)

We have never had a real wrecking ball at or near the line of scrimmage on D. (we tried to get briggs, while hes a great player hes not the wrecking ball of havoc i want)

Our receivers are servicable, not great. we've had these guys for a while now. (we tried with taylor jacobs, ARE and lloyd and that didnt work, now weve tried with our 3 2nd round picks who hopefully will work out)

We dont have an elite qb, not many teams do. Without an elite qb you really need an awesome team around him to be a contender. (weve tried to find him with 2 first round picks this decade in ramsey and JC)

Point is i think we are trying, its just hard. now it is going to be even harder with our bread and butter of an O line on the decline. we really missed our window of success with these guys being in their prime the past 5 years. we tried adding skilled guys around them (portis, moss, cooley) but it just didnt work out. time to rebuild the O line so that we can again look for the right mix of skilled position players to make it work.

rant over sorry about that. sorry to take a "coach zorn" quote and go off.

go skins!!

Re: For the Zorn / Campbell Excuse makers...
 

Another HC/QB change is going to keep this team spinning it's wheels. I really hope we don't go down that route yet again.

Re: For the Zorn / Campbell Excuse makers...
 

[quote=sportscurmudgeon;512184]I want to take exception to one part of the logic here. This argumentation here lays the blame on the offense and says nothing about the defense

Before anyone jumps up and down and screams about the Skins being a "Top 10 defense" this year, understand that stats like that provide comfort only to losing teams. Any team that is 10-4 now and comfortably in the playoffs, is not looking at - nor does it care - where it ranks on total defense.

In [B]THREE[/B] games this year (Cowboys, Ravens, Bengals) the Skins were in position to win/tie the game in the 4th quarter and the opposition took possession of the ball in the opposition's end of the field. What was needed was a "three-and-out"; the Skins could even have lived with giving up a first down and then forcing a punt. But [B]NO...[/B]

In all three games, the opposition offense took the ball and ran off between 12 and 15 plays and ate up most of the clock - - and in the Bengals and Ravens game they scored at the end of that big drive. [Can't recall what happened at the end of the 4th quarter Cowboys' drive when Barber carried the ball about a zillion times in a row.]

The defense - players and coaches but mostly the players - had the ball run down their throats or they gave up a pass over the middle and didn't make a tackle on third and long to allow those drives to continue - - and continue - - and continue.

"Top 10 defenses" make things happen when it really matters; and what they make happen is not allowing a drive to consume 7 minutes of the fourth quarter and end in a score for the other guys.

Oh, by the way, the same Skins defense has been [B]so[/B] good in first quarters recently that in the last three games the Skins have been outscored in the first quarter [B]38-0[/B]. That means the defense has given up [B]six scores in the first quarter[/B] of the last three games. That STINKS!

In the second and third quarters, they don't allow a lot of yards; that's what keeps them in the "Top 10". Whoop - de - damned - dooo!

When it matters - - at the beginning of the game when it is 0-0 on the scorebard and in the fourth quarter when they need a STOP - - the defense has not done the job. You can fawn all over the players and vote for them to go to the Pro Bowl and sniff their jocks, but they haven't gotten the job done when it mattered this season. Deal with it!

Jason Campbell, Clinton Portis - - name your favorite Redskins' offensive player from the past - - can't do a whole lot when they spend half of the fourth quarter sitting on their asses on the sidelines waiting to get the ball. When it matters, this defensive unit has not delivered the goods.

Coaches to blame? Somewhat. Players to blame? More than coaching. The roster of the team itself to blame? Somewhat.

There needs to be a major overhaul to this roster. Of course, that was needed last year too and the overhaul that happened was that the Skins kept all of their draft picks on the roster even though only one of them can play right now. That's not a positive step. And that should give fans the biggest pause...

The roster needs an overhaul - - but do the people in charge of assembling the roster actually know what it needed here and where to look to find pieces to the puzzle to make it better? Recent evidence does not suggest that they do...[/quote]

Thank you! I have been saying this since preseason and people get all upset with me on this sight. Our defensive statistical ranking is smoke and mirrors. Our defense is average to below average at best, but not great.

Your point about keeping players that do not belong just because we drafted them has also has been a huge issue since Snyderratto took over the team. Justin Tyron (4th round) and Durant Brooks (6th round) did not play well enough this summer and preseason to make this roster, but yet they were kept on, while others that were better were discarded. Moves that later were proved to be mistakes. That is an ego issue with Snyderratto. I [B]can not[/B] believe we spent a 4th on Tyron. Swing and a MISS.....

Re: For the Zorn / Campbell Excuse makers...
 

[quote=PennSkinsFan;512247]Listen, JC deserves some blame. The lack of a second receiver deserves blame. The pathetic offensive lien deserves blame. The play calling deserves blame. The Zorn/Portis situation deserves blame. The fact that players quit deserves blame. The fact this team is and not close to playing at a NYG, PITT, level is reality.

But to say it is all JC, or all Zorn, or all this. It is only one thing folks. Vinny Cerrato and Dan Snyder created this team, created this atmosphere. They deserve the blame.

Good bring in a new QB, bring in a new Coach, and what are you going to get? As long as these two idiots are calling the shots, you will have more of the same. This is 8 years of frustration folks, 8 years.[/quote]

the same fans who want zorn and JC fired are the same fans who make threads about danny and vinny not being patient and creating a mess of a franchise. firing zorn this year will only add his name to the list with marty of things danny screwed up . . . are we really encouraging our meddling owner to do another overhaul after 1 year when our biggest collective fan knock on danny is his lack of patience? do you see the irony in this? maybe its just me.

go skins!!

Re: For the Zorn / Campbell Excuse makers...
 

Why did Zorn and JC perfomance decline as they gained experience through the season? The team faded when Portis did. I really believe the team and coaches relied to heavily on Portis.

Re: For the Zorn / Campbell Excuse makers...
 

[quote=over the mountain;512261]the same fans who want zorn and JC fired are the same fans who make threads about danny and vinny not being patient and creating a mess of a franchise. firing zorn this year will only add his name to the list with marty of things danny screwed up . . . are we really encouraging our meddling owner to do another overhaul after 1 year when our biggest collective fan knock on danny is his lack of patience? do you see the irony in this? maybe its just me.

go skins!![/quote]

It's not just you. What Snyder can't do is just be another fan like he once was. He's not just a fan, he's the owner of the team and he can't panic the way all of us can. If he decides for whatever reason to let Zorn go at the end of this year, it will be very difficult for him to show anyone that he (or anyone else in that front office) has any sort of plan. We have to have the patience to be awful, I mean rally really awful. Because there are a lot of guys on our team who aren't playing that need to play regularly, and the fact is they may stink bad for a couple of years until they have any chance of getting better. But the reality is none of us have that sort of patience.

Re: For the Zorn / Campbell Excuse makers...
 

[quote=over the mountain;512261]the same fans who want zorn and JC fired are the same fans who make threads about danny and vinny not being patient and creating a mess of a franchise. firing zorn this year will only add his name to the list with marty of things danny screwed up . . . are we really encouraging our meddling owner to do another overhaul after 1 year when our biggest collective fan knock on danny is his lack of patience? do you see the irony in this? maybe its just me.

go skins!![/quote]

LOL too true, too true

Re: For the Zorn / Campbell Excuse makers...
 

[quote=44ever;512270]Why did Zorn and JC perfomance decline as they gained experience through the season? The team faded when Portis did. I really believe the team and coaches relied to heavily on Portis.[/quote]

Yeah the writing was on the wall. 2 years ago portis finished season on IR, last year he led the league in carries (and those were some tough hard carries late in the season), then this year we rode portis into the ground not using betts enough in the first half.

i guess were just trying to get our moneys worth. lol

go skins!!

Re: For the Zorn / Campbell Excuse makers...
 

The D.C. Police are cracking down on speeders heading into Washington .....
For the first offense, they give you two Skins tickets...
If you get stopped a second time, they make you use them.


Q. What do you call 47 millionaires sitting around a TV watching the Super
Bowl?

A. The Washington Redskins.


Q. What do the Washington Redskins and Billy Graham have in common?

A. They both can make 70,000 people stand up and yell 'Jesus Christ'.


Q. How do you keep a Redskin out of your yard?

A. Put up a goal post.


Q.Where do you go in Washington in case of a tornado?

A. To Fedex Field - they never have a touchdown there!


Q. What do you call a Redskin with a Super Bowl ring?

A. A thief.


Q. What's the differen! ce betw een the Washington Redskins and a dollar bill?

A. You can still get four quarters out of a dollar bill.


Q. How many Skins does it take to win a Super Bowl?

A. Nobody knows and we may never find out.


Q. What do the Washington Redskins and opossums have in common?

A. Both play dead at home and get killed on the road.

Re: For the Zorn / Campbell Excuse makers...
 

how do we move forward? how do we evoke change?
What "change" needs to be done? Personally, I think we need to limit the owner's influence on the team (to the extent possible) this includes getting him out of the draft room, and removing his pal Vinny Cerrato. We also need a GM. We also need better scouting (or to listen to the ones we have).

We as fans need to take a stand. We cannot tolerate more of the same...
we've seen this show before, the ending is decidedly disappointing.

We've got one more home game- how will we voice our disapproval? I'm not suggesting booing, but there should certainly be a COORDINATED EFFORT to voice our displeasure.
Maybe we should ALL forgo redskin colors and wear black (signifying both the death of the season and hopefully the figurative death of cerrato). Ideas?

Re: For the Zorn / Campbell Excuse makers...
 

how about just not going to the game?

Re: For the Zorn / Campbell Excuse makers...
 

For the folks who want to lay blame at Campbell's feet and on Zorn for JC "not improving": JC's QB rating last year was 77.6, he was sacked 21 times in 16 games (1.31 / gm). JC's QB rating this year is 85.7 and he's been sacked 34 times in 14 games (2.43 / gm).

Do some research and STOP with the JC sucks arguments.

Re: For the Zorn / Campbell Excuse makers...
 

[quote=maroonandblack30;512288]how about just not going to the game?[/quote]

Agree. 100%

Re: For the Zorn / Campbell Excuse makers...
 

^^^ i dont think the argument for or against JC starts and stops with qb rating and number of sacks. by doing that you might be inviting someone to post JC's win-loss record (team thing but this stat gets attached to the qbs as we all know) or TDs hes thrown as a slam shut argument against anyone supporting JC.

im just going to put this in my sig: reasonable redskins fans can disagree with each other without one side being stupider than the other.

Re: For the Zorn / Campbell Excuse makers...
 

Wow, where to start to much info to process.
1) Skins wows are not all Campbell and Zorn. Just as they shouldn't have gotten all the credit when we were hot, they don't deserve all the credit now. As stated earlier Im pretty sure Zorn/Campbell didn't fumble the first catch of the game away and neither of them fumbled it when we had a chance to tie the game either.
2) Blanche said it best "Stats are for loser or fantasy leagues" the last part was mine. Our defense is average at best. Good D's even with a bad O don't give up 10-14 points 5-10 minutes into most games.
3) I think our real problem is Vinney baby. We do not draft well after our 1st pick, when we have it. I don't think much needs to be said about free agency.

I think our first move must be to fire Vinny. Then draft nothing but O & D lineman. Period

Re: For the Zorn / Campbell Excuse makers...
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;512298]For the folks who want to lay blame at Campbell's feet and on Zorn for JC "not improving": JC's QB rating last year was 77.6, he was sacked 21 times in 16 games (1.31 / gm). JC's QB rating this year is 85.7 and he's been sacked 34 times in 14 games (2.43 / gm).

Do some research and STOP with the JC sucks arguments.[/quote]

JC Sucks!!! How many times yesterday on 3rd down did he miss a open reciever?

Re: For the Zorn / Campbell Excuse makers...
 

[quote=over the mountain;512305]^^^ i dont think the argument for or against JC starts and stops with qb rating and number of sacks. by doing that you might be inviting someone to post JC's win-loss record (team thing but this stat gets attached to the qbs as we all know) or TDs hes thrown as a slam shut argument against anyone supporting JC.

im just going to put this in my sig: reasonable redskins fans can disagree with each other without one side being stupider than the other.[/quote]
TDs thrown is included in the QB rating. I agree stats aren't everything, but they give you a pretty clear indication of trends. Interpretation of stats is important too. If JC had a 77.6 QB rating and was sacked only 1.31 time per game then it's a pretty logical conclusion to say if his QB rating is now 85.7 and he's being sacked 2.43 times per game he's gotten better.

As far as TDs this year he's thrown 13, the teams/QBs mentioned in the first post have thrown 15/15/14 behind better OLs with experienced OCs.

No one is calling anyone stupid, but to ignore facts and statisitics and call those that have facts and statistics to back them up and support Zorn/Campbell "excuse makers"....well, it is what it is.

Re: For the Zorn / Campbell Excuse makers...
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;512298]For the folks who want to lay blame at Campbell's feet and on Zorn for JC "not improving": JC's QB rating last year was 77.6, he was sacked 21 times in 16 games (1.31 / gm). JC's QB rating this year is 85.7 and he's been sacked 34 times in 14 games (2.43 / gm).

Do some research and STOP with the JC sucks arguments.[/quote]

last year we had alot of max protect line schemes going on which is a good reason why the sacks were low last year under gibbs. this year zorn brought in a new spread out offense in which we didnt need extra blockers b/c the qb would be getting the ball out quicker and before pressure could get to him, some call it a 3 step drop. JC does not have the ability to read a D and know where he wants to go with the ball, add to that his long delivery that starts down by his hip and you have a qb who takes alot of punishment and cant flourish under this system.

^^^ not exactly what i believe but is there something irrational or stupid that i said? can we agree that there is more than enough on both sides of the JC debate to allow for honest discussion instead telling people to "STOP" with the JC arguments?

go skins!!!

Re: For the Zorn / Campbell Excuse makers...
 

Jason Campbell and Jim Zorn are partially to blame for the failures of the Washington Redskins, but so is the entire organization. This overreacting, fire the coach, bench the quarterback, hire a free agent, knee jerk reaction after every loss is one of the reasons the Redskins have no stability. The Redskins need to adopt a long term philosophy of building from within. The biggest problems with the Redskins is they have no depth, so when a key player is injured, there is a big drop off in talent. If the Skins consistently drafted for depth every year, they would always be developing talent waiting to step in and contribute. Look at an organization like the Steelers or the Patriots, they continue to stock talent on the offensive and defensive lines year after to year. The Redskins give away all their draft picks and rely too heavy on overrated free agents. The off season plan last year was a good one. They stayed away from the high priced free agents and went to the draft. But as the season started, they shifted gears and went out and blew draft picks on overrated, has been players like Jason Taylor and Shaun Alexander. When are the Redskins going to ever learn? Under Dan Snyder, the Skins have been the laughing stock of the NFL. One blunder after another.

Re: For the Zorn / Campbell Excuse makers...
 

[quote=over the mountain;512318]last year we had alot of max protect line schemes going on which is a good reason why the sacks were low last year under gibbs. this year zorn brought in a new spread out offense in which we didnt need extra blockers b/c the qb would be getting the ball out quicker and before pressure could get to him, some call it a 3 step drop. JC does not have the ability to read a D and know where he wants to go with the ball, add to that his long delivery that starts down by his hip and you have a qb who takes alot of punishment and cant flourish under this system.

^^^ not exactly what i believe but is there something irrational or stupid that i said? can we agree that there is more than enough on both sides of the JC debate to allow for honest discussion instead telling people to "STOP" with the JC arguments?

go skins!!![/quote]
Nothing irrational or stupid with your points, I disagree with most of them, but they are thoughtful. The STOP was not directed at you or the folks who make reasoned points. It was directed at the "JC sucks" posters and the folks who call people "crazy" (thread starter) for supporting Zorn/JC.

Re: For the Zorn / Campbell Excuse makers...
 

[quote=Hail to the Redskins;512153]
1) Atlanta Falcons - Rookie Head Coach, ROOKIE QB - 4-12 last year, 9-5 this year
* First time DEFENSIVE background head coach, ROOKIE QB on a team that was 4-12 last year.
* 5-2 over last 7 games... improving
* Points For - 336 Points Against - 281
* Learning curve really has that drastic effect on an offense/QB??
[/quote]
Falcons are 1st in the NFL in rushing, 5th in sacks allowed. They have a much better OL and Mike Mularkey is an experienced, successful OC. Quality wins against: Det, KC, GB, Oak, NO, SD....did beat CHI, CAR & TB

[quote]
2) Baltimore Ravens - Rookie HC, Rookie QB - 5-11 last year, 9-5 this year
* Again, First time SPECIAL TEAMS background HC, ROOKIE QB.
* 7-2 over last 9 games... improving
* PF - 325 PA - 213
* You can talk about their defense, but that offense with rookie Flacco, much weaker RB crew and basically same talent at receiver/tight end as Skins still = 325 points to our 231.
[/quote]
Ravens are 6th in rushing and tied for 15th in sacks allowed, again much better OL with an experienced, solid OC, Cam Cameron. Quality wins against: CIN (2x), CLE (2x), Oak, Hou, us....did beat MIA, PHI

[quote]
3) Miami Dolphins - Rookie HC, QB Signed JUST before season - 1-15 last year, 9-5 this year
* Again, First time HC, QB in brand new system, weak receiving depth on a team that was 1-15 LAST YEAR!!
* 7-1 over last 8! (talk about improvement!)
* PF - 283 PA - 269
[/quote]
Miami is 12th in rushing, tied for 15th in sacks allowed has an experienced OC and Bill Parcells as GM. Wins against: SD, NE (early), Buf (2x), Den, Sea, Oak, STL, SF.

[/quote]
4) Washington Redskins - Rookie HC, returning QB in new PASSING system (same running) - 9-7 last year, 7-7 this year
* 1-5 over last 6 games... improving??
* 2-2 vs Rams, Lions, Seahawks, Bengals with a point diff. of +2!!!!
* PF - 231 PA - 266
[/quote]
8th in rushing, most of the yardage earlier in the season, 21st in sacks allowed, an aging and injured OL. Also a first time HC/OC that has a staff he didn't put in place for the most part and is trying to do too much right now.

[quote]
5) Aaron Rogers, Matt Cassel, Jay Cutler - All QB's same age/experience as Campbell (or less) outplaying (by far) Campbell.
[/quote]
All different situations, GB was in the Conf Championship last year, NE in the SB, and Cutler faces the Raiders & Chiefs twice a year.

[quote]
We have a better defense than Falcons & Dolphins (with more experience), much better offensive weapons than the Ravens, [/quote]We are 29th in sacks and 30th in turnovers. So while statistically we are slightly better then both, we don't have a defense that normally sets our offense up with great field position.

I wouldn't call it crazy to not fire Zorn and bench JC, quite the opposite, it would be foolish for Snyder to fire Zorn and foolish for Zorn to bench Campbell. The problems we have are primarily on the Offensive line (aging, talent declining, injury prone) and Defensive line (no playmaker at DE, no DT who can collapse the pocket). We have other issues, but those two are glaring weaknesses.

Re: For the Zorn / Campbell Excuse makers...
 

[quote=The Goat;512159]I don't think you're going to find many who argue Zorn isn't way over his head at this point. As I said in another thread it won't be a surprise to me if he finds a new home of his own accord (w/o any meddling from Danny). Zorn is utterly overwhelmed and if he has any sense he knows he is outmatched against just about every HC/defensive coordinator he'll face at this level.

I believe we are just experiencing a little calm before the storm here... things will get much more interesting around Redskins park.[/quote]
I thought Zorn did a good job after we went down by 17 points to come back in the game. Zorn did not fumble the ball to get them rolling and he does not lead the D who looked so flate in the first 1/4 then again letting another team eat up the clock in th 4th. The only thing I questioned yesterday was using Sellers twice at the 1 yard line.

Re: For the Zorn / Campbell Excuse makers...
 

Zorn shouldered a lot of the blame, deserved or not, during his press conference today. I was happy to see that. That was needed I think

Re: For the Zorn / Campbell Excuse makers...
 

[quote=44ever;512301]Agree. 100%[/quote]


How many fans are just not going to show up? Moreover, they may just write it off to lack of anything to play for as opposed to MASSIVE fan rage. I'm not sure people will just not go either- at a min, they'd sell their tickets. I'd like to send Danny a message...i don't think he'll get it vis a vis a no show

Re: For the Zorn / Campbell Excuse makers...
 

That Sellers play should have been called dead. And Colley's fumble was helmet to helmet hit.

Re: For the Zorn / Campbell Excuse makers...
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;512315]TDs thrown is included in the QB rating. I agree stats aren't everything, but they give you a pretty clear indication of trends. Interpretation of stats is important too. If JC had a 77.6 QB rating and was sacked only 1.31 time per game then it's a pretty logical conclusion to say if his QB rating is now 85.7 and he's being sacked 2.43 times per game he's gotten better.

As far as TDs this year he's thrown 13, the teams/QBs mentioned in the first post have thrown 15/15/14 behind better OLs with experienced OCs.

No one is calling anyone stupid, but to ignore facts and statisitics and call those that have facts and statistics to back them up and support Zorn/Campbell "excuse makers"....well, it is what it is.[/quote]


Ok, let me just say first of all... the whole point of the thread is my response to all of the excuses for Zorn & Campbell... I said in another post that I wholeheartedly believe that teams win with their lines (O & D).

But... Let me say in response to this post...

If Campbell is getting sacked 2.43 times per game, many times because his first option isn't open and he pumps but doesn't throw, then sits and pats the ball without automically knowing the best available option left or throwing it away (or pulling down & running like that super running QB Fitzpatrick!! ha!), that is SOMEONE'S fault right? QB? QB coach? Offensive Passing Scheme with not enough viable options & blockers??

That leaves Campbell & Zorn...

Again... let me say... I am not saying we need to fire either, I never even came close to saying it... I am just saying that it is time to use the "inexperienced" excuse for both... they HAVE to improve IMMENSELY for this team not to become the Lions/Bengals/Rams of the next couple of years... these other teams (Falcons/Dolphins/Ravens) have done so in months, not years

Oh, also, for those saying Zorn didn't fumble the ball on the goal line ... he called SELLERS number TWICE in a row!! Portis hasn't scored a touchdown in what, 6-7 weeks? Maybe, if he would have used our fullback to plow an opening for our once MVP candidate RB...

And... those saying our D is much to blame for yesterday, sure, ok, they were worse than usual, but... we went three and out for the first quarter and a half of the game against one of the league's worst defenses!!! Just don't forget how bad the offense was to start the game (and every game over the past 6)

Re: For the Zorn / Campbell Excuse makers...
 

Just want to say, as well, because I started the thread and alot had been misunderstood along the way...

My point is, for this season, the MAIN/MAJORITY reason we will not be in the playoff or playing for a Super Bowl is because of our offense/passing game!

* First of all, name one new starter from last years team... Chris Horton? Jason Taylor? only one's I can think of... so we returned the majority of a 9-7 playoff team.

* Defense is NOT TO BLAME!! The ONLY stat that matters is POINTS ALLOWED... or am I wrong?
* Our defense has not given up more than 24 points in a game all season (Pittsburgh is only other team to say that) - [I][U]12 teams are AVERAGING allowing more than 24 per game!![/U][/I] And one is a playoff team (Arizona)
* OUR defense averages giving up 19.0 per game - 7th in the NFL!!
* Our defense is good enough to make the playoffs!

* We have the 7th ranked running offense... I'd say good enough for a playoff team.

I am just saying that yes, these two guys (mostly Zorn) are the MAIN reason we are not making the playoffs this season. Now, do I agree that maybe with this cast of players needed an established coach/OC? Heck yes and the ultimate blame should go to Cerratto & Snyder, because we weren't ready to completely rebuild yet and could very well be what the Falcons/Ravens/Dolphins are this year.... but... that just reinforces that Zorn (and Campbell under him) has been the main reason we are where we are

I'm not saying that Campbell should go ... as far as Zorn? It depends... if you want to tear everything down and rebuild completely under his new philosophies, ok, let's go there...

but if you think we have a majority of playoff talent and just need some GOOD offseason moves to really go deep in playoffs, we may need the type of change the Falcons/Ravens/ Dolphins got which is experienced OC and HC...

Re: For the Zorn / Campbell Excuse makers...
 

Threads like these remind me how weird we can be as fans at times. Before the season started most of our fan base (and others) agreed that the Skins would struggle to win on a consistent basis and would likely be out of the playoffs. After our fast start it seems those same people overrated our team and thought we would have no problem getting into the playoffs. Now that we've hit a pretty bad patch those people feel "betrayed" when in truth our team is pretty much where we expected them to be in the first place if not better. If more people would take a step back and see just how early it is to have too many expectations of our team we'd be a lot better off.

Re: For the Zorn / Campbell Excuse makers...
 

The author of this thread needs to take an introductory course in logic and/or statistics, because his argument makes no sense. If all four teams were playing the same schedule with identical supporting staffs it would be a valid argument. They aren't, so it's not.

Re: For the Zorn / Campbell Excuse makers...
 

[quote=djnemo65;512512]The author of this thread needs to take an introductory course in logic and/or statistics, because his argument makes no sense. If all four teams were playing the same schedule with identical supporting staffs it would be a valid argument. They aren't, so it's not.[/quote]

The attacks are really getting old...

1) Supporting staffs?? We returned more staff from last year than the Dolphins/Falcons (not sure on Ravens, but i'd say there too)

... the WHOLE POINT of the argument revolves around the specific area of those team's HC/OC portion of their staff being a much more productive, successful, talented group than ours...

2)Schedule? Like I said... we are 2-2 versus teams with a combined 5-47-1 record versus the rest of the league... hello?? don't talk about strength of schedule...

if comparing one NFL coaching staff to another NFL coaching staff isn't logically or statistically prudent enough for you, maybe you should take an introductory course on the word logic..

Re: For the Zorn / Campbell Excuse makers...
 

I think SS made a good point regarding our impatience vs. reality. Skins' fans refuse to go through a "rebuilding" phase that includes major overhauls of staff, player and philosophical overhauls that lead to consecutive top-10 draft seasons. I don't call the last decade or so of bad-mediocre seasons "rebuilding", as so much as we were restocking... some of those seasons just had records similar to inexperienced teams.

We blame Snyder when he meddles, when he pulls the trigger too fast, when he makes big splashes. We blame the team when they don't make changes. We blame the rookies when they're not performing at Pro-Bowl levels their first year. Maybe Snyder is just a reflection of us. If any of us were in his position, the fanbase would still be looking for blood. Maybe we're the problem?

Re: For the Zorn / Campbell Excuse makers...
 

[quote=Hail to the Redskins;512518]The attacks are really getting old...

1) Supporting staffs?? We returned more staff from last year than the Dolphins/Falcons (not sure on Ravens, but i'd say there too)

... the WHOLE POINT of the argument revolves around the specific area of those team's HC/OC portion of their staff being a much more productive, successful, talented group than ours...

2)Schedule? Like I said... we are 2-2 versus teams with a combined 5-47-1 record versus the rest of the league... hello?? don't talk about strength of schedule...

if comparing one NFL coaching staff to another NFL coaching staff isn't logically or statistically prudent enough for you, maybe you should take an introductory course on the word logic..[/quote]


If one wishes to criticize the Redskins, there exists ample material with which to do that. Many posters on this site have produced effective and often devastating analyses attacking both the coaching staff and the players. Very edifying, love reading it. However, comparing the Skins to the Dolphins, or Falcons, or 85 Bears, or 96 Chicago Bulls, or whatever is completely arbitrary and irrelevant. That’s not the standard by which we judge them. Now, it's one thing to produce smart analysis drawing parallels between coaching staffs with similar traits and circumstances. This type of soft-analysis is what good sportswriters and good posters do. It is another to point at a different team with a new coach and QB and say, see, their success mathematically, incontrovertibly proves the Redskins suck. One is interesting, the other is ass stoopid.

I wouldn't have so big a problem with your thread if you weren't imbuing it with the language of statistics, something you clearly don't understand.

Re: For the Zorn / Campbell Excuse makers...
 

[quote=djnemo65;512523]If one wishes to criticize the Redskins, there exists ample material with which to do that. Many posters on this site have produced effective and often devastating analyses attacking both the coaching staff and the players. Very edifying, love reading it. However, comparing the Skins to the Dolphins, or Falcons, or 85 Bears, or 96 Chicago Bulls, or whatever is completely arbitrary and irrelevant. That’s not the standard by which we judge them. Now, it's one thing to produce smart analysis drawing parallels between coaching staffs with similar traits and circumstances. This type of soft-analysis is what good sportswriters and good posters do. It is another to point at a different team with a new coach and QB and say, see, their success mathematically, incontrovertibly proves the Redskins suck. One is interesting, the other is ass stoopid.

I wouldn't have so big a problem with your thread if you weren't imbuing it with the language of statistics, something you clearly don't understand.[/quote]


"the language of statistics" you are mentioning would be...? Points scored and points allowed??? Record versus the worst teams in football (a combined 5-47-1 aginst the rest of the league)??

231 points scored for one team compared to 336, 325, 283 for the other three... help me with understanding these tough statistics...which is better??

oh yeah, that's right... points don't matter when comparing one team to another.. right?


And who said anything about the '85 Bears??? Are you seriously criticizing my post when you take a little bit of information and stretch it as far as you possibly can with words just to try and support some really idiotic analysis? Like I need your approval for anything??

I am comparing 4 teams with new Head Coaches who have had to install new offenses with 4 "new" (to the system) QB's ... using the only stat that REALLY matters... POINTS! ... yeah, apples to grapes....

let's just agree to disagree because I can't read anymore mid-numbingly ignorant people who only want to criticize other people when make absolutely no common sense themselves...

if you disagree that JC and JZ should be to blame for our season, fine, just say so... but to attack me personally with no reasonable logic....

Re: For the Zorn / Campbell Excuse makers...
 

Look you makes some good points, but how can you assign all the blame to JC who has improved and a first year/last minute HC that didn't even have the time/chance to bring in his own staff except for an OC that doesn't even know the WCO and an assistant from St.Olaf?


The offensive line doesn't deserve any blame?
Offensive line coaching?

Receivers not getting open? Dropping passes? Not making big plays?
WR coaching?

The main thing that bothers me about your post is that you gloss over the 2 most important factors in the Ravens and Falcons offensive success. The
offensive coordinator/offensive line coach.

Can Zorn get some credit for taking a team, that everyone wrote off at the start of the season, to 6-2 now 7-7 when people picked them to go 4-11?

Can Zorn get some credit for putting out an creative offense during the 6-2 run?

Can Zorn get some credit for holding it all together while serving as HC/OC/QB coach?

Re: For the Zorn / Campbell Excuse makers...
 

[quote=Hail to the Redskins;512490]If Campbell is getting sacked 2.43 times per game, many times because his first option isn't open and he pumps but doesn't throw, then sits and pats the ball without automically knowing the best available option left or throwing it away (or pulling down & running like that super running QB Fitzpatrick!! ha!), that is SOMEONE'S fault right? QB? QB coach? Offensive Passing Scheme with not enough viable options & blockers??[/quote]
If that was the case, you'd be correct, but over the last few weeks he's been getting sacked because the OL is making incorrect blitz pick-up calls, is missing assignments, or getting physically beaten. JC has actually saved a good number of sacks by getting out of the pocket or getting the ball out quickly.

[quote]Again... let me say... I am not saying we need to fire either, I never even came close to saying it... I am just saying that it is time to use the "inexperienced" excuse for both... they HAVE to improve IMMENSELY for this team not to become the Lions/Bengals/Rams of the next couple of years... these other teams (Falcons/Dolphins/Ravens) have done so in months, not years
[/quote]
I agree both Zorn and Campbell need to improve, but they are not the main culprits for our current stretch of poor performances. I challenge you to name me a productive offense with a poor OL....don't try to research and find one, because it doesn't exist.

[quote]
Oh, also, for those saying Zorn didn't fumble the ball on the goal line ... he called SELLERS number TWICE in a row!! Portis hasn't scored a touchdown in what, 6-7 weeks? Maybe, if he would have used our fullback to plow an opening for our once MVP candidate RB...
[/quote]I agree with you here, bad play selection by Zorn.

[quote]
And... those saying our D is much to blame for yesterday, sure, ok, they were worse than usual, but... we went three and out for the first quarter and a half of the game against one of the league's worst defenses!!! Just don't forget how bad the offense was to start the game (and every game over the past 6)[/quote]our defense surrendered 20 points, against a Bungles team that is averaging 12.4 point per game, I believe it was 11.x prior to Sunday. They definitely are responsible for this loss just as much as the offense.

Re: For the Zorn / Campbell Excuse makers...
 

good post... but I disagree with the sacks assessment. Many sacks lately have been from the other team having more rushers than we have protectors in my opinion... but that's fine

Also... the defense gave up the TD early, but the Bungleds DID start the drive on the 35... not a good excuse, and the did performed below par, but... anyway, our offense should be able to score more than 20 against the Cincinnati Bengals too...

Re: For the Zorn / Campbell Excuse makers...
 

To lay 100% of the blame on JC and even Zorn is not fair, but in the real world of pro football if a team isn't clicking on offense the guy(s) that get the axe are the HC and/or the QB. Zorn's WCO needs to be gutted altogether or at the very least heavily modified somehow in the offseason if he doesn't get canned. JC gets another year in my book to show us if he is a real talent or just an average QB. AFter '09 he will have had the same time as Frerotte had to show us what he can do, and if he has another subpar year simply don't resign him. To be honest, I expect that to be what will precisely happen. Although he has shown some improvement, he still is slow on the development curve for the time he has been here.

Re: For the Zorn / Campbell Excuse makers...
 

We are never going anywhere with jason cambell as our qb.This team was struggling to score points last year and was heading for a 6 and 10 season.Lucky for them jc got hurt and all are offensive problems followed him to the bench.Cannot read defenses does not make quick enough decisions.play colt or hell even give the man that carried us to the playoffs last year a chance.