Re: Reading between the lines I say Zorn is gone.
 

[quote=maroonandblack30;513700]That could be the case. I just don't understand why VC wouldn't just come out and say JZ is the coach in 09. Something is strange about that.[/quote]
To think that they would not want a little time in the off season to look at JZ would be crazy after what has happened in the last 6 games. I'd think that alot is on the table and now is not the time to do so. We still have two games and do you really think that Snyder and Vinny are going to call JZ into there office now to discuess what happened and what to do about next year. Heck, we are not even totally out of the play off picture and to start those talks now would be stupid.

Re: Reading between the lines I say Zorn is gone.
 

[quote=firstdown;513720]To think that they would not want a little time in the off season to look at JZ would be crazy after what has happened in the last 6 games. I'd think that alot is on the table and now is not the time to do so. We still have two games and do you really think that Snyder and Vinny are going to call JZ into there office now to discuess what happened and what to do about next year. Heck, we are not even totally out of the play off picture and to start those talks now would be stupid.[/quote]

Exactly. I also think they will be smart enough not to fire Zorn unless they know for sure someone like Bill Cowher or Mike Holmgren wants the job.

Re: Reading between the lines I say Zorn is gone.
 

[quote=GMScud;513709]Don't you love that he is so bug eyed? I mean I don't know if I've ever seen someone who's eyes are that wide at all times. He's literally and figuratively a deer in headlights! LOL![/quote]

yeah lol, i try to not judge vinny on the way he looks or laughs or makes cheesy non-funny jokes and just in general comes off as someone i could see the rest of the nfl exec.'s laughing at behind his back.

i try to just focus that out and give him an objective chance to make valid insightful points b/c his personal appearance and personallity should have nothing to do with his ability to build a team . . . . i try, i really do.

go skins!!

Re: Reading between the lines I say Zorn is gone.
 

[quote=BrunellMVP?;513715]maybe the Zorn discussion never happened (with Vinny present) becuase the Redskins are FINALLY going to KICK HIM TO THE CURB and are keeping him out of the loop.[/quote]


That would be glorious!!!!

Re: Reading between the lines I say Zorn is gone.
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;513710]Considering how poorly our linebackers have played (other than Fletcher), The last thing Olivadotti deserves is a promotion. We should bring in someone outside for the DC position, possibly Keith Butler (Steelers LB coach), or Mike Waufle (Giants DL coach). We need some fresh blood injected into the defense, not someone who will just continue with Blache's wussy-pants philosophy.[/quote]

How many different names are you going to have on this site. Only one is allowed, just so you know. You can PM me or Matty with any questions

As for Olivadotti, I'm not going to hold him entirely responsible for the fact that neither McIntosh nor Washington appears to have been healthy for 75% of the season. I like what he has done with a couple of the "scrubs" in Fincher and Sinclair over the summer. Also, prior to this he worked on the defensive line a couple of years back and I think he did pretty good work with Montgomery and Golston.

Like I said though, I don't think he's ready to be defensive coordinator. I wouldn't mind brining Mike Trgovac back

Re: Reading between the lines I say Zorn is gone.
 

[quote=firstdown;513720]To think that they would not want a little time in the off season to look at JZ would be crazy after what has happened in the last 6 games. I'd think that alot is on the table and now is not the time to do so. We still have two games and do you really think that Snyder and Vinny are going to call JZ into there office now to discuess what happened and what to do about next year. Heck, we are not even totally out of the play off picture and to start those talks now would be stupid.[/quote]


The fact that the FO possibly has that mentality scares me. Why even hire a guy like Zorn if you aren't going to totally commit to him for at least 3 years? It makes zero sense. Basically they are saying that a 1st time head coach who hasn't even had time to bring in his own players or coaches and inherited a 9-7 team has to do better than 7-9 or his job is in jeopardy. Someone please tell me how that is sound management!!!

Re: Reading between the lines I say Zorn is gone.
 

Did anyone ever consider that FO making a statement about Zorn would imply there was a consideration to dump him. I don't hear other owners making such statements. There are at least 10 teams with a worse record and no statements made about HC. Firings. We are not off season yet guys come on. Giving Zorn one year is bad enough at least give him the whole season before making a statement.

Re: Reading between the lines I say Zorn is gone.
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;513710]Considering how poorly our linebackers have played (other than Fletcher), The last thing Olivadotti deserves is a promotion. We should bring in someone outside for the DC position, [COLOR="Red"][SIZE="4"]possibly Keith Butler (Steelers LB coach), or Mike Waufle (Giants DL coach). [/SIZE][/COLOR]We need some fresh blood injected into the defense, not someone who will just continue with Blache's wussy-pants philosophy.[/quote]

:food-smil

[B][I][U][SIZE="3"][COLOR="DarkOrange"]If[/COLOR][/SIZE][/U][/I][/B] Blache gets replaced those choices would be nice. IMO we need DC that comes from a successful dynamic defense like the Steelers, Giants, Ravens, Eagles etc.

Re: Reading between the lines I say Zorn is gone.
 

[quote=maroonandblack30;513726]The fact that the FO possibly has that mentality scares me. Why even hire a guy like Zorn if you aren't going to totally commit to him for at least 3 years? It makes zero sense. Basically they are saying that a 1st time head coach who hasn't even had time to bring in his own players or coaches and inherited a 9-7 team has to do better than 7-9 or his job is in jeopardy. Someone please tell me how that is sound management!!![/quote]
Your now making up a bunch of "What if's". I'm sure when they hired Zorn it was for the long haul but there are factors that could make him a one term HC. What if the players have issues with Zorn? What if he is a "its my way or the highway" type guy? Your just makin up an arguement with a bunch of unknowns right now and it is based off something that was not said.

Re: Reading between the lines I say Zorn is gone.
 

[quote=firstdown;513732]Your now making up a bunch of "What if's". I'm sure when they hired Zorn it was for the long haul but there are factors that could make him a one term HC. What if the players have issues with Zorn? What if he is a "its my way or the highway" type guy? Your just makin up an arguement with a bunch of unknowns right now and it is based off something that was not said.[/quote]I agree that there are certain criteria that Zorn has to meet to deserve to come back, but the players have had Gibbs for four years. If the players and Zorn come to a realization that they cannot co-exist, I think the players have to go first.

It's a job requirement in the NFL to play hard and play smart for your head coach, and far worse coaches than Zorn have had success in this league. So while Zorn shouldn't get a lifetime pass to learn peoples skills (if this is indeed the problem), this is a much worse situation than we expected if the players can't win with him. Because then, these players can't win with anyone. Especially Bill Cowher.

Re: Reading between the lines I say Zorn is gone.
 

My gut tells me Zorn will be back.

Re: Reading between the lines I say Zorn is gone.
 

[quote=Mattyk72;513740]My gut tells me Zorn will be back.[/quote]

Me too, although sweeping changes to many assistants are necessary IMO.

Re: Reading between the lines I say Zorn is gone.
 

[quote=GTripp0012;513733]I agree that there are certain criteria that Zorn has to meet to deserve to come back, but the players have had Gibbs for four years. If the players and Zorn come to a realization that they cannot co-exist, I think the players have to go first.

It's a job requirement in the NFL to play hard and play smart for your head coach, and far worse coaches than Zorn have had success in this league. So while Zorn shouldn't get a lifetime pass to learn peoples skills (if this is indeed the problem), this is a much worse situation than we expected if the players can't win with him. Because then, these players can't win with anyone. Especially Bill Cowher.[/quote]

In principle, what you say is right. However, the salary cap precludes getting rid of everyone and its far easier to get rid of a head coach than an entire 53 man team.

Zorn drew the last straw with me when he sat portis and ran mike sellars twice from the 6 inch line against the Bengals in a game in which we desperately needed the touchdown. Whether Zorn did that deliberately to send a message to Portis or whether he's just an idiot - Zorn earned his pink slip with that decision. yes, our front office is incompetent and impatient, but if Zorn is fired, he has no one to blame but himself.

On the other hand, If Zorn stays, the following people have got to go:

1. Sherman Smith - Zorn needs someone with experience here.
2. Joe Bugel - Love the man, he's done alot for us, but he should have been able to get more out of the line this year.

While i'm at it, the following people need to go, no matter what happens to Zorn:

1. Greg Blache and any of his staff our new DC decides to replace - Blache is just not aggressive enough. Yeah, i know our secondary has done a great job and our front 7 is pretty weak, but our defense gives up too many long drives in the 4th quarter and we simply don't put enough pressure on the QB. Alot of this is personnel-related, but alot of it is related to Blache's scheme and system. its time for some fresh blood.
2. ARE - He's done nothing for us and its time for Moss to be our #3 WR/punt returner. Devin Thomas and Malcom Kelly need to start and learn as they go.
The following should be self-explainatory:
3. Rock Cartwright. Youre only good to us on special teams and we need a big bruising running back for short yardage and goal line situations. Sorry, I love ya, but this is a business.
4. Jason Taylor
5. Shawn Springs
6. Marchs Washington
7. Reed Doughty
8. Phillip Daniels (yeah, he's still on the team)
9. Chris Wilson
10. Pete kendall
11. Casey Rabach
12. Ryan Plakemeir
and last, but most certainly not least:
13. Shaun Suisham

Re: Reading between the lines I say Zorn is gone.
 

[quote=Mattyk72;513740]My gut tells me Zorn will be back.[/quote]

I wish I thought the same, but I'm not 100% convinced right now, not even 60%. Of course...you've got a bigger gut :)

If Zorn is gone though, it won't be like last year. Another head coach will have been all but signed before they push Zorn out the door.

Re: Reading between the lines I say Zorn is gone.
 

Zorn will get a second chance. If the offense doesn't improve and we don't make the playoffs next year, he is gone for sure. If we don't draft help on the o and d lines, it really doesn't matter who the coach is.

Re: Reading between the lines I say Zorn is gone.
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;513744]In principle, what you say is right. However, the salary cap precludes getting rid of everyone and its far easier to get rid of a head coach than an entire 53 man team.

Zorn drew the last straw with me when he sat portis and ran mike sellars twice from the 6 inch line against the Bengals in a game in which we desperately needed the touchdown. Whether Zorn did that deliberately to send a message to Portis or whether he's just an idiot - Zorn earned his pink slip with that decision. yes, our front office is incompetent and impatient, but if Zorn is fired, he has no one to blame but himself.

On the other hand, If Zorn stays, the following people have got to go:

1. Sherman Smith - Zorn needs someone with experience here.
2. Joe Bugel - Love the man, he's done alot for us, but he should have been able to get more out of the line this year.

While i'm at it, the following people need to go, no matter what happens to Zorn:

1. Greg Blache and any of his staff our new DC decides to replace - Blache is just not aggressive enough. Yeah, i know our secondary has done a great job and our front 7 is pretty weak, but our defense gives up too many long drives in the 4th quarter and we simply don't put enough pressure on the QB. Alot of this is personnel-related, but alot of it is related to Blache's scheme and system. its time for some fresh blood.
2. ARE - He's done nothing for us and its time for Moss to be our #3 WR/punt returner. Devin Thomas and Malcom Kelly need to start and learn as they go.
The following should be self-explainatory:
3. Rock Cartwright. Youre only good to us on special teams and we need a big bruising running back for short yardage and goal line situations. Sorry, I love ya, but this is a business.
4. Jason Taylor
5. Shawn Springs
6. Marchs Washington
7. Reed Doughty
8. Phillip Daniels (yeah, he's still on the team)
9. Chris Wilson
10. Pete kendall
11. Casey Rabach
12. Ryan Plakemeir
and last, but most certainly not least:
13. Shaun Suisham[/quote]

If Zorn stays, I think Sherman and Stump need to stay as well. He has to have some support and those are his guys. Maybe they'll be in different capacities, particulartly Sherman Smith but I think they stay

Re: Reading between the lines I say Zorn is gone.
 

I am sure this was the topic of conversation with Gibbs his first stint as coach. He's back, hell you gotta give him a chance. Ridiculous to be talking about it....waste of time.

Re: Reading between the lines I say Zorn is gone.
 

[quote=firstdown;513732]Your now making up a bunch of "What if's". I'm sure when they hired Zorn it was for the long haul but there are factors that could make him a one term HC. [B]What if [/B]the players have issues with Zorn? What if he is a "its my way or the highway" type guy? Your just makin up an arguement with a bunch of unknowns right now and it is based off something that was not said.[/quote]

Everything on this board is a "what if"..... You just gave a "what if" scenario yourself. Thats what we do.


Anyway, if Snyder gets rid of Zorn because he has "issues" with the players then this franchise is official doomed until Snyder is gone. "My way or the highway" coaches are the coaches that win in the NFL

"Players" coaches in general don't get it done. Only exception I can think of is Dungy.

Re: Reading between the lines I say Zorn is gone.
 

[quote=GTripp0012;513733]I agree that there are certain criteria that Zorn has to meet to deserve to come back, but the players have had Gibbs for four years. If the players and Zorn come to a realization that they cannot co-exist, I think the players have to go first.

It's a job requirement in the NFL to play hard and play smart for your head coach, and far worse coaches than Zorn have had success in this league. So while Zorn shouldn't get a lifetime pass to learn peoples skills (if this is indeed the problem), this is a much worse situation than we expected if the players can't win with him. Because then, these players can't win with anyone. [B]Especially Bill Cowher[/B].[/quote]

Exactly... if the current players can't get along with JZ, they will hate Cower.

Re: Reading between the lines I say Zorn is gone.
 

[quote=maroonandblack30;513757]Everything on this board is a "what if"..... You just gave a "what if" scenario yourself. Thats what we do.


Anyway, if Snyder gets rid of Zorn because he has "issues" with the players then this franchise is official doomed until Snyder is gone. [B]"My way or the highway" coaches are the coaches that win in the NFL [/B]

"Players" coaches in general don't get it done. Only exception I can think of is Dungy.[/quote]

No doubt. That's why Wade Phillips ultimately won't win a damn thing in Dallas except regular season hype. On the flip side, look at Coughlin's Giants.

Re: Reading between the lines I say Zorn is gone.
 

[quote=GMScud;513760]No doubt. That's why Wade Phillips ultimately won't win a damn thing in Dallas except regular season hype. On the flip side, look at Coughlin's Giants.[/quote]

You think Belicheck cares if the players have "issues" with him? Lol.


Good coaches make players buy into the system or they get new players.

Re: Reading between the lines I say Zorn is gone.
 

The article tries to give the impression tha Vinnie may be covering up for a forgone JZ. I listened to the show today (and that portion as well). It did not strike me that way at all. When asked about JZ's future, Vinnie seemed genuinely taken back, and a little insulted by the question. His covering the reponse twice seemed more a product of gaining his composure, rather than covering up.

Re: Reading between the lines I say Zorn is gone.
 

[quote=maroonandblack30;513758]Exactly... if the current players can't get along with JZ, they will hate Cower.[/quote]

Not necessarily, because Cowher has a bit of track record as a head coach in the NFL. It's not about getting along, it's about respect. Respect from coach to player and player to coach. Zorn hasn't yet earned that respect it seems. In time, he could though. By the same token, in many cases players on the roster haven't earned Zorn's respect.

Re: Reading between the lines I say Zorn is gone.
 

[quote=maroonandblack30;513667]Sub-par? Steelers, Cowboys, Giants, Ravens? those aren't sub par teams.[/quote]
How about the Rams and BenGALS then?

Re: Reading between the lines I say Zorn is gone.
 

^ bengals played all NFC east teams tough, OT giants, tied Birds... lost @ Boys not by much ..

beat us, i mean, we beat ourselves...

ur opinions get more near-sighted every post i see no disrespect...

but truth.

Re: Reading between the lines I say Zorn is gone.
 

[quote=firstdown;513668]What do you mean by classic front office speak. He said they have not discussed the issue so I would think that looks better for Zorn. If they are talking about the issue then they would be talking about letting him go.[/quote]


Do you follow professional sports in general? Front office guys lie all the time in professional sports. These guys are not going to say they are pulling the plug on a guy with 2 games to go since the guy hasn't coached a full season yet. Secondly, how many times have we heard this denial from front offices with regards to a coach that is on the hot seat? NBA and NFL front office guys are geat politicians ie liars. These guys deny anything until the deed has been done. If the Skins do indeed go 7-9 and they do it in last Sunday's fashion, Zorn is gone.

Re: Reading between the lines I say Zorn is gone.
 

Just watching Redskins Report, they all think Zorn is going to stay for another year and Danny Boy won't fire him. Wilbon said, "Unless Cowher is available". Riggo did bring up the idea of is Zorn enough of a survivor to stick around and not quit.

Also said that the coach hasn't lost the team, but the team has lost the coach.

Re: Reading between the lines I say Zorn is gone.
 

[quote=vallin21;513670]So your saying we can't beat those teams. 3 of those 4 games were at home. Baltimore is a 45 min drive. They might not be "sub par" but all 4 games are games we had a chance to win.[/quote]

"Chance to" does not equal win. And they definately aren't subpar teams.

If Zorn is gone the O will be even worse next year.

Re: Reading between the lines I say Zorn is gone.
 

[quote=Hog1;513762]The article tries to give the impression tha Vinnie may be covering up for a forgone JZ. I listened to the show today (and that portion as well). It did not strike me that way at all. When asked about JZ's future, Vinnie seemed genuinely taken back, and a little insulted by the question. His covering the reponse twice seemed more a product of gaining his composure, rather than covering up.[/quote]

I just heard it and that's the impression I got.

Re: Reading between the lines I say Zorn is gone.
 

[quote=GusFrerotte;513776]How about the Rams and BenGALS then?[/quote]

read the whole post before you make your comments. I was refering to a poster who said that the last 5 losses were to sub-par teams. The Bengals are sub-par but the other 4 will all make the playoffs.

Seriously, I know the Skins fall is disappointing but 5 of their 7 losses were to legit teams.... the sad thing is that if they had taken care of business against the Rams and Bungles they would probably be going to playoffs.

Re: Reading between the lines I say Zorn is gone.
 

[quote=twinskinsfan;513756]I am sure this was the topic of conversation with Gibbs his first stint as coach. He's back, hell you gotta give him a chance. Ridiculous to be talking about it....waste of time.[/quote]

It was different with Gibbs. Gibbs inherited a sub-par team and turned it around in two seasons. Zorn inherited a playoff team that was good enough to start 6-2. I understand the sentiment that Zorn needs time to put his system in place but in my eyes he's not head coaching material. In the last few years since I've seen this team play I've never seen such a lack of heart. One play that stuck out in my mind was during the Ravens game Joe Flacco was scrambling. In pursuit was Jason Taylor however he appeared to be jogging. Now maybe his leg is still messed up maybe he was keeping his pursuit angle in check but it just didn't look right. There have been countless other little observations I've made but that one just sticks out.

I know the players are partly at fault but whatever Zorn is doing isn't nearly good enough to light a fire under their butt to the point where they could at least beat the Bengals. To put it plainly, I believe he's a horrible motivator. And keeping him around for a few more years with a locker room that doesn't believe in him nor support him doesn't seem like a good idea. Of course theres the ultimate story of disfunction with Tom Coughlin holding up the lombardi trophy last season but I just don't see this going anywhere.

Sometimes I feel like this whole experience with Zorn as head coach is kind of like meeting a beautiful girl, hitting it off, then after the inital high wears off you find out that you have nothing in common.

Re: Reading between the lines I say Zorn is gone.
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;513821]It was different with Gibbs. Gibbs inherited a sub-par team and turned it around in two seasons. Zorn inherited a playoff team that was good enough to start 6-2. I understand the sentiment that Zorn needs time to put his system in place but in my eyes he's not head coaching material. In the last few years since I've seen this team play I've never seen such a lack of heart. One play that stuck out in my mind was during the Ravens game Joe Flacco was scrambling. In pursuit was Jason Taylor however he appeared to be jogging. Now maybe his leg is still messed up maybe he was keeping his pursuit angle in check but it just didn't look right. There have been countless other little observations I've made but that one just sticks out.

I know the players are partly at fault but whatever Zorn is doing isn't nearly good enough to light a fire under their butt to the point where they could at least beat the Bengals. To put it plainly, I believe he's a horrible motivator. And keeping him around for a few more years with a locker room that doesn't believe in him nor support him doesn't seem like a good idea. Of course theres the ultimate story of disfunction with Tom Coughlin holding up the lombardi trophy last season but I just don't see this going anywhere.

Sometimes I feel like this whole experience with Zorn as head coach is kind of like meeting a beautiful girl, hitting it off, then after the inital high wears off you find out that you have nothing in common.[/quote]I think you're already aware of this, but just because Gibbs' teams were winning in December, doesn't mean that some players weren't dogging it on some plays on his team also. Keep this in mind when you critique Zorn.

Re: Reading between the lines I say Zorn is gone.
 

and in gibbs FIRST stint, it was pretty much the same. new offense, ppl didnt bleeve, i wasnt alive but i've red & know.

give the fckin guy a chance.

Re: Reading between the lines I say Zorn is gone.
 

This whole thing is media driven . I strongly believe Zorn will be back unless he quits . I also have to think some fans want Zorn to go and are perpetuating the rumors if nothing else but to be martyrs .

Re: Reading between the lines I say Zorn is gone.
 

I love Joe Gibbs but last year when the players decided to play football it was not Joe they played for it was Sean Taylor. Instead of getting rid of JZ they need to weed out the deadbeats.

Re: Reading between the lines I say Zorn is gone.
 

[quote=PennSkinsFan;513645]I can only accept it if Vinny goes with him. Vinny drafts. Vinny sings older vets to big money deals. Vinny makes stupid trades. ANDDDDDDDD Vinny hired Zorn. Getting rid of Zorn and keeping Vinny fixes NOTHING.[/quote]

Amen. The reality is that our coach is irrelevent until we get rid of VC and put a real GM in place. Our talent has at best a 10 win upside if everything goes right. In the 10 years VC has been involved we have never had a roster that had Super Bowl talent.

Re: Reading between the lines I say Zorn is gone.
 

I thought Vinnie said that yeah Zorn was coming back and that the story about his job being in jeopardy was media driven

Re: Reading between the lines I say Zorn is gone.
 

[quote=maroonandblack30;513757]Everything on this board is a "what if"..... You just gave a "what if" scenario yourself. Thats what we do.


Anyway, if Snyder gets rid of Zorn because he has "issues" with the players then this franchise is official doomed until Snyder is gone. "My way or the highway" coaches are the coaches that win in the NFL

"Players" coaches in general don't get it done. Only exception I can think of is Dungy.[/quote]
So you have been here now less than a month and your telling me how things work on this site. Thanks, I guess it never sank in until you made it clear.

Re: Reading between the lines I say Zorn is gone.
 

[quote=30gut;513844]I thought Vinnie said that yeah Zorn was coming back and that the story about his job being in jeopardy was media driven[/quote]
He did you must have missed what [B]maroonandblack30 posted because this is only a "what if" site.[/B]

Re: Reading between the lines I say Zorn is gone.
 

[quote=firstdown;513854]So you have been here now less than a month and your telling me how things work on this site. Thanks, I guess it never sank in until you made it clear.[/quote]

Dude, easy there. I'm saying thats what we as "fans" do... in general not just in regards to this site.

Anyway, I didn't know you had to have tenure on this site before you starting posting. lol. I always find it amusing when guys resort to the "I have been here longer than you arguement" when they finally realize they can't debate a point.