Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

The receivers are fine. Zorn needs to find ways to better utilize the backs & TEs, protect the QB and develop either Thomas OR Kelley (hopefully both). They have much bigger needs elsewhere.

Remember how crappy the Falcons receivers were when Vick was their QB? Remember all the Vick apologists saying he had no one credible to throw to? Remember all the talk of TO going to the Falcons and how that would improve Vick's numbers?

Well those same WRs are there now and look at what they did this year. Roddy White's a pro-bowler. What's different? Hmmm...

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

Tj would be a great move, and I bet you could get him for a decent price also. He has to be tired of the BS in Cincy by now. At some point these guys do want a legacy, meaning a ring. He has no hope of that with Ocho Cinco and the oft injured Palmer. Marv Lewis sucks as a HC. Snyder did well in not giving him our HC position.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=GusFrerotte;517524]Tj would be a great move, and I bet you could get him for a decent price also. He has to be tired of the BS in Cincy by now. At some point these guys do want a legacy, meaning a ring. He has no hope of that with Ocho Cinco and the oft injured Palmer. Marv Lewis sucks as a HC. Snyder did well in not giving him our HC position.[/quote]

TJ is going to cost too much. If they can find a diamond in the rough, I say go for it. Look at what Tampa got out of Antonio Bryant this year. Otherwise, they need to work with what they've got.

The top WRs in the league will likely be watching the Super Bowl from home this year (just like the top cornerbacks). WRs, like most skill positions other than the QB, don't win championships. Good coaching, good line play and great defense is what it takes.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

we drafted 2 wrs last year, they need to develop during the offseason. we need to get help on lines. but jason is going to have to improve this offseason, even when had time to pass the ball, he locks onto one wr, he needs to learn not to lock on one guy

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=Skins n Vols;517498]It would be absurd to draft a WR in 2009. We need to focus on O-line, D-line, and maybe a LB in the later rounds with Fletch getting older and MW falling off.[/quote]


I agree, draft should go to rebuilding the O line, a LB, and a CB for depth. I do think making a play for TJ would be good though via FA. Guy is a gamer stuck on a crappy team. Trade Randle El if need be for more picks, but I think the idea of acquiring TJ isn't so crazy.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=GusFrerotte;517534]I agree, draft should go to rebuilding the O line, a LB, and a CB for depth. I do think making a play for TJ would be good though via FA. Guy is a gamer stuck on a crappy team. Trade Randle El if need be for more picks, but I think the idea of acquiring TJ isn't so crazy.[/quote]


randle el isnt tradable

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

I think the best teams are the ones who get the most out of what they've got (see Bill Parcells). Here's how I think the Skins can improve the passing game:

1) Move the pocket - If the O line is struggling, then move the pocket or get good at HB screens and other plays that negate a good pass rush, etc. Zorn should have called more bootlegs this season, including naked bootlegs on the goal line. Campbell is good at making tacklers miss once he gets going, so I don't know why he couldn't rush for more TDs.

2) More imaginative play calling - we've seen Portis and ARE be successful throwing the ball (remember the TD pass from ARE to Cooley against the Eagles) and other teams made effective use of the Wildcat formation all season long. Look at what the Ravens did all year and the Steelers used to do under Cowher. They were good for 2-3 "trick" plays every game, and we're effective running those plays because it was part of their identity.

3) Get the backs involved in the passing game - I hear lots of complaints about our receivers, but the last time I checked, RBs were allowed to catch balls as well. Why Portis hasn't been more of a receiving threat during his career I'll never understand. Who were the Chiefs all-world wide receivers when they were one of the top scoring offenses in the league? Does the name Priest Holmes ring a bell?

4) Go to a 2 or 3 back system - Feature backs are almost a thing of the past. And even teams that do rely heavily on a primary RB get significant production from the backup RB (Chargers, Vikings, Falcons, etc.). The best running teams platoon their backs - Giants, Titans, Panthers, Patriots, etc. Having a consistent, healthy running game will help the passing game remain a factor all season long. The Skins can't continue to give Portis 340 plus carries each year. I think the Skins can use Portis, Betts and Cartwright much like the Ravens and Giants use their backs.

5) Get young and better on the O line - Campbell is a servicable QB when he has time to throw. Better play calling, another year in Zorn's system (this excuse gets discredited time and time again by other teams, but OK), better pass protection and the development of Thomas and/or Kelly and Davis, should produce better results next year. Remember, the Skins just needed to beat the Bengals, Rams and 49ers to be 11-5 and in the playoffs (I know, ifs and buts are like elbows). Someone said we used to have great receivers when we won those Super Bowls in the 80s and early 90s. No we didn't We had great O lines and pretty decent QBs (none of which are in the HOF). Rick Sanders had 9 catches for 193 yards in the Super Bowl for crying out loud. Who the hell is Ricky Sanders?

6) Encourage Campbell to take more chances - Maybe it was Gibbs that did it to him, but Campbell has developed a crippling phobia of interceptions. I know he only had 6, but his team also finished 8-8 and out of the playoffs. To throw for only 156 yards in a loss against a poor pass defense in a meaningless game is a sin. Let 'er rip! I remember when Brian Griese had 19 TDs and only 4 INTs for the Broncos. How did his career turn out? And I've got news for everyone who complains that our receivers never get open. It's the NFL. Receivers aren't always open. Receivers make plays ALL THE TIME with defeners draped all over them. And if our wide outs are too short to out jump the defender, then throw the ball short and let the wide receiver come back to the ball. The Skins once had a receiving corp that was so good it was given a nickname. That nickname was "The Smurfs". So spare me the garbage about our receivers being too short. The single best season produced by a Redskins WR was delivered by Santana Moss with friggin Mark Brunell as his QB. Where will TO, Randy Moss, Andre Johnson and Calvin Johnson be watching the Super Bowl from? They're living rooms.

The Skins had less pass interference calls than any other team in the league and couldn't outscore the first team to go 0-16. Maybe if Zorn gave Campbell the green light to take more chances, he would be more willing to throw into tight coverage. This would solve his problem of holding onto the ball too long. Single coverage is open in the NFL.

The bottom line is that the wide receivers aren't the problem. Most of the biggest and baddest receivers in the game will be sitting this year's Super Bowl out while a guy like Ricky Sanders or Deion Brach could very well be the difference maker.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

4) 2 or 3 back system. Strongly agree. I just posted earlier in the FA thread how I would love to see Jacobs in the back with Portis. But Betts will do. I believe it can be very effective and add pass protection as well. We used to use this back in the old Gibbs days with John riggins and Joe Washington. And some of the best teams still do

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=Ruhskins;517407]I agree with everyone that states that the offensive line is a much bigger priority than the WR position. Our Wideouts were fine in the first half of the season, when there was some semblance of pass protection, and Portis ran the ball well.

If we are going to look at tweaking our WR group, then I really don't think you need to get a TJ Housh. I think our rooks have talent, and have the potential to be very good next season. They got their kinks out of the way this year, and they will have a full training camp to get them up to speed, which in turn will help them get in sync with Campbell. That along with Moss, ARE, and Cooley, I just don't see the need to bring or draft anymore wideouts, save maybe for a replacement for Thrash.

Earlier I criticized the coaching of wideouts, b/c I noticed throughout the latter part of the season, that in those rare moments when Campbell had time to throw, the WRs were not open beyond the 1st down marker. I think this even happened earlier in the season when they were doing well. So maybe a new position coach can help develop the rookies, and help our wideouts get open.[/quote]

I wish they did get their kinks out this year. Remember all the drops DeShaun Jackson had against the Skins? We can expect games like that from Thomas and Kelly next year, while DeShaun Jackson will be much improved. Next season will essentially be a learning year for our guys, since Zorn decided to red shirt them this year. Even so, either of them will be a better option than Randle-El.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=44ever;517544]4) 2 or 3 back system. Strongly agree. I just posted earlier in the FA thread how I would love to see Jacobs in the back with Portis. But Betts will do. I believe it can be very effective and add pass protection as well. We used to use this back in the old Gibbs days. And some of the best teams still do[/quote]

I agree. Betts is a player. Anyone who can put together 5 100 yard rushing games in a row has my attention. There was nothing fluky about it either. What a waste of a potentially lethal offensive weapon to only give him 60 or so carries this year. And Cartwright has proven what he can do in the open field. Give him 5 or so carries a game and I have no doubt he'll break off a few long runs for scores.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=Hail to the Redskins;517088]Well... problem is... the WR FA Class is VERY thin looking. Here's what's going to be available as of right now...

T.J. Houshmandzadeh UFA
Bobby Engram UFA
Devery Henderson UFA
Shaun McDonald UFA
Hank Baskett RFA
Jabar Gaffney UFA
Dante Hall UFA
Sam Hurd UFA
Brandon Jones UFA
Ashlie Lelie UFA
Koren Robinson UFA
Amani Toomer UFA
Roydell Williams UFA
Cedrick Wilson UFA

Houshmandzadeh is clearly the best, most proven receiver out there, which, yes, is bad news in that he'll make BANK... that's why I say we won't go after him... but I'm saying he would be what we NEED to make the rest of the offense better... looks like we have to hope for the things I listed to happen to the guys we have... lol[/quote]

WRs are a dime a dozen and they don't win championships, but they're not altogether irrelevant either. Brandon Jones will be a steal for some team (he's next year's Antonio Bryant). He's under-utilized in Tennessee's run-first offense. Kelly and/or Thomas will step-up assuming the line, Campbell and/or play-calling improves.

The 49ers don't have great WRs, but they had their way against us. The Eagles didn't have good WRs when they went to the NFC Championship game 4 years in a row. The Pats didn't have good WRs when they won those 3 Super Bowls. And there's no rule that says you can only throw to receivers when they're "open" as they're not open sometimes until the ball is already in the air or as it gets to them.

And there's always the option to throw to the backs and tight ends if the receivers are really that bad (see KC Chiefs of a few years ago). Cerrato decided to spend early picks on WRs instead of looking for a Marques Colston in the late rounds. The die is cast. We can only hope he didn't crap out with Kelly and Thomas.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=djnemo65;517393]This is absurd. Our WR's looked just fine before the offensive line broke down. While not an elite unit by a mile or three, they are good enough to be successful when the rest of the offense is functioning correctly, as we saw earlier in the season. There are too many more glaring needs to be addressed on this team before we can even think about bringing in another wideout.

Moreover, I really do expect more from at least one of the rookies next year, and I think it's conceivable they could all contribute a lot more. Regardless though, when we drafted 3 receivers in the second round last year Vinnie effectively made our bed for the next couple seasons.[/quote]

Our receivers looked good when?

I know Santana Moss played well early when teams played soft & didn't cover him over the top that much...

But Randel El was great? Thomas? Kelly? Thrash? huh?

It's so funny that it's ALL about our O-Line... without anyone giving credence to the fact that really, the rest of the league figured out Zorn's SHORT WCO passing game and started playing much closer with their DBs and Safeties.

I mean, does anyone else remember the shirt slant to Moss, the WR screen to Moss working really well ealry on beut never again after about week 6-7?

Plus, the DBs starting playing tight off the lines, knowing our receivers can't get space on their own or get off of jams & that the would be running short-mid range routes... Suddenly, Campbell doesn't have big windows to throw into and the defense is closer to the line of scrimmage, taking away the 10 yard runs Portis was running off with regularity.

The only game late where the opposing defense played soft was the Seahawks game. They played soft, no blitzes, and we were in 3 WR sets (especially the 2nd half) and Portis was getting CHUNKS of yards because the defense Seattle put out there facing a 3 WR set. The line wasn't so horrible that day... and I can tell you our receivers weren't great that day either....

Yes, our line isn't the HOGS of the 80's, but the are not a glaring weakness like our WR corp.

Also... When I started the thread, I said that no way in heck should we draft a receiver any time soon, I threw out the idea of Houshmandzadeh as he will be a UFA. He's the only one I'd go out and pay for in this years FA class... otherwise, my point was, that we have to HOPE that Thomas gets smarter or Kelly has knee transplants... in order to see any real difference next year in the pass game (and our line will look "terrible" to everyone else again) ... lol

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=44Deezel;517515]The receivers are fine. Zorn needs to find ways to better utilize the backs & TEs, protect the QB and develop either Thomas OR Kelley (hopefully both). They have much bigger needs elsewhere.

Remember how crappy the Falcons receivers were when Vick was their QB? Remember all the Vick apologists saying he had no one credible to throw to? Remember all the talk of TO going to the Falcons and how that would improve Vick's numbers?

Well those same WRs are there now and look at what they did this year. Roddy White's a pro-bowler. What's different? Hmmm...[/quote]

Whats different ... is the QB! They don't have new linemen.

Are you saying get rid of Campbell?

If you watched the Playoff game today they showed that their line gave up 47 sacks last year and 17 this year... and the line says its all Matt Ryan for getting the ball out quickly like he is supposed to.

I think Campbell wants to get the ball out quickly, but doesn;t want to throw into tight coverage and get a pick. When receivers aren't open its hard to run a pass offense.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=44Deezel;517539]I think the best teams are the ones who get the most out of what they've got (see Bill Parcells). Here's how I think the Skins can improve the passing game:

1) Move the pocket - If the O line is struggling, then move the pocket or get good at HB screens and other plays that negate a good pass rush, etc. Zorn should have called more bootlegs this season, including naked bootlegs on the goal line. Campbell is good at making tacklers miss once he gets going, so I don't know why he couldn't rush for more TDs.

2) More imaginative play calling - we've seen Portis and ARE be successful throwing the ball (remember the TD pass from ARE to Cooley against the Eagles) and other teams made effective use of the Wildcat formation all season long. Look at what the Ravens did all year and the Steelers used to do under Cowher. They were good for 2-3 "trick" plays every game, and we're effective running those plays because it was part of their identity.

3) Get the backs involved in the passing game - I hear lots of complaints about our receivers, but the last time I checked, RBs were allowed to catch balls as well. Why Portis hasn't been more of a receiving threat during his career I'll never understand. Who were the Chiefs all-world wide receivers when they were one of the top scoring offenses in the league? Does the name Priest Holmes ring a bell?

4) Go to a 2 or 3 back system - Feature backs are almost a thing of the past. And even teams that do rely heavily on a primary RB get significant production from the backup RB (Chargers, Vikings, Falcons, etc.). The best running teams platoon their backs - Giants, Titans, Panthers, Patriots, etc. Having a consistent, healthy running game will help the passing game remain a factor all season long. The Skins can't continue to give Portis 340 plus carries each year. I think the Skins can use Portis, Betts and Cartwright much like the Ravens and Giants use their backs.

5) Get young and better on the O line - Campbell is a servicable QB when he has time to throw. Better play calling, another year in Zorn's system (this excuse gets discredited time and time again by other teams, but OK), better pass protection and the development of Thomas and/or Kelly and Davis, should produce better results next year. Remember, the Skins just needed to beat the Bengals, Rams and 49ers to be 11-5 and in the playoffs (I know, ifs and buts are like elbows). Someone said we used to have great receivers when we won those Super Bowls in the 80s and early 90s. No we didn't We had great O lines and pretty decent QBs (none of which are in the HOF). Rick Sanders had 9 catches for 193 yards in the Super Bowl for crying out loud. Who the hell is Ricky Sanders?

6) Encourage Campbell to take more chances - Maybe it was Gibbs that did it to him, but Campbell has developed a crippling phobia of interceptions. I know he only had 6, but his team also finished 8-8 and out of the playoffs. To throw for only 156 yards in a loss against a poor pass defense in a meaningless game is a sin. Let 'er rip! I remember when Brian Griese had 19 TDs and only 4 INTs for the Broncos. How did his career turn out? And I've got news for everyone who complains that our receivers never get open. It's the NFL. Receivers aren't always open. Receivers make plays ALL THE TIME with defeners draped all over them. And if our wide outs are too short to out jump the defender, then throw the ball short and let the wide receiver come back to the ball. The Skins once had a receiving corp that was so good it was given a nickname. That nickname was "The Smurfs". So spare me the garbage about our receivers being too short. The single best season produced by a Redskins WR was delivered by Santana Moss with friggin Mark Brunell as his QB. Where will TO, Randy Moss, Andre Johnson and Calvin Johnson be watching the Super Bowl from? They're living rooms.

The Skins had less pass interference calls than any other team in the league and couldn't outscore the first team to go 0-16. Maybe if Zorn gave Campbell the green light to take more chances, he would be more willing to throw into tight coverage. This would solve his problem of holding onto the ball too long. Single coverage is open in the NFL.

The bottom line is that the wide receivers aren't the problem. Most of the biggest and baddest receivers in the game will be sitting this year's Super Bowl out while a guy like Ricky Sanders or Deion Brach could very well be the difference maker.[/quote]

Great post. Agreed on all points. I don't think Betts is a good enough back to effectively run a 2 back system because he needs to be 'the guy' in order for him to be effective. We need a sparkplug back there (SPROLES) who can make things happen anytime he touches the ball.

I think one of Zorn's biggest challenges with JC is un-coaching the Gibbs fear of turnovers. You've got to take chances in order to be great. He's so used to look, look, hold it rather than take 7 steps and throw it downfield even if your man is covered. Don't take stupid risks, but you've got to take chances as an NFL QB.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=44Deezel;517527]TJ is going to cost too much. If they can find a diamond in the rough, I say go for it. Look at what Tampa got out of Antonio Bryant this year. Otherwise, they need to work with what they've got.

The top WRs in the league will likely be watching the Super Bowl from home this year (just like the top cornerbacks). WRs, like most skill positions other than the QB, don't win championships. Good coaching, good line play and great defense is what it takes.[/quote]

So Randy Moss, Wes Welker (Moss makes defenses play softer allowing Welker to run our type routes underneath), & Burress watched the Super Bowl last year?

How about Reggie Wayne & Marvin Harrison? Plaxico Burress last year?

I totally agree that lines have to get you to a championship, BUT you have to have dependable receivers who can get open, make tough catches, especially around the endzone to WIN championships (Tyree's catch & Burress' TD comes to mind from last years SB)

I think our line needs DEPTH, but they proved for the first 8 weeks what they can do when the passing game is a least A LITTLE successful to keep other teams out of the box... I mean, Portis sets a record for consecutive 150 yard games midseason & now all of the sudden they are terrible.

I'll say again... it goes back to defenses making the adjustment to not play soft any more and let our little scat-type receivers get easy space off the line for their little 6-8 yard routes... they took those away and BAM, now no passing threat, pack the box, no more running game, no receivers open when Campbell plants back foot, etc.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=Ruhskins;517407]I agree with everyone that states that the offensive line is a much bigger priority than the WR position. Our Wideouts were fine in the first half of the season, when there was some semblance of pass protection, and Portis ran the ball well.

If we are going to look at tweaking our WR group, then I really don't think you need to get a TJ Housh. I think our rooks have talent, and have the potential to be very good next season. They got their kinks out of the way this year, and they will have a full training camp to get them up to speed, which in turn will help them get in sync with Campbell. That along with Moss, ARE, and Cooley, I just don't see the need to bring or draft anymore wideouts, save maybe for a replacement for Thrash.

Earlier I criticized the coaching of wideouts, b/c I noticed throughout the latter part of the season, that in those rare moments when Campbell had time to throw, the WRs were not open beyond the 1st down marker. I think this even happened earlier in the season when they were doing well. So maybe a new position coach can help develop the rookies, and help our wideouts get open.[/quote]

I didnt state the obvious... Our O-Line problems are the direct reason we couldnt get the passing game in rhythm. But i can only believe in what ive seen. Moss, Housh, Thomas looks like a great 1 2 3 to me. I dont mind Randle El on the roster either, hed be able to do what he did in Pittsburgh as a Role Player solely.. Situationally the 3rd Slot, 4th Slot, and handle special teams. If we can get Houshy cheap... and improve our O-Line in the offseason.. Wed be passing with the best next year.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=redskins5044;517535]randle el isnt tradable[/quote]


That stinks, didn't know that. I like Randle El, but he might be the only one that would be worth anything in terms of trade bait. I guess only by trading down we will get more picks, but we do need high round linemen, so there goes the more picks plan.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=Hail to the Redskins;517561]Whats different ... is the QB! They don't have new linemen.

Are you saying get rid of Campbell?

If you watched the Playoff game today they showed that their line gave up 47 sacks last year and 17 this year... and the line says its all Matt Ryan for getting the ball out quickly like he is supposed to.

I think Campbell wants to get the ball out quickly, but doesn;t want to throw into tight coverage and get a pick. When receivers aren't open its hard to run a pass offense.[/quote]

I hope we can do right by the line, or next season will be a repeat of this season.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=44Deezel;517539]I think the best teams are the ones who get the most out of what they've got (see Bill Parcells). Here's how I think the Skins can improve the passing game:

1) Move the pocket - If the O line is struggling, then move the pocket or get good at HB screens and other plays that negate a good pass rush, etc. Zorn should have called more bootlegs this season, including naked bootlegs on the goal line. Campbell is good at making tacklers miss once he gets going, so I don't know why he couldn't rush for more TDs.

2) More imaginative play calling - we've seen Portis and ARE be successful throwing the ball (remember the TD pass from ARE to Cooley against the Eagles) and other teams made effective use of the Wildcat formation all season long. Look at what the Ravens did all year and the Steelers used to do under Cowher. They were good for 2-3 "trick" plays every game, and we're effective running those plays because it was part of their identity.

3) Get the backs involved in the passing game - I hear lots of complaints about our receivers, but the last time I checked, RBs were allowed to catch balls as well. Why Portis hasn't been more of a receiving threat during his career I'll never understand. Who were the Chiefs all-world wide receivers when they were one of the top scoring offenses in the league? Does the name Priest Holmes ring a bell?

4) Go to a 2 or 3 back system - Feature backs are almost a thing of the past. And even teams that do rely heavily on a primary RB get significant production from the backup RB (Chargers, Vikings, Falcons, etc.). The best running teams platoon their backs - Giants, Titans, Panthers, Patriots, etc. Having a consistent, healthy running game will help the passing game remain a factor all season long. The Skins can't continue to give Portis 340 plus carries each year. I think the Skins can use Portis, Betts and Cartwright much like the Ravens and Giants use their backs.

5) Get young and better on the O line - Campbell is a servicable QB when he has time to throw. Better play calling, another year in Zorn's system (this excuse gets discredited time and time again by other teams, but OK), better pass protection and the development of Thomas and/or Kelly and Davis, should produce better results next year. Remember, the Skins just needed to beat the Bengals, Rams and 49ers to be 11-5 and in the playoffs (I know, ifs and buts are like elbows). Someone said we used to have great receivers when we won those Super Bowls in the 80s and early 90s. No we didn't We had great O lines and pretty decent QBs (none of which are in the HOF). Rick Sanders had 9 catches for 193 yards in the Super Bowl for crying out loud. Who the hell is Ricky Sanders?

6) Encourage Campbell to take more chances - Maybe it was Gibbs that did it to him, but Campbell has developed a crippling phobia of interceptions. I know he only had 6, but his team also finished 8-8 and out of the playoffs. To throw for only 156 yards in a loss against a poor pass defense in a meaningless game is a sin. Let 'er rip! I remember when Brian Griese had 19 TDs and only 4 INTs for the Broncos. How did his career turn out? And I've got news for everyone who complains that our receivers never get open. It's the NFL. Receivers aren't always open. Receivers make plays ALL THE TIME with defeners draped all over them. And if our wide outs are too short to out jump the defender, then throw the ball short and let the wide receiver come back to the ball. The Skins once had a receiving corp that was so good it was given a nickname. That nickname was "The Smurfs". So spare me the garbage about our receivers being too short. The single best season produced by a Redskins WR was delivered by Santana Moss with friggin Mark Brunell as his QB. Where will TO, Randy Moss, Andre Johnson and Calvin Johnson be watching the Super Bowl from? They're living rooms.

The Skins had less pass interference calls than any other team in the league and couldn't outscore the first team to go 0-16. Maybe if Zorn gave Campbell the green light to take more chances, he would be more willing to throw into tight coverage. This would solve his problem of holding onto the ball too long. Single coverage is open in the NFL.

The bottom line is that the wide receivers aren't the problem. Most of the biggest and baddest receivers in the game will be sitting this year's Super Bowl out while a guy like Ricky Sanders or Deion Brach could very well be the difference maker.[/quote]

I sort of agree with you about Gibbs JC and pickaphobia. Just look at what happened to Patrick Ramsey. Poor bastard throws a pick and his career goes into the toilet!!!!!! Seeing that would make me leary of throwing any errant balls!!!

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=Hail to the Redskins;517564]So Randy Moss, Wes Welker (Moss makes defenses play softer allowing Welker to run our type routes underneath), & Burress watched the Super Bowl last year?

How about Reggie Wayne & Marvin Harrison? Plaxico Burress last year?

I totally agree that lines have to get you to a championship, BUT you have to have dependable receivers who can get open, make tough catches, especially around the endzone to WIN championships (Tyree's catch & Burress' TD comes to mind from last years SB)

I think our line needs DEPTH, but they proved for the first 8 weeks what they can do when the passing game is a least A LITTLE successful to keep other teams out of the box... I mean, Portis sets a record for consecutive 150 yard games midseason & now all of the sudden they are terrible.

I'll say again... it goes back to defenses making the adjustment to not play soft any more and let our little scat-type receivers get easy space off the line for their little 6-8 yard routes... they took those away and BAM, now no passing threat, pack the box, no more running game, no receivers open when Campbell plants back foot, etc.[/quote]

Harrison and Wayne, with their Hall of Fame QB, just lost to the Chargers and their scary-talented wide receivers;) Throwing to RBs and TEs didn't look half bad. Kind of reminded me of the Chiefs a few years ago. Maybe we should have tried that.

As for the Patriots, they were consistently good and won 3 Super Bowls before Welker and Moss got there. Remember Deion Branch? That said, if the Skins could get a player like Randy Moss for a 4th round pick, I'm all for it. And the Patriots have the kind of system that could probably take a guy like ARE and make him produce like Welker;)

As for Tyree, was he really "OPEN"? And can Campbell make the kind of play Eli made to get the pass off? If so, I haven't seen it yet.

Call it depth or whatever you want, but the line(s) has to be the priority. Too much age and too many injuries. Cerrato took Kelly, Thomas and Davis early last year, so it's up to the coaches to get them ready to play. If the WRs can't get open, design more plays to the backs and tight ends, run some gadget plays, get all your RBs involved in the running game, move the pocket around and most importantly, throw them the ball anyway. NFL receivers don't have to be open to make catches.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

We could've used another OL man and one less WR in the last draft but hindsight is 20/20.
Don't use another draft pick for another WR whatever you do. At least not this year. TJ would be good if we can get him at a moderate price. It seems to me that the more money they spend on a guy the worse he does. I don't see the point in keeping ARE if we can get something for him besides dead cap if there is any.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=44Deezel;517585]Harrison and Wayne, with their Hall of Fame QB, just lost to the Chargers and their scary-talented wide receivers;) Throwing to RBs and TEs didn't look half bad. Kind of reminded me of the Chiefs a few years ago. Maybe we should have tried that.

As for the Patriots, they were consistently good and won 3 Super Bowls before Welker and Moss got there. Remember Deion Branch? That said, if the Skins could get a player like Randy Moss for a 4th round pick, I'm all for it. And the Patriots have the kind of system that could probably take a guy like ARE and make him produce like Welker;)

As for Tyree, was he really "OPEN"? And can Campbell make the kind of play Eli made to get the pass off? If so, I haven't seen it yet.

Call it depth or whatever you want, but the line(s) has to be the priority. Too much age and too many injuries. Cerrato took Kelly, Thomas and Davis early last year, so it's up to the coaches to get them ready to play. If the WRs can't get open, design more plays to the backs and tight ends, run some gadget plays, get all your RBs involved in the running game, move the pocket around and most importantly, throw them the ball anyway. NFL receivers don't have to be open to make catches.[/quote]

Excellent post Deezel!!! The receivers will take time, signing more isn't the answer. It's about the O-LINE. That's where games are won and lost. The Patriots line played great last year until the Super Bowl....that's when they lost.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=Hail to the Redskins;517561]Whats different ... is the QB! They don't have new linemen.

Are you saying get rid of Campbell?

If you watched the Playoff game today they showed that their line gave up 47 sacks last year and 17 this year... and the line says its all Matt Ryan for getting the ball out quickly like he is supposed to.

I think Campbell wants to get the ball out quickly, but doesn;t want to throw into tight coverage and get a pick. When receivers aren't open its hard to run a pass offense.[/quote]

Kind of. I said it before, 156 yards in a meaningless game is inexplicable. Who cares about INTs in that case? Open or not, let 'er rip. The receivers did have the dropsies, but Campbell made some bad passes as well (ARE was open on a bomb and Campbell overthrew him). Campbell had plenty of time all day as well. I still think Kelly or Thomas will step up and ARE can move into the 3rd slot. No need to shop for WRs.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=53Fan;517587]Excellent post Deezel!!! The receivers will take time, signing more isn't the answer. It's about the O-LINE. That's where games are won and lost. The Patriots line played great last year until the Super Bowl....that's when they lost.[/quote]

Damn Strait. O-Line! The only thing we've been consistently bad at is offense and it all starts with the line. Duke Robinson, Smith from Baylor, or Mack. Draft these guys!!!

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=Trample the Elderly;517586]We could've used another OL man and one less WR in the last draft but hindsight is 20/20.
Don't use another draft pick for another WR whatever you do. At least not this year. TJ would be good if we can get him at a moderate price. It seems to me that the more money they spend on a guy the worse he does. I don't see the point in keeping ARE if we can get something for him besides dead cap if there is any.[/quote]

Receivers can be deceiving. It's one of the most situational positions there is. Did we not learn from Lloyd? Remember Peerless Price? How about all the receivers Favre made look good over the years (Javon Walker, Antonio Freeman) or Brady (Branch). Hell, even Coles didn't pan out.... and oh yeah, Randle El. "Good" WRs go to other teams all of the time and under-produce. Develop the young guys. Anyone that plays Fantasy Football knows that year 3 is a big year for many wide-outs. Guys go from 300 yard seasons to 1200 yard seasons every year. Kelly and/or Thomas could be future studs.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=Skins4L;517569]I didnt state the obvious... Our O-Line problems are the direct reason we couldnt get the passing game in rhythm. But i can only believe in what ive seen. Moss, Housh, Thomas looks like a great 1 2 3 to me. I dont mind Randle El on the roster either, hed be able to do what he did in Pittsburgh as a Role Player solely.. Situationally the 3rd Slot, 4th Slot, and handle special teams. If we can get Houshy cheap... and improve our O-Line in the offseason.. Wed be passing with the best next year.[/quote]

I actually think Brandon Jones would be a better fit. Not that I'm endorsing any move to acquire another receiver. But if I had to pick from that list, I'd take Jones. He's young, tall, athletic and probably much less expensive than Housh. I can see Housh failing as the #1 on another team... much like Peerless Price with the Falcons. I could be wrong though.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=44Deezel;517539] Rick Sanders had 9 catches for 193 yards in the Super Bowl for crying out loud. Who the hell is Ricky Sanders?
[/quote]

He had 2 1000 yard seasons with us man, maybe not a legacy or anything, but worth mentioning

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=44Deezel;517593]I actually think Brandon Jones would be a better fit. Not that I'm endorsing any move to acquire another receiver. But if I had to pick from that list, I'd take Jones. He's young, tall, athletic and probably much less expensive than Housh. I can see Housh failing as the #1 on another team... much like Peerless Price with the Falcons. I could be wrong though.[/quote]

I agree. Lets just say for sh*ts n giggles... Housh gets signed... Id hold him at the 2, im sure his presence alone would free up Santana STILL at the 1.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=tryfuhl;517602]He had 2 1000 yard seasons with us man, maybe not a legacy or anything, but worth mentioning[/quote]

2 whole seasons? Just kidding. Much respect to Sanders, even though he also had 7 seasons ranging from 286 to 727 yards. My point was that you can win with guys like Sanders. He's only 5'11. The league is filled with receivers who can put up great stats in the right situation (and vice versa - poor stats in the wrong situation - El, Loyd, all the WRs the Skins have overpaid for the last 10 years). As much praise as we lavish on Santana Moss, only has 3 1000 yard seasons in his 8 seasons.


There are great bargains to be had at WR, but the Skins have shown they're not good bargain hunters. They should spend elsewhere.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

still..
Devin Thomas... 3 Rush Attempts (3 reverses) 53 yards and a TD. Weve somehow, someway gotta make it a point to get the ball in his hands.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

Get the ball in Deven Eleven's hands, and magic will happen! We need no more recievers for a while! Does anyone know why Rhinehart did not play at all this year, and will he be playing next year at a starting capacity?

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

Per JLC:

Rookie Devin Thomas has not endeared himself to coaches and teammates with his attitude and work ethic. With a swagger that was not backed up by his play, he did not do enough to get himself physically and mentally ready to play, and many in the organization wonder if he ever will. He could be surly, he enjoyed the nightlife and he never made any real strides toward becoming a regular part of the offense. He continually ran poor routes - often three yards or more too deep or too shallow - which is a massive difference in an intricate precision system. He didn't do nearly enough to earn the confidence of the quarterbacks. He was drafted to be the bigger, deep threat to complement Moss on the opposite side, replacing Brandon Lloyd, and ended up being similar to Lloyd in far too many ways. [B]Thomas has already talked about the need to get away from football for a while, which, for as little as he played, is alarming.[/B] He needs to work his tail off all offseason to be ready to help this team.


Great to here from this POS. I guess aging vets aren't the only ones just collecting a check around here.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

Also remember, Thomas only played one year of real college football. He will continue to get better the more he practices with JC, and learns tricks of the trade from the veteran recievers. I feel that he will make great strides this year, and by year 3 will be looking like what everyone seems to have been expecting in year one. This is the first year in a long time I remember so many rookie WR's making an instant impact on thier team. It is disapointing that we didin't get to enjoy the same breakout rookies like the Eagles, Cowboys, etc, but if we can get long term success with these rookie guys, we will be in great shape for the future!

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=WaldSkins;518629]Per JLC:

Rookie Devin Thomas has not endeared himself to coaches and teammates with his attitude and work ethic. With a swagger that was not backed up by his play, he did not do enough to get himself physically and mentally ready to play, and many in the organization wonder if he ever will. He could be surly, he enjoyed the nightlife and he never made any real strides toward becoming a regular part of the offense. He continually ran poor routes - often three yards or more too deep or too shallow - which is a massive difference in an intricate precision system. He didn't do nearly enough to earn the confidence of the quarterbacks. He was drafted to be the bigger, deep threat to complement Moss on the opposite side, replacing Brandon Lloyd, and ended up being similar to Lloyd in far too many ways. [B]Thomas has already talked about the need to get away from football for a while, which, for as little as he played, is alarming.[/B] He needs to work his tail off all offseason to be ready to help this team.


Great to here from this POS. I guess aging vets aren't the only ones just collecting a check around here.[/quote]

JLC also said the Redskins should have drafted Eddie Royal who "fit the mold of the big, target reciever they were seeking" Really? He did, did he? The 5'10" 180 lb. Royal was just what they needed in a big receiver to complement the 5'10" 185 lb. Antwaan Randle El and the 5'10" 200 lb. Santana Moss?

Yeah, this is why people think JLC is a joke.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

Just read JLC's review of the DEs where he knocks the Redskins for not thinking Gaines Adams was a sexy enough pick. He doesn't even mention the fact that Adams was drafted before the Redskins drafted anyway. Perfect example of what I meant in another thread when I said sometimes people make stuff up just to bash the Redskins Front Office

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=WaldSkins;518629]Per JLC:

Rookie Devin Thomas has not endeared himself to coaches and teammates with his attitude and work ethic. With a swagger that was not backed up by his play, he did not do enough to get himself physically and mentally ready to play, and many in the organization wonder if he ever will. He could be surly, he enjoyed the nightlife and he never made any real strides toward becoming a regular part of the offense. He continually ran poor routes - often three yards or more too deep or too shallow - which is a massive difference in an intricate precision system. He didn't do nearly enough to earn the confidence of the quarterbacks. He was drafted to be the bigger, deep threat to complement Moss on the opposite side, replacing Brandon Lloyd, and ended up being similar to Lloyd in far too many ways. [B]Thomas has already talked about the need to get away from football for a while, which, for as little as he played, is alarming.[/B] He needs to work his tail off all offseason to be ready to help this team.


Great to here from this POS. I guess aging vets aren't the only ones just collecting a check around here.[/quote]

I was about to post this too. While JLC is definitely wrong about Royal's size, Royal did lead the combine wr's in the bench press, he's strong and doesn't get knocked off balance at the line. More importantly perhaps, Royal is by all accounts a great guy & was eager to learn. Everybody at VT always praised him & spoke of how humble he is. Brandon Stokely said he got a call from Royal right after the draft & he was asking the vet reciever for advice on learning the playbook. Gibbs might've jumped on this guy had he been here, he's got all the personal traits for success it seems.

I don't expect anyone to have the same "character" standards as Joe Gibbs, but in this case I really hope DT isn't as much of a problem as JLC says he is. I know JLC gets bashed here for some of his opinions (and sometimes errors), but over time I don't think he puts anything in print about a player's work ethic & character until he's got a good body of evidence. Take a look at his writing about Loyd e.g.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=SmootSmack;518642]JLC also said the Redskins should have drafted Eddie Royal who "fit the mold of the big, target reciever they were seeking" Really? He did, did he? The 5'10" 180 lb. Royal was just what they needed in a big receiver to complement the 5'10" 185 lb. Antwaan Randle El and the 5'10" 200 lb. Santana Moss?

Yeah, this is why people think JLC is a joke.[/quote]

I was thinking the same exact thing. Imagine how much the FO would have been ripped if they drafted Royal or DeSean Jackson? By the way, the other 'big' WR that we were considering in the draft James Hardy had 9 catches for 87 yards.

If this front office traded for a healthy Tom Brady JLC would criticize them for him being a character risk for having a baby out of wedlock.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=freddyg12;518659] Brandon Stokely said he got a call from Royal right after the draft & he was asking the vet reciever for advice on learning the playbook.[/quote]

Good post. The statement above, if true, helps illistrate an important point about the role of system and coaching in player success.
The Broncos system has been in place forever. Its not new.
Although they have a new WR coach the all the other coaching staff knows the system, the HC, the OC, assistants etc.

They also have veterans that can help the rookies learn the playbook.
The Skins offense is new. Its new to the OC, its new to the WR coach, its new to the rest of the staff and the assistants. Its also new to our veterans. Moss and ARE can't help the rookies as much as Stoley could help Royal b/c they were learning the playbook themselves.

Our young guys will catch, remember its a new system.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=SmootSmack;518655]Just read JLC's review of the DEs where he knocks the Redskins for not thinking Gaines Adams was a sexy enough pick. He doesn't even mention the fact that Adams was drafted before the Redskins drafted anyway. Perfect example of what I meant in another thread when I said sometimes people make stuff up just to bash the Redskins Front Office[/quote]A real front office would have given Tampa or Detroit way, way too much to trade up and get a non-sexy pick like Adams! I don't know why we don't just trade entire future drafts for non-sexy defensive ends.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=freddyg12;518659]I was about to post this too. While JLC is definitely wrong about Royal's size, Royal did lead the combine wr's in the bench press, he's strong and doesn't get knocked off balance at the line. More importantly perhaps, Royal is by all accounts a great guy & was eager to learn. Everybody at VT always praised him & spoke of how humble he is. Brandon Stokely said he got a call from Royal right after the draft & he was asking the vet reciever for advice on learning the playbook. Gibbs might've jumped on this guy had he been here, he's got all the personal traits for success it seems.

I don't expect anyone to have the same "character" standards as Joe Gibbs, but in this case I really hope DT isn't as much of a problem as JLC says he is. I know JLC gets bashed here for some of his opinions (and sometimes errors), but over time I don't think he puts anything in print about a player's work ethic & character until he's got a good body of evidence. Take a look at his writing about Loyd e.g.[/quote]Well, at least we've got the 4th WR position filled through 2011. That's got to be worth something, right?