Re: Bucs fire Coach Jon Gruden and GM Bruce Allen
 

[quote=Ruhskins;521154]Well Chucky did do a good job with headcases like Keyshawn and Warren Sapp. The question is would Gruden wan to go to that mess that is the Dallas Cowpukes[/quote]

I think Gruden would be a good fit in Dallas, and anywhere else for that matter. We complain about lack of talent around here, but it's nothing compared to the Bucs. He worked wonders down there, in my opinion. They were a mess at QB, RB and WR every year he was there. How he managed to keep them competitive is beyond me. 9-3 was an mirage.

Re: Bucs fire Coach Jon Gruden and GM Bruce Allen
 

[quote=44Deezel;521237]I think Gruden would be a good fit in Dallas, and anywhere else for that matter. We complain about lack of talent around here, but it's nothing compared to the Bucs. He worked wonders down there, in my opinion. They were a mess at QB, RB and WR every year he was there. How he managed to keep them competitive is beyond me. 9-3 was an mirage.[/quote]

I think that had as much to do with Monte Kiffin as Gruden.

Re: Bucs fire Coach Jon Gruden and GM Bruce Allen
 

[quote=MdBluefinCrab;521176]Wow, just...wow. Wish he could come here but with our front office and ownership, we know that's never going to happen.
He's a damn good motivator but also a stubborn bastard as evidenced by his refusal to start Garcia and only doing so when he had no other choice.
He might have had only one appearance at the Super Bowl but he had the Bucs in contention each and every year.[/quote]

I agree. They had no right being as good as they were under Gruden. Their RBs were always injured, their best WR was Joey Galloway and their best QB was Jeff Garcia (a backup on most teams). Even when Garcia was out with injury, Gruden found ways to win games with Simms and Grabowski. I know their D was always solid, but it was more on par with ours and in no way elite (except for the first couple years). He's a good coach.

Re: Bucs fire Coach Jon Gruden and GM Bruce Allen
 

[quote=53Fan;521238]I think that had as much to do with Monte Kiffin as Gruden.[/quote]

Well then Kiffin deserves some credit for Gruden being fired, because his defense got lit up at the end of the season. The Bucs D has been solid the last few years, much like the Skins D, but they haven't been an elite unit for a while.

Re: Bucs fire Coach Jon Gruden and GM Bruce Allen
 

[quote=44Deezel;521237]I think Gruden would be a good fit in Dallas, and anywhere else for that matter. We complain about lack of talent around here, but it's nothing compared to the Bucs. He worked wonders down there, in my opinion. They were a mess at QB, RB and WR every year he was there. How he managed to keep them competitive is beyond me. 9-3 was an mirage.[/quote]

I agree with some of this, however the Bucs (and I guess that's why the GM got fired) should have done something at QB. They kept piling up these backup QBs at best (Garcia, Griese, Plummer) and not make an effort to get a really good QB. I think they used to have a good running game, and got a lot out of the likes of Joey Galloway. I think if the Bucs had gotten a good QB, they would have fared better. Garcia was prob their best QB, but his age is showing.

Re: Bucs fire Coach Jon Gruden and GM Bruce Allen
 

[quote=44Deezel;521246]Well then Kiffin deserves some credit for Gruden being fired, because his defense got lit up at the end of the season. The Bucs D has been solid the last few years, much like the Skins D, but they haven't been an elite unit for a while.[/quote]

Maybe. I think it's interesting though that Gruden gets fired after the same season Kiffin announces he's leaving.

Re: Bucs fire Coach Jon Gruden and GM Bruce Allen
 

[quote=53Fan;521253]Maybe. I think it's interesting though that Gruden gets fired after the same season Kiffin announces he's leaving.[/quote]

You're right. Probably as good a time as any to start fresh with a whole new regime. I'm sure that had something to do with it.

Re: Bucs fire Coach Jon Gruden and GM Bruce Allen
 

[quote=53Fan;521253]Maybe. I think it's interesting though that Gruden gets fired after the same season Kiffin announces he's leaving.[/quote]Well, I mean, makes sense to me. Kiffin was going anyway, why wait until Gruden loses a bunch of seasons in a row to jettison him when you're already moving the DC out now.

They must love Raheem Morris a lot, and good for them. There's no reason to sit him at defensive coordinator behind Gruden until you're tired of him. Just make the switch now when you know he's not going to be your head coach for the forseeable future.

Re: Bucs fire Coach Jon Gruden and GM Bruce Allen
 

[quote=Ruhskins;521250]I agree with some of this, however the Bucs (and I guess that's why the GM got fired) should have done something at QB. They kept piling up these backup QBs at best (Garcia, Griese, Plummer) and not make an effort to get a really good QB. I think they used to have a good running game, and got a lot out of the likes of Joey Galloway. I think if the Bucs had gotten a good QB, they would have fared better. Garcia was prob their best QB, but his age is showing.[/quote]

Couldn't agree more. There's a reason no one else wants Garcia as their starter. They would have been one of the better teams in the NFC with a better QB. Actually, they pretty much were one of the better teams in the NFC year in and year out. A good QB would have gotten them over the hump.

Re: Bucs fire Coach Jon Gruden and GM Bruce Allen
 

Hell no! i dont want his fake chucky ass in D.C., I'm glad he got fired, he lived off T.Dungy team until it all ran out then, what did he build? thats right not a got-damn thing, I though he was over-rated trash. every year, after he won the SB, with Dungy team, he hasnt gotten better..........F#$% Chuck!

Re: Bucs fire Coach Jon Gruden and GM Bruce Allen
 

How do you get better than winning the super bowl? Win the Senior Bowl in that same year?

Re: Bucs fire Coach Jon Gruden and GM Bruce Allen
 

[quote=DarkKnight;521265]Hell no! i dont want his fake chucky ass in D.C., I'm glad he got fired, he lived off T.Dungy team until it all ran out then, what did he build? thats right not a got-damn thing, I though he was over-rated trash. every year, after he won the SB, with Dungy team, he hasnt gotten better..........F#$% Chuck![/quote]

Gruden had 2 winning seasons out of the four seasons he was with the Raides (under Al Davis nonetheless). He actually had no losing seasons, going:

'98: 8-8
'99: 8-8
'00: 12-4 (went to AFC Championship)
'01: 10-6 (lost to NE in the "Tuck" game in the playoffs

Yes, he took Tony Dungy's team in 2002 to the Superbowl (with a 12-4 record), but Bill Callahan took Gruden's team to the Superbowl as well.

Gruden actually had two losing seasons with "Tony Dungy's team" after winning the Superbowl....so I don't think your theory of riding Dungy's team holds much. He has had 4 winning seasons out of the seven seasons he's been with Tampa Bay. Making it six winning seasons, five division crowns, five playoff appearances and one Superbowl in 11 years. So yeah, he's overrated and sucks. :doh:

Re: Bucs fire Coach Jon Gruden and GM Bruce Allen
 

[quote=Ruhskins;521272]Gruden had 2 winning seasons out of the four seasons he was with the Raides (under Al Davis nonetheless). He actually had no losing seasons, going:

[B]'98: 8-8
'99: 8-8
'00: 12-4 ([/B]went to AFC Championship)
'01: 10-6 (lost to NE in the "Tuck" game in the playoffs

Yes, he took Tony Dungy's team in 2002 to the Superbowl (with a 12-4 record), but Bill Callahan took Gruden's team to the Superbowl as well.

Gruden actually had two losing seasons with "Tony Dungy's team" after winning the Superbowl....so I don't think your theory of riding Dungy's team holds much. He has had 4 winning seasons out of the seven seasons he's been with Tampa Bay. Making it six winning seasons, five division crowns, five playoff appearances and one Superbowl in 11 years. So yeah, he's overrated and sucks. :doh:[/quote]

Any chance of Zorn making it to the 3rd year if he goes 8-8 next year?

Re: Bucs fire Coach Jon Gruden and GM Bruce Allen
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;521275]Any chance of Zorn making it to the 3rd year if he goes 8-8 next year?[/quote]

Interesting...Zorn could very well be fired if he goes 8-8, yet Al Davis did not fire Gruden after going 8-8 for two season.

Re: Bucs fire Coach Jon Gruden and GM Bruce Allen
 

[quote=Ruhskins;521284]Interesting...Zorn could very well be fired if he goes 8-8, yet Al Davis did not fire Gruden after going 8-8 for two season.[/quote]


Zorn won't make 8-8 next season unless some major changes occur with his offensive scheme. I wouldn't mind Gruden coming here as OC. The WCO sucks and is rather antiquated.

Re: Bucs fire Coach Jon Gruden and GM Bruce Allen
 

Although losing 4 straight to miss the playoffs was not great, I still see Tampa Bay as a team that has overachieved on the field the last couple of seasons. They've been able to consistently challenge for division titles and make the playoffs with rosters that appeared, to me at least, pretty flawed going into each season.

That Gruden has been able to put up respectable numbers without any playmakers of merit and a rotating stable of washed-up QB's is impressive.

So I get firing the GM because their player acquisitions have been spotty the last few years, but I don't get firing the coach.

Re: Bucs fire Coach Jon Gruden and GM Bruce Allen
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;521275]Any chance of Zorn making it to the 3rd year if he goes 8-8 next year?[/quote]

First let me say if we commit to Zorn for 2 years. You have to give him 3 years. For the following reasons.
1) to allow his first year rookies to emerge
2) to allow the WCO to develop
3) because history shows it takes a average of 3 seasons for a new coach to bring a losing team up to contension (I know about the exeptions)

I also think it will depend on how and by who we lose 8 games to. Our wins should be convinsing and dominate. Our loses should be very close and to high caliber teams. And can be contributed to mistakes of a developing WCO. The D should be dominate and there should be a sense of overall consistancy. Also would have to see us getting stronger as the season progresses.

If we have a 6-2 start and end up 8-8 Zorns gone. If we however have a 2-6 start and start to gel mid season, then a 3rd season is in order. IMO

Re: Bucs fire Coach Jon Gruden and GM Bruce Allen
 

[quote=44ever;521294]First let me say if we commit to Zorn for 2 years. You have to give him 3 years. For the following reasons.
1) to allow his first year rookies to emerge
2) to allow the WCO to develop
3) because history shows it takes a average of 3 seasons for a new coach to bring a losing team up to contension (I know about the exeptions)

I also think it will depend on how and by who we lose 8 games to. Our wins should be convinsing and dominate. Our loses should be very close and to high caliber teams. And can be contributed to mistakes of a developing WCO. The D should be dominate and there should be a sense of overall consistancy. Also would have to see us getting stronger as the season progresses.

If we have a 6-2 start and end up 8-8 Zorns gone. If we however have a 2-6 start and start to gel mid season, then a 3rd season is in order. IMO[/quote]

Yeah I agree.

It's foolish to give a rookie head coach two years to build a formidable team. What were the expectations when he was hired in the first place? Being that he didn't have credentials to even become a head coach you have to give him ample time to grow into the position.

If they fire him after 2 or 3 seasons it would show that they didn't have faith in him to start with and it would also prove the ineptitude of the front office.


The Skins better start making some long term plans at some point because their fad strategies just are not working out. Show you have some foresight and are wise enough to have faith in your own decisions...damn.

Re: Bucs fire Coach Jon Gruden and GM Bruce Allen
 

[quote=GusFrerotte;521286]Zorn won't make 8-8 next season unless some major changes occur with his offensive scheme. I wouldn't mind Gruden coming here as OC. The WCO sucks and is rather antiquated.[/quote]

What sort of offense do you think Jon "West Coast Offense" Gruden would run here?

Re: Bucs fire Coach Jon Gruden and GM Bruce Allen
 

[quote=SmootSmack;521398]What sort of offense do you think Jon "West Coast Offense" Gruden would run here?[/quote]

You beat me to it. Too funny!

Re: Bucs fire Coach Jon Gruden and GM Bruce Allen
 

[quote=SmootSmack;521398]What sort of offense do you think Jon "West Coast Offense" Gruden would run here?[/quote]

Too funny

Re: Bucs fire Coach Jon Gruden and GM Bruce Allen
 

[quote=Ruhskins;521272]Gruden had 2 winning seasons out of the four seasons he was with the Raides (under Al Davis nonetheless). He actually had no losing seasons, going:

'98: 8-8
'99: 8-8
'00: 12-4 (went to AFC Championship)
'01: 10-6 (lost to NE in the "Tuck" game in the playoffs

Yes, he took Tony Dungy's team in 2002 to the Superbowl (with a 12-4 record), but Bill Callahan took Gruden's team to the Superbowl as well.

Gruden actually had two losing seasons with "Tony Dungy's team" after winning the Superbowl....so I don't think your theory of riding Dungy's team holds much. He has had 4 winning seasons out of the seven seasons he's been with Tampa Bay. Making it six winning seasons, five division crowns, five playoff appearances and one Superbowl in 11 years. So yeah, he's overrated and sucks. :doh:[/quote]

What did he do, after he took Dungy team to the playoff's again, not a got-damn thing.. i dont give a shit about his Raiders accomplishments if thats what you wanna call it!

Re: Bucs fire Coach Jon Gruden and GM Bruce Allen
 

[quote=Trample the Elderly;520989]He already did that last year. Z is there because everyone else laughed in Danny's face.[/quote]
Stupid ass comment from stupid ass people. This stuff is old and if its all you can post about go to a Dallas site. Just some where else.

Re: Bucs fire Coach Jon Gruden and GM Bruce Allen
 

Unless they're constructive, the Danny, Zorn and Vinny comments gotta go.

Re: Bucs fire Coach Jon Gruden and GM Bruce Allen
 

[quote=44ever;521458]Unless they're constructive, the Danny, Zorn and Vinny comments gotta go.[/quote]

Do they? People earn the right to make any comment they want dick head? go pull it out of your ass and stop sounding like the boards bitch by complaining so damn much........Pus

Re: Bucs fire Coach Jon Gruden and GM Bruce Allen
 

[quote=DarkKnight;521483]Do they? People earn the right to make any comment they want dick head? go pull it out of your ass and stop sounding like the boards bitch by complaining so damn much........Pus[/quote]

Last warning

Re: Bucs fire Coach Jon Gruden and GM Bruce Allen
 

How does it go? Maybe it was firstdown?

I love internet tough guys!

Re: Bucs fire Coach Jon Gruden and GM Bruce Allen
 

[quote=Mattyk72;521118]I hope people aren't serious in suggesting that Gruden would even consider going back to Oakland.[/quote]

i wouldn,t rule it out......anythings possible nowadays...

Re: Bucs fire Coach Jon Gruden and GM Bruce Allen
 

[quote=SmootSmack;521484]Last warning[/quote]

forget it he's done

Re: Bucs fire Coach Jon Gruden and GM Bruce Allen
 

[quote=Mattyk72;521495]forget it he's done[/quote]

I know :)

I figured you'd like the honors of banning a superhero though

Re: Bucs fire Coach Jon Gruden and GM Bruce Allen
 

I think the Shannahan and Gruden firings show that there are other owners who have time limits on their coaches. You'll see Gruden going somewhere else as a HC unless he wants a year off. I was surprised he never really tackled the QB problem at the Bucs and kept ending up with veteran, journeyman QB's.

BTW - I see Zorn going three years here, unless he has terrible season next year (like less than 4 wins).

Re: Bucs fire Coach Jon Gruden and GM Bruce Allen
 

[quote=Mattyk72;521495]forget it he's done[/quote]

Thank you.

Re: Bucs fire Coach Jon Gruden and GM Bruce Allen
 

Is he really that good of a coach? Ok he won a SB his first year in Tampa but who put that team together? Not Gruden. That was in 2002 and he has been back to the playoffs twice sense then with no wins. Other than his SB year he is way under 50% in wins in the playoffs. People say he has not had alot of talent to work with but why does he get a pass on this because I'm sure he had input on the players drafted or signed in the past 7 years. One could argue that they have gone backwards ever sense he took over in 2002. As a coach in Tampa he is just a 50% win coach and if you add in his Okland years he is just above 55% winning record. Maybe I'm over looking something here but just because the guy is aways fired up and seems to be so intense does not make him a great coach. Not saying he is a bad coach but He is far from a great coach. Here are his stats. [url=http://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/GrudJo0.htm]Jon Gruden Record, Statistics, and Category Ranks - Pro-Football-Reference.com[/url]

Re: Bucs fire Coach Jon Gruden and GM Bruce Allen
 

[quote=firstdown;521595]Maybe I'm over looking something here but just because the guy is aways fired up and seems to be so intense does not make him a great coach.[/quote]

Well, that seems to be what I am hearing and reading. I can imagine Gruden's "intensity" kinda wears thin after a while. If you got only one gear when it comes to coaching, I think players start to tune him out. Not only that, I imagine he would start to get a rep around the league as players move around. I am betting in his next gig, he gets "tuned out" pretty quick.

I wouldn't want Gruden here, BUT, he would just feed Danny's "Let's try something different this year" hunger.

Re: Bucs fire Coach Jon Gruden and GM Bruce Allen
 

[quote=firstdown;521595]Is he really that good of a coach? Ok he won a SB his first year in Tampa but who put that team together? Not Gruden. That was in 2002 and he has been back to the playoffs twice sense then with no wins. Other than his SB year he is way under 50% in wins in the playoffs. People say he has not had alot of talent to work with but why does he get a pass on this because I'm sure he had input on the players drafted or signed in the past 7 years. One could argue that they have gone backwards ever sense he took over in 2002. As a coach in Tampa he is just a 50% win coach and if you add in his Okland years he is just above 55% winning record. Maybe I'm over looking something here but just because the guy is aways fired up and seems to be so intense does not make him a great coach. Not saying he is a bad coach but He is far from a great coach. Here are his stats. [url=http://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/GrudJo0.htm]Jon Gruden Record, Statistics, and Category Ranks - Pro-Football-Reference.com[/url][/quote]

The Tampa Bay team that Gruden took to the SB in 2002 may not have been his team, but the Raider team that Callahan took to the SB that same year was Gruden's. I don't think he's a great coach, but I don't think he's bad either. I posted this earlier about his 11 years as HC:

"He has had 4 winning seasons out of the seven seasons he's been with Tampa Bay. Making it six winning seasons, five division crowns, five playoff appearances and one Superbowl in 11 years."

Re: Bucs fire Coach Jon Gruden and GM Bruce Allen
 

Not to defend Gruden, but he was in a pretty bad spot to begin with. The salary cap situation when Gruden got to Tampa was on the verge of disaster when he got there (I think that was the main reason Parcells backed out of a verbal agreement to take over as coach before they brought in Gruden, and in order to get Gruden Tampa sacrificed a lot to the Raiders-around $10 million in cash, two first round picks, and two second round picks.

Re: Bucs fire Coach Jon Gruden and GM Bruce Allen
 

[quote=Ruhskins;521598]The Tampa Bay team that Gruden took to the SB in 2002 may not have been his team, but the Raider team that Callahan took to the SB that same year was Gruden's. I don't think he's a great coach, but I don't think he's bad either. I posted this earlier about his 11 years as HC:

"He has had 4 winning seasons out of the seven seasons he's been with Tampa Bay. Making it six winning seasons, five division crowns, five playoff appearances and one Superbowl in 11 years."[/quote]

Well he played with another coaches players and beat the guys he brought to Okland.

Re: Bucs fire Coach Jon Gruden and GM Bruce Allen
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;521596]Well, that seems to be what I am hearing and reading. I can imagine Gruden's "intensity" kinda wears thin after a while. If you got only one gear when it comes to coaching, I think players start to tune him out. Not only that, I imagine he would start to get a rep around the league as players move around. I am betting in his next gig, he gets "tuned out" pretty quick.

I wouldn't want Gruden here, BUT, he would just feed Danny's "Let's try something different this year" hunger.[/quote]

I really don't have a problem with how intense he is as a coach I just think people see him acting like that and just kind of assume he is a great coach. I have always thought he was a great coach until I started looking at what he has done over the past 11 years and his numbers tell a different story.

Re: Bucs fire Coach Jon Gruden and GM Bruce Allen
 

[quote=Mattyk72;521495]forget it he's done[/quote]

So now I can party like it's 1999?...No wait, ah forget it.

Re: Bucs fire Coach Jon Gruden and GM Bruce Allen
 

You've got to give Gruden some credit for success in Tampa, but at the same time the team has always been carried by its D, so now that Kiffin is gone it would've been different anyway. Maybe Kiffin's departure played a part as well & they felt they had to start w/younger guys on the staff. Allen being included in this surprises me more than anything. I thought he did a decent job of getting personel, don't know about their cap situation.