Re: obama is taking my $
 

But this not a new expenditure. Obama’s executive order merely expands the ways in which already allocated tax money can be spent. Therefore he is not taking any more of Wolf's money than Bush was. The thread title is inaccurate.

Re: obama is taking my $
 

But again, we now have infighting over a very divisive issue. Why did this have to be done NOW, couldn't we focus first on the issues that can build a consensus, or work toward improving our country? And before you say there is time etc etc, consider for a minute if this was a republican president who came in and the first thing he/she did was to impose a ban on funding of international organizations who promote abortion. would you still be saying give the new president time? Lets not start with the divisive, lets work to get the economy and country working.

Re: obama is taking my $
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;523030]But again, we now have infighting over a very divisive issue. Why did this have to be done NOW, couldn't we focus first on the issues that can build a consensus, or work toward improving our country? And before you say there is time etc etc, [B]consider for a minute if this was a republican president who came in and the first thing he/she did was to impose a ban on funding of international organizations who promote abortion.[/B] would you still be saying give the new president time? Lets not start with the divisive, lets work to get the economy and country working.[/quote]

LOL, you know that this happened right?

Re: obama is taking my $
 

Yep, and i know how every pro-abortion group reacted. Again, if he wants it to be same old c*** then so be it, but that's not what he said. so now we are back to the old petty arguments instead of trying to build a better country based on what unites us. instead of emphasizing that which we all agree and work toward he has again chosen a road of one sided political pandering. I thought and hoped he was better than that.

Re: obama is taking my $
 

it's interesting that you pulled the line out, that we all knew had happened, as opposed to answering the question that followed, or responding to the general point that this was an action which, while he has the right to do it, could have waited until after his first five days.

Re: obama is taking my $
 

[quote=firstdown;523007]Sorry but you have tho wrong clause because the Hyde/Weldon Clause was just past in 2005 and so how could Obama apeal the same clause as Clinton and Carter if it was just passed. Pleas try again.[/quote]


I never said that Obama repealed Hyde-Weldon, but the "Global Gag Rule." Yes, Hyde came afterwards, but it's in there to serve more than one purpose. And I can assure you, the funds aren't supposed to fund abortion but rather offer counseling services and allow women to know the options available, among other things health related.

Re: obama is taking my $
 

[quote=12thMan;523034]I never said that Obama repealed Hyde-Weldon, but the "Global Gag Rule." Yes, Hyde came afterwards, but it's in there to serve more than one purpose. And I can assure you, the funds aren't supposed to fund abortion but rather offer counseling services and allow women to know the options available, among other things health related.[/quote]

Like I said at the beging of this thread that I really don't have a strong opinion for or against abortion. I am against funding this over seas and by striking down this ban we will be paying for abortions and from what I have read thats not even up for debate.

Re: obama is taking my $
 

Like, we give them 10 bucks - and that 10 bucks can't go to the doctor performing the procedure, does that make sense? It can go towards counseling and family-planning services.

Read a portion of this Press Release from NARAL:

[I]The global gag rule, which former President George W. Bush imposed on his first day in office, prohibited the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID) from granting family-planning funds to any overseas health center unless it agreed not to use its own, private, non-U.S. funds for abortion services or counseling. Bush imposed this rule even though federal law already prohibits the use of U.S. tax dollars for abortion services overseas.....

Keenan said President Obama's strong action on behalf of women would incur criticism from anti-choice pressure groups that are hostile to birth control.

"We fully expect anti-choice politicians to distort the facts and make this about abortion, when it's not," Keenan said. "It's unconscionable that the same people who oppose legal abortion also want to block the world's poorest women from accessing birth control and other services that reduce the need for abortion in the first place."

For the last four years, President Bush has arbitrarily withheld funding appropriated by Congress to the United Nations Population Fund (UNFPA), which provides family-planning services, prenatal care, and other primary health services in developing countries.

For more information regarding these issues, including examples of how the global gag rule has cut off women's access to birth control, please visit [url=http://www.ProChoiceAmerica.org]NARAL Pro-Choice America[/url]. [/I]

Re: obama is taking my $
 

why does this topic invoke so many nutty opinions?

Re: obama is taking my $
 

It's the word "abortion", Dmek. It's a sexy word to use and divisive at the same time. The reality is, no one is [I][B]FOR [/B][/I]abortion.

But I suspect it's a number of things that has caused this particular topic to bubble to the top and become central to a much larger debate. I think, for one, coming off the heels of a historic election, people are engaged like never before.

Re: obama is taking my $
 

[quote=12thMan;523054]Like, we give them 10 bucks - and that 10 bucks can't go to the doctor performing the procedure, does that make sense? It can go towards counseling and family-planning services.

Read a portion of this Press Release from NARAL:

[I]The global gag rule, which former President George W. Bush imposed on his first day in office, prohibited the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID) from granting family-planning funds to any overseas health center unless it agreed not to use its own, private, non-U.S. funds for abortion services or counseling. Bush imposed this rule even though federal law already prohibits the use of U.S. tax dollars for abortion services overseas.....[/I]

[I]Keenan said President Obama's strong action on behalf of women would incur criticism from anti-choice pressure groups that are hostile to birth control. [/I]

[I]"We fully expect anti-choice politicians to distort the facts and make this about abortion, when it's not," Keenan said. "It's unconscionable that the same people who oppose legal abortion also want to block the world's poorest women from accessing birth control and other services that reduce the need for abortion in the first place."[/I]

[I]For the last four years, President Bush has arbitrarily withheld funding appropriated by Congress to the United Nations Population Fund (UNFPA), which provides family-planning services, prenatal care, and other primary health services in developing countries. [/I]

[I]For more information regarding these issues, including examples of how the global gag rule has cut off women's access to birth control, please visit [URL="http://www.ProChoiceAmerica.org"]NARAL Pro-Choice America[/URL]. [/I][/quote]

12th thats a very poor source which is very bias and would be like someone going to a source against abortion. If people think that if we are sending money to places that provide abortion and that none of the funds will support and pay for them is crazy. After the money hits their hands we have little or no control over what happens with these funds. Just look at what happens here in the US with bailout money and how congrees has trouble controlling how its spent here at home.

Re: obama is taking my $
 

[quote=12thMan;523060]. The reality is, no one is [I][B]FOR [/B][/I]abortion.
[/quote]


What a joke. What you meant to say is that in the last twenty years it's become fashionable for pro-choice politicians to ass-cover with some caveat indicating that in the purely moral sphere, of course they have reservations about this very difficult decision. Blah, blah, blah. Thomas Jefferson wasn't [B][I]for[/I][/B] slavery either. Actions speak much louder than words when it comes to things like this.

Re: obama is taking my $
 

Right, that's what it is, fashion.

I know you like to vilify and demonize anyone whose views differ from yours, describing them alternatively as pierced slackers, loitering homosexuals, white flag waving francophiles, fornicating Europeans, or in this case, pro dead fetus dissimulators, but seriously, can't you consider the possibility that not sharing your values doesn't automatically make someone morally corrupt?

Re: obama is taking my $
 

good post dj

Re: obama is taking my $
 

[quote=djnemo65;523253]Right, that's what it is, fashion.

I know you like to vilify and demonize anyone whose views differ from yours, describing them alternatively as pierced slackers, loitering homosexuals, white flag waving francophiles, fornicating Europeans, or in this case, pro dead fetus dissimulators, but seriously, can't you consider the possibility that not sharing your values doesn't automatically make someone morally corrupt?[/quote]

So who did you steal that quote from? It's baseless in application to 70.

Can't YOU consider that to pro-lifers in the world they consider abortion MURDER. THAT'S [B]MURDER[/B]. Again I am not making that argument but it seems pretty ignorant of the pro-choicers who rarely consider that they aren't arguing with a side about taxes, or off-shore drilling. You are arguing with people who think you are ok with killing other people. Humans tend to get somewhat angry about murder so it stands to reason that they'd think pretty little of pro-lifers since they consider you tanatamount to murderers.

Re: obama is taking my $
 

Note: this is why I don't discuss my views on abortion much. It's one issue no one will agree on and emotions get reasonably hot over it.

Re: obama is taking my $
 

[quote=12thMan;523060]It's the word "abortion", Dmek. It's a sexy word to use and divisive at the same time. The reality is, no one is [I][B]FOR [/B][/I]abortion.

But I suspect it's a number of things that has caused this particular topic to bubble to the top and become central to a much larger debate. I think, for one, coming off the heels of a historic election, people are engaged like never before.[/quote]
12th back 10 years ago I would have agreed with you until I met these two sisters who were very big in the pro-choice movement. There views on this subeject were so far to the left it almost seemed that they took pride in a women having a choice and choosing abortion. I'm not sure how the subject came up at this party but I'm pretty neutural on the abortion issue and all this one person said is that she could understand why some thought abortion was murder. These girls went nuts and they started saying things that just amazed me. After we left and got talking in the car the 4 people with me thought they had this party to push an agenda and even asked if anyone wanted to attend a rally. The one person who knew them even apologized for taking us to their party and we all kind of laughed it off put I just cannot forget what they said and the hate they showed to people with a different opinions. The funny thing was that no one their was really pro-life and most were pretty neutural on the subject.

Re: obama is taking my $
 

[quote=FRPLG;523262]Note: this is why I don't discuss my views on abortion much. It's one issue no one will agree on and emotions get reasonably hot over it.[/quote]

This is why I never made it an Understanding the Issues thread during the campaign.

I believe that 12th's point was that people (most people) aren't all "Yay! Let's go get an abortion!" It was that those who are pro-choice support the option to get an abortion. But I think most that do would rather not ever get one.

Re: obama is taking my $
 

[quote=70Chip;523252]What a joke. What you meant to say is that in the last twenty years it's become fashionable for pro-choice politicians to ass-cover with some caveat indicating that in the purely moral sphere, of course they have reservations about this very difficult decision. Blah, blah, blah. Thomas Jefferson wasn't [B][I]for[/I][/B] slavery either. Actions speak much louder than words when it comes to things like this.[/quote]


So who's actions are right in this case, 70? The government telling a woman what to do with her own body, a very personal and moral decision or the alternative, doing what she feels is in her best interest and well being?

Why is it an either or proposition?

Re: obama is taking my $
 

[quote=firstdown;523272]12th back 10 years ago I would have agreed with you until I met these two sisters who were very big in the pro-choice movement. There views on this subeject were so far to the left it almost seemed that they took pride in a women having a choice and choosing abortion. I'm not sure how the subject came up at this party but I'm pretty neutural on the abortion issue and all this one person said is that she could understand why some thought abortion was murder. These girls went nuts and they started saying things that just amazed me. After we left and got talking in the car the 4 people with me thought they had this party to push an agenda and even asked if anyone wanted to attend a rally. The one person who knew them even apologized for taking us to their party and we all kind of laughed it off put I just cannot forget what they said and the hate they showed to people with a different opinions. The funny thing was that no one their was really pro-life and most were pretty neutural on the subject.[/quote]
and the difference with the radical right, that would rather bomb abortion clinics is???

Re: obama is taking my $
 

[quote=dmek25;523283]and the difference with the radical right, that would rather bomb abortion clinics is???[/quote]
12th made the statement that "no on is for abortion" which I don't believe is true and I was showing why I did think that was true.

Re: obama is taking my $
 

i think what he was referring to is that most people favor the right to choose, not the actual disposing of a fetus. i don't think most of us are qualified to actually tell a woman what she can, and cannot do, with her own body. everyone has different circumstances on how they ended up pregnant

Re: obama is taking my $
 

[quote=firstdown;523303]12th made the statement that "no on is for abortion" which I don't believe is true and I was showing why I did think that was true.[/quote]

I think you know what I meant when I said no one is for abortion. Bottom line, no woman wants someone telling them what to do with their body.

Your story provides a very good and accurate account of why many have taken one side of the issue. And I would say that for every story such as yours, there's at least one that pushed people in the other directions.

There's no question this issue, at least in my opinion, has been politicized by many on the left and demonized by some of our religious brothers on the right. I think the issue is, or should be, not whether we make abortion illegal, but how can we reduce unwanted pregnacies.

I know, I know there I go again with my talking points. I can't help myself.

Re: obama is taking my $
 

[quote=12thMan;523316]I think you know what I meant when I said no one is for abortion. Bottom line, no woman wants someone telling them what to do with their body.[/quote]



no one is telling women what to do with their body, what they're being told is "don't kill that child living inside you". just like saying "don't kill your neighbor". that's the stance from most pro-lifers.

Re: obama is taking my $
 

[quote=12thMan;523278]So who's actions are right in this case, 70? The government telling a woman what to do with her own body, a very personal and moral decision or the alternative, doing what she feels is in her best interest and well being?

Why is it an either or proposition?[/quote]

It's become a common strategy among center-leftish politicians to support abortion rights 100% when it counts (that is with their votes) and then turn around and pretend that they have these great moral reservations when it doesn't count at all (when they're flapping their big gums).

If you're not sure when life begins, if it's "above your pay grade" wouldn't it make more sense to err on the side of caution and oppose abortion? Instead their uncertainty has led them to support abortion on demand wherever and whenever possible. They're full of shit.

Re: obama is taking my $
 

[quote=dmek25;523309]i think what he was referring to is that most people favor the right to choose, not the actual disposing of a fetus. i don't think most of us are qualified to actually tell a woman what she can, and cannot do, with her own body. everyone has different circumstances on how they ended up pregnant[/quote]

Totally true. I knew this girl that got pregnant from riding a tractor.

You can't support a women's right to "dispose of the fetus" and also feel sorry for the fetus. Logic won't allow for it.

Re: obama is taking my $
 

[quote=12thMan;523060]It's the word "abortion", Dmek. It's a sexy word to use and divisive at the same time. The reality is, no one is [I][B]FOR [/B][/I]abortion.

But I suspect it's a number of things that has caused this particular topic to bubble to the top and become central to a much larger debate. I think, for one, coming off the heels of a historic election, people are engaged like never before.[/quote]
I agree 12th. That is why your side likes to use the word choice. Why not call it what it really is: Infanticide.

Re: obama is taking my $
 

[quote=djnemo65;523253]Right, that's what it is, fashion.

I know you like to vilify and demonize anyone whose views differ from yours, describing them alternatively as pierced slackers, loitering homosexuals, white flag waving francophiles, fornicating Europeans, or in this case, pro dead fetus dissimulators, but seriously, can't you consider the possibility that not sharing your values doesn't automatically make someone morally corrupt?[/quote]


This is how one should post. This one gets a happy face. At least someone has been paying attention.

Our worldviews are just at odds. Your concept of morality is like a sand dune, ever shifting and unpermanent, while mine is more like a rock. It galls you that someone will actually say something is absolutely wrong, especially in the sexual realm. The reason is that God is at the center of my existence and your own false sense of yourself is at the center of yours. It's all very simple, really.

Re: obama is taking my $
 

I think it is abit ironic that liberals are quick to defend a murderer's right to life. A terrorist's right to American due process (closing down Gitmo). And, the showing of a video montage of American service men killing enemy combatants on the battle field, while God Bless America is playing. But, out of the other side of there ass, they will not defend the rights of an innocent fetus.

Me personally, I think abortion is okay in cases of rape, incest, and harm to the mother's life.

Re: obama is taking my $
 

Whoa, whoa, whoa, easy there hero. First of all not all fetuses are innocent. In the event that a woman is rapped or drugged and she gets pregnant you are going to ensure that she bears a child of the person that did that to her? I believe that it is cruel and unusal punishment. If she does not want to bear that child, then she is entitled. After all isn't it the belief of most of you that the son will bear the sins of the father? Why shouldn't it be her choice? If killing a fetus is wrong, then you shouldn't eat eggs. No one Rep or Dem believes in killing a child. Hell, most of us do not believe in killing at all. Correct me if I am wrong but don't several people believe in mercy killings of animals when they are wounded or do not stand a strong chance of survival? What is the difference?


I swear that if you say "It's because we are human and they are animals" I will puke. Doesn't your book also say that you will look over the animals? Yet we will kill them at will. There cannot be a double standard. So let me ask you; are you a vegetarian? If not, then you really need to rethink your position.

Re: obama is taking my $
 

You know what I find ironic? The fact that conservatives talk about freedom, democracy and liberty yet are willing to hold people/suspects in prison indefinitely without trial. They're willing to toss principles of freedom and the right to self-determination when a woman wants to terminate a pregnancy. They're OK with the killing that comes with war and civilian "collateral damage."

Abortion is OK so long as a woman makes the choice to abort before the 5 and half month mark.

Re: obama is taking my $
 

[quote=wolfeskins;523493]no one is telling women what to do with their body, what they're being told is "don't kill that child living inside you". just like saying "don't kill your neighbor". that's the stance from most pro-lifers.[/quote]


You know, someone how that doesn't even sound right. It just doesn't make sense. You most certainly are telling women what to do with their bodies.

And while you're quoting scripture, let's quote a few more. What about adultry and bearing false witness? Are they not also deeds punishable under the Old Testament?

So now, which one of those three --murder, false witness (lying), adultry, are unlawful?

In other words, if my daughter get's knocked up out of wedlock, which one is the crime. The act of adultry or the abortion?

Re: obama is taking my $
 

[quote=12thMan;523523]In other words, if my daughter get's knocked up out of wedlock, which one is the crime. The act of adultry or the abortion?[/quote]Both, right? Am I answering a trick question?

Re: obama is taking my $
 

[quote=saden1;523512]You know what I find ironic? The fact that conservatives talk about freedom, democracy and liberty yet are willing to hold people/suspects in prison indefinitely without trial. They're willing to toss principles of freedom and the right to self-determination when a woman wants to terminate a pregnancy. They're OK with the killing that comes with war and civilian "collateral damage."

Abortion is OK so long as a woman makes the choice to abort before the 5 and half month mark.[/quote]


So you are "for" abortion, correct?

Re: obama is taking my $
 

[quote=saden1;523512]You know what I find ironic? The fact that conservatives talk about freedom, democracy and liberty yet are willing to hold people/suspects in prison indefinitely without trial. They're willing to toss principles of freedom and the right to self-determination when a woman wants to terminate a pregnancy. They're OK with the killing that comes with war and civilian "collateral damage."

Abortion is OK so long as a woman makes the choice to abort before the 5 and half month mark.[/quote]
I've got no problem holding suspected terrorists/murders, especially when those that get released go out and kill again. Let's not pretend we're holding upstanding and decent people at GITMO. We do agree that they shouldn't be held indefinitely, they should've been tried by military tribunals and formally imprisioned or executed already. I have no answer why the Bush Administration didn't tackle this more aggressively.

[URL="http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,483764,00.html"]FOXNews.com - Bomber's Martyrdom Tape Renews Fears Over Consequences of Closing Gitmo - International News | News of the World | Middle East News | Europe News[/URL]

I've got no problem with a woman's self-determination if she wants to terminate her own life, have at it. However the innocent and defensless life inside her has rights to freedom and self-determination too...correct? We just disagree on the definition of life.

From a government perspective, IMO the abortion issue should be decided by individual states with third trimester abortion being completely outlawed by the Fed. I'm not concerned about the counseling services, people can say what they want as long as my tax dollars aren't funding actual abortions, it's not my place to repress someone's opinion. We'll all eventually answer to the "Man" when our time is up.

P.S. F GB, and I hope you didn't have to work too late :)

Re: obama is taking my $
 

[quote=70Chip;523526]So you are "for" abortion, correct?[/quote]

I am for people to have thee ability to exercise the right to abort an unwanted pregnancy. The only thing I would add to equation is reasonable and timely decision making.

Re: obama is taking my $
 

[quote=FRPLG;523261]So who did you steal that quote from? It's baseless in application to 70.

Can't YOU consider that to pro-lifers in the world they consider abortion MURDER. THAT'S [B]MURDER[/B]. Again I am not making that argument but it seems pretty ignorant of the pro-choicers who rarely consider that they aren't arguing with a side about taxes, or off-shore drilling. You are arguing with people who think you are ok with killing other people. Humans tend to get somewhat angry about murder so it stands to reason that they'd think pretty little of pro-lifers since they consider you tanatamount to murderers.[/quote]

??? That was all based on stuff that Chip has said at various times. Not made up, does apply. And dude, are you accusing me of plagiarism? I don’t know if you are trying to be cute or whatever but don't ever under any circumstances accuse me of that again. Maybe I am overreacting but that's something I take very seriously, especially on a message board where my original words are the only things I exist through.

My only issue was with chip imputing dishonesty to all those who claim to struggle with the abortion issue, as if he knows what they really think. As if you can’t support it unconditionally as law while still harboring personal reservations. One can debate the coherence of this as policy, I just don’t think it’s necessary to take it a step further and charge dishonesty. Anyway, regarding the larger issue, while I am obviously pro-choice for reasons I won't expound upon, I have always tried to treat those who disagree with me on this issue with respect, so I think you've got me all wrong again.

Re: obama is taking my $
 

[quote=70Chip;523502]This is how one should post. This one gets a happy face. At least someone has been paying attention.

Our worldviews are just at odds. Your concept of morality is like a sand dune, ever shifting and unpermanent, while mine is more like a rock. It galls you that someone will actually say something is absolutely wrong, especially in the sexual realm. The reason is that God is at the center of my existence and your own false sense of yourself is at the center of yours. It's all very simple, really.[/quote]

I do pay attention to everything you write, and find you to be erudite and well-read. One of my favorite posters, at least most of the time.

I believe your God to be illusory and live a lifestyle in accordance with that. I consider my sense of self to be, far from false, the only thing I know for sure to be true. I reside in Japan - the world capitol of godless hedonism - and live an accordant lifestyle, one that would make Jesus cry. My morality has been constructed on a case by case basis. There are things I find to be absolutely wrong but all of them involve harming another person, and none of them involve consensual sex. You get this, and I get you. We disagree, but that's not a problem.

I just don't like your tendency towards judgment, to dichotomize the world into the “decent people” on one hand, and those who disagree with you – the amoral shadow lurkers – on the other. Or, in today’s case, to call a group of people liars for claiming to not, like, be thrilled about abortion. As if you know what they really think! I live life with the assumption that most people are fundamentally decent and you don’t. You instead often remind me of a Gran Torino Eastwood, snarling at the rest of the world to get off your porch while ruthlessly judging anyone you perceive to be different than you.

Respectfully,

Re: obama is taking my $
 

[quote=12thMan;523523]In other words, if my daughter get's knocked up out of wedlock, which one is the crime. The act of adultry or the abortion?[/quote]


just as gtripp said, the answer to your question would be both BUT (i believe) god will forgive you for either,if you sincerely ask for forgiveness. i'm not against abortion in certain situations such as rape but i do believe abortion should be against the law as an every day practice for unwanted pregnancies.

example: a boy gets his girlfriend pregnant due to unprotected sex. the girl decides she doesn't want a baby quite yet so she goes down to the clinic and gets an abortion.
that should be against the law.

Re: obama is taking my $
 

[quote=wolfeskins;523732]just as gtripp said, the answer to your question would be both BUT (i believe) god will forgive you for either,if you sincerely ask for forgiveness. i'm not against abortion in certain situations such as rape but i do believe abortion should be against the law as an every day practice for unwanted pregnancies.

example: a boy gets his girlfriend pregnant due to unprotected sex. the girl decides she doesn't want a baby quite yet so she goes down to the clinic and gets an abortion.
that should be against the law.[/quote]

So should that girl go to jail if she get's an abortion illegally?