Re: For all you D Hall lovers
 

You make some good points Ruhskins. I wasn't sold on Hall at first, but sometimes under different circumstances people can change.

Re: For all you D Hall lovers
 

[quote=Ruhskins;527130]Yeah since Oakland is such a model franchise for a "bad" player to change. Actually if you are looking at "history" a terrible Randy Moss in Oakland went to a good locker room in NE and did very well (character-wise). It's funny how people forget that Sean Taylor was headed towards the wrong path, and changed for the better.

Unless Hall is an idiot with half a brain, I think he has learned his lesson after being humiliated by getting cut in Oakland.[/quote]

Like I mentioned, he only seems to go south once he gets paid. I'm not sure the organization has anything to do with it. The reason Moss cooled it in NE is that NE wins. Winning usually cures all problems. I hesitate to say this about ST because it did look like he was on his way down the good path but the journey had just started when he was killed so its hard to know how it would have turned out. Hall could be an idiot or maybe not. Most of these guys are idiots and I'm not sure he saw his cutting by Oak as a humilitation as I'm sure he believes it had nothing to do with his behavior and everything to do with Oak. All I'm saying is why take the chance with so much money and a questionable guy.

Re: For all you D Hall lovers
 

[quote=irish;527141]Like I mentioned, he only seems to go south once he gets paid. I'm not sure the organization has anything to do with it. The reason Moss cooled it in NE is that NE wins. Winning usually cures all problems. I hesitate to say this about ST because it did look like he was on his way down the good path but the journey had just started when he was killed so its hard to know how it would have turned out. Hall could be an idiot or maybe not. Most of these guys are idiots and I'm not sure he saw his cutting by Oak as a humilitation as I'm sure he believes it had nothing to do with his behavior and everything to do with Oak. All I'm saying is why take the chance with so much money and a questionable guy.[/quote]

You make a great argument Irish. But I think the Skins are willing to take the chance. You could be right. I hope not. This argument could also be made for many FA's as history has shown. So what do we do? I think the Skins are willing to overlook his past in favor of his current talent. That's the only explenation I have. And like stated earlier he has shown maturity lately. If we offered him less than he's statistically worth and he walked would you be ok with that knowing the talent he brings?

Re: For all you D Hall lovers
 

[quote=44ever;527143]You make a great argument Irish. But I think the Skins are willing to take the chance. You could be right. I hope not. This argument could also be made for many FA's as history has shown. So what do we do? I think the Skins are willing to overlook his past in favor of his current talent. That's the only explenation I have. And like stated earlier he has shown maturity lately. If we offered him less than he's statistically worth and he walked would you be ok with that knowing the talent he brings?[/quote]

I guess I think chances are taken with undrafted free agents or late round picks not high $ free agents. I would have a problem if he walked. I think the Skins need to learn to "get over" players. As an example Porter wanted big $ so Pgh wished him well and let Mia pay him. Did he play great for Mia, yes, but the Steelers had another great player waiting in the wings who played just as good (maybe even better) at a cheaper price. I know cheaper isnt what the Skins do (and the fans want "names" as well) but I think the organization would be better off if they adopted that mentality. For once I'd love to see the Skins have a guy out perform his contract.

Re: For all you D Hall lovers
 

[quote=irish;527147]I have no problem with him walking. What I'd like to see the Skins do is learn how to get over players. As an example, Porter wanted big $ from the Steelers so they wished him well and let Mia pay him. Did Porter play great for Mia, yes, but the Steelers had another great player waiting in the wings who played just as good (maybe even better) at a cheaper price. I know cheaper isnt what the Skins do (and the fans want "names" as well) but I think the organization would be better off if they adopted that mentality. For once I'd love to see the Skins have a guy out perform his contract.[/quote]

Respected.

Re: For all you D Hall lovers
 

[quote=irish;527141]Like I mentioned, he only seems to go south once he gets paid. I'm not sure the organization has anything to do with it. The reason Moss cooled it in NE is that NE wins. Winning usually cures all problems. I hesitate to say this about ST because it did look like he was on his way down the good path but the journey had just started when he was killed so its hard to know how it would have turned out. Hall could be an idiot or maybe not. Most of these guys are idiots and I'm not sure he saw his cutting by Oak as a humilitation as I'm sure he believes it had nothing to do with his behavior and everything to do with Oak. All I'm saying is why take the chance with so much money and a questionable guy.[/quote]

I respect your opinion and thanks for clarifying it. I feel that Hall was in two organizations (Atl and Oak) that were not known for having a good handle on its players. And yes, NE wins, but they also have a strong locker room and good veteran leadership. I don't think Oakland had that, and definitely Atlanta back then didn't have it. I think if Hall had not produced when we got him, then I would not agreed for this re-signing. But he produced, so we should give him a deal. I think given the Redskins attitude towards spending money, I feel that they will not go overboard with Hall. And I hope they are able to keep Rogers too. As I've repeatedly said, the success of both Hall and Rogers is tied to both of them being here in Washington.

Personally, if I were Rogers, I would stay, pad my number next year and hit free agency with the ability to sign for big money for another team. A CB tandem of Rogers and Hall for an entire season would be sick.

Re: For all you D Hall lovers
 

[quote=Ruhskins;527178]I respect your opinion and thanks for clarifying it. I feel that Hall was in two organizations (Atl and Oak) that were not known for having a good handle on its players. And yes, NE wins, but they also have a strong locker room and good veteran leadership. I don't think Oakland had that, and definitely Atlanta back then didn't have it. I think if Hall had not produced when we got him, then I would not agreed for this re-signing. But he produced, so we should give him a deal. I think given the Redskins attitude towards spending money, I feel that they will not go overboard with Hall. And I hope they are able to keep Rogers too. As I've repeatedly said, the success of both Hall and Rogers is tied to both of them being here in Washington.

Personally, if I were Rogers, I would stay, pad my number next year and hit free agency with the ability to sign for big money for another team. A CB tandem of Rogers and Hall for an entire season would be sick.[/quote]

Hall did perform but only for about a half season and like I mentioned it was in an effort to get a big payday. I'd like to see him perform over a longer period of time before spending big $ on him. Since when do the Redskins not go overboard when spending $? When they want someone they always go overboard. Its the Skins M. O. If Wash is the only place where Hall & Rogers can succeed then its further proof to me that they should not be resigned.

Re: For all you D Hall lovers
 

[quote=irish;527198]Hall did perform but only for about a half season and like I mentioned it was in an effort to get a big payday. I'd like to see him perform over a longer period of time before spending big $ on him. Since when do the Redskins not go overboard when spending $? When they want someone they always go overboard. Its the Skins M. O. If Wash is the only place where Hall & Rogers can succeed then its further proof to me that they should not be resigned.[/quote]

I agree with the first part but just because hall and rogers can succeed with the Skins could also mean they are comfortable with the team coaches, players, schemes ect... I believe both of them could play well with other teams but Hall really seems to thrive here. Because they play well here is not a reason to cut them. IMO.

Rogers should be kept for his ability to cover big name recievers. He may not have the best hand but I'll take a tipped pass over a completion any day. He also keeps the QB looking for alternative recievers. He can shut down guys like TO, Fitzgerald and the like because of his coverage abilities.

Hall should be kept because of his ability to read the D and close quikly on recievers with great hands for INT's

Re: For all you D Hall lovers
 

Hall of course, is only 25, so you could throw out the term "upside" with him, as he has plenty of time to grow.

But I would caution the organization that buys talent for it's future value, as you have quite the history on the guy which suggests that he's a questionable investment. Everyone has a price, but Snyder's been dealing closer to the merchandise revenue (MRP) expectation than how good Hall actually is on the field.

Not that there's anything wrong with that. Any agent worth his salt will float his client's star potential in order to get him paid. But very often, you overpay the talent on the field because you can make a profit off the field, and then your coaches play players not because they are more deserving, but because they feel like they have to let them justify their contract.

And we absolutely have no chance to handle this properly on the coaching end. So Hall is a huge gamble for us because if he doesn't pan out, he's just going to cost us wins for many, many years into the future.

Re: For all you D Hall lovers
 

[quote=GTripp0012;527248]Hall of course, is only 25, so you could throw out the term "upside" with him, as he has plenty of time to grow.

But I would caution the organization that buys talent for it's future value, as you have quite the history on the guy which suggests that he's a questionable investment. Everyone has a price, but Snyder's been dealing closer to the merchandise revenue (MRP) expectation than how good Hall actually is on the field.

Not that there's anything wrong with that. Any agent worth his salt will float his client's star potential in order to get him paid. But very often, you overpay the talent on the field because you can make a profit off the field, and then your coaches play players not because they are more deserving, but because they feel like they have to let them justify their contract.

And we absolutely have no chance to handle this properly on the coaching end. So Hall is a huge gamble for us because if he doesn't pan out, he's just going to cost us wins for many, many years into the future.[/quote]

Well if that happens then I guess he would make a heck of a $$$ punt returner:)

Re: For all you D Hall lovers
 

[quote=GTripp0012;527248]Hall of course, is only 25, so you could throw out the term "upside" with him, as he has plenty of time to grow.

But I would caution the organization that buys talent for it's future value, as you have quite the history on the guy which suggests that he's a questionable investment. Everyone has a price, but Snyder's been dealing closer to the merchandise revenue (MRP) expectation than how good Hall actually is on the field.

Not that there's anything wrong with that. Any agent worth his salt will float his client's star potential in order to get him paid. But very often, you overpay the talent on the field because you can make a profit off the field, and then your coaches play players not because they are more deserving, but because they feel like they have to let them justify their contract.

And we absolutely have no chance to handle this properly on the coaching end. So Hall is a huge gamble for us because if he doesn't pan out, he's just going to cost us wins for many, many years into the future.[/quote]

I agree. I'm not sure the risk is worth the reward.

Re: For all you D Hall lovers
 

[quote=irish;527198]Hall did perform but only for about a half season and like I mentioned it was in an effort to get a big payday. I'd like to see him perform over a longer period of time before spending big $ on him. [B]Since when do the Redskins not go overboard when spending $?[/B] When they want someone they always go overboard. Its the Skins M. O. If Wash is the only place where Hall & Rogers can succeed then its further proof to me that they should not be resigned.[/quote]

Well they when they were negotiating with DJ Hackett, Washington was very tight with money. Granted that it wasn't a big time player or something like that, but back in the days, the team would have overpaid for Hackett (or make the trade for Chad Johnson happen).

Unfortunately you don't get more time to watch Hall play, his contract is up and if we don't re-sign him then he walks away. You say that he performed well to get paid, well then would you have signed him if he had not performed? I just don't get when people say that. The team is going to have to re-sign either Hall this year or Rogers next year. I think they make a good CB tandem, and there's nothing wrong with one good player complimenting the other (referring to your last line).

I personally haven't seen anything GREAT from Rogers to re-sign before his contract is up. But with him the team has the luxury to wait another year. Whereas with Hall, the team doesn't. I think for the right price, it is worth keeping Hall, and wait and see what happens with Rogers.

Re: For all you D Hall lovers
 

[quote=Ruhskins;527293]Well they when they were negotiating with DJ Hackett, Washington was very tight with money. Granted that it wasn't a big time player or something like that, but back in the days, the team would have overpaid for Hackett (or make the trade for Chad Johnson happen).

Unfortunately you don't get more time to watch Hall play, his contract is up and if we don't re-sign him then he walks away. You say that he performed well to get paid, well then would you have signed him if he had not performed? I just don't get when people say that. The team is going to have to re-sign either Hall this year or Rogers next year. I think they make a good CB tandem, and there's nothing wrong with one good player complimenting the other (referring to your last line).

I personally haven't seen anything GREAT from Rogers to re-sign before his contract is up. But with him the team has the luxury to wait another year. Whereas with Hall, the team doesn't. I think for the right price, it is worth keeping Hall, and wait and see what happens with Rogers.[/quote]


One incident does not a trend make. If they had really wanted Hackett they would have paid him but they didnt do they didnt. They always pay guys they want. The key phrase in your post is "for the right price its worth keeping Hall". I agree with that but I'm not counting on the Skins to get the price right. They will overpay him (as usual) and if I have to make a bet I bet he will underperform and live up to his past history. I hope I am wrong about the history part but I know I am right about the overpay part.

Re: For all you D Hall lovers
 

Letting a 25 year old former Pro-Bowl cover corner with legit 4.2 speed would be stupid. I applaud the franchise for getting him mid season and for pushing to sign him to a long-term deal. Let's not forget, before the whole ATL debacle, people were calling him one of the best in the NFL after shutting down TO (while with the Eagles and at the top of his game) on Monday Night Football. Hall came in mid season and unseated Rogers while Rogers was having his best season as a pro. Get real, he'll be our #1 corner that we've been missing since Bailey left....and he's from VA!

Re: For all you D Hall lovers
 

We didn't overpay for London Fletcher, and I don't think you can discount passing over guys like Hackett. We wanted him, but only for a certain price.

Re: For all you D Hall lovers
 

[quote=Son Of Man;527317]Letting a 25 year old former Pro-Bowl cover corner with legit 4.2 speed would be stupid. I applaud the franchise for getting him mid season and for pushing to sign him to a long-term deal. Let's not forget, before the whole ATL debacle, people were calling him one of the best in the NFL after shutting down TO (while with the Eagles and at the top of his game) on Monday Night Football. Hall came in mid season and unseated Rogers while Rogers was having his best season as a pro. Get real, he'll be our #1 corner that we've been missing since Bailey left....and he's from VA![/quote]

i agree. I dont get all the hate coming from some people on Hall. He's a playmaker and a much cheaper option than Springs and his best years are still ahead of him. If we sign him to a 6 year contract, he'll still only be 31 when its up... he could easily be STARTING for us the next 7-8 years. If we let Hall go, we're just creating a big hole we're going to have to fill somewhere else. if we lock Hall up now, we can focus in the draft and FA exclusively on our lines and LB position.

Re: For all you D Hall lovers
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;527416]i agree. I dont get all the hate coming from some people on Hall. He's a playmaker and a much cheaper option than Springs and his best years are still ahead of him. If we sign him to a 6 year contract, he'll still only be 31 when its up... he could easily be STARTING for us the next 7-8 years. If we let Hall go, we're just creating a big hole we're going to have to fill somewhere else. if we lock Hall up now, we can focus in the draft and FA exclusively on our lines and LB position.[/quote]

I think it is easy for people to get caught up in the character issue with Hall. And while that is a concern, I think that should not be the only aspect in which he is judged as a player. Furthermore, I think there is enough veteran leadership in the defense to be a good influence on Hall; I think that's what helped Sean Taylor make a 180.

Re: For all you D Hall lovers
 

The thing that concerns me about Hall is when he has a meltdown on the field and starts getting flagged for stupid penalties. Last year we didn't see any of that, hopefully he is past those days.

Re: For all you D Hall lovers
 

[quote=Mattyk72;527431]The thing that concerns me about Hall is when he has a meltdown on the field and starts getting flagged for stupid penalties. Last year we didn't see any of that, hopefully he is past those days.[/quote]

I recall 2 personal fouls without meltdowns.

Re: For all you D Hall lovers
 

[quote=Mattyk72;527431]The thing that concerns me about Hall is when he has a meltdown on the field and starts getting flagged for stupid penalties. [B]Last year we didn't see any of that[/B], hopefully he is past those days.[/quote]

when he got burnt for a catch then had his tackle brushed off he lost his cool and came down the field and hit the receiver when he was on the ground after the play. got his 15 yarder. yeah, i hope he doesnt do more of that. def doesnt fit in with how we like to play the game. (this is where you say what is skins football? b/c hall doesnt like losing he doesnt play skins football? yada yada yada)

the thing i worry about hall with is if this team isnt winning i can see him becoming a malcontent on the field and in the locker room. if we're winning and hes making plays all will be good. if we arent winning and players start publicly questioning the coaches i think he could turn into the old hall quite quickly.

either way, i get the feeling we need him and ill be rooting for him while he is in the B&G.

go skins!!

Re: For all you D Hall lovers
 

We are making way too much of an issue of Halls on field behavior IMO. The guy has been very professional on and off the field since signing with the Skins. I don't see the need for concern here. We would be fools not to sign him IMO. Or we can continue to talk smack about how our FO "doesnt recongnize talent" or "let that one get away" ect... The Redskins need Hall, not the other way around.

Most INTs, since 2005
Champ Bailey 22
Asante Samuel 22
DeAngelo Hall 18
Darren Sharper 17
Charles Woodson 17

Re: For all you D Hall lovers
 

[quote=44ever;527445]We are making way too much of an issue of Halls on field behavior IMO. The guy has been very professional on and off the field since signing with the Skins. I don't see the need for concern here. We would be fools not to sign him IMO. Or we can continue to talk smack about how our FO "doesnt recongnize talent" or "let that one get away" ect... The Redskins need Hall, not the other way around.[/quote]

Exactly
:food-smil

Re: For all you D Hall lovers
 

[quote=GTripp0012;527248]Hall of course, is only 25, so you could throw out the term "upside" with him, as he has plenty of time to grow.

But I would caution the organization that buys talent for it's future value, as you have quite the history on the guy which suggests that he's a questionable investment. Everyone has a price, but Snyder's been dealing closer to the merchandise revenue (MRP) expectation than how good Hall actually is on the field.

Not that there's anything wrong with that. Any agent worth his salt will float his client's star potential in order to get him paid. But very often, you overpay the talent on the field because you can make a profit off the field, and then your coaches play players not because they are more deserving, but because they feel like they have to let them justify their contract.

And we absolutely have no chance to handle this properly on the coaching end. So Hall is a huge gamble for us because if he doesn't pan out, he's just going to cost us wins for many, many years into the future.[/quote]


What do you define as not panning out? How will hall singlehandedly cost us wins for many years in the future? you use the term win and year in the plural sense, which seems to imply Hall somehow has the ability to singlehandely lose more than one game per year for us, for atleast 3 years. Please spell this out for me because i dont see how Hall, even if he ends up playing at a lowly fred smoot level (which is HIGHLY unlikely), would singlehandedly result in us losing multiple games over a course of several years? it seems to be a ridiculous, outlandish statement, and i would really like to know what youre basing it on.

Re: For all you D Hall lovers
 

Hall has been immature most of his career and just like a spoiled child he has gotten away with a lot of bad behavior in the past because he was allowed to. Oakland sent him packing, and to be benched or let go by the Redskins should he sign with us, would pretty much stain the rest of his career. It seems to me that Los lost his starting job after complaining that the players were not put in position to make plays in a game late in the year. I can't imagine Blache putting up with too much crap from Hall, or the other players putting up with stupid penalties either. I know Fletch wouldn't. He did get a couple of personal fouls out of frustration last year but I was surprised there wasn't more of a reaction from him about Springs stepping in front of him and screwing up an easy interception. He has talent. What he has lacked is discipline. I would hope that Jerry Gray is being asked for his imput on this and I would have to respect whatever he feels about Hall. If Los could hold on to the damn ball, Hall might not be as attractive to us but this is where we are. I would offer him a good contract but not break the bank on him. If he really wants to play for us and is not just after the money, we shouldn't have to.

Re: For all you D Hall lovers
 

[quote=53Fan;527452]Hall has been immature most of his career and just like a spoiled child he has gotten away with a lot of bad behavior in the past because he was allowed to. Oakland sent him packing, and to be benched or let go by the Redskins should he sign with us, would pretty much stain the rest of his career. It seems to me that Los lost his starting job after complaining that the players were not put in position to make plays in a game late in the year. I can't imagine Blache putting up with too much crap from Hall, or the other players putting up with stupid penalties either. I know Fletch wouldn't. He did get a couple of personal fouls out of frustration last year but I was surprised there wasn't more of a reaction from him about Springs stepping in front of him and screwing up an easy interception. He has talent. What he has lacked is discipline. I would hope that Jerry Gray is being asked for his imput on this and I would have to respect whatever he feels about Hall. If Los could hold on to the damn ball, Hall might not be as attractive to us but this is where we are. I would offer him a good contract but not break the bank on him. If he really wants to play for us and is not just after the money, we shouldn't have to.[/quote]


Hall was only 19 when he came into the league, so it shouldnt come as a surprise that he had some maturity issues early on in his career. but for goodness sakes, hes 25 now. most guys do ALOT of maturing in that time period. He's gone on the record saying he was miserable in Oakland and the experience showed him money isnt everything. He was as close to a model citizen as you want your starting corner to be. every corner gets a personal foul now and then - i seem to remember the "beloved" carlos rogers getting a couple this year - yet why is no one talking about his character and maturity? Hall has also gone on record saying how much he looks up to Fletcher and asks him for advice. Hall is saying and DOING all the right things. He has done enough to show most - if not all - of his maturity problems are a thing of the past. He's certainly done enough to show he's more mature than Carlos Rogers is at this point, with all his complaining about his contract, playing time, and even demanding a trade.

And what about our other corner, Springs? He's as selfish and greedy as they come - yet no one criticizes his character. Looking at our corner situation, we have two young, talented guys in Hall and Rogers. Some people say its an either/or situation - but i dont think we should have to chose between them. I think we should extend Hall and keep Rogers, atleast one more year... but if given a choice, i'd pick Hall in a heartbeat and not look back. He is - by far - the better (and more mature) corner.

Re: For all you D Hall lovers
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;527456]Hall was only 19 when he came into the league, so it shouldnt come as a surprise that he had some maturity issues early on in his career. but for goodness sakes, hes 25 now. most guys do ALOT of maturing in that time period. He's gone on the record saying he was miserable in Oakland and the experience showed him money isnt everything. He was as close to a model citizen as you want your starting corner to be. every corner gets a personal foul now and then - i seem to remember the "beloved" carlos rogers getting a couple this year - yet why is no one talking about his character and maturity? Hall has also gone on record saying how much he looks up to Fletcher and asks him for advice. Hall is saying and DOING all the right things. He has done enough to show most - if not all - of his maturity problems are a thing of the past. He's certainly done enough to show he's more mature than Carlos Rogers is at this point, with all his complaining about his contract, playing time, and even demanding a trade.

And what about our other corner, Springs? He's as selfish and greedy as they come - yet no one criticizes his character. Looking at our corner situation, we have two young, talented guys in Hall and Rogers. Some people say its an either/or situation - but i dont think we should have to chose between them. I think we should extend Hall and keep Rogers, atleast one more year... but if given a choice, i'd pick Hall in a heartbeat and not look back. [B]He is - by far - the better [/B](and more mature) corner.[/quote]

Agree 100% with you on this one BHA

Most INTs, since 2005
Champ Bailey 22
Asante Samuel 22
[B]DeAngelo Hall 18 [/B]
Darren Sharper 17
Charles Woodson 17

Re: For all you D Hall lovers
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;527456]And what about our other corner, Springs? He's as selfish and greedy as they come - yet no one criticizes his character. Looking at our corner situation, we have two young, talented guys in Hall and Rogers. Some people say its an either/or situation - but i dont think we should have to chose between them. I think we should extend Hall and keep Rogers, atleast one more year... but if given a choice, i'd pick Hall in a heartbeat and not look back. He is - by far - the better (and more mature) corner.[/quote]

I would give Springs a break. His father has been in a coma for over a year and I'm sure those hospital bills are pretty hefty and I can pretty much say that he's helping his mom in paying for those bills that keep rolling in and probably has no help from the players union. Maybe that's why he's greedy and doesn't want pitty from anyone so he acts this way?

Re: For all you D Hall lovers
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;527468]I would give Springs a break. His father has been in a coma for over a year and I'm sure those hospital bills are pretty hefty and I can pretty much say that he's helping his mom in paying for those bills that keep rolling in and probably has no help from the players union. Maybe that's why he's greedy and doesn't want pitty from anyone so he acts this way?[/quote]

are you serious? his father played in the NFL. The springs family is loaded, with or without Shawns help. And shawns father has nothing to do with the fact that he'll miss a game if there's a stiff breeze - they guys #1 priority is money and he's not going to play (to earn his money) if he doesnt want to. he has no "heart" and he sets a bad example for the other players. Im sure Carlos has learned alot from him the past 4 years and observing his attitude could very well have contributed to Carlos attitude now in demanding a trade.

Re: For all you D Hall lovers
 

[quote=44ever;527458]Agree 100% with you on this one BHA

Most INTs, since 2005
Champ Bailey 22
Asante Samuel 22
[B]DeAngelo Hall 18 [/B]
Darren Sharper 17
Charles Woodson 17[/quote]

Hall is in some very good company there. Why anyone wouldnt want him is beyond me.

Re: For all you D Hall lovers
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;527476]are you serious? his father played in the NFL. The springs family is loaded, with or without Shawns help. And shawns father has nothing to do with the fact that he'll miss a game if there's a stiff breeze - they guys #1 priority is money and he's not going to play (to earn his money) if he doesnt want to. he has no "heart" and he sets a bad example for the other players. Im sure Carlos has learned alot from him the past 4 years and observing his attitude could very well have contributed to Carlos attitude now in demanding a trade.[/quote]

Who are we to say that Springs has no heart? Who are we to judge that his calf injury was some made up excuse. Who are we to act like just because he's an NFL player with money that flying nearly cross country every week to visit your comatose father, dealing with your stepmom's breast cancer, and his own impending divorce and custody battle. He has no heart? Please. He nearly gave up his career (including the money) to donate his kidney to his ailing father. A man with no heart doesn't do that.

Where was all this talk of "no heart" when Springs played all 16 games in 2007 and had 4 INTs in the last month of the season to help catapult us into the playoffs?

Re: For all you D Hall lovers
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;527476]are you serious? his father played in the NFL. The springs family is loaded, with or without Shawns help. And shawns father has nothing to do with the fact that he'll miss a game if there's a stiff breeze - they guys #1 priority is money and he's not going to play (to earn his money) if he doesnt want to. he has no "heart" and he sets a bad example for the other players. Im sure Carlos has learned alot from him the past 4 years and observing his attitude could very well have contributed to Carlos attitude now in demanding a trade.[/quote]

I'm sorry but you are mistaken. When his father played he made a decent salary, I wouldn't say he broke the bank. As for injuries, the guy is injury prone; trust me, I'm not trying to cover for him.

Re: For all you D Hall lovers
 

[quote=SmootSmack;527480]Who are we to say that Springs has no heart? Who are we to judge that his calf injury was some made up excuse. Who are we to act like just because he's an NFL player with money that flying nearly cross country every week to visit your comatose father, dealing with your stepmom's breast cancer, and his own impending divorce and custody battle. He has no heart? Please. He nearly gave up his career (including the money) to donate his kidney to his ailing father. A man with no heart doesn't do that.

Where was all this talk of "no heart" when Springs played all 16 games in 2007 and had 4 INTs in the last month of the season to help catapult us into the playoffs?[/quote]

Well said. Thank you!!

Re: For all you D Hall lovers
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;527456]Hall was only 19 when he came into the league, so it shouldnt come as a surprise that he had some maturity issues early on in his career. but for goodness sakes, hes 25 now. most guys do ALOT of maturing in that time period. He's gone on the record saying he was miserable in Oakland and the experience showed him money isnt everything. He was as close to a model citizen as you want your starting corner to be. every corner gets a personal foul now and then - i seem to remember the "beloved" carlos rogers getting a couple this year - yet why is no one talking about his character and maturity? Hall has also gone on record saying how much he looks up to Fletcher and asks him for advice. Hall is saying and DOING all the right things. He has done enough to show most - if not all - of his maturity problems are a thing of the past. He's certainly done enough to show he's more mature than Carlos Rogers is at this point, with all his complaining about his contract, playing time, and even demanding a trade.

And what about our other corner, Springs? He's as selfish and greedy as they come - yet no one criticizes his character. Looking at our corner situation, we have two young, talented guys in Hall and Rogers. Some people say its an either/or situation - but i dont think we should have to chose between them. I think we should extend Hall and keep Rogers, atleast one more year... but if given a choice, i'd pick Hall in a heartbeat and not look back. He is - by far - the better (and more mature) corner.[/quote]
I agree with alot of what you say BHA. As I said I expected more of a reaction on the play where Springs messed up his INT but he didn't get bent out of shape and throw his teammate under the bus. A good sign to me. If Gray wants to sign him I'm all for it. I just don't want to break the bank on him. I've watch D.Hall all through HS and college. I live 5 minutes from Deep Creek High School where we both graduated. I hope he has matured. He had a lot of maturing to do. He was a great HS player but even then he was a selfish prima donna who cost us the state championship one year. Granted we couldn't have got there without him, but a dumbass selfish mistake contributed alot to us losing the game. With that said, I believe he is in the best situation for him in his entire pro career. I believe he's in a locker room that is condusive to him being more of a team player. As for Carlos and Springs, I think they've both taken their share of critizism and rightfully so. All I'm saying is we need to give him a good contract but not an unreasonable one. If he's gone on record as saying money isn't everything as you say, then we shouldn't have to break the bank on him. He's also stated he wants to play here. So I wouldn't necessarily treat him like we need him but he doesn't need us.

Re: For all you D Hall lovers
 

[quote=SmootSmack;527480]Who are we to say that Springs has no heart? Who are we to judge that his calf injury was some made up excuse. Who are we to act like just because he's an NFL player with money that flying nearly cross country every week to visit your comatose father, dealing with your stepmom's breast cancer, and his own impending divorce and custody battle. He has no heart? Please. He nearly gave up his career (including the money) to donate his kidney to his ailing father. A man with no heart doesn't do that.

Where was all this talk of "no heart" when Springs played all 16 games in 2007 and had 4 INTs in the last month of the season to help catapult us into the playoffs?[/quote]

i was speaking of his play on the field and his contributions to the team when i said he has no heart. His personal life is irrelevant. 2007 is irrelevant. I'm talking about now. players who really care about the game and the team play through minor injuries because they know their team needs them. If Springs had heart, perhaps he would have done more to help the team get to the playoffs in 2008. By all appearances, Springs milks any injury he has for whatever its worth. Its also been confirmed (or if not, its widely beleived) that he was the mole leaking info to the press a couple seasons ago, bad-mouthing the team. Before the 2008 season, Springs said he seriously considered retiring but was talked out of it. Maybe he'll save us the trouble of cutting him and retire this year. By all appearances, his heart is no longer in the game and he's only playing for the money.

Re: For all you D Hall lovers
 

I think there is no way to say with confidence that someone has or doesn't have heart on the field. If I recall correctly, when Brunell was playing hurt back in 2004 (or maybe it was '06) he was being ripped for being selfish and refusing to sit out when he was clearly hurt. But I guess he had heart.

Selfishly, I'd like the team to keep Springs. He can still play the game and is one of our best and smartest players when he's on the field (which is more often than not). But I also know that from a monetary standpoint it may be best to let him go. And I know that Shawn Springs has too much going on with his life to need to put up with fans accusing him of having no heart every step he takes.

Re: For all you D Hall lovers
 

[quote=SmootSmack;527497]I think there is no way to say with confidence that someone has or doesn't have heart on the field. If I recall correctly, when Brunell was playing hurt back in 2004 (or maybe it was '06) he was being ripped for being selfish and refusing to sit out when he was clearly hurt. But I guess he had heart.

Selfishly, I'd like the team to keep Springs. He can still play the game and is one of our best and smartest players when he's on the field (which is more often than not). But I also know that from a monetary standpoint it may be best to let him go. And I know that Shawn Springs has too much going on with his life to need to put up with fans accusing him of having no heart every step he takes.[/quote]

I think there is no way to say with confidence that Springs gives a crap what fans say about him... unless you or I are shawn springs, we cant know for sure what is going on in his head. all we have to do is look at the evidence as we see it and make our own judgements. this isnt a court of law. its a court of public opinion. Springs has done nothing to endear himself to fans. He has done nothing to earn his salary last year and he has done nothing to show he's worth 8.5M in 2009. If Springs were making the vet minimum and pushed himself to be in games, that would be one thing. But he's been making an insane amount of money to do next to nothing. If springs choses to restructure and extend his contract to stay here at a reasonable rate for a guy with his history of making the team wonder whether hes going to play or not all week, every week, then my opinion of him will change. If he retires, my opinion of him will change.

However, when he refuses to restructure, gets cut by the Skins, and then signs with Dallas within a week for a fraction of what he would have made here, then we'll see how you feel about him then. I can feel sympathy for Springs as a person with his off-field trials just like i can feel sympathy for Reed Doughty... but at the end of the day, its what they do on the field that counts. If you cant get on the field, or if you don't play well when you are on the field, you cant expect to be on the team and you certainly cant expect fans to love you. If feeling that way makes me a cold-hearted sob, then i guess thats what I am.

Re: For all you D Hall lovers
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;527477]Hall is in some very good company there. Why anyone wouldnt want him is beyond me.[/quote]

The same reason no one wanted TO when he was cut by the iggles a couple years back, yet you could hold his stats up w/the best in the biz too. The cowpokes were the only team that would pay him. Likewise, Hall wasn't claimed off waivers by anyone when the raiders cut him, so NO nfl team thought he was worth the deal he signed w/oakland.

Hall is the TO of db's. I hope the dude has matured & isn't such a self absorbed prick, but I think he played well this year for one reason - he wants a big contract. He could be the best in the biz but he doesn't want to be coached & he alienates his teamates.

C. Mortensen reported that the week before he got cut the raiders were hosting atlanta. He had a cookout for some of his old teamates, but "had a lot of food left over." This guy seems to be almost universally hated everywhere he goes, and its a shame cause he has the physical ability to be great. I would hate to see us sign him & trade Rogers, it could impact chemistry in a very bad way.

Re: For all you D Hall lovers
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;527500]I think there is no way to say with confidence that Springs gives a crap what fans say about him... unless you or I are shawn springs, we cant know for sure what is going on in his head.[/quote]

Sure, but I'm not the one who said he had "no heart" or even brought such an intangible factor into the discussion.

[quote]all we have to do is look at the evidence as we see it and make our own judgements. this isnt a court of law. its a court of public opinion. Springs has done nothing to endear himself to fans.[/quote]

Nothing? Really?

[quote] He has done nothing to earn his salary last year and he has done nothing to show he's worth 8.5M in 2009. If Springs were making the vet minimum and pushed himself to be in games, that would be one thing. But he's been making an insane amount of money to do next to nothing.[/quote]

He was hurt last year, but you'd like him to give back the money due to him in exchange for the vet min?

[quote]However, when he refuses to restructure, gets cut by the Skins, and then signs with Dallas within a week for a fraction of what he would have made here, then we'll see how you feel about him then.[/quote]

I'd always thought he would end his career in Arizona actually (but Dallas is a possibility I suppose). If he does that, I'd miss him as a player on the Redskins but I'd wish him the best as he'd be closer to home and family.

[quote]I can feel sympathy for Springs as a person with his off-field trials just like i can feel sympathy for Reed Doughty... but at the end of the day, its what they do on the field that counts. If you cant get on the field, or if you don't play well when you are on the field, you cant expect to be on the team and you certainly cant expect fans to love you. If feeling that way makes me a cold-hearted sob, then i guess thats what I am.[/quote]

But you don't seem to want to evaluate his performance on the field.

Re: For all you D Hall lovers
 

[quote=freddyg12;527501]The same reason no one wanted TO when he was cut by the iggles a couple years back, yet you could hold his stats up w/the best in the biz too. The cowpokes were the only team that would pay him. Likewise, Hall wasn't claimed off waivers by anyone when the raiders cut him, so NO nfl team thought he was worth the deal he signed w/oakland.

Hall is the TO of db's. I hope the dude has matured & isn't such a self absorbed prick, but I think he played well this year for one reason - he wants a big contract. He could be the best in the biz but he doesn't want to be coached & he alienates his teamates.

C. Mortensen reported that the week before he got cut the raiders were hosting atlanta. He had a cookout for some of his old teamates, but "had a lot of food left over." This guy seems to be almost universally hated everywhere he goes, and its a shame cause he has the physical ability to be great. I would hate to see us sign him & trade Rogers, it could impact chemistry in a very bad way.[/quote]

I'm sure the same things were brought when NE traded for Moss. Although it is funny that anytime I mention Moss, people say "well they were winning in NE, so he behaved". Well, when Hall came to the Redskins, we were not winning, and he played extremely well.

[quote]I hope the dude has matured & isn't such a self absorbed prick, but I think he played well this year for one reason - he wants a big contract.[/quote]

This is a damn if you do/damn if you don't situation. If he had sucked...or not contribute much at all to the defense, what would you be saying now? If you were up for a raise in your job, wouldn't you want to do your best?

Re: For all you D Hall lovers
 

I'd think that most rational Redskins fans would agree that we'd be best served going into next season with a defensive backfield that contained Springs, Hall, Rogers, Smoot, Horton and Landry. Whether we're able to make that happen is a big question mark but if we are able to re-sign Hall and we don't trade Rogers then starting Hall and Rogers at CB with Springs and Landry at the safety spots would give us the best DB grouping the league.