From what I remember Gibbs has no problem.. rotating QB's doug williams didnt start as the starter for the Redskins when we won that Super bowl that year. He bacame the starter right before the playoffs.

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]The regular season isn't the time for experimenting at QB.

Before you know it we'll have a Spurrier-like rotation at QB, and we all know how well that went.

Brunell is the starter, Ramsey is the backup.[/QUOTE]

That is a very reasonable opinion. And I did not say to move Hasselbeck to #1. I said he should get a shot at the backup. I know what you are saying, but making a judicious decision for a backup change (at ANY position) is not the same as SS's poorly conceived, sporadic revolving door at QB. It is the type of "adjustment" Gibbs has made many times in the past. I agree with the poster who said he does not like to "experiment", but on the other hand, he has always been willing to make adjustments when he felt they were needed. Now, maybe he will not see this as a need, but my expectation is that he will.

[QUOTE=hurrykaine]"2. Hasselbeck's first game as a Redskin was a victory over the Dolphins. He replaced Ramsey against a hostile Miami crowd and won."

BS...how quicky you forget - Ricky Williams ran riot over us in the second half, and our D couldn't hold Miami off - we lost that game. (our only wins last year came against Jets/Falcons/Pats/Seahawks/Giants)

Hasselback is a decent back-up QB, but in advocating promoting him to starter, what about the time he had a QB rating of 0.0 against Dallas last year with 4 INTs? Or a miserable 2 INT outing against the Panthers this pre-season? Every QB has stunk up the joint at some point or another - if Brunell's healthy, we go with him. Else we go with Ramsey and play ball control (a huge ask for this offense).

If we get into a hole like we did yesterday, I don't think Hasselback would've been any more effective than Ramsey getting us back into the game.[/QUOTE]

I stand corrected. Hasselbeck had 4 INTs against the 1# defense in the NFL . What games did Hasselbeck win out of the 5 ?

[QUOTE=joethiesmanfan]From what I remember Gibbs has no problem.. rotating QB's doug williams didnt start as the starter for the Redskins when we won that Super bowl that year. He bacame the starter right before the playoffs.[/QUOTE]


I think Matty was referring to Spurrier the way he rotated QB's every other play in college. I could be wrong though.

TH stats: [url]http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=5534[/url]
only win was against the giants. no way in hell is going to ever be a fullseason starter anywhere. but who cares, his wife is hot.

patrick ramsey killed us sunday. all of our top players killed us yesterday.
gardner AND coles had 3 drops yesterday. even cooley had a drop.
brunell blew it. portis sucked.

I don't think brunell should be the redskins starter. it seems to me that he is only trying to make the safe throws(ala brad johnson). then when he gets pressure from waiting in the pocket too long, he forces it and makes a bad throw.

once ramsey came in the game, it seemed like the field got longer. all our pass routes were beyond 10 yards.

i can remember a few months ago(pre brunell), when all skins fans were happy to see ramsey in Jgibbs system. that shouldnt change now.

If gardner had caugth the football in the endzone, ramsey would've been the hero and we never would've seen the last two interceptions. that should've been an easy catch for anyone.
coles and gardner let our Qb's down sunday. coles turned the wrong way on ramseys first INT.

another excuse for ramsey: he was pressing too hard to win the starting job back. simple.

ramsey gives the skins more opportunities downfield. brunell is too conservative, it seems as if he only cares about his completions to interceptions ratio.

also, the skins need a new center. friedman is terrible. brunell cant even take a snap either.

another observation: when the game gots out of hand, chris samuels blows up inside. we saw this ALOT last year. he gets pissed and ends up missing his assignment and getting the QB killed. he did it sunday. he dominated his guyh yesterday then on 3rd and long with time running out, he just stands around while ramsey gets killed. he is rediculous. he is a pouting little boy.

[QUOTE=SUNRA]I stand corrected. Hasselbeck had 4 INTs against the 1# defense in the NFL . What games did Hasselbeck win out of the 5 ?[/QUOTE]

The only win was against the Giants. But all of the losses exept the one where TH strangely could not even hit a WALL with a ball, the losses were not his fault. They were due to a defense that was totally unable to stop a run. Hasselbeck played VERY well in all of the games but one. I sure hope he gets a shot sometime this season so we can see if he is for real. Brunell does not hurt us, but just never seems to have a big play left in him. Ramsey definitely has the big play ability, but continues to hurt the hell out of us - not by interceptions any more than by all the missed opportunities and late passes.

[QUOTE=jamf]TH stats: [url]http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=5534[/url]
only win was against the giants. no way in hell is going to ever be a fullseason starter anywhere.
[/QUOTE]

I would never say that about any young backup QB. I'm sure plenty of Atlanta fans thought that about Bret Favre before they let him get away. The simple fact is, we don't KNOW what TH's potential is yet.

Oh yeah, and some Philly fans probably thought Jurgy would never amount to anything...

We lose one game and now its the end of the world. At this rate people are gonan wanna fire Gibbs at the end of next week

[QUOTE=Gmanc711]We lose one game and now its the end of the world. At this rate people are gonan wanna fire Gibbs at the end of next week[/QUOTE]
Seriously!

A win and everything is ok. A loss and the sky is falling, guys need to be cut, traded, benched, etc. Gimme a break.

[QUOTE=Hogskin]I would never say that about any young backup QB. I'm sure plenty of Atlanta fans thought that about Bret Favre before they let him get away. The simple fact is, we don't KNOW what TH's potential is yet.

Oh yeah, and some Philly fans probably thought Jurgy would never amount to anything...[/QUOTE]


Seems like a awful lot of people in here think Ramseys not going to amount to anything. Everyones being so hipocritical, I mean this to to the upmost respect to everyone too, including hogskin. But I mean how can you all stick up for Hasslebeck and say he has potential, he has potential, and then be like, well Ramsey is just damaged goods already. Hasslebeck has so much more potential, get him in there. The simple fact is, we dont know what Ramseys potential is either. Just like they didnt knwo what Favre's was and what Jurguys was. Screw it, lets trade Ramsey, I hope he turns into a all pro qb somewhere else.

[QUOTE=Gmanc711]We lose one game and now its the end of the world. At this rate people are gonan wanna fire Gibbs at the end of next week[/QUOTE]

I am just suggesting changing 2 starters out of 22 - not armageddon. So does this mean if Gibbs DOES make these changes in the next 2-3 weeks, then YOU want him outta here? I support Gibbs no matter what happens this season. I am just projecting some changes that I think are obvious, and I think he will feel that way also. He takes his time with changes, but I really think they will happen. I'll say it one more time, the LOSS had nothing to do with this - I said all of this 6 WEEKS AGO!! Gardner always has and always will drop passes in KEY situations. (CHOKE!!) Gibbs will only tolerate it so long. And I doubt HE will be predicting the end of the world when he makes a couple changes to the starters. I wonder if you would feel so bad about the change if he benches BOWEN???? Why are you guys so hung up on Gardner and Ramsey, that you excuse their continuing, consistent, unimproving, poor play?

[QUOTE=Gmanc711]Seems like a awful lot of people in here think Ramseys not going to amount to anything. Everyones being so hipocritical, I mean this to to the upmost respect to everyone too, including hogskin. But I mean how can you all stick up for Hasslebeck and say he has potential, he has potential, and then be like, well Ramsey is just damaged goods already. Hasslebeck has so much more potential, get him in there. The simple fact is, we dont know what Ramseys potential is either. Just like they didnt knwo what Favre's was and what Jurguys was. Screw it, lets trade Ramsey, I hope he turns into a all pro qb somewhere else.[/QUOTE]

So now I'm a "hipocrit"??? Hmmm - I thought Ramsey DID get his chance - almost 2 full seasons. No improvement in obvious flaws.

[QUOTE=SUNRA]1.More NFL experience that Ramsey. (Throws the ball away)
2. Hasselbeck's first game as a Redskin was a victory over the Dolphins. He replaced Ramsey against a hostile Miami crowd and won.
3. Gibbs asked the question in training camp, who's that guy making those passes? He then said, we may have 3 QB's fighting for 1# spot.
4. Better footwork. Simply quicker than both Brunell and Ramsey.
5.Plays with passion. Unlike Ramsey, who looks like he's not enjoying his opportunity that few people have the priviledge to enjoy.
6. Can motivate this team to execute with confidence out of the huddle.[/QUOTE]

1: wrong. ramsey has more experience.
2: He lost his first game. but he did provide a spark and led them on a scoring drive. but that was because he had a simplified offence to run. spurrier said after the game he simplified things for him. When he tried to run the simplified offence against teams that prepared for it, HE GOT DESTROYED.

also, do you remember ramseys first game against the titans? he came into the game down 14 points and led up back to a win. [url]http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/gamelog?statsId=5918&year=2002[/url]
i think they had the #1 D that year. he was also sacked 5 or more times that game.

3: gibbs praises everyone in preseason. he even said mccant and jacobs will get a shot to start at WR.




4: he has good footwork and quickness, but he has the arm of elizabeth hasselbeck. arm stength isnt everything, but atleast guys like montana and even doug flutie can toss the ball 60 yards. TH cant get passed 50 yards. when you play a QB like that, the safeties just sit on the short routes becase he cant throw deep.


5: he is so passionate because he gets to bang elizabeth everyday. seriously, we see that spark every week when an underdog 3rd stringer has to to play. hell, doug flutie has built his career on that spark,he isnt starting either.


6: if coles and gardner continue to drop balls, it wont matter who we have at QB. without those drops, the game is easily won. if gardner caught that one stupid ball, we can run out the clock and make the safe throws. then then giants go into a press offence, bowen and taylor play deep and they get the INTS to close out the game not the giants.


7: stop watching "the view" and start watching some football.

[QUOTE=SUNRA]I stand corrected. Hasselbeck had 4 INTs against the 1# defense in the NFL . What games did Hasselbeck win out of the 5 ?[/QUOTE]

Hasselback won us the Giants game last Dec - his only win as a starter. I suppose we could also credit him with the first preseason win against the Broncos in the hall of fame game, but he didn't start that one.

Just a general point....I think timing between QBs and receivers takes a lot of time to develop (unless we have a Terrell Owens or Moss who more than likely always beat their man and get open). For this reason, it is important that we not rotate the starting QB, or the receivers. Brunell is experienced enough to get it right...so we'll have a few more ugly outings in the next few weeks....so what? Until then we'll find other ways to win...running game (if Portis isn't fumble prone) or the defense.

If Brunell can't go next week, I hope they choose the QB that has the next best timing with receivers and vision and is quick with his reads - if Gibbs and co. feel Hasselback is the one that's better capable of running the offense, then so be it. However, I do think Ramsey is the one that has the better timing with Coles and Gardener since he's been here longer than anyone, and gets more reps with the 1st team offense than Hasselback. You can say he made bone head mistakes yesterday, but we got to judge him in a come-from-behind pressure situation. If he starts and the score is even, we wouldn't expect him to play so recklessly. Simply demoting him behind Hasselback based on yesterday's performance is undeserved, in my humble opinion.

Bottom line, sometimes you just gotta bow down humbly and take it up the a$$ from the alignment of the stars. Who would've thought that Portis and Brunell would reverse their respective trends of no fumbles/INTs and Warner and the Giants would get their first win in 10 starts? I supported 5 different teams in 5 different leagues/sports this weekend, and they all lost - Red Sox, US in the Ryder cup, Maryland against WVU, Skins over Giants, and India over Pakistan in cricket.

[QUOTE=hurrykaine]Bottom line, sometimes you just gotta bow down humbly and take it up the a$$ from the alignment of the stars.[/QUOTE]

LOL!!!!! Excellent point, hurry. I can not disagree with that one!! It was definitely one of those days yesterday.

[QUOTE=Hogskin]So now I'm a "hipocrit"??? Hmmm - I thought Ramsey DID get his chance - almost 2 full seasons. No improvement in obvious flaws.[/QUOTE]

Almost two full seasons??? 6 starts in 2002 and 11 last season. With Spurrier at the helm. If you throw Joe Montana himself in our offense last season, we are still 5-11, maybe 6-10.

Jim Kelly's first season as a starter 4-12
Joe Montana's first season as a starter 2-14!!!
Peyton Mannings 3-13

Now, is Patrick Ramsey any of these guys? No. Will be be as good as any of these guys, proboly not. Does he make stupid decisions somtimes yes. Does he make good decisions too, yes. I'm just saying, cause we had one crappy season and one crappy game, lets not throw this kid out the door.

[QUOTE=hurrykaine]
Bottom line, sometimes you just gotta bow down humbly and take it up the a$$ from the alignment of the stars. Who would've thought that Portis and Brunell would reverse their respective trends of no fumbles/INTs and Warner and the Giants would get their first win in 10 starts? I supported 5 different teams in 5 different leagues/sports this weekend, and they all lost - Red Sox, US in the Ryder cup, Maryland against WVU, Skins over Giants, and India over Pakistan in cricket.[/QUOTE]


Man, what a weekend! Don't worry: the worm will turn! Gibbs is a winner. He will find the way to get it done. (Don't know about the sox, though...that's a long term problem!)

[QUOTE=Gmanc711]Almost two full seasons??? 6 starts in 2002 and 11 last season. With Spurrier at the helm. If you throw Joe Montana himself in our offense last season, we are still 5-11, maybe 6-10.

Jim Kelly's first season as a starter 4-12
Joe Montana's first season as a starter 2-14!!!
Peyton Mannings 3-13

Now, is Patrick Ramsey any of these guys? No. Will be be as good as any of these guys, proboly not. Does he make stupid decisions somtimes yes. Does he make good decisions too, yes. I'm just saying, cause we had one crappy season and one crappy game, lets not throw this kid out the door.[/QUOTE]

Jim Kelly NEVER had as slow a release as Ramsey.
Joe Montana NEVER had as slow a release as Ramsey.
Peyton Manning NEVER had as slow a release as Ramsey.
Jim Kelly NEVER was as slow as Ramsey in decision-making.
Joe Montana NEVER was as slow as Ramsey in decision-making.
Peyton Manning NEVER was as slow as Ramsey in decision-making.

Jim Kelly, Joe Montana, and Peyton Manning were able to correct their faults - Ramsey has shown an inability in that area. And THAT is what has become painfully obvious, more than 25 months after he joined the team and began his tutelage.

Ramsey will not turn into Joe Montana, no matter what hopes some of us may have had.

All I'm saying is these guys had a chance to develop, and I dont think Ramsey is being granted the same thing by us. Bottom line. I didnt call you a hypocrite (looked up the spelling on that one), I'm just saying that its werid that anyone can say that we dont know what potential Hasslebeck has, when Ramsey is in the same boat. Ramsey is clearly a better quarterback than Tim, and I just dont understand why people will stick up for him, just on the sole fact of throwing Ramsey to the wolves. No one can come here and say that Tim Hasslebeck should be starting for this team over Patrick Ramsey, and actually mean it. However, there have been quite a handful that have said that he should be the one to get the shot. Ramsey played 1 and 3/4 quarters yesterday, and people want to trade him based on that. Forget the fact he had the ball moving, forget the fact that two of those int's werent fully his fault ( the thrid one is inexcusable). We just want to get on his ass, for the sole pourpose of doing that. Again, I'm not trying to personally attack you or anything, you're one of my fav. posters and we ussually agree, but I wholeheartly 100% respectfully disagree with some of the posts people have made.

[quote]We lost because of 3 INTS in the 2 half of this game.[/quote]

no, we lost when the giants put up 17 points on brunell and portis in the first half, ramsey just didn't win it...

ramsey, in his last 12 games has thrown 15 TDs and 12 ints... in five games hasselbeck has thrown 5 TDs and 1 INT... [b]that's less TDs and more INTs per game[/b]

if ramsey is bad, hasselbeck is horrible...

[quote]1.More NFL experience that Ramsey. (Throws the ball away)
2. Hasselbeck's first game as a Redskin was a victory over the Dolphins. He replaced Ramsey against a hostile Miami crowd and won.
3. Gibbs asked the question in training camp, who's that guy making those passes? He then said, we may have 3 QB's fighting for 1# spot.[/quote]

1. not true
2. so what? ramsey has won games too, and besides, [b]tim lost that game[/b]
3. he may have said that, but guess what? after that 2 int game, timmy fell back out of that competition... he never played 1st string anyways (which is harder ;))

[quote]5.Plays with passion. Unlike Ramsey, who looks like he's not enjoying his opportunity that few people have the priviledge to enjoy.
6. Can motivate this team to execute with confidence out of the huddle.[/quote]

those are both BS, you're not in the huddle and you don't talk to them, so you don't know, sorry.

[quote]You thought Ramsey was going to grow into a great player like Tom Brady, Joey Harrington or Carson Palmer[/quote]

this was quoted to matty, but joey spent a lot of time sucking before he was worth looking at, and carson sat out an entire year in his system before playing... ramsey has sat out 1 game.

shane, trading ramsey would have left us with no recourse in the event that tim also sucked... we'd be even worse off...

manning went 3-13 his first year in a new system... its not something you pick up overnight... there's no promise tim will be any better at all, so trading away depth at QB would be silly... part of the problem is the massive turnover and new systems etc, it takes time for everyone to click... its hard when all the WRs practice and get rhythm with another QB and then you get shoved in to take over and make something happen... chemistry isn't made overnight (thats for the players and the system)...

PR telegraphs plays and hold on to the ball too long, but tim has a weak arm and throws more ints and less TDs... everytime you switch out players, it just makes it harder on everyone to try and keep everything together.

:lol: I love it. All very good points That Guy.

[QUOTE=Gmanc711]All I'm saying is these guys had a chance to develop, and I dont think Ramsey is being granted the same thing by us. Bottom line. I didnt call you a hypocrite (looked up the spelling on that one), I'm just saying that its werid that anyone can say that we dont know what potential Hasslebeck has, when Ramsey is in the same boat. Ramsey is clearly a better quarterback than Tim, and I just dont understand why people will stick up for him, just on the sole fact of throwing Ramsey to the wolves. No one can come here and say that Tim Hasslebeck should be starting for this team over Patrick Ramsey, and actually mean it. However, there have been quite a handful that have said that he should be the one to get the shot. Ramsey played 1 and 3/4 quarters yesterday, and people want to trade him based on that. Forget the fact he had the ball moving, forget the fact that two of those int's werent fully his fault ( the thrid one is inexcusable). We just want to get on his ass, for the sole pourpose of doing that. Again, I'm not trying to personally attack you or anything, you're one of my fav. posters and we ussually agree, but I wholeheartly 100% respectfully disagree with some of the posts people have made.[/QUOTE]

Very good post, Gman - I appreciate your diplomacy. The only thing I would point out again is that I am not basing my posts on yesterday's game. These are the exact same things I was saying here (many times) during the offseason and preseason. All yesterday did was give yet one more confirmation of what I have been saying about BOTH players. They have been very consistent for a very long time. Two calendar years IS long enough to at least see SOME improvement in major fundamental flaws.

You don't understand why people including myself will stick up for Hasselbeck is really shocking. Hasselbeck is paid to come in and clean up what the other two QB's cannot due to injury or mistakes. I don't care who we win with. Some of you are so absorbed in this guy that you would rather lose with him rather than win with a QB who is not as good as him. That's ignorance to the highest degree. Gmanc711 some of us were calling for Ramsey's head last year. He was not ready for the NFL last year and the same is clearly apparent today. This one game is not the reason I am burning my bridge, it goes back to the 2003 season. Our record was 5-11. Spurrier's fault right.

If Hasselbeck is not in the league with Ramsey, then Ramsey couldn't hold Joey Harrington's chinstrap. A Harrington is what we want. Not Bledsoe.

[quote]I stand corrected. Hasselbeck had 4 INTs against the 1# defense in the NFL . What games did Hasselbeck win out of the 5 ?[/quote]
he beat a giants team that had already quit and was well into a 0-8 finish to a 4-4 start that season.

in int/game, int/pass, TD/pass, td/game, win/game, PR beats TH... i think the depth chart is right... that doesn't mean PR is manning, but saying he's washed up is dumb.

[QUOTE=That Guy] but saying he's washed up is dumb.[/QUOTE]

Well, I said the same thing about Norman Snead, Desmond Howard, and Heath Shuler at this point in THEIR careers, too. I guess I was DUMB then, too. What you just don't get, is that it has nothing to do with wins and losses. It has to do with basic fundamentals that are seriously wrong, that he can not make any improvement on in 2 years. All of these guys had issues they made NO progress on in their first couple seasons. When that happens, guys, it just "ain't gonna get no better..."

He hasn't had a chance in real games to improve!

There's only so much improvement you can do in practice. Some parts of football you learn only by playing in games.

I don't think Hasselbeck is a clear cut better choice than Ramsey. But I think there is cause for concern with Ramsey. I'm not even going to consider the interceptions. As already mentioned, one of them was a miscommunication anyway.

But it is worrisome that Ramsey still doesn't seem to have pocket presence. And it's still aggravating how he keeps telegraphing his passes. Everyone knows exactly where he's going. In baseball, they talk about the difference between being a pitcher and a thrower. I think the same holds true in football. Ramsey can throw the ball but he's not a true quarterback yet-pocket presence, check off receivers. You'd like to think that by now he'd have improved in those categories but he hasn't.

Everyone needs to remember that Ramsey was taught by Spurrier to completely change the way he throws the ball and the way he reads a defense...and now to change it again. Plus, until now, he has never been in a real NFL system. Give the guy a little slack. Yeah, the INT's we're horrible, and he has bad habits that are being worked on, but give him a little time and he'll be fine. One positive I noticed was that his foot appears to be healed...he did seem to move around better. That said, if healthy, Brunell needs to stay as the starter. I was one of the ones pulling for Patrick to win the job, but it is clear that he isn't quite ready yet. If Brunell is hurt, he is still our best option though...I like Hasselbeck, but he is an average back-up at best (great for a #3 QB).

[QUOTE=Gmanc711]..... No one can come here and say that Tim Hasslebeck should be starting for this team over Patrick Ramsey, and actually mean it...... [/QUOTE]

This is exactly the kind of commnet that irks me about some of the rabid Ramsey fans. Some of you folks are so blind in defending Ramsey, that you say some outlandish things.
The guy with the most physical talent is not always the best QB/football player. Just because Patrick Ramsey has a stronger arm does not make him a better QB.
Look at New England for example. Drew Bledsoe, the first overall pick in the 1993 Draft. He has been to been to a couple superbowls and been elected to a couple of probowls. His arm strength is unquestionable.
Drew is struggling and gets hurt. In comes Tom Brady, a sixth round draft pick (last round) that was not even a starter in college until his senior year. Tom Brady does not have a strong arm like Bledsoe. But he is a smart football player and QB. Brady excels at reading defense's and making good/quick decsions (frequently compared to Montana).
Even after Brady helped New England win their 1st superbowl there was still half the patriots fans that wanted Bledsoe to start again because he is a better athlete and has a stronger arm. I think some of you might falling into this mind set. Bledsoe is now with Buffalo and still holds on to the ball to long. Brady won yet another super bowl.

Don't give up on Ramsey just yet he needs to relax. He is always going out there with the world on his shoulders he is so pent up trying to win a game and not make any mistakes that is exactly what he does. Compare him now to his first games two years ago and his poise and cold blood decision making has gone because for the last two years he has been hearing footsteps.

Maybe he will never recover but he needs to be remined that Football is supposed to be fun and not just painful. We give up on him now and he will be the next Trent Green.

All he has to do is do his best and no more. Trying to over reach is getting him into the trouble we are seeing. Besides this seems a rediculous thread after one game. Those calling for Tim now may be reminded he has only been in football one year thow him to the lions before he is ready then you may ruin another talent.

If there is a new QB next year it is going to be someone on the roster hell Tom Tupa might be in with a shot... who knows

Hey maybe we can get Matt Hasselbeck next year. I can't see Seattle being able to keep Matt, Shaun Alexander and Walter Jones (all who are due for new contracts)

I'm only joking about getting Matt........sort of

Seriously though, I don't think we should give up on Ramsey quite yet nor I do think Brunell is done

I really hope Kenyatta Jones is ok though

I hope all you PR haters out there stay of the band wagon when the kid start's to come around. And trust me he will. :dallas:

[QUOTE=Defensewins]This is exactly the kind of commnet that irks me about some of the rabid Ramsey fans. Some of you folks are so blind in defending Ramsey, that you say some outlandish things.
The guy with the most physical talent is not always the best QB/football player. Just because Patrick Ramsey has a stronger arm does not make him a better QB.
Look at New England for example. QUOTE]

I feel you on the Bledsoe/Ramsey comparison, but Bledsoe was a 7th year vet. You knew what you were getting with him. I've seen at least five different incarnations of Ramsey, I don't think anyone could peg down his style of play, unless you say it's "confused". And anytime anyone wants to bring up the Hasselbeck as a starter routine, I bring up last year's Dallas game in which he spotted Terrence Newman running free three times.

Should Hasselbeck get a shot? Unless the top two guys get hurt, I don't see how. You've got one qb who we just signed to a $43 million dollar deal. At second string you've got a 3rd year guy who was a former #1 pick. I think 2 games is an awfully short leash to start pulling for the #3 guy. If Brunell and Ramsey were singlehandedly holding the team back, maybe. But the problem yesterday was the entire offense. Wideouts dropped routine passes, Portis fumbles twice after fumbling 3 times all of last season, blocking assignments were blown (one of which on the last play of the game with only three rushers).

I'm not going to speak for Hogskins (or anyone else who has conerns about Ramsey) here but I think you can be critical of Ramsey and still be loyal, and not a PR-hater.

I'm rooting for Ramsey to do well. Not just because he's a Redskin but because I believe he has the ability to do really well in this league. Still, he has flaws in his game that can't just be overlooked. I think it's all mental really

That being said, Sunday's loss-as others have repeatedly said already-cannot be pinned entirely on Ramsey. Everyone is to blame

ive seen some iditotic statements on here.... but no need to argue. to all those who say Pat is done or washed up or needs to be traded.... what kind of loyal fans are you? How much do you understand football? If any of you all didnt notice, if gardner catches that TD pass and we got the portis TD, 1 int would not have been thrown, and another TD would be on the board making him 2TD and 2 ints. and why make critical remarks towards ramsey when the coaching staff is the one that called the play for coles to be hit on a fade route????? we have mccants, we have gardner, and we choose short and speedy WR over Possession WR in the RED ZONE???? that falls on the playcalling. Red zone passes calls for Cooley, Gardner, and Mccants all day. why was the play called for coles?... i dunno, not ALL ramseys fault on that. Im questioning some of yalls supposive faith as a REDSKINS fan.

[QUOTE=jrocx69]ive seen some iditotic statements on here....[/QUOTE]

I agree - but they are the ones I just now read. How in the world does being critical of one of a Redskin who can not "grow" out of his basic problems with fundamentals make you a non-fan?????????????????????????????? I have been a very strong fan for almost 60 years, and resent that. I was still a fan when I said Heath Shuler had to go. I was a fan when I said (in his SECOND YEAR) that Norv Turner had to go for us to be a winner. I was a fan when I said (in HIS second year) that Westbrook should go. I was a fan when I could not believe they let Stan Humphries go (I remember being AMAZED at an early Humphries play when he rolled out almost to the right sideline, and threw an "impossible", very strong pass to the LEFT sideline for a big play.) I was a fan when I HATED that we had Deion, and he was being beaten over the middle again and again. Do I have to close my eyes to bad play to be a fan??????????????

Just because I have a very good awareness of talent AND guys that are not able to overcome their faults, that does not make me anti-Redskins.

Oh, by the way, I still feel strongly they WILL be in the playoffs this year. But I don't think Ramsey or Gardner will be starting in the playoff gameS. Just my opinion.

Oh, and by the way, I fully agree with Smack. If Ramsey is in the game, I will be rooting and screaming with all the rest of you, hoping like hell he proves me wrong!

While the anger in this post is justified, I don't think singling out Ramsey is fair.

The entire team (except maybe the D) crapped out on this one.

I still (happily) see Ramsey as the future QB of this team.

[QUOTE=Defensewins]
Look at New England for example. Drew Bledsoe, the first overall pick in the 1993 Draft. He has been to been to a couple superbowls and been elected to a couple of probowls. His arm strength is unquestionable.
Drew is struggling and gets hurt. In comes Tom Brady, a sixth round draft pick (last round) that was not even a starter in college until his senior year. Tom Brady does not have a strong arm like Bledsoe. But he is a smart football player and QB. Brady excels at reading defense's and making good/quick decsions (frequently compared to Montana).
Even after Brady helped New England win their 1st superbowl there was still half the patriots fans that wanted Bledsoe to start again because he is a better athlete and has a stronger arm. I think some of you might falling into this mind set. Bledsoe is now with Buffalo and still holds on to the ball to long. Brady won yet another super bowl.[/QUOTE]

If Tim Hasslebeck had Tom Brady's Record, there wouldnt be this conversation. But he is 1-5 as a starter. Brady lost I belive 1 start the year he took over for Bledsoe, he went 9-7 the next year and then won another Superbowl. Tim played well, dont get me wrong, but we didnt win.

[QUOTE=Gmanc711]If Tim Hasslebeck had Tom Brady's Record, there wouldnt be this conversation. But he is 1-5 as a starter. Brady lost I belive 1 start the year he took over for Bledsoe, he went 9-7 the next year and then won another Superbowl. Tim played well, dont get me wrong, but we didnt win.[/QUOTE]

On the surface that sounds like a good argument, but there is a lot more to winning than the QB. (Just ask Sonny Jurgenson, one of the best pure passers ever). That NE team was a WHOLE lot better, especially on defense, and had a WHOLE lot better coaching staff, top to bottom. All you can take from TH's games from last year are a look at his skills. And you can get very little from that, because he did not go through training camp and had VERY little practice with the team prior to his first start. All I would say about TH is he should get another look at some point, especially after having what seemed like a successful training camp. But we know a lot more than that about PR. It just seems that some of us have different opinions of what we have seen the past 25 months.

[QUOTE=Hogskin]But we know a lot more than that about PR. It just seems that some of us have different opinions of what we have seen the past 25 months.[/QUOTE]

I agree. It looks like next Monday we can all sit back and hopefully see what he can do. Cause the early reports are that they are expect Ramsey to start next week.