Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

[quote=steveo395;559261]So we know the people sent there were tortured but you don't think the president of the Unites States knew?[/quote]

You know after the fact, the question is did you know before the fact and did president Clinton know that these prisoners were going to be tortured if they were renditioned back to Egypt. You do understand what the Directive you referenced states don't you?

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

[quote=saden1;559263]You know after the fact, the question is did you know before the fact and did president Clinton know that these prisoners were going to be tortured if they were renditioned back to Egypt. You do understand what the Directive you referenced states don't you?[/quote]
It seems Saden cares more obout terrorist then he cares about what happens to US citizens. You live in a pretty f^&*ed up state of mind.

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

in my opinion, most of this is water under the bridge. Bush and co. did what they had to do, and what they thought was right, at the time. if Obama disagrees, or wants policy change, that's his prerogative. but to argue over it is a big waste of time. what it boils down to is a definition. what is, and isnt torture

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

[quote=firstdown;559365]It seems Saden cares more obout terrorist then he cares about what happens to US citizens. You live in a pretty f^&*ed up state of mind.[/quote]



Yes, I care more about the tortured than the torturer. My state of mind is perfectly fine because I know exactly who I am, what I am and what I stand for.

[YT]h9ZQa1oZ3dQ[/YT]

[quote]...[T]he path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of the darkness. For he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know I am the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you.[/quote]

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

[quote=firstdown;559069]Why so much hate? First Rush now Chenney that you want to see dead.Funny how the left seems to be filled with so much hate but then they preach why can't we all get along. I never heard anyone here that seem to be a REP. speak of people on the left dying.[/quote]

Why do you make broad sweeping statements like "the left is filled with hate?" Seriously, you're an intelligent dude, I refuse to believe that you really believe all democrats or people on the left, as you put it, are hateful.

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

What Ezekiel 25 :17 really says (KJV):

[URL="http://bible.cc/ezekiel/25-17.htm"][B][COLOR=#810081]17[/COLOR][/B][/URL] And I will execute great vengeance upon them with furious rebukes; and they shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall lay my vengeance upon them.

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

[quote=SmootSmack;559246]Maybe he can be like Jimmy Carter and be a self-appointed "negotiator" around the world. That did wonders[/quote]

Both are free to do as they please.

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

Dude needs to get with the times as do many others in the party.

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

[quote=tryfuhl;559453]Dude needs to get with the times as do many others in the party.[/quote]

critisizing(sp) the obama admimistration [U][I]is with the times.[/I][/U]

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

[quote=70Chip;559428]What Ezekiel 25 :17 really says (KJV):

[URL="http://bible.cc/ezekiel/25-17.htm"][B][COLOR=#810081]17[/COLOR][/B][/URL] And I will execute great vengeance upon them with furious rebukes; and they shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall lay my vengeance upon them.[/quote]


Yes but Pulp Fiction's misquotation sounds sexier. Plus Ezekiel was a schizophrenic so it's all good.

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

[quote=12thMan;559396]Why do you make broad sweeping statements like "the left is filled with hate?" Seriously, you're an intelligent dude, I refuse to believe that you really believe all democrats or people on the left, as you put it, are hateful.[/quote]
Sorry I should have used the word some or many.

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

[quote=wolfeskins;559483]critisizing(sp) the obama admimistration [U][I]is with the times.[/I][/U][/quote]

touche!

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

[quote=firstdown;559089]Oh come on with the shooting and blowing up clinics. Every side has a radical fring but to say the pro life movement is full of these people is just crazy. When was the last time that even happened?[/quote]

sadly here's your answer

[URL]http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/01/us/01tiller.html?bl&ex=1244001600&en=41c84257b053c1ca&ei=5087%0A[/URL]

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

[quote=Mattyk72;560875]sadly here's your answer

[URL]http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/01/us/01tiller.html?bl&ex=1244001600&en=41c84257b053c1ca&ei=5087%0A[/URL][/quote]


So sad...I guess that DHS report on domestic terrorism wasn't really far off.

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

[quote=firstdown;559582]Sorry I should have used the word some or many.[/quote]

You possibly think "many" of the left are filled with hate? I think some is much more appropriate.

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

Why is it that the religous whack jobs are supposed to be on the right? Why do Conservatives continue to let the Left define them?

I can tell you what's hurting the Republican Party and that is its so-called leadership has no balls. George Bush was a punching bag for the Democrats in Congress when he was in office even though the Republicans had the majority. The GOP will not go to task with Soda-pop because they're affraid of being branded racist.

They let the left define them. How is it that Tim McVay was from the right when he was a Neo-National Socialist? The GOP thinks that the key to success is being just like the Democrats? Why drink near beer when they make PBR?

The sooner we get the Socialist / Progressives out of the Republican party the better. Good riddins Powell, Cheney, Bush, and McCain. Don't give me that crap about being war heros and he was the first this or that. Grant took Petersburg but as President he sucked!

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

[quote=Mattyk72;560875]sadly here's your answer

[URL]http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/01/us/01tiller.html?bl&ex=1244001600&en=41c84257b053c1ca&ei=5087%0A[/URL][/quote]

So one person acts alone and it defines everyone that you guys deem conservatives. What he did was wrong but what that doctor did was disgusting in its self. This is what this doctor did for a living to an unborn baby after 26 weeks and some times even longer.[LIST][*][SIZE=2]In this procedure, the physician pulls the fetus feet-first out of the uterus into the birth canal, except for the head which is kept lodged just inside the uterus. [/SIZE][*][SIZE=2]The base of the fetus’s skull is punctured with a sharp instrument such as a long scissors or pointed metal tube. [/SIZE][*][SIZE=2]A catheter is inserted into the wound and removes the fetus’s brain with a powerful suction machine. This causes the skull to collapse, and allows for the expulsion of the fetus.[/SIZE][/LIST]Sorry that is sick but this person should not have taken the law into his own hands.

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

[quote=firstdown;560941][B]So one person acts alone and it defines everyone that you guys deem conservatives.[/B] What he did was wrong but what that doctor did was disgusting in its self. This is what this doctor did for a living to an unborn baby after 26 weeks and some times even longer.[LIST][*][SIZE=2]In this procedure, the physician pulls the fetus feet-first out of the uterus into the birth canal, except for the head which is kept lodged just inside the uterus. [/SIZE][*][SIZE=2]The base of the fetus’s skull is punctured with a sharp instrument such as a long scissors or pointed metal tube. [/SIZE][*][SIZE=2]A catheter is inserted into the wound and removes the fetus’s brain with a powerful suction machine. This causes the skull to collapse, and allows for the expulsion of the fetus.[/SIZE][/LIST]Sorry that is sick but this person should not have taken the law into his own hands.[/quote]

No not really, I was just giving you an answer to your question.

As far as what the Dr. was doing, whether you agree with it or not he was not breaking the law.

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

[quote=Mattyk72;560945]No not really, I was just giving you an answer to your question.

As far as what the Dr. was doing, whether you agree with it or not [B]he was not breaking the law[/B].[/quote]
Which is a horrendous shame.

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;560953]Which is a horrendous shame.[/quote]

When did you become a social engineer?

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;560953]Which is a horrendous shame.[/quote]
There are many on the pro choice side which thinks the same thing.

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

It's a shame that someone was murdered by some wacko for doing his job.

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

[quote=Mattyk72;560945]No not really, I was just giving you an answer to your question.

As far as what the Dr. was doing, whether you agree with it or not [B]he was not breaking the law.[/B][/quote]As a friend of mine put it yesterday, "late-term abortions are sketch." In some states, it's explicitly illegal, and in the absence of that, it's usually a gap in regulatory law. Most clinics will deny to perform the procedure in the final trimester, because there are legal implications even in the states where it's not downright illegal.

I'm probably considered pro-choice, but there isn't a whole lot of moral gray area here. This man was neither brave nor the martyr the media is trying to paint him as. He was a fool providing a thankless service in a part of the country which is highly intolerant of unethical behavior.

I'm glad the shooting has been denounced universally as an overreaction, especially because it occurred at a church, which is totally ridiculous to even consider for me, but I'd stop short of calling this a tragedy. A hate crime, yes. I hope they catch the individual who did this and prosecute him to the fullest extent of the law. A tragedy, no.

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

[quote=Mattyk72;560962]It's a shame that someone was murdered by some wacko for doing his job.[/quote]
Not sure I'd call sucking the brains out of a 6 month or older fetus a job. Not sure how the guy could wake up every morning and look at himself in the mirror.

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

[quote=firstdown;560970]Not sure I'd call sucking the brains out of a 6 month or older fetus a job. Not sure how the guy could wake up every morning and look at himself in the mirror.[/quote]

Regardless the guy didn't deserve to be gunned down.

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

Ladies and Gentlemen...the abortion debate!!!

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

[quote=saden1;560957]When did you become a social engineer?[/quote]
Never became one. I'm not talking about overturning Roe v. Wade here. However, the killing of babies in the manner firstdown mentioned (partial birth abortion) is abhorent and the practice should be stopped. Not sure how anyone without a horse in the abortion rights debate would disagree. If I remember correctly you're against this also.

I saw this mentioned earlier and agree 100%, the moron who murdered the "doctor" did far more damage to the pro-life movement that anything the pro-abortion folks could've done.

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

[quote=Mattyk72;560971]Regardless the guy didn't deserve to be gunned down.[/quote]
I agree with you 100%. With that said its not hard for me to see how his job made alot of people very angry and it just takes one to be a wacko.

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

[quote=Mattyk72;560971]Regardless the guy didn't deserve to be gunned down.[/quote]

i'm not saying that the guy deserved it, but i do believe in what goes around comes around.

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

[quote=wolfeskins;561006]i'm not saying that the guy deserved it, but i do believe in what goes around comes around.[/quote]

So what are you saying exactly? Did he deserve to be killed?

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

[quote=Mattyk72;561007]So what are you saying exactly? Did he deserve to be killed?[/quote]
I would not say that but I could see how people think that killing him is infact saving lives.

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

[quote=Mattyk72;561007]So what are you saying exactly? Did he deserve to be killed?[/quote] i'm saying that there is a popular saying that goes "what comes around, goes around" i believe that saying to be true. i do not personally think he deserved to be killed,but i'm not upset about it.

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

His death isn't justified at all in my eyes but I'll just leave it at that. And I do feel bad for him and his family.

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;560990]Never became one. I'm not talking about overturning Roe v. Wade here. However, the killing of babies in the manner firstdown mentioned (partial birth abortion) is abhorent and the practice should be stopped. Not sure how anyone without a horse in the abortion rights debate would disagree. If I remember correctly you're against this also.

I saw this mentioned earlier and agree 100%, the moron who murdered the "doctor" did far more damage to the pro-life movement that anything the pro-abortion folks could've done.[/quote]

This former Navy "doctor" performed the procedure only in cases in which a) the mother's live was absolutely in danger and b) if the child had a severe or fatal birth defects. It's not like he performed late term abortion on a whim...by law if the mother health was in danger he had to get an independent doctor to sign off to perform the procedure. There are legitimate reasons to perform late term abortions.

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

not really related to the thread, but now we get this:

[url=http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,524139,00.html]Police: Recruiting Center Gunman Targeted Military - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News - FOXNews.com[/url]

it's days like these that make you just shut off the computer and TV.

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

[quote=saden1;561032]This former Navy "doctor" performed the procedure only in cases in which a) the mother's live was absolutely in danger and b) if the child had a severe or fatal birth defects. It's not like he performed late term abortion on a whim...by law if the mother health was in danger he had to get an independent doctor to sign off to perform the procedure. There are legitimate reasons to perform late term abortions.[/quote]
I agree a) and b) can be reasons for a late term abortion and the decision should be left up to the woman and not dictated by government. But I'm not sure this guy wasn't strecthing the limitations to third trimester abortions under the Kansas law. Either way it's a very sad situation for the unborn and the family of Tiller.

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

[quote=saden1;561032]This former Navy "doctor" performed the procedure only in cases in which a) the mother's live was absolutely in danger and b) if the child had a severe or fatal birth defects. It's not like he performed late term abortion on a whim...by law if the mother health was in danger he had to get an independent doctor to sign off to perform the procedure. There are legitimate reasons to perform late term abortions.[/quote]

Some people seem to think he is the devil or something.

I was just listening to NPR and the person interviewed was a former nurse with Tiller and now a part of a pro-choice organization(so take it for what you feel it is worth, it is legit IMO). She was basically saying the vast majority of abortions performed were first trimester AND the majority of women were either rape victims or with fetus abnormalities(the mother's life in danger).

Also she made a good point countering those who claim he was in it for the money. This guy could have been a dr. in any other field in any other place, not the in the middle of nowhere. This guy apparently worm a bullet proof vest at most times because he knew his life was in danger. I guess he didn't during his slaying, but still it seems there weren't too many pluses in his line. She said he knew that abortions in certain instances are crucial for women. One of the abortions he performed was a 10 year old rape victim. Do you pro-lifers seriously think that abortion was not needed in that case?

Finally she was clear that he was a good guy but not a saint like the media is portraying him; according to her he was simply a good doctor(helped his patients feel comfortable, etc.).


In general the good guy stuff, etc. could be BS and the entire thing could be a bit bias but serveral news sources have mentioned what I did note in my 2nd paragraph. How can one justify murder, based on their political beliefs? I still don't believe how one can even not feel bad for the guy; that is terrible. I want a response to this post before some of you guys keep on ranting that he deserved it.

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

[quote=hooskins;561093]Some people seem to think he is the devil or something.

I was just listening to NPR and the person interviewed was a former nurse with Tiller and now a part of a pro-choice organization(so take it for what you feel it is worth, it is legit IMO). She was basically saying the vast majority of abortions performed were first trimester AND the majority of women were either rape victims or with fetus abnormalities(the mother's life in danger).

Also she made a good point countering those who claim he was in it for the money. This guy could have been a dr. in any other field in any other place, not the in the middle of nowhere. This guy apparently worm a bullet proof vest at most times because he knew his life was in danger. I guess he didn't during his slaying, but still it seems there weren't too many pluses in his line. She said he knew that abortions in certain instances are crucial for women. One of the abortions he performed was a 10 year old rape victim. Do you pro-lifers seriously think that abortion was not needed in that case?

Finally she was clear that he was a good guy but not a saint like the media is portraying him; according to her he was simply a good doctor(helped his patients feel comfortable, etc.).


In general the good guy stuff, etc. could be BS and the entire thing could be a bit bias but serveral news sources have mentioned what I did note in my 2nd paragraph. How can one justify murder, based on their political beliefs? I still don't believe how one can even not feel bad for the guy; that is terrible. I want a response to this post before some of you guys keep on ranting that he deserved it.[/quote]Perhaps Dr. Tiller received a personal sense of justification from providing a service to victims of rape. I don't believe there's a such thing as an unjustified abortion. Clearly, it's never an easy decision for the mother, regardless of the surrounding circumstances. And if he felt the right thing to do was provide the choice to people who otherwise would not have had an option, then I think you could argue that he was a good doctor doing good work and/or caring for his patients. That's one way to look at it.

But if dudes going to wear a bullet proof vest around town because he's in that much danger, based on political ideology, what do you want me to say when some nutjob kills him after multiple attempts on his life already? Clearly, his self-preservation instincts were either broken, or being suffocated by a perceived selflessness to a minority group.

If his former nurse is right, and he could have had a job anywhere, then the rational move would have been to take a job elsewhere when he first had an attempt on his life. Once you forfeit your right to safety, death becomes more inevitable than tragic.

Clearly, the only justification for not leaving the Wichita area was a perceived sense of moral justification in his actions. It's sort of ironic, isn't it? People wanted this man to lose his license because of a questionable moral compass, but the only rational justification for his actions is a higher sense of what is right. They can't both be right, now can they?

The only certainty appears to be that the party that committed the homicide is guilty of moral wrongdoing.

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

[quote=saden1;561032]This former Navy "doctor" performed the procedure only in cases in which a) the mother's live was absolutely in danger and b) if the child had a severe or fatal birth defects. It's not like he performed late term abortion on a whim...by law if the mother health was in danger he had to get an independent doctor to sign off to perform the procedure. There are legitimate reasons to perform late term abortions.[/quote]
Thats what the law said but that was not the case with this doctor and why he had people coming from all over the US. It seems he used that as more of a cover to get away with what he was doing.
[url=http://www.abortionessay.com/files/Tiller.html]George Tiller: a Case Study[/url]

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

[quote=firstdown;561135]Thats what the law said but that was not the case with this doctor and why he had people coming from all over the US. It seems he used that as more of a cover to get away with what he was doing.
[URL="http://www.abortionessay.com/files/Tiller.html"]George Tiller: a Case Study[/URL][/quote]

Dude the website you cited was not a legit news source. This argument will never go anywhere if you cite things like that. A quote from the site...
[I]
[FONT=Arial]What motivates an abortionist? What must they think as they slash and tear a baby apart or plunge a knife into its neck? Somehow, abortionists have become callused to the reality of their actions. Like Shakespeare’s Macbeth, they have blood on their hands, and it cannot be washed off. They are like gas chamber operators during Hitler’s holocaust. They are like slave traders who traded in human flesh during slavery.[/FONT][/I]