Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=dmek25;559656]what if it was an American being water boarded? would that be OK?[/quote]

Yes. [U]All[/U] is fair in love and war.

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=Schneed10;559636]Reflects my feelings to a T. Hell, pull their fingernails off one by one for all I care. Do whatever it takes.[/quote]

Yup. My feelings as well. But obviously only if we have determined with the best possible intelligence that the person we're torturing is likely to have information that will help save American lives. If that's the case, proceed with 1 million paper cuts.

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=GMScud;559809]Yup. My feelings as well. But obviously only if we have determined with the best possible intelligence that the person we're torturing is likely to have information that will help save American lives. If that's the case, proceed with 1 million paper cuts.[/quote]

I don't even mind erring on the side of caution and torturing them "just in case" they carry meaningful intel.

It's been said before in this thread. Our guys' bodies get drug through the streets and hung from bridges, heads get cut off on the internet, and on and on. I don't think we should act like we're above returning the favor.

Cut their heads off and mail them to the middle east, just to send a message. What, like that's going to make them more at war with us than they already are?

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

Funny thing about war. In times preceding the 18th century, armies met on open battlefields and went toe to toe with one another. While just movies, the scenes from Braveheart tell the tale. Along comes the invention of the firearm and armies still battled in this manner, standing in an open field trading volley after volley.

It wasn't long before a group of militia figured out that hiding in the trees, bushes, and shrubbery could give their men a leg up on the opposition. One army stands out in the open and marching down roads in formation, while the undermanned rag-tag militia hid in the trees and continually ambushed the more powerful army, an army that was ultimately either too proud to adapt or too slow to do so.

Thus the Revolutionary War was won and the United States was born.

You can't criticize terrorists for fighting the way they are. They can't meet us head on, so sneaking around setting bombs and hijacking commercial planes is their next best option. And surely they aspire to sneaking a nuclear weapon into our country. Some might call this style cowardly, but if you want to win that fight you better figure out a way to combat it. If you don't adapt to their style you risk losing the war, no matter how proud you are of your values and way of life.

Sneaking around to set bombs and hijack planes requires coordinated covert planning. If you want to uncover the plan, you have to uncover the intel. Torture is the answer to the terrorists' version of ambushing the Red Coats from the woods.

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=Schneed10;559812][B]I don't even mind erring on the side of caution and torturing them "just in case" they carry meaningful intel.[/B]

It's been said before in this thread. Our guys' bodies get drug through the streets and hung from bridges, heads get cut off on the internet, and on and on. I don't think we should act like we're above returning the favor.

Cut their heads off and mail them to the middle east, just to send a message. What, like that's going to make them more at war with us than they already are?[/quote]

Oh neither do I. I'm not talking about without a shadow of a doubt type intel. If there's a good chance they know something, go get 'em.

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=Schneed10;559807]Yes. [U]All[/U] is fair in love and war.[/quote]

Thank you!

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=Schneed10;559817]Funny thing about war. In times preceding the 18th century, armies met on open battlefields and went toe to toe with one another. While just movies, the scenes from Braveheart tell the tale. Along comes the invention of the firearm and armies still battled in this manner, standing in an open field trading volley after volley.

It wasn't long before a group of militia figured out that hiding in the trees, bushes, and shrubbery could give their men a leg up on the opposition. One army stands out in the open and marching down roads in formation, while the undermanned rag-tag militia hid in the trees and continually ambushed the more powerful army, an army that was ultimately either too proud to adapt or too slow to do so.

Thus the Revolutionary War was won and the United States was born.

You can't criticize terrorists for fighting the way they are. They can't meet us head on, so sneaking around setting bombs and hijacking commercial planes is their next best option. And surely they aspire to sneaking a nuclear weapon into our country. Some might call this style cowardly, but if you want to win that fight you better figure out a way to combat it. If you don't adapt to their style you risk losing the war, no matter how proud you are of your values and way of life.

Sneaking around to set bombs and hijack planes requires coordinated covert planning. If you want to uncover the plan, you have to uncover the intel. Torture is the answer to the terrorists' version of ambushing the Red Coats from the woods.[/quote]


I see armies not changing the way they fight as a sign of pride. But, everyone seems to be debating the moral issue of torture and do the ends justify the means.

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=Duffman003;559831][B]I see armies not changing the way they fight as a sign of pride.[/B] But, everyone seems to be debating the moral issue of torture and do the ends justify the means.[/quote]

That's exactly what I'm saying, and it's exactly how the Brits lost the Revolutionary War, they were either too proud to change or too slow to change. Surely you're not suggesting we remain proud and uphold high moral standards at the risk of losing a war?

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=firstdown;559726]If Obama released the means of torture then why if it didn't work did he not release the results from what YOU call torture?[/quote]

Geez Firstdown, you all knock Obama for releasing the memo's.............saying it violates our security and makes us unsafer, or some crap like that. Now, you want Obama to release the information gained from it.........................I wish you all would just make up your minds.

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=saden1;559746]Are you suggesting the only reason the result weren't released is because they worked? A) Obama didn't release the means of torture, everyone already knew we were water-boarding so the release of the memos is immaterial and B) Obama professed in one of his speeches that torture might have worked though there are alternatives to torturing people to get information.

[yt]NLXVCZgF3_8[/yt][/quote]
Give me some other reason he did not release those memos with the others he released?

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=Schneed10;559817]Funny thing about war. In times preceding the 18th century, armies met on open battlefields and went toe to toe with one another. While just movies, the scenes from Braveheart tell the tale. Along comes the invention of the firearm and armies still battled in this manner, standing in an open field trading volley after volley.

It wasn't long before a group of militia figured out that hiding in the trees, bushes, and shrubbery could give their men a leg up on the opposition. One army stands out in the open and marching down roads in formation, while the undermanned rag-tag militia hid in the trees and continually ambushed the more powerful army, an army that was ultimately either too proud to adapt or too slow to do so.

Thus the Revolutionary War was won and the United States was born.

You can't criticize terrorists for fighting the way they are. They can't meet us head on, so sneaking around setting bombs and hijacking commercial planes is their next best option. And surely they aspire to sneaking a nuclear weapon into our country. Some might call this style cowardly, but if you want to win that fight you better figure out a way to combat it. If you don't adapt to their style you risk losing the war, no matter how proud you are of your values and way of life.

Sneaking around to set bombs and hijack planes requires coordinated covert planning. If you want to uncover the plan, you have to uncover the intel. Torture is the answer to the terrorists' version of ambushing the Red Coats from the woods.[/quote]
The problem with your conclusion is that they were to armies out to fight each other while terrorist hit innocent people. Now if you used the example of them using IED's (might have those letters wrong) while fighting us in Iraq then your statement would make more sense.

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=firstdown;559888]Give me some other reason he did not release those memos with the others he released?[/quote]

What are you talking about? If you want to make a statement, make a statement.

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=Miller101;559884]Geez Firstdown, you all knock Obama for releasing the memo's.............saying it violates our security and makes us unsafer, or some crap like that. Now, you want Obama to release the information gained from it.........................I wish you all would just make up your minds.[/quote]
I agree the information should not have been released in the first place but if your going to release the info don't pick and choose to fit your agenda. Which is how I see what he is doing.

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

Isn't it the case at this point that more journalists/celebrities have been waterboarded than terrorists?

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

maybe the word your looking for is should have....

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=70Chip;559975]Isn't it the case at this point that more journalists/celebrities have been waterboarded than terrorists?[/quote]

Yea but they are Americans so who cares.

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=Schneed10;559807] [U]All[/U] is fair in love and war.[/quote]

Far too many Americans are forgetting that.

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=Schneed10;559817] Torture is the answer to the terrorists' version of ambushing the Red Coats from the woods.[/quote]


And let's not forget, our Forefathers weren't sneaking around trees & bushes to ambush innocent people, women, children, etc. They were combating the British who were using old world tactics & still they victimized countless women & children as the went, destroying entire villages, towns & countrysides with rape, murder & then burning those establishments to the ground. Our Forefathers saw no other choice then to fight like the Natives who had used the exact same tactics during the French-Indian War. The ambush tactics were against military ONLY, not against harmless innocent people, which IS the tactic of the COWARD terrorist. Torture is sometimes the only means to an end. And as I said earlier, it is sometimes the only thing some people understand. Diplomacy can go only so far.

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;559672]Violence perpetuates violence.[/quote]
I come from the school of: Don't start nothing, won't be nothing.

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=Missin21;560086]And let's not forget, our Forefathers weren't sneaking around trees & bushes to ambush innocent people, women, children, etc. They were combating the British who were using old world tactics & still they victimized countless women & children as the went, destroying entire villages, towns & countrysides with rape, murder & then burning those establishments to the ground. Our Forefathers saw no other choice then to fight like the Natives who had used the exact same tactics during the French-Indian War. The ambush tactics were against military ONLY, not against harmless innocent people, which IS the tactic of the COWARD terrorist. Torture is sometimes the only means to an end. And as I said earlier, it is sometimes the only thing some people understand. Diplomacy can go only so far.[/quote]

There is no innocence and justness to war, either side. Man will always dominate man to injury. All these years and the world's leaders still don't get it.

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=4mrusmc;560119]I come from the school of: Don't start nothing, won't be nothing.[/quote]

I thought you renovated that school?

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=firstdown;559890]The problem with your conclusion is that they were to armies out to fight each other while terrorist hit innocent people. Now if you used the example of them using IED's (might have those letters wrong) while fighting us in Iraq then your statement would make more sense.[/quote]

You're missing the point. The point is not to compare the Colonial American tactics to those used by terrorists, I'm not arguing whether one is more cowardly than another (the answer to that is clear and not debatable). The point is that if the United States doesn't adapt to the tactics used by the terrorists, we could end up losing just like the British did.

The adaptation we need to make is to get comfortable using whatever means necessary to extract intel.

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=Schneed10;559883]That's exactly what I'm saying, and it's exactly how the Brits lost the Revolutionary War, they were either too proud to change or too slow to change. Surely you're not suggesting we remain proud and uphold high moral standards at the risk of losing a war?[/quote]

Would you say that Gandhi was too proud to pick up a gun and kill the British?

I wouldn't say we are being too "proud" to change our morals standards. The people who flew the planes into the World Trade Center are probably happy about our reactions and how we are changing our moral standards to try and stop them. We shouldn't be stooping to their level.

Also, I hope most of you people realize that we are not at war with Islam, there are plenty of people who are Muslim or from the Middle East who are not terrorists and are good people just like you think you are.

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=Duffman003;560187]Would you say that Gandhi was too proud to pick up a gun and kill the British?

I wouldn't say we are being too "proud" to change our morals standards. The people who flew the planes into the World Trade Center are probably happy about our reactions and how we are changing [B]our moral standards[/B] to try and stop them. We shouldn't be stooping to their level.

Also, I hope most of you people realize that we are not at war with Islam, there are plenty of people who are Muslim or from the Middle East who are not terrorists and are good people just like you think you are.[/quote]

Good lord that's hilarious.

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=saden1;559691]No I wouldn't resort to torture because I wouldn't assume torture was the only viable means of archiving the desired result. Furthermore, your argument for torture in this instance would pave the way for using torture in any scenario where someone's life is in danger.[/quote]
What are your alternatives to torture? What would you have done with KSM instead of waterboarding him to get information?

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=Duffman003;560187]Would you say that Gandhi was too proud to pick up a gun and kill the British?

I wouldn't say we are being too "proud" to change our morals standards. The people who flew the planes into the World Trade Center are probably happy about our reactions and how we are changing our moral standards to try and stop them. We shouldn't be stooping to their level.

Also, I hope most of you people realize that we are not at war with Islam, there are plenty of people who are Muslim or from the Middle East who are not terrorists and are good people just like you think you are.[/quote]

First off, nobody here is saying that about Islam, and frankly I find you a little off base with that comment.

Secondly, you haven't really made an argument. Why shouldn't we "stoop to their level"?

Thirdly, Ghandi won independence from the British. So if anything, I'd say it was the British who failed to appropriately adapt to Ghandi's civil disobedience approach. When Ghandi went that route it turned what could have been a military conflict into a political battle for public opinion. Britain failed to meet the challenge.

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=steveo395;560211]What are your alternatives to torture? What would you have done with KSM instead of waterboarding him to get information?[/quote]


Befriend him.

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

Take him to a nice BBQ joint.

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

The question was asked, I think by Dmek, that would you be for torturing people if they were Americans. I said yes, and I'm sure most of you were not surprised.

I thought about who would be the perfect candidate to torture. And then it clicked!

For the first American traitor to be tortured I nominate Adam Gadahn, aka the American Al Qaida. If anyone with the authority to put me in the postion to take care of this guy, all I ask is 24hrs, a pair of pliers, a blow torch, and a table saw. You'll not have to pay me. It would be an honor.

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

Is there any evidence that suggests torture leads to information being obtained and the correct info at that? If no, why is torture ok with people? I'm not saying it is or isn't the answer, I'm just asking if it's not leading to the desired result shouldn't other methods be considered?

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

Trample, perhaps Im wrong here -- but I believe the question was are you okay with Americans being tortured by terrorists, rather than American traitors.

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=Trample the Elderly;560241]The question was asked, I think by Dmek, that would you be for torturing people if they were Americans. I said yes, and I'm sure most of you were not surprised.

I thought about who would be the perfect candidate to torture. And then it clicked!

For the first American traitor to be tortured I nominate Adam Gadahn, aka the American Al Qaida. If anyone with the authority to put me in the postion to take care of this guy, all I ask is [B]24[/B]hrs, a pair of pliers, a blow torch, and a table saw. You'll not have to pay me. It would be an honor.[/quote]

It'd be my honor Mr. Bauer

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=Missin21;559690]Sometimes violence ENDS violence. If someone is standing there hitting you KNOWING you won't hit back, diplomacy won't end it. But if you suddenly stand up & punch the guy in the face a few times, he'll stop.

Diplomacy can go only so far. With some people & certain TYPES of people, violence is the only thing that works.[/quote]

Violence will never end violence. You claim it is ended in the situation you posed, but it is only temporarily gone. Awareness and Consciousness are the only ways to bring peace to this world.

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=Duffman003;560187]Would you say that Gandhi was too proud to pick up a gun and kill the British?

I wouldn't say we are being too "proud" to change our morals standards. The people who flew the planes into the World Trade Center are probably happy about our reactions and how we are changing our moral standards to try and stop them. We shouldn't be stooping to their level.

Also, I hope most of you people realize that we are not at war with Islam, there are plenty of people who are Muslim or from the Middle East who are not terrorists and are good people [b]just like you think you are[/b].[/quote]

Excellent.

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=Missin21;559690]Sometimes violence ENDS violence. If someone is standing there hitting you KNOWING you won't hit back, diplomacy won't end it. But if you suddenly stand up & punch the guy in the face a few times, he'll stop.

Diplomacy can go only so far. With some people & certain TYPES of people, violence is the only thing that works.[/quote]

Meanwhile the guy you punched just slinks away and plots his revenge. Violence doesn't end violence, it's an endless cycle. Especially when dealing with extremists. I'm not saying diplomacy is the answer either, but let's not pretend like hitting back solves everything in the end.

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=Mattyk72;560242]Is there any evidence that suggests torture leads to information being obtained and the correct info at that? If no, why is torture ok with people? I'm not saying it is or isn't the answer, I'm just asking if it's not leading to the desired result shouldn't other methods be considered?[/quote]
Pretty partisan article, but the information contained indicates there was much information that was obtained through "enhanced interrogations" that was not obtained by softer means. If correct, a second 9/11 in LA was thwarted by the actions of the CIA and Bush Admin.

[URL="http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=YWQyMDUzNjk4ZjFmMzhkZGJjZGI3OTRjOGYzMDQxMjQ"]Cracking KSM by Deroy Murdock on National Review Online[/URL]=

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

The answer is acceptance for the present moment, and hence acceptance for all that is. Everything has its perfect place and could not be other than what it is and the way it is.

... call me crazy.

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=4mrusmc;560119]I come from the school of: Don't start nothing, won't be nothing.[/quote]

It really doesn't matter, but ask yourself, "Who started this?"

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;560246]Awareness and Consciousness are the only ways to bring peace to this world.[/quote]

uggh

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=FRPLG;560255]uggh[/quote]

What is your plan to bring peace to this world?