Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=firstdown;564270]Are you comfortable spending 65 billion because thats about 2 billion per person if we use a realistic number of around 30 million who cannot afford health coverage.[/quote]

No, no, no, no it's not. You are assuming that the other 277 million citizens are going to choose private health care, which is quite obviously not the case.


AND, i hate to be a dick about this, because you do get piled on here but- $65 billion divided by 30 million people is roughly $2,166 per person, not $2 billion per person. Just a bit of a mistatement there.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;564266]Is it just about the speech and/or the issue of health care? Surely you don't need me to find proof of past Presidents and candidates censoring the questions they're asked? Or, is it not the censoring of questions, but the censoring of television ads? Seems like a silly thing to get upset over -- TV broadcasters have always chosen which ads to air, and which not to. This will not change.

Keep in mind, ABC is a private corporation and has no obligation to air any ads whatsoever. Like saden said, Fox has every right to oppose the President whenever they want, for whatever they want. I'm sure you'll hear plenty of opposition from Fox in the days (weeks? months?) following the speech. I'm sure you've already heard much opposition on the matter.

Anyone who wants to seek opposing viewpoints, and/or think critically can do so. The exclusion of opposing ads will not prevent that. [SIZE=3]Perhaps you just want opposing ads to influence the people who are not critical thinkers, and will not seek opposing viewpoints on their own?[/SIZE] Perhaps what you want is "fair and balanced" propaganda?[/quote]
Well why else would they block another opinion about health care issue and not even allow advertising of a different view?

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=firstdown;564274]Well why else would they block another opinion about health care issue and not even allow advertising of a different view?[/quote]

Because they have policies about airing "controversial" ads. Read the article SS posted.

Either way, it seems your concern is putting your thoughts into the heads of the sheep, when your concern should be the sheep themselves. If everyone thought critically, propaganda would have no use.

I support more critical thinking, and less propaganda. Seems you prefer the opposite.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=BleedBurgundy;564273]No, no, no, no it's not. You are assuming that the other 277 million citizens are going to choose private health care, which is quite obviously not the case.


AND, i hate to be a dick about this, because you do get piled on here but- $65 billion divided by 30 million people is roughly $2,166 per person, not $2 billion per person. Just a bit of a mistatement there.[/quote]
It does not bother me one bit when people correct stuff like that. I was on hold and not really thinking about the figure when I typed it out and you are correct on that. Everything else we will work on and maybe you will come around.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=firstdown;564278]It does not bother me one bit when people correct stuff like that. I was on hold and not really thinking about the figure when I typed it out and you are correct on that. Everything else we will work on and maybe you will come around.[/quote]

:food-smil

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=BleedBurgundy;564273]No, no, no, no it's not. You are assuming that the other 277 million citizens are going to choose private health care, which is quite obviously not the case.


AND, i hate to be a dick about this, because you do get piled on here but- $65 billion divided by 30 million people is roughly $2,166 per person, not $2 billion per person. Just a bit of a mistatement there.[/quote]

Just look at the mandated health ins. in Massachusetts which many say is very close to the Obama plan and their problem getting the healthy people to sign up for the plan. See what happens is that the goverment program they have to take the sick and the people who cannot get affordable coverage in the private market. That drives up the cost thus healthy people go out and find cheaper rates in the private sector and now Massachusetts program has gone from 633 million to 930 million in just 2 short years. Its only going to get worse for them and its one of the problems with Obama's plan. You can also look to Ca. and their problems from expanding goverment over the years and thats where the nation is headed.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;564276]Because they have policies about airing "controversial" ads. Read the article SS posted.

Either way, it seems your concern is putting your thoughts into the heads of the sheep, when your concern should be the sheep themselves. If everyone thought critically, propaganda would have no use.

I support more critical thinking, and less propaganda. Seems you prefer the opposite.[/quote]
You mean those sheep who follow Obama and can never see anything wrong that the king might say or do. Sheep, that's how he got elected and all those bus full of people they shipped to the voting booth and gave them directions on how to vote. Bahhhhhhhhhh

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=BleedBurgundy;564265]If so, then you should be agreeing with me. Since it is apparently the only way your broke ass is going to get healthcare. Also, i'm no pharmacist, but what exactly are the medicinal properties of spaghetti and meatballs?[/quote]

Don't go assuming things. My company offers health insurance. I used to have Anthem, but when an old lady blind-sided me they told me that my full coverage insurance didn't cover emergency room visits. I don't have health insurance for a reason, it's a racket.

I'm not broke either. It's just that after I'm finished paying for my own way through life (plus taxes) there's not much left over for bums and rich progressives who don't have to work for a living. I can afford to buy health insurance but why should I? When I really need it they'll tell me I'm not covered.

Let me spell it out for you. If you're so concerned for the poor and sick why don't you get off your ass and go and help them yourself? If that's not direct enough, how about you mind your own business and stop trying to get a free lunch. That's what this all boils down to. You and every other do-gooder stick your noses in other people's business and get upset when we don't like it.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=firstdown;564283]Just look at the mandated health ins. in Massachusetts which many say is very close to the Obama plan and their problem getting the healthy people to sign up for the plan. [B]See what happens is that the goverment program they have to take the sick and the people who cannot get affordable coverage in the private market. That drives up the cost thus healthy people go out and find cheaper rates in the private sector and now Massachusetts program has gone from 633 million to 930 million in just 2 short years.[/B] Its only going to get worse for them and its one of the problems with Obama's plan. You can also look to Ca. and their problems from expanding goverment over the years and thats where the nation is headed.[/quote]

That makes my head hurt. If it's driving up the cost of govt care, and the result is healthy people get cheaper insurance from the private sector... how is this bad again? And if that's the case, and healthy folks are getting cheaper insurance, they would naturally stop using the gov plan, so why then has the plan increased from 630 -930 m? That doesn't pass the sniff test. Got a link?

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Trample the Elderly;564285]Don't go assuming things. My company offers health insurance. I used to have Anthem, but when an old lady blind-sided me they told me that my full coverage insurance didn't cover emergency room visits. I don't have health insurance for a reason, it's a racket.

I'm not broke either. It's just that after I'm finished paying for my own way through life (plus taxes) there's not much left over for bums and rich progressives who don't have to work for a living. I can afford to buy health insurance but why should I? When I really need it they'll tell me I'm not covered.

Let me spell it out for you. If you're so concerned for the poor and sick why don't you get off your ass and go and help them yourself? If that's not direct enough, how about you mind your own business and stop trying to get a free lunch. That's what this all boils down to. You and every other do-gooder stick your noses in other people's business and get upset when we don't like it.[/quote]

lol. Look, i'm far, far, far from wealthy. But i don't mind paying out a bit extra if it means everyone gets to see the doctor. Me working to pay that bit extra is me "getting off my ass." Not sure there's a free lunch anywhere in this scenario since it's all being paid for by the taxpayer, i.e. you and I. I'm not going to comment on your personal decisions as to why not to carry any sort of health insurance, but for your sake I hope you don't run into a situation where you need it. AND- for the first time ever, i agree with you that health insurance is somewhat of a "racket." Which does nothing so much as make the case for it to be supervised and regulated by the gov, more so than it already is.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=firstdown;564284]You mean those sheep who follow Obama and can never see anything wrong that the king might say or do. Sheep, that's how he got elected and all those bus full of people they shipped to the voting booth and gave them directions on how to vote. Bahhhhhhhhhh[/quote]

I voted McCain for what it's worth, but a good idea is a good idea.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;564204]This kind of stuff isn't new -- it's been happening for a long time. Have you always been opposed to it, or just now that a Democrat is in office?[/quote]

A challenger appears!

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=BleedBurgundy;564293]lol. Look, i'm far, far, far from wealthy. But i don't mind paying out a bit extra if it means everyone gets to see the doctor. Me working to pay that bit extra is me "getting off my ass." Not sure there's a free lunch anywhere in this scenario since it's all being paid for by the taxpayer, i.e. you and I. I'm not going to comment on your personal decisions as to why not to carry any sort of health insurance, but for your sake I hope you don't run into a situation where you need it. AND- for the first time ever, i agree with you that health insurance is somewhat of a "racket." Which does nothing so much as make the case for it to be supervised and regulated by the gov, more so than it already is.[/quote]

You don't have to confirm what I already know. You don't want to do it yourself. You trust the government to do it for you. Do you honestly believe that the Federal "There's nothing wrong with Fannie Mae" Government is going to make things better?
It may be just a little bit for you, but for guys that are just getting by, a little bit here and there adds up. When people tell me they're going to help me or this is for my own good, it usually means I'm getting f**ked. Thanks, I'll pass if given I can.

Re: Obama Care
 

We pay for snotty ass kids to go to school and a bevy of other things. People should be talking about death taxes, investment taxes, property taxes, etc way before we're talking about preserving good health. We should be discussing gross overspending that does nothing to help the population.

People's angers are misdirected.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=BleedBurgundy;564290]That makes my head hurt. If it's driving up the cost of govt care, and the result is healthy people get cheaper insurance from the private sector... [SIZE=3]how is this bad again?[/SIZE] And if that's the case, and healthy folks are getting cheaper insurance, they would naturally stop using the gov plan, so why then has the plan increased from 630 -930 m? That doesn't pass the sniff test. Got a link?[/quote]

Because it the tax payers with the private plans that still have to pay higher taxes to subsidies the goverment program. The healthy people never got on the goverment plan in the first place. I'll have to post a link tomorrow because I'm heading to a cook out.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=saden1;564224]That's a new phrase I haven't heard before. And from the cost perspective? You're in the business of cost analysis...which would you prefer to pay for? Elective-preventative care or emergency care?[/quote]

Almost the same exact question as BB. Please see response here:

[URL]http://www.thewarpath.net/parking-lot/30288-obama-care-3.html#post564269[/URL]

Re: Obama Care
 

FWIW

[URL="http://emac.blogs.foxbusiness.com/2009/06/23/health-care-myths/"]Health-Care Myths at Emac’s Stock Watch | Fox Business[/URL]

Also, ever heard of Comparative Effectiveness Research. It's already funded in the Spendulus Bill, to the tune of $ 1.1B. Sounds like a good idea, research the most cost-effective treatments....not so fast. CER boards are used in countries with socialized medicine (oops sorry sounds too sinister, Universal Health Care) to ration health care and determine what treatments may be used and given to whom. Those of you with grandparents or parents in their 60s+ better pay attention because treatments such as heart valve replacements, hip replacements, etc. are denied to the elderly in many cases. If I'm full of partisan BS, why have the GOP senators drafted the following bill to stop exactly what is already happening in countries with socializ.....Universal Health Care.

[URL="http://www.cnsnews.com/public/content/article.aspx?RsrcID=49589"]CNSNews.com - GOP Senator Offers Bill to Prohibit Health-Care Rationing Based on Obama's 'Comparative Effectiveness Research'[/URL]

Is this the type of control we want to give to government bureacrats? Not me. Bottom line is there aren't a tremendous amount of uninsured in this country, less than 10% and at least 1/3 of them make over $ 50K per year.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Trample the Elderly;564300]You don't have to confirm what I already know. You don't want to do it yourself. You trust the government to do it for you. Do you honestly believe that the Federal "There's nothing wrong with Fannie Mae" Government is going to make things better?
It may be just a little bit for you, but for guys that are just getting by, a little bit here and there adds up. When people tell me they're going to help me or this is for my own good, it usually means I'm getting f**ked. Thanks, I'll pass if given I can.[/quote]

Trample, I am glad you can continue the argument. Me, I am convinced that the mob will believe whatever the government feeds them, regardless of real world examples in other large (not sweden/finland) countries shows. An increased government healthcare system is bad, it will be bad and our children will suffer for it. But, like so many already do, our children will continue believing in an America that no longer exists. One where personal responsibility, local government and community take precedence over big government solutions

Re: Obama Care
 

This has been long time coming...there is no stopping this. All those bogus knock-down talking points are toothless. Please believe that all your bases are belong to us.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=saden1;564316]This has been long time coming...there is no stopping this. All those bogus knock-down talking points are toothless. Please believe that all your bases are belong to us.[/quote]

The way people feel isn't a talking point. Your grammar conjugation is almost as bad as First Down's spelling.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Trample the Elderly;564317]The way people feel isn't a talking point. [B]Your grammar conjugation is almost as bad as First Down's spelling.[/B][/quote]

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_your_base_are_belong_to_us]All your base are belong to us - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url].

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=djnemo65;564319][url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_your_base_are_belong_to_us]All your base are belong to us - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url].[/quote]

You didn't expect me to know that did you?

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Trample the Elderly;564320]You didn't expect me to know that did you?[/quote]

Honestly, I don't know how anyone who lives outside of a cave could not. But it doesn't appear that you did.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=djnemo65;564321]Honestly, I don't know anyone who lives outside of a cave could not. But it doesn't appear that you did.[/quote]

Not everyone watches television anymore. Danger Mouse rules!

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Trample the Elderly;564317]The way people feel isn't a talking point. Your grammar conjugation is almost as bad as First Down's spelling.[/quote]

Hi there TTL, you're clearly not [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_your_base_are_belong_to_us"]in-the-know[/URL] and stupid as usual. You are a very stupid man. Is your stupidity due to a genetic defect or do you work hard at it?

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=firstdown;564241]Oh you mean those loans the goverment forced the banks to make. Do I need to serch out those YouTube clips of Barrney Frank and others lecturing the banks about how they have to make these loans to people who cannot afford them.[/quote]
Even Proof means nothing to some people FirstDown [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiEWCnpNnBQ&feature=related]YouTube - Covering Your Fannie, Who Really Caused Our Economic Crisis?[/ame] . These Dems and Clinton Administration officials ran the GSE's , Citi , AIG , And Countrywide .[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barney_Frank]Barney Frank - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url] . Some of these bums should be in Jail [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_Raines]Franklin Raines - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url] . [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Rubin]Robert Rubin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url]. She is the worst [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamie_Gorelick]Jamie Gorelick - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url] And Hillary , who never wanted workers to have health care while a board member at WalMart [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillary_Clinton]Hillary Rodham Clinton - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url].

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=saden1;564323]Hi there TTL, you're clearly not [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_your_base_are_belong_to_us"]in-the-know[/URL] and stupid as usual. You are a very stupid man. Is your stupidity due to a genetic defect or do you work hard at it?[/quote]

Surely you know how to break up your paragraph and not use the same word over and over again. I mean that's just stupid. he he he!

Are you getting married? I saw that you started a thread but that's not my thing. I thought liberals were against that sort of thing? Hopefully you'll not reproduce. Better yet, I hope you have a whole litter of mad dog conservatives.

As long as we are giving opinions of each other. I don't think you're very bright either. When you wish death on someone like you did Limbaugh, you're effing with Karma. So have a nice day dingus!

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=BleedBurgundy;564210]Sit back, take off your partisan hat and think about the most basic question: Should everyone, let alone every US Citizen, have access to quality healthcare?[/quote]

At whose cost?

Where did the idea get started that everyone has a 'right' to the services of another human being?

Re: Obama Care
 

Please, enlightened Communists, tell me how this works. If I don't have health insurance the government is going to fine me. At the same time, I'm paying for the health insurance of others. Is that about right?

Where is the money to pay for this coming from anyway? Social security is almost broke, medicaid is broke from what I hear, and the government has borrowed more money than it can print. So, if you have a magic lamp let me know. I'd like season tickets and the Swedish Bikini Team. I'm mean as long as you're handing out free lunches . . . . I mean those Swedish girls do provide a healthy service.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Beemnseven;564330]At whose cost?

Where did the idea get started that everyone has a 'right' to the services of another human being?[/quote] It will cost us as much as it did to " give everyone a house " . NO FREE LUNCH . I hope like hell that we improve our healthcare , but scrapping an imperfect system makes us much sence as the Redskins releasing our entire OL , WR's and JC because they were not a top 5 offense .

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=BleedBurgundy;564210]...
[B]You cannot be an advanced society when ANY percentage of your population are denied healthcare.[/B] Take a look at defense spending in the same period. I'd be interested to see how much of a difference there is in one as opposed to the other. Too many people get wrapped up in these emotional issues with ideas being labelled "democratic, republican or, oh my heavens, socialist."[B] Sit back, take off your partisan hat and think about the most basic question: Should everyone, let alone every US Citizen, have access to quality healthcare[/B]?[/quote]

Sorry but the first bolded statement is ridiculous. Denial of healthcare happens in every society on the planet. If you think otherwise I am open to being proven wrong, but you have to show proof of one hundred percent coverage for 100% of possible medical needs. You won't be able to.

As for the second one: no. quality healthcare is not a natural right(last I checked - there is no naturally produced healthcare system - doesn't grow on trees or appear in nature, was not handed down in the 10 commandments or Koran, and is not spontaneously occuring in the universe), nor is it implied or guaranteed in our Constitution.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=budw38;564333]It will cost us as much as it did to " give everyone a house " . NO FREE LUNCH . I hope like hell that we improve our healthcare , but scrapping an imperfect system makes us much sence [B]as the Redskins releasing our entire OL , WR's and JC because they were not a top 5 offense [/B].[/quote]

don't give away VC's strategies in a silly healthcare debate.... Geez ;)

Re: Obama Care
 

[url=http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/03/20/health/main681801.shtml?cmp=EM8705]Canadian Health Care In Crisis - CBS News[/url] [url=http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-tanner5apr05,0,2227144.story]Universal healthcare's dirty little secrets - Los Angeles Times[/url]

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;564336]don't give away VC's strategies in a silly healthcare debate.... Geez ;)[/quote] How are you CRedskin . I think we will be fine on offense as long as our Line plays well .

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=budw38;564339]How are you CRedskin . I think we will be fine on offense as long as our Line plays well .[/quote]

I am good, I think we are gonna do some real damage this year. Personally I 'm hoping atleast for the division title, but alas the season is sooooo far away.

I was just playing on your analogy; people are in such a hurry to scrap a system that has produced so many modern miracles, it just really amazes me.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;564341]I am good, I think we are gonna do some real damage this year. Personally I 'm hoping atleast for the division title, but alas the season is sooooo far away.

I was just playing on your analogy; people are in such a hurry to scrap a system that has produced so many modern miracles, it just really amazes me.[/quote] I agree , maybe I'am wrong but 85 % of Americans like the health care they have ? Of course , we should always look for improvements in everything we do as a nation and as individuals .

Re: Obama Care
 

As long as I can keep getting insured by a private HMO then awesome if not then I'm screwed.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Trample the Elderly;564317]The way people feel isn't a talking point. Your grammar conjugation is almost as bad as First Down's spelling.[/quote]

how do you post on the intra-webs and not get that joke? Do you need a dancing banana to help you?

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;564334]Sorry but the first bolded statement is ridiculous. Denial of healthcare happens in every society on the planet. If you think otherwise I am open to being proven wrong, but you have to show proof of one hundred percent coverage for 100% of possible medical needs. You won't be able to.

As for the second one: no. quality healthcare is not a natural right(last I checked - there is no naturally produced healthcare system - doesn't grow on trees or appear in nature, was not handed down in the 10 commandments or Koran, and is not spontaneously occuring in the universe), nor is it implied or guaranteed in our Constitution.[/quote]

When we can provide health benefits to 100% of our citizens for a fraction of our defense spending, yeah, I say do it. It's not ridiculous, it's enlightened. To that end, i'll leave this discussion with a quote.

“Man has such a predilection for systems and abstract deductions that he is ready to distort the truth intentionally, he is ready to deny the evidence of his senses only to justify his logic” Fyodor Dostoyevsky

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=BleedBurgundy;564352]how do you post on the intra-webs and not get that joke? Do you need a dancing banana to help you?[/quote]

What's an intra-web, a blog?