Re: Zorn Makes Great Progress with New Offense Geared To Campbells Talents
 

Last year (first year head coach)Zorn,used Portis as a safety net.Trying to learn as you go,he made mistakes,just as anyone else trying something new.Proceed with caution,back of instead of taking risks,etc.You all know what i mean.Expect a more attacking style offense this year,anyone that watched Zorn play,knows his intensity.

Re: Zorn Makes Great Progress with New Offense Geared To Campbells Talents
 

[quote=GTripp0012;584356]It may not be proper attribution, but Brandon Lloyd certainly deserves it.[/quote]

yeah i remember that play like it was yesterday . . . . skins sctrechin the field this year? please children im smart enough to know this teams strengths is running the ball and defense. im not gonna be lulled into the fairy tale that this same team with the same weapons is suddenly gonna be explosive. i expect JC to be efficient and our team offense to produce exactly the same as its been with campbell, portis moss and cooley.

these guys are our offense and theyve been here for years. we are a defensive team with a penchant for running the ball down teams throats. im a defense guy so i dont give 2 rats asses how little but progresivly better cambpell and the passing game gets. as long as they can keep defenses guessin and respectin the pass i could care less at our never had stretchin the field pipe dream.

this same crap has been said and hoped upon every year for as long as i can remember, fin jeff george, b llyood and ARE ring a bell? now we think tall receivers are the way to go with kelly n thomas.

get a franchise qb to compliment this D. i know these dont grow under trees but we cant stop tryin/lookin then we dont need to tailor eveyrthing perfectly around an adequate qb.

fickty im rarely drunk postin

go skins

Re: Zorn Makes Great Progress with New Offense Geared To Campbells Talents
 

[quote=T.O.Killa;584314]I am so glad that Zorn has tailored the offense to Campbell's talents. [B]I thought that Joe Gibbs made a huge mistake hiring Saunders, because Campbell's talents were best suited to Joe Gibbs vertical style of offense. He is a deep ball passer like Mark Rypien. The west coast offense was never suited to his talents. [/B]I think that if they go with this down field vertical passing game there is hope for Campbell staying in Washington and taking us to the promise land. With the emergence of Mitchell, Kelly and Thomas, along with Moss, we should be a big play powerhouse.[/quote]


Al Saunders' offense [I]was[/I] a deep, vertical passing style offense. But Gibbs was extra conservative the second time around and had veto power over Saunders' play calling.

The 'West Coast' system is what we have now with Jim Zorn. Saunders was never a West Coast guy. He's from the Air Coryell system along with Norv Turner, Ernie Zampese, Dan Henning, and Mike Martz.

Re: Zorn Makes Great Progress with New Offense Geared To Campbells Talents
 

im not getting why some people think its going to be bombs away this year. that goes against the principles of the west coast. its all about timing, hitting guys in stride. and Y.A.C

Re: Zorn Makes Great Progress with New Offense Geared To Campbells Talents
 

[quote=dmek25;584925]im not getting why some people think its going to be bombs away this year. that goes against the principles of the west coast. its all about timing, hitting guys in stride. and Y.A.C[/quote]

What Zorn runs isn't necessarily a pure and true WCO though. Hell what the WCO is in the NFL now really isn't what it used to be. Everyone has added their own spin to it.

Re: Zorn Makes Great Progress with New Offense Geared To Campbells Talents
 

Randy Cross, who played for Bill Walsh once said that nobody is really playing the true West Coast offense anymore.

I think the closest thing to the original was Mike Holmgren's offense. Even then though, Montana and Favre both threw bombs downfield.

Re: Zorn Makes Great Progress with New Offense Geared To Campbells Talents
 

[quote=Beemnseven;584959]Randy Cross, who played for Bill Walsh once said that nobody is really playing the true West Coast offense anymore.

I think the closest thing to the original was Mike Holmgren's offense. [B]Even then though, Montana and Favre both threw bombs downfield.[/B][/quote]

Thank you!

Somehow the WCO has gotten the false reputation for being short pass only. Some people think that the WCO and a vertical passing game are opposites. The fact is, although the WCO stresses short passes, there always has been a vertical component. The vertical game is there for its own sake and also to open up space for shorter routes. Anyone who remembers Jerry Rice and John Taylor racing past defenders on go routes knows this.

Re: Zorn Makes Great Progress with New Offense Geared To Campbells Talents
 

[quote=Lotus;584963]Thank you!

Somehow the WCO has gotten the false reputation for being short pass only. Some people think that the WCO and a vertical passing game are opposites. The fact is, although the WCO stresses short passes, there always has been a vertical component. The vertical game is there for its own sake and also to open up space for shorter routes. Anyone who remembers Jerry Rice and John Taylor racing past defenders on go routes knows this.[/quote]Zorn also relies on the vertical routes more than most coaches to open up the underneath. Other WCO versions sometimes like to use the backs on swing passes to open up the middle of the field for the receivers, but Zorn prefers to run 'em off.

Re: Zorn Makes Great Progress with New Offense Geared To Campbells Talents
 

[quote=Lotus;584963]Thank you!

Somehow the WCO has gotten the false reputation for being short pass only. Some people think that the WCO and a vertical passing game are opposites. The fact is, although the WCO stresses short passes, there always has been a vertical component. The vertical game is there for its own sake and also to open up space for shorter routes. Anyone who remembers Jerry Rice and John Taylor racing past defenders on go routes knows this.[/quote]


That's right tell them my brother.

Re: Zorn Makes Great Progress with New Offense Geared To Campbells Talents
 

To make it short and sweet - If J.C. and Zorn do not AT LEAST double the amount of passing plays that went for over 20 yards last year, Portis will have under 4.0 ypc and you will see frustration set in by week 6. Gotta open the field up fellas, gotta.

Re: Zorn Makes Great Progress with New Offense Geared To Campbells Talents
 

[quote=Lotus;584963]Thank you!

Somehow the WCO has gotten the false reputation for being short pass only. Some people think that the WCO and a vertical passing game are opposites. The fact is, although the WCO stresses short passes, there always has been a vertical component. The vertical game is there for its own sake and also to open up space for shorter routes. Anyone who remembers Jerry Rice and John Taylor racing past defenders on go routes knows this.[/quote]

Exactly. We just weren't prepared for that part of the offense yet. O-line injuries, rookie receivers who weren't ready, trying to get the limited plays we did have run well etc. Now we are.

Re: Zorn Makes Great Progress with New Offense Geared To Campbells Talents
 

Bill Walsh himself recognized the value of play action and 7-step drop plays and their usefulness in nabbing TDs.

Also, he WCO was born out of necessity to accomodate to his QBs' strengths way back when injury took out his original starter and he was left with noodle-armed Virgil Carter, so Zorn accomodating the offense to his QB's, JC strengths(big arm, better on longer passes than shorter ones) etc is NOT something that is 'forbbiden' in the WCO coaching tree.

Of course, going deep requires talented deep threats, of which we only had one in Santana Moss, and good pass pro. ARE(slot receiver) and James Thrash(special teamer) simply did not scare defenses enough to pull defenders away from Moss and Cooley is obviously more of a possession guy.

Re: Zorn Makes Great Progress with New Offense Geared To Campbells Talents
 

Dont forget, I started this pro Campbell thread.

Re: Zorn Makes Great Progress with New Offense Geared To Campbells Talents
 

I was listening to Phil Simms on Washington Post live. He sad that he thought that Jim Zorn has changed his offense to suit JC needs. He also said that he said we could be a very good team.

Re: Zorn Makes Great Progress with New Offense Geared To Campbells Talents
 

The West Coast system is essentially throwing for 3 yards instead of running for 3...all that other crap is irrelevant...such as throwing bombs...that is all part of any system.
It's just how deep passes are done.

The odd part is we have Portis, so technically, there is no real reason to run a west coast system here since we have the abiility to run for 3 consistantly...and when you have that ability, you can run play action effectively...which is typically rare in WC systems....because, WC passes for short yardage and don't run.

If we can do both, we will be in very good shape, but, as someone else has mentioned, there is no real substantial change in our offense other than more experience...unless a rookie wideout suddenly becomes highly productive.

This offense will have to prove it for me to believe we can open it up.
I was impressed in a few deep balls in the last couple preseason games...but those are no risk games. Lets wait and see what Zorn calls in live games.

Also, I saw VERY LITTLE misdirection in the offense in preseason, very few screens...which match our very quick WRs, no reverses. No motion, pitches were rare, no shovel passes. The problem last year was a predictable offense. If you cant throw deep effectively, you still have all these tools to use to keep a defense off of Portis. Zorn didn't use them, and he certainly didn't practice this offseason.
If you don't practice something, you cannot execute it.

So my fear is this....our offense will be very basic again with no creativity.
It will essentially come down to execution.
Misdirection covers a multitude of execution deficiencies.
Zorn hasn't figured that out yet.

Will he have Campbell throw deep?
He better...it is the only hope to get some freedom for Portis because Zorn aint gunna do anything creative on offense

Re: Zorn Makes Great Progress with New Offense Geared To Campbells Talents
 

skinsnut, you are gonna be surprised tomorrow, I promise you that. Last year Zorn focused on implementing the basics, that is pretty common practice for teaching. He has to trust everyone is on the same page. This year will be different, he said as much over and over. I suppose they could prove me wrong, but I think the players and coaches know what we don't. I think Zorn and the offense will be very creative, and just cause we didn't see it in preseason, doesn't mean they didn't practice it. Now I am not calling for a Saunderesque playbook, but he will be very aggressive.

Re: Zorn Makes Great Progress with New Offense Geared To Campbells Talents
 

[quote=skinsnut;587257]The West Coast system is essentially throwing for 3 yards instead of running for 3...all that other crap is irrelevant...such as throwing bombs...that is all part of any system.
It's just how deep passes are done.

The odd part is we have Portis, so technically, there is no real reason to run a west coast system here since we have the abiility to run for 3 consistantly...and when you have that ability, you can run play action effectively...which is typically rare in WC systems....because, WC passes for short yardage and don't run.

If we can do both, we will be in very good shape, but, as someone else has mentioned, there is no real substantial change in our offense other than more experience...unless a rookie wideout suddenly becomes highly productive.

This offense will have to prove it for me to believe we can open it up.
I was impressed in a few deep balls in the last couple preseason games...but those are no risk games. Lets wait and see what Zorn calls in live games.

[B]Also, I saw VERY LITTLE misdirection in the offense in preseason, very few screens...which match our very quick WRs, no reverses. No motion, pitches were rare, no shovel passes. The problem last year was a predictable offense. [/B] If you cant throw deep effectively, you still have all these tools to use to keep a defense off of Portis. Zorn didn't use them, and he certainly didn't practice this offseason.
If you don't practice something, you cannot execute it.

So my fear is this....our offense will be very basic again with no creativity.
It will essentially come down to execution.
Misdirection covers a multitude of execution deficiencies.
Zorn hasn't figured that out yet.

Will he have Campbell throw deep?
He better...it is the only hope to get some freedom for Portis because Zorn aint gunna do anything creative on offense[/quote]

Your concerns about misdirection may be well-founded.

Then again, you are not going to show your tricks in open practices or preseason games. We might see plenty of misdirection starting Sunday.

Re: Zorn Makes Great Progress with New Offense Geared To Campbells Talents
 

do we ever see ARE run an option in pre season? I doubt it. In fact the iggles showed lots of stuff with Vick, and all that meant is they weren't "getting into a rhythm" and gelling on the basics. I doubt the Patriots or Colts ran many trick plays either. Pre-season is for getting out there knocking the rust off and coming together as a unit. The trick plays or special plays will come, I am sure of that. (Hopefully not a TE reverse at the 50 though)

Re: Zorn Makes Great Progress with New Offense Geared To Campbells Talents
 

Moss and Randel El got to go their time is up. Scrap the Offense and buid it up around a new QB. Skin's go 8-8 again this year. Even if we had River's or Payton Manning they will achive nothing with these 2 number 3 receivers .

Re: Zorn Makes Great Progress with New Offense Geared To Campbells Talents
 

Show me!

Re: Zorn Makes Great Progress with New Offense Geared To Campbells Talents
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;587262]skinsnut, you are gonna be surprised tomorrow, I promise you that. Last year Zorn focused on implementing the basics, that is pretty common practice for teaching. He has to trust everyone is on the same page. This year will be different, he said as much over and over. I suppose they could prove me wrong, but I think the players and coaches know what we don't. I think Zorn and the offense will be very creative, and just cause we didn't see it in preseason, doesn't mean they didn't practice it. Now I am not calling for a Saunderesque playbook, but he will be very aggressive.[/quote]

Stillllll Waiting.......

Re: Zorn Makes Great Progress with New Offense Geared To Campbells Talents
 

[quote=Chico23231;589698]Stillllll Waiting.......[/quote]

:( I was wrong.

:) wait till this week! LOL

Re: Zorn Makes Great Progress with New Offense Geared To Campbells Talents
 

[quote=T.O.Killa;584314]I am so glad that Zorn has tailored the offense to Campbell's talents. I thought that Joe Gibbs made a huge mistake hiring Saunders, because Campbell's talents were best suited to Joe Gibbs vertical style of offense. He is a deep ball passer like Mark Rypien. The west coast offense was never suited to his talents. I think that if they go with this down field vertical passing game there is hope for Campbell staying in Washington and taking us to the promise land. With the emergence of Mitchell, Kelly and Thomas, along with Moss, we should be a big play powerhouse.[/quote]

Does Campbell have talents? Compared to who ?

Skin's in the past had running and passing threats but running is the best for the strategy in the NFC East just look at NY Giants. Jay Schroeder was a deep ball passer and what did he do against the Giants defense in 86?

Also M.Rypien had Gary Clark , Monk, Sanders !



Moss and Randel El are #3's in many other teams .

Re: Zorn Makes Great Progress with New Offense Geared To Campbells Talents
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;589701]:( I was wrong.

:) wait till this week! LOL[/quote]

Dude I hope, I wanted you to be right. F the F-ing Giants...Hopefully Ole Danny Boy after drinking burbon all game, in his pissed off misery went down to Zorn after the game and said "open up the playbook to passing section and lets go!"

Re: Zorn Makes Great Progress with New Offense Geared To Campbells Talents
 

I am very sad that I called this because the result was negative, but, c'mon kool aid drinkers, look at the team objectively. I am worried about D Hall's coverage and tackling skills too....he is going to blow coverage and tackles and get picks all year.
Sometimes its a wash.
We got 3 pts out of his pick, we lost 7 due to his mistackle...(really 4 pts since they were already in FG range)

We have good players....some weaknesses that will be blantantly exposed by Professional D coordinators...such as Orapko, Fletcher and Hall in coverage.
And a lot of wide runs aimed at Hall.

On offense, attacking the RT, getting physical with Moss at the line and cramming the box...it is pretty easy to game plan the Skins at this point.
It is just game one, but our coaches were very slow to make adjustments last year...they have now had 9 months to adjust what good coaches can adjust at halftime...

If you don't change what you do....you cannot expect different results....Duh!

Re: Zorn Makes Great Progress with New Offense Geared To Campbells Talents
 

Still want to see Zorn actually tinker with the offense to suite JC. Seemed to only do it during the 2 minute drill when scoring was no longer optionable if we were to have even the slightest chance of winning. ARE was the only wideout that did any damage Sunday.

Re: Zorn Makes Great Progress with New Offense Geared To Campbells Talents
 

[quote=skinsnut;589843]I am very sad that I called this because the result was negative, but, c'mon kool aid drinkers, look at the team objectively. I am worried about D Hall's coverage and tackling skills too....he is going to blow coverage and tackles and get picks all year.
Sometimes its a wash.
We got 3 pts out of his pick, we lost 7 due to his mistackle...(really 4 pts since they were already in FG range)

We have good players....some weaknesses that will be blantantly exposed by Professional D coordinators...such as Orapko, Fletcher and Hall in coverage.
And a lot of wide runs aimed at Hall.

On offense, attacking the RT, getting physical with Moss at the line and cramming the box...it is pretty easy to game plan the Skins at this point.
It is just game one, but our coaches were very slow to make adjustments last year...they have now had 9 months to adjust what good coaches can adjust at halftime...

If you don't change what you do....you cannot expect different results....Duh![/quote]

The D gave up 1 Offensive TD. The Offense is the problem. Period.

Re: Zorn Makes Great Progress with New Offense Geared To Campbells Talents
 

[quote=Njall;589705]Does Campbell have talents? Compared to who ?

Skin's in the past had running and passing threats but running is the best for the strategy in the NFC East just look at NY Giants. Jay Schroeder was a deep ball passer and what did he do against the Giants defense in 86?

Also M.Rypien had Gary Clark , Monk, Sanders !



Moss and Randel El are #3's in many other teams .[/quote]
Nobody moved the ball on NY in 86 ,,, NY held SF to 6 pts in 2 playoff games 85-86 seasons . Clark dropped atleast two bombs in the NFC Title game < it was very windy > or we might have won a Lombardi Trophy that year . I agree , running is what wins Championships ,,, along with DEF !!

Re: Zorn Makes Great Progress with New Offense Geared To Campbells Talents
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;589701]:( I was wrong.

:) wait till this week! LOL[/quote]

Like you I will keep waiting. But don't expect to seemuch as the season goes on. Zorn has nothing to show because he has nothing to show in terms of playing. People wants to still jabe out at the oline. I line did farely well but the front office could have poassibily changed that during the draft.

I know we all can be arm chair critics but you know i have seen on the forms there are some good ideas coming from others that I trully feel would help zorn and not hurt him. But we know they would listen but if they would Zorn would find some way in his piss poor game calling to mess even those ideas up.

As far as Zorn being a leader I personnily don't believe he could lead a group of cub scouts into a ice cream store giving away free ice cream.

Re: Zorn Makes Great Progress with New Offense Geared To Campbells Talents
 

[quote=skinsnut;589843]I am very sad that I called this because the result was negative, but, c'mon kool aid drinkers, look at the team objectively. I am worried about D Hall's coverage and tackling skills too....he is going to blow coverage and tackles and get picks all year.
Sometimes its a wash.
We got 3 pts out of his pick, we lost 7 due to his mistackle...(really 4 pts since they were already in FG range)

We have good players....some weaknesses that will be blantantly exposed by Professional D coordinators...such as Orapko, Fletcher and Hall in coverage.
And a lot of wide runs aimed at Hall.

On offense, attacking the RT, getting physical with Moss at the line and cramming the box...it is pretty easy to game plan the Skins at this point.
It is just game one, but our coaches were very slow to make adjustments last year...they have now had 9 months to adjust what good coaches can adjust at halftime...

If you don't change what you do....you cannot expect different results....Duh![/quote]


Hall and the Defense was weak in tackling in general. That play against Manningham was a joke......!

Re: Zorn Makes Great Progress with New Offense Geared To Campbells Talents
 

[quote=budw38;589878]Nobody moved the ball on NY in 86 ,,, NY held SF to 6 pts in 2 playoff games 85-86 seasons . Clark dropped atleast two bombs in the NFC Title game < it was very windy > or we might have won a Lombardi Trophy that year . I agree , running is what wins Championships ,,, along with DEF !![/quote]


I remember that game and Giants had the a great Defense. But to win in the NFC East you need a power runner ... Smash mouth football. Cowboys in the 90's with Emmit and Giants had Morris in '86. Skins need a another Power Runner.