Re: Offensive Line
 

[quote=Mattyk72;622644]It's a jailbreak nearly every time JC drops back. I honestly feel bad for the guy.[/quote]Since the Panthers game, teams have figured out that our protection schemes are just as vulnerable to 3 man rushes as 4 man rushes. It's not that you can't get pressure on our QB with 4 guys, it's that: why would you even give our receivers a chance?

It's worth pointing out that if the quarterback can't get 5 to 6 seconds against a 3 man rush, he doesn't have a prayer of getting more than 5 yards on a pass. Right now, not only can Campbell not get 5 to 6 seconds to throw, he's not even likely to get a throw off anymore.

The protection skills of players like Sellers and Betts are just frankly embarrassing. We're keeping a sixth guy in to help protect the quarterback, and they're just so useless.

Re: Offensive Line
 

As much blame as the tackles deserve, the entire point of the scheme is based around having three interior lineman to pick up blitzes, and somehow there's no pocket to step up into away from the rush.

Bugel should have corrected the simple pass pro flaws in the bye week. It's not like anyone would have been able to make these five guys play well, but come'on. There's something to be said for not embarassing yourself out there.

Re: Offensive Line
 

Maybe we should stat ARE at qb to deal with the pathetic offensive line? At least with ARE at qb he could be somewhat effective and use his speed avoiding the constant jailbreaks since as a WR he doesn't do much.

Re: Offensive Line
 

[quote=Bill B;622692]Maybe we should stat ARE at qb to deal with the pathetic offensive line? At least with ARE at qb he could be somewhat effective and use his speed avoiding the constant jailbreaks since as a WR he doesn't do much.[/quote]

And it would make use of his sideline to sideline speed ;)

Re: Offensive Line
 

[quote=Mattyk72;622644]It's a jailbreak nearly every time JC drops back. I honestly feel bad for the guy.[/quote]

When he lead the team to those two scoring drives beat up & battered he showed leadership qualities, he showed heart, and most importantly he showed me if he had more help upfront we could possibly score 20+ and be a threat. Looking at the replays this morning seeing Josh Freeman, Chad Henne & others having time to throw makes me sick.

Re: Offensive Line
 

[quote=Redskin Warrior;622700]When he lead the team to those two scoring drives beat up & battered he showed leadership qualities, he showed heart, and most importantly he showed me if he had more help upfront we could possibly score 20+ and be a threat. Looking at the replays this morning seeing Josh Freeman, Chad Henne & others having time to throw makes me sick.[/quote]

And they had a running game, which hasn't happened all season (it seems). The defense also couldn't come with a key stop (Turner's 58-yd TD) and changed the dynamic of the next offensive possession. Oh well.

Re: Offensive Line
 

[quote=Ruhskins;622722]And they had a running game, which hasn't happened all season (it seems). The defense also couldn't come with a key stop (Turner's 58-yd TD) and changed the dynamic of the next offensive possession. Oh well.[/quote]

Yeah the defense killed the momentum of a possible comeback the nail in the coffin

Re: Offensive Line
 

[quote=GMScud;622005]Read this: [url=http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/skins-first-set-of-personnel-m.html]Redskins Insider - Initial Personnel Ratings Completed[/url]
:doh:[/quote]

Nothing we didn't already know but still hard to read this:

"Several people told us that the offensive line was the greatest area of concern during the first series of meetings. Offensive line Coach Joe Bugel, criticized privately by some in the organization for being too loyal to veterans in the past, was brutally honest during the line review, sources said, particularly about how the line fell apart in the second half of the season.

There was a consensus among those in attendance that the team needs to upgrade at both guard spots and right tackle, though most sources doubted there will any kind of substantial free-agent budget to do that, and figure most of the present cast will be back.

Cerrato was looking for reasons for the team's 2-6 finish, which some coaches at first thought was a joke given personnel issues and the continuing age and injury problems of the line. Rarely could the entire line practice together save for some lighter Friday sessions and the players' technique and chemistry suffered. Veteran football coaches know the importance of having a line on the practice field as a unit. With most of this bunch coming off surgery again, that issue is unlikely to go away if they keep the group together.

Third-round pick Chad Rinehart is not seen as a capable player at this point, according to numerous sources involved in the meeting, and is not projected as being anywhere close to able to replace Pete Kendall or Randy Thomas at guard. Many coaches, including Bugel, worry about his confidence and ability, sources said. He is not being counted on to produce much in 2009, and if he did it would be a surprising development. Similarly, Stephon Heyer is not viewed as a starter; he's okay for depth purposes but with Jon Jansen no longer deemed a starter, either, they need to do something at right tackle (I still expect them to draft a tackle with their first pick).

Kendall could not practice on Wednesdays all season because of his arthritic knees and, in addition, is in his mid-30s. Given the team's cap predicament, its needs and the internal expectation that they will not be big spenders, sources said they expect the team to try to re-sign Kendall on the cheap. Thomas's health and decreasing athleticism are a big issue as well, but, like Jansen, his contract makes it more expensive to cut him than to keep him, so he will be back. Look for the team to find a "value" guard in free agency to replace Jason Fabini and push for a starting job. Beyond that, I'm not sure they do a whole lot here. "

Re: Offensive Line
 

[quote=Mattyk72;622644]It's a jailbreak nearly every time JC drops back. I honestly feel bad for the guy.[/quote]

As do I, he's seriously going to get a major injury behind this joke of a line. He's doing great considering what he has to work with. Sacked 11 times in the past 2 weeks.

[quote=Redskin Warrior;622700]When he lead the team to those two scoring drives beat up & battered he showed leadership qualities, he showed heart, and most importantly he showed me if he had more help upfront we could possibly score 20+ and be a threat. Looking at the replays this morning seeing Josh Freeman, Chad Henne & others having time to throw makes me sick.[/quote]


Well said.

Re: Offensive Line
 

I was just curious how bad Heyers backup must be considering Heyer is horrible. It's almost laughable.

I felt bad for JC and the team. He got beat up and everyone knew it but couldn't do anything about it. It's not the players, they're doing the best they can. They just don't have the talent.

Re: Offensive Line
 

[quote=skinsfan69;622645]can someone explain why rinehart isn't on the field??? wtf???????????????????????????[/quote]

Let me give you three words on this topic:

[INDENT][B]He - - - Can't - - - Play!!![/B][/INDENT]

Re: Offensive Line
 

[quote=sportscurmudgeon;622958]Let me give you three words on this topic:
[INDENT][B]He - - - Can't - - - Play!!![/B]
[/INDENT][/quote]

I think SkinsFan69 meant to ask, why did we draft a guy in the 3rd round that can't play.

If CR can't start on our offensive line then he should be banished from the NFL forever.

Re: Offensive Line
 

[quote=sportscurmudgeon;622958]Let me give you three words on this topic:
[INDENT][B]He - - - Can't - - - Play!!![/B]
[/INDENT][/quote]

Mike Williams is simply atrocious and so is Montgomery. If Rinehart can't get in now with the way the line is playing then they REALLY REALLY blew it on this guy. Someone has got to take the fall for putting these clowns in NFL uniforms.

Re: Offensive Line
 

[quote=redsk1;622952]I was just curious how bad Heyers backup must be considering Heyer is horrible. It's almost laughable.

I felt bad for JC and the team. He got beat up and everyone knew it but couldn't do anything about it. It's not the players, they're doing the best they can. They just don't have the talent.[/quote]



Back during OTAs, Vinny did an interview where he said that Stephon Heyer was "unbeatable" as long as he remembered to stay low. We have now seen Stephon Heyer play full time for half a season and - unfortunately - he is eminantly "beatable" whether or not he stays low or stays high or keeps his head up his butt...


If Vinny watched Heyer play/practice and TRULY believed what he said, then you can see why the Skins never draft offensive linemen - - Vinny thinks Heyer is a starter and by that yardstick there are a thousand guys out there in "unsigned free agent territory" who are just as good.

Re: Offensive Line
 

[quote=Buster;622891]As do I, he's seriously going to get a major injury behind this joke of a line. He's doing great considering what he has to work with. Sacked 11 times in the past 2 weeks.




Well said.[/quote]

He's still looking at the line too much instead of looking downfield, not to say I can blame him. But kudos to JC for manning up and coming back in there to get abused some more. JC is showing a ton of heart and I respect him for that.

Re: Offensive Line
 

agreed 100%

Re: Offensive Line
 

[quote=redsk1;622952]I was just curious how bad Heyers backup must be considering Heyer is horrible. It's almost laughable. [/quote]

I'm quite sure Heyer is the worst O-lineman I've seen in 30 years. Did anyone else notice he goes offside on EVERY play?? It's his only chance of stopping the opponent. Luckily the refs feel bad and they only call him for offsides 1 out of 5 times...

Re: Offensive Line
 

[quote=CrazyCanuck;623034]I'm quite sure Heyer is the worst O-lineman I've seen in 30 years. Did anyone else notice he goes offside on EVERY play?? It's his only chance of stopping the opponent. Luckily the refs feel bad and they only call him for offsides 1 out of 5 times...[/quote]

According to Mosley Heyer is going back to RT and Levi Jones will be at LT.

[url=http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4638069]Cinton Portis doubtful; Chris Horton, Mike Williams out for Washington Redskins - ESPN[/url]

Re: Offensive Line
 

[quote=Ruhskins;623036]According to Mosley Heyer is going back to RT and Levi Jones will be at LT.

[URL="http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4638069"]Cinton Portis doubtful; Chris Horton, Mike Williams out for Washington Redskins - ESPN[/URL][/quote]
I am pretty excited to see if that how Levi will play at left tackle. If he does well and Samuels can play back up next year(God Willing), we can pick a QB in the first and possibly a RT in the second. Then take a left tackle in 2011.

Re: Offensive Line
 

[quote=T.O.Killa;623042]I am pretty excited to see if that how Levi will play at left tackle. If he does well and Samuels can play back up next year(God Willing), we can pick a QB in the first and possibly a RT in the second. Then take a left tackle in 2011.[/quote]

Vinny has this posted on his wall!!!

Re: Offensive Line
 

[quote=sportscurmudgeon;622967[B]]Back during OTAs, Vinny did an interview where he said that Stephon Heyer was "unbeatable" as long as he remembered to stay low. [/B]We have now seen Stephon Heyer play full time for half a season and - unfortunately - he is eminantly "beatable" whether or not he stays low or stays high or keeps his head up his butt...


If Vinny watched Heyer play/practice and TRULY believed what he said, then you can see why the Skins never draft offensive linemen - - Vinny thinks Heyer is a starter and by that yardstick there are a thousand guys out there in "unsigned free agent territory" who are just as good.[/quote]

Hey Vinny. Do they have pads on during OTA's? No.

Re: Offensive Line
 

I keep thinking "So these are the guys who weren't good enough to play when our our line was just plain bad huh?" How in the world could anyone with an iota of football sense have stood for this? Hell if I was Zorn I might have walked out prior to the season. Assuming I had any better notion of what good line play was. We can lay this at VC's feet but seriously we have what a dozen offensive coaches and no one went on a Pacino like rant about this line before the season? They all just fell into line about the "potential"? Baffling. truly baffling. How could Zorn get out there and have a straight face knowing what kind of talent we had on the line? Talk about mob mentality. The error of group think strikes again I guess.

Re: Offensive Line
 

You know, I am having a hard time saying this, but i hope that Bugel is not our Oline coach next year. We have realy never been good under his controll since he came back. That may be because they never gave him good players, but I would like to see achange there.

Re: Offensive Line
 

[quote=T.O.Killa;623147]You know, I am having a hard time saying this, but i hope that Bugel is not our Oline coach next year. We have realy never been good under his controll since he came back. That may be because they never gave him good players, but I would like to see achange there.[/quote]

Huh? During the Gibbs 2.0 years we were frequently ranked in the top 5 when it came to O-Line units. We were also always ranked high in rushing and sacks allowed (in a division with 3 elite pressure units during Gibbs 2.0). Bugels problem has been a GM that refuses to put any effort into building an O-Line.

Re: Offensive Line
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;623152]Huh? During the Gibbs 2.0 years we were frequently ranked in the top 5 when it came to O-Line units. We were also always ranked high in rushing and sacks allowed (in a division with 3 elite pressure units during Gibbs 2.0). Bugels problem has been a GM that refuses to put any effort into building an O-Line.[/quote]
Our Oline has sucked since 2007. It was just ok before that. Yeah, I gues its the fact that they never get him any good players, but he has not developed anyone.

Re: Offensive Line
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;623152]Huh? During the Gibbs 2.0 years we were frequently ranked in the top 5 when it came to O-Line units. We were also always ranked high in rushing and sacks allowed (in a division with 3 elite pressure units during Gibbs 2.0). Bugels problem has been a GM that refuses to put any effort into building an O-Line.[/quote]

Really? I thought the o-line had problems late into Gibbs 2.0....I mean isn't that where Jensen was breaking down and we had the likes of Kendall and Fabini?

Re: Offensive Line
 

I mean, if he was is great, why cant he coach those sorry F**** up. Where is the miracle worker.

Re: Offensive Line
 

He is the one that hand picked Rhinehart

Re: Offensive Line
 

[quote=T.O.Killa;623147]You know, I am having a hard time saying this, but i hope that Bugel is not our Oline coach next year. We have realy never been good under his controll since he came back. That may be because they never gave him good players, but I would like to see achange there.[/quote]

I'm with you. I've been a fan of Buges for decades but it is time for a change.

Re: Offensive Line
 

[quote=FRPLG;623060]I keep thinking "So these are the guys who weren't good enough to play when our our line was just plain bad huh?" How in the world could anyone with an iota of football sense have stood for this? Hell if I was Zorn I might have walked out prior to the season. Assuming I had any better notion of what good line play was. We can lay this at VC's feet but seriously we have what a dozen offensive coaches and no one went on a Pacino like rant about this line before the season? They all just fell into line about the "potential"? Baffling. truly baffling. How could Zorn get out there and have a straight face knowing what kind of talent we had on the line? Talk about mob mentality. The error of group think strikes again I guess.[/quote]

The sad thing is that even with all this clamering, the FO still hasn't said addressing the o-line is a priority this offseason

Re: Offensive Line
 

[quote=T.O.Killa;623155]Our Oline has sucked since 2007. It was just ok before that. Yeah, I gues its the fact that they never get him any good players, but he has not developed anyone.[/quote]

Bugel helped develop Dockery and his work with Heyer is virtually the only reason that guy is in the league today. On a seperate note the only time a Gibbs 2.0 O-Line struggled was 2004. The reason people were pushing for O-Line in the 08 offseason was because they were getting old and Jansens 2nd injury was a wakeup call, despite Heyers strong play at the tail end of that season (minus the Seatle game). To those who would point to 06 as a year the O-Line struggled I'd suggest looking at sacks allowed and Betts rushing totals.

Re: Offensive Line
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;623163]Bugel helped develop Dockery and his work with Heyer is virtually the only reason that guy is in the league today. On a seperate note the only time a Gibbs 2.0 O-Line struggled was 2004. The reason people were pushing for O-Line in the 08 offseason was because they were getting old and Jansens 2nd injury was a wakeup call, despite Heyers strong play at the tail end of that season (minus the Seatle game). To those who would point to 06 as a year the O-Line struggled I'd suggest looking at sacks allowed and Betts rushing totals.[/quote]Um, do you remember Todd Wade?

Re: Offensive Line
 

[quote=GTripp0012;623164]Um, do you remember Todd Wade?[/quote]

Check mate. LOL.

Re: Offensive Line
 

[quote=BaltimoreSkins;623161]The sad thing is that even with all this clamering, the FO still hasn't said addressing the o-line is a priority this offseason[/quote]

Considering we still have 8 games to go, I wouldn't expect the front office to be announcing plans for next offseason already.

Re: Offensive Line
 

[quote=GTripp0012;623164]Um, do you remember Todd Wade?[/quote]

Even then they ran the ball well and protected the QB. The offense wasn't exactly elite that season but the defense was just plain horrible. 5 straight 100 yard games to close out the season and a 1,00 yard season for Betts.

Re: Offensive Line
 

And you know what. Screw Lavar Arrington. I am sick of listening to his crap.

Re: Offensive Line
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;623175]Even then they ran the ball well and protected the QB. The offense wasn't exactly elite that season but the defense was just plain horrible.[/quote]I think the line was very good in 2005 and 2006. It actually wasn't bad in 2008 either, but the attrition of that group over a two month period was incredible.

My only point is the warning signs in 2007 were pretty blatant. The only solution we got was Rinehart.

Re: Offensive Line
 

[quote=GTripp0012;623179]I think the line was very good in 2005 and 2006. It actually wasn't bad in 2008 either, but the attrition of that group over a two month period was incredible.

My only point is the warning signs in 2007 were pretty blatant. The only solution we got was Rinehart.[/quote]

I think the only time the O-Line struggled at the end of 07 when the Seatle D-Line manhandled us. Other then that I give them credit for the win streak at the end of the season.

08 was funny because during the first half we had one of the best lines in the league and one of the worst by the end of it. But yeah that downfall still shocks me.

Re: Offensive Line
 

Isn't this all **BUGEL'S** fault??

I mean, do you really think Snyder or Cerrato said, "Let's not focus on the O-line"?? Isn't it Bugel instead who probably kept telling them, "You don't need to draft an O-line, I can make any scrub a Pro-Bowl offensive lineman."

I just see Snyder as a guy with money who asks the coaches what they think, and I'm sure they talked about the O-line as a group after last season.

Re: Offensive Line
 

I know I've asked and perhaps one of you answered it but are the Skins not allowed to raid other teams practice squads?

You know Andrew Crummey OL is on the Texans PS. Could we not bring him on board? or is there some expensive contract issue that keeps us from picking him up? Here's a list of some of the other teams PS OL...

Eric Young RT Rams
Trevor Canfield G Cards
Jermey Parnell T Saints
Chris Clark T Vikings
Johan Asiata G Bears
James Marten T Bears
Jaimie Thomas G Colts
Andrew Crummey OL Texans
Adam Stenavich T Texans

[B]Edit: [/B]Andrew Crummey, Johan Asiata, and Trevor Canfield interest me.