Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

[quote=firstdown;675283]The problem is that people move here but will not learn the language. Yes. people are unwilling or too lazy to learn the language. I have customers that only one person in the family has learned to speak english. My mother-in-law moved from Germany and she learned to speak english because that is our language and she did not expect us to learn Germany.[/quote]

it takes people time.. these people are typically supporting families, working at least one job, etc.. they don't always have time for English lessons

I seriously doubt that my ancestors (except for maybe the very affluent.. wish I had been direct lineage of them haha) knew English, aside from the British ones. It's easy for us to say learn it, but think of our level of English and how long that took to master? I'd rather someone depend someone else on English if it means that they're making an honest living. Sure there are those who do neither, but there are plenty of people that speak English that don't as well.

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

When I think home schooling, all I can think are those poor brainwashed Jesus Camp kids.

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

To tell the truth some of the best conversations I've had were with people that I couldn't understand. From the grandfather of a Macedonian girl that I worked with where we just kind of got what was going on, an Argentinean girl that rented a room for a bit where we'd sit there with a spanish-english translator book and Babelfish on the computer, etc. God that girl was amazing

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

[quote=Buster;675275]There actually are plenty of ESL programs right now, we all pay for them with taxes.

However, when I go to an ATM or post office, I don't think spending exorbitant money on documents and systems in 8 languages is appropriate or necessary.

Like it or not, English is the language of business and therefore success in this nation. If coming here, they need to know it and use it without the expectation of some that WE cater to THEM.[/quote]


Pssst, these companies aren't required to offer Spanish language ATMs...they do it because they want to do business with Hispanics. You're free to choose your bank, go choose one that doesn't have bilingual ATMs.

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

[quote=Daseal;675297]When I think home schooling, all I can think are those poor brainwashed Jesus Camp kids.[/quote]

hilariously tragic documentary

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

[quote=saden1;675287]You have no idea what it takes to learn English, no idea.[/quote]

ease up, he's still learning how to spell in English

lol ;)

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

[quote=Buster;675275]There actually are plenty of ESL programs right now, we all pay for them with taxes.
.[/quote]

If we didn't make churches tax exempt ESL wouldn't be a problem ;)

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

[quote=saden1;675304]Pssst, these companies aren't required to offer Spanish language ATMs...they do it because they want to do business with Hispanics. You're free to choose your bank, go choose one that doesn't have bilingual ATMs.[/quote]

It frightens me how little people try to explain things before they complain about them. Reminds me of the census letter before the form thread.

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

[quote=tryfuhl;675296]it takes people time.. these people are typically supporting families, working at least one job, etc.. they don't always have time for English lessons

I seriously doubt that my ancestors (except for maybe the very affluent.. wish I had been direct lineage of them haha) knew English, aside from the British ones. It's easy for us to say learn it, but think of our level of English and how long that took to master? I'd rather someone depend someone else on English if it means that they're making an honest living. Sure there are those who do neither, but there are plenty of people that speak English that don't as well.[/quote]

Thats just an excuse. I'm not saying become an english master just learn the language so you can communicate. I had a secretary from Italy working at my office and I would always find files out of place. One day a dawned on me that she did not know the alphabet. She knew all the letters but never learned them like us and that little ABC song.

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

[quote=Mattyk;675306]ease up, he's still learning how to spell in English

lol ;)[/quote]


I'm serious....learning English is an arduous 9 year process and people talk about it as if it takes minutes. Not only that but when you speak to them in broken English and you're trying they tell you learn English.

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

[quote=saden1;675318]I'm serious....learning English is an arduous 9 year process and people talk about it as if it takes minutes. Not only that but when you speak to them in broken English and you're trying they tell you learn English.[/quote]

Oh I know, they say it's one of the most difficult to learn and it's definitely one of the most complex languages.

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

[quote=saden1;675318]I'm serious....learning English is an arduous 9 year process and people talk about it as if it takes minutes. Not only that but when you speak to them in broken English and you're trying they tell you learn English.[/quote]
Yea, I bet that's what you ment. The scary thing is my mom is an English master and alomost has her Dr's. I don't think she knows how bad my english really is.

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

[quote=firstdown;675315]Thats just an excuse. I'm not saying become an english master just learn the language so you can communicate. I had a secretary from Italy working at my office and I would always find files out of place. One day a dawned on me that she did not know the alphabet. She knew all the letters but never learned them like us and that little ABC song.[/quote]

Just because a jackass subset of our population thinks that people should have to speak the language does not make it the law. You're free to speak whatever you want in the United States. Maybe if you don't like that, you should leave, FD.

The logic can be turned in either direction.

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

[quote=Buster;675260]This was to protect the churches FROM the Government more than to keep religion out of Government. Look at the times it was written and the Church of England being controlled by the Government and forced upon the citizenry.

The Founders were primarily Christians and there are citations of God all throughout written laws, on Government buildings and on currency. They never had any intention to separate Church from State, only to keep the "State" our of churches and let people worship as they choose to or not at all. They didn't say that beliefs had to be censored or hidden at all. They had their very public beliefs BUT the also did not want to prevent others from having and displaying theirs even if different.

The whole concept has been twisted in attempts to silence religious practices completely. [B]The Founders intended on Freedom OF Religion, not Freedom FROM Religion as many push today[/B].[/quote]

Six to one half dozen. If you legislate based on a set of religious beliefs, then I'm stuck abiding to a set of laws consistent with someone else's beliefs, not my own.

Your line of thinking is devoid of logic.

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

[quote=Schneed10;675350]Six to one half dozen. If you legislate based on a set of religious beliefs, then I'm stuck abiding to a set of laws consistent with someone else's beliefs, not my own.

Your line of thinking is devoid of logic.[/quote]

Religion.. void of logic?! NO WAY!

It's only the Christians that argue that.. I say let Hindu and Muslims be deeply ingrained, then we'll see if they argue that it's not about the church being part of the state

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

I havent read through all the posts, but if anyone ever had the chance to watch Do You Know What Your Children Are Reading by Tucker Carlson watch it. Its been a while but i believe there are 2 tpyes of formats that states use to make decision on text books. One is worse then the other, but they are both bad - i wish i could further elaborate. Basically big text book companies cater to special interest groups. Its pretty ridiculous how its all done.

Also for the record i usually disagree with Tucker Carlson and dont really like his journalism style, but this was a great program he did. Its slightly bias to being conservative minded, but plays into both liberal and conservative fears. Either way it will make you [COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]disgusted [/FONT][/COLOR]how much money we spend having whats put into textbooks and even worse what ends up getting put into because of special interest groups (both left and right).


[URL="http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2009/09/03/tucker-carlson-textbooks/"]FOXNews.com - The Trouble With Textbooks[/URL]

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

I wonder if they'll include the fact that Woodrow Wilson sent US troops into Russia to help the Whites defeat the Reds?

Perhaps they'll include the fact that when Columbus Discovered America millions of people were already here?

What form of government do the new school books say the US has: A Democracy, Oligarchy, or perhaps a multi-cultural Socialist utopia?

Are the new books going to be in English or Spanglish? Maybe they can write the new books in Mayan, so everyone will know when the world is going to end?

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

1. IMHO - Some of the Board's actions appear to be one section's "spin" on history and some appear to be just plain fabrication of history (the Jefferson issue). As to the "spin", time will simply judge it as it will and soon enough it will be spun differently. As to the fabrication, it is inexcusable - both public focus upon and public ridicule of such ignorance is appropriate and necessary.

2. The "separation of church and State" is an established constitutional tenant. Period. Most, if not all, of the founders believed in the existance of a creator. Many of the founders were Christian and, certainly, the early population of the country was based in Christianity. Again, IMHO, the protections envisioned by the founders were, in many ways, seen as necessary to protect one sect of Christianity from another. At the same time, the brilliance of the principles enunciated in accomplishing this is demonstrated by their universal appeal to all religious interactions with the governing structures.

I agree with Schneed, freedom "from" v. freedom "of" is essentially the same thing. Thus, the langauge prevents the "establishment" of a government religion ([I]i.e.[/I] freedom "from") at the same time protects the "free exercise" of a person's religion( [I]i.e.[/I] freedom "of").

3. I would respectfully request that those here who disagree with the premise of a creator or the concept of organized religion not assume all who disagree with their philosophical beliefs are small minded and ignorant.

As an aside, at the fall of the western Roman Empire, it it was Christianity that preserved much of the ancient knowledge that otherwise would have been lost with the Fall of Rome. [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_the_Irish_Saved_Civilization]How the Irish Saved Civilization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url].

Perhaps before you go blasting us folks who believe in "fairy tales" you might read some history yourselves. Organized religion's faults are many and well documented, however, it seems to me that its successes and beneficial effects are often ignored by those who deem themselves enlighted. (Sorry, I get tired of the smugness of those who accuse others of being small minded and ignorant while at the same time exhibiting, IMO, the same type, if not same degree, of small minded ignorance).

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

As an aside, at the fall of the western Roman Empire, it it was Christianity that preserved much of the ancient knowledge that otherwise would have been lost with the Fall of Rome. [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_the_Irish_Saved_Civilization]How the Irish Saved Civilization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url].

That my friend is a fabrication.

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

[quote=Schneed10;675348]Just because a jackass subset of our population thinks that people should have to speak the language does not make it the law. You're free to speak whatever you want in the United States. Maybe if you don't like that, you should leave, FD.

The logic can be turned in either direction.[/quote]

No its Jack Asses that think we should change for every Tom dick and harry that comes here.Hell while we are at it why don't we start driving on the left side of the road and put stearing wheels on the left side of the cars because go forbid if we ask them to learn how to drive our way. I should leave its the fing liberal thinking and liberals that we need to get the F out of this counrty. You guys can start your own little world where no one works and everyone speaks a different language.

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

You don't have to speak English if you don't want to. The Laws are in English. The Civil Codes are as well. Almost all financial transactions are in English. You don't have to learn English, but you will be a second class citizen, if that.

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

[quote=Trample the Elderly;675456]You don't have to speak English if you don't want to. The Laws are in English. The Civil Codes are as well. Almost all financial transactions are in English. You don't have to learn English, but you will be a second class citizen, if that.[/quote]

That my friend is wishful thinking.

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

[quote=firstdown;675449]No its Jack Asses that think we should change for every Tom dick and harry that comes here.Hell while we are at it why don't we start driving on the left side of the road and put stearing wheels on the left side of the cars because go forbid if we ask them to learn how to drive our way. I should leave its the fing liberal thinking and liberals that we need to get the F out of this counrty. You guys can start your own little world where no one works and everyone speaks a different language.[/quote]

That my friend is called paranoia.

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;675436]
As an aside, at the fall of the western Roman Empire, it it was Christianity that preserved much of the ancient knowledge that otherwise would have been lost with the Fall of Rome. [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_the_Irish_Saved_Civilization]How the Irish Saved Civilization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url].
[/quote]

I'd probably say not to champion Christians and Catholics of those who saved knowledge as they did their fair share of destroying it as well.

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

[quote=firstdown;675315]Thats just an excuse. [B]I'm not saying become an english master just learn the language so you can communicate.[/B] I had a secretary from Italy working at my office and I would always find files out of place. One day a dawned on me that she did not know the alphabet. She knew all the letters but never learned them like us and that little ABC song.[/quote]

I deal with people all the time that only speak broken English. That's not enough for some of my pinhead co-workers though.

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

[quote=joethiesmanfan;675462]That my friend is called paranoia.[/quote]

Seriously.

Fox News really works I guess.

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

[quote=firstdown;675449]No its Jack Asses that think we should change for every Tom dick and harry that comes here.Hell while we are at it why don't we start driving on the left side of the road and put stearing wheels on the left side of the cars because go forbid if we ask them to learn how to drive our way. I should leave its the fing liberal thinking and liberals that we need to get the F out of this counrty. You guys can start your own little world where no one works and everyone speaks a different language.[/quote]

How simple minded can you be man?

What do you do for business I must ask?

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

[quote=Mattyk;675469]Seriously.

Fox News really works I guess.[/quote]

liberals need to leave because free thinking has no fucking place in America

ALL HAIL THE QUEEN

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

[quote=joethiesmanfan;675447]As an aside, at the fall of the western Roman Empire, it it was Christianity that preserved much of the ancient knowledge that otherwise would have been lost with the Fall of Rome. [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_the_Irish_Saved_Civilization]How the Irish Saved Civilization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url].

That my friend is a fabrication.[/quote]

What, specifically, are you asserting is a fabrication?

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

[quote=firstdown;675449]No its Jack Asses that think we should change for every Tom dick and harry that comes here.Hell while we are at it why don't we start driving on the left side of the road and put stearing wheels on the left side of the cars because go forbid if we ask them to learn how to drive our way. I should leave its the fing liberal thinking and liberals that we need to get the F out of this counrty. You guys can start your own little world where no one works and everyone speaks a different language.[/quote]

I could hardly be considered liberal.

I'm just stating facts. There's no law saying anyone has to speak anything. There's also no law that you have to listen to another language. For example, if you own a business and someone comes in asking for something in Spanish, you're well within your rights to kick their ass out.

They don't have to speak English, and you don't have to listen to other languages if you don't want.

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

[quote=joethiesmanfan;675459]That my friend is wishful thinking.[/quote]

If you need a translator in court the cards are already stacked against you. It's like going in without a lawyer. I can't speak legalise but I do understand a little Latin, Common-law, and I know a little code. Someone who doesn't speak English will not be able to tell if his lawyer or translator is full of it. He has to go on faith. If that isn't a second class citizen, I don't know what is.

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

[quote=tryfuhl;675472]liberals need to leave because free thinking has no fucking place in America

ALL HAIL THE QUEEN[/quote]

That my friend is called funny as a MOFO!

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

[quote=tryfuhl;675465]I'd probably say not to champion Christians and Catholics of those who saved knowledge as they did their fair share of destroying it as well.[/quote]

You sit judging and accusing that the fundamentalist religious right as ignoring history - yet then commit the same exact act.

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boethius]Boethius - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url]

Also:
"One of the great contributions of the monasteries was the preservation of
the learning of the classical world and that of the church. Learning did not
entirely die out in western Europe, of course. Seeing that the ability to read
Greek was quickly disappearing, the sixth-century Roman scholar Boethius, an administrator under the Ostrogothic king Theodoric, determined to preserve Greek learning by translating all of Plato and Aristotle into Latin. Only Aristotle's treatises on logic were translated, and these remained the sole works of that philosopher available in the West until the twelfth century.

Unjustly accused of treachery by Theodoric, Boethius was thrown into prison, where he wrote The Consolation of Philosophy while awaiting execution. This little work later became a medieval textbook on philosophy.

Cassiodorus, a contemporary of Boethius who had also served Theodoric,
devoted most of his life to the collection and preservation of classical
knowledge. By encouraging the monks to copy valuable manuscripts, he was instrumental in making the monasteries centers of learning. Following his example, many monasteries established scriptoria, departments concerned exclusively with copying manuscripts"
[url=http://history-world.org/churchmiddleages.htm]Christianity, The Church In The Early Middle Ages[/url]

Yes. organized religion in general has its flaws, some eggregious, as it is a human creation, but to ignore the benefits it has passed on to us through our history because of these flaws is just mind boggling .

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;675494]You sit judging and accusing that the fundamentalist religious right as ignoring history - yet then commit the same exact act.

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boethius]Boethius - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url]

Yes. organized religion in general has its flaws, some eggregious, as it is a human creation, but to ignore the benefits it has passed on to us through our history because of these flaws is just mind boggling .[/quote]

No sir, I did not commit the same act at all. I'm not sure why you would accuse me of that.

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

[quote=Trample the Elderly;675483]If you need a translator in court the cards are already stacked against you. It's like going in without a lawyer. I can't speak legalise but I do understand a little Latin, Common-law, and I know a little code. Someone who doesn't speak English will not be able to tell if his lawyer or translator is full of it. He has to go on faith. If that isn't a second class citizen, I don't know what is.[/quote]

Money talks point blank. Going to courst and not understanding fullty what's going on? That my friend is called the US justice system.

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;675473]What, specifically, are you asserting is a fabrication?[/quote]

Did the Roman Empire fall before or after 1066? That my friend is when Christianity was forced upon the British by descendants of Vikings living in modern day France off the WWII famous coast of Normandy.

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

[quote=tryfuhl;675498]No sir, I did not commit the same act at all. I'm not sure why you would accuse me of that.[/quote]

Initially reading your post, it appeared to me that you were denying the role that Christianity, particularly Roman Catholicism, played in preserving the knowledge of the ancient greeks and romans along with denying the role that monastaries played in preserving and teaching scholarship. If that is not what you were doing, fine. I withdraw the accusation.

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

[quote=joethiesmanfan;675499]Money talks point blank. Going to courst and not understanding fullty what's going on? That my friend is called the US justice system.[/quote]

Yes it does. Consider this: How many guys who speak broken English can run for and win a public office? No matter how well his campaign is funded, he'll be perceived as a foreigner.

Say I have a construction site full of illegals. They may know how to put up a house like nobody's business. Let the county inspector show up. Do you think those illegals can site code? No they can't. The English speaking foreman who picked them up at the Lowe's Parking lot does though.

If you don't see the logic in what I'm presenting to you. You might as well SQUAWK POLLY SQUAWK! ha ha ha :laughing-

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

[quote=tryfuhl;675465]I'd probably say not to champion Christians and Catholics of those who saved knowledge as they did their fair share of destroying it as well.[/quote]

Christians did save many works which may have been destroyed in the fall of Rome.

However, ancient Christians also burned the books of Aristotle and Plato, indirectly helping to launch the so-called "Dark Ages." The only reason we still have many of these ancient Greek philosophical classics is because they were saved and studied by medieval Muslims. Of course, Muslims have since burned other books, such as "The Satanic Verses."

I'm agreeing with you, tryfuhl.

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;675514]Initially reading your post, it appeared to me that you were denying the role that Christianity, particularly Roman Catholicism, played in preserving the knowledge of the ancient greeks and romans along with denying the role that monastaries played in preserving and teaching scholarship. If that is not what you were doing, fine. I withdraw the accusation.[/quote]

Spoken quite the lawyer. :)

It's a vicious cycle, I try not to tie anyone of any belief set into the masses, sometimes it's easy or convenient though.. at least once they've presented their case.