Re: Competition Committee proposals: end play when ball carrier's helmet comes off & sudden death overtime
 

[quote=Longtimefan;676112]Funny you mention that because just two days ago I was watching Redskin Nation with Larry Michael doing an interview with former Redskin [B]Ted Vactor[/B], and he spoke to the same issue.

Vactor said when Vince Lombardi was coach here he actually challenged a fan to take the field to demonstrate what he perceived to be his worth, it was in short order the fan soon realized that just some of the drills were more than a notion......which quickly prompted a change of heart.[/quote]

I hadn't heard that name in a long time. Thanks. It brings back ancient happy memories.

Re: Competition Committee proposals: end play when ball carrier's helmet comes off & sudden death overtime
 

I think I am in the minority but I like both rules....

Re: Competition Committee proposals: end play when ball carrier's helmet comes off & sudden death overtime
 

Getting hit in the head is part of the game for boxing, but not football. Sure it happens but it's incidental. More should be done to prevent it from happening.

Re: Competition Committee proposals: end play when ball carrier's helmet comes off & sudden death overtime
 

WSJ had a [URL="http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704402404574527881984299454.html"]great piece[/URL] on head injuries last year.


[quote]The problem is that there's nothing any helmet could do to stop the brain from taking lots of small hits. To become certified for sale, a football helmet has to earn a "severity index" score of 1200, according to testing done by the National Operating Committee on Standards for Athletic Equipment, or Nocsae. Dr. Robert Cantu, a Nocsae board member and chief of neurosurgery at Emerson Hospital in Concord, Mass., says that to prevent concussions, helmets would have to have a severity index of 300—about four times better than the standard. "The only way to make that happen, Dr. Cantu says, "is to make the helmet much bigger and the padding much bigger."

The problem with that approach, he says—other than making players look like Marvin the Martian—is that heavier helmets would be more likely to cause neck injuries.

One of the strongest arguments for banning helmets comes from the Australian Football League. While it's a similarly rough game, the AFL never added any of the body armor Americans wear. When comparing AFL research studies and official NFL injury reports, AFL players appear to get hurt more often on the whole with things like shoulder injuries and tweaked knees. But when it comes to head injuries, the helmeted NFL players are about 25% more likely to sustain one. [/quote]

Re: Competition Committee proposals: end play when ball carrier's helmet comes off & sudden death overtime
 

[quote=Lotus;676162]I hadn't heard that name in a long time. Thanks. It brings back ancient happy memories.[/quote]

This is off - topic but......Here's another interesting tid-bit from Vactors conversation with Michael.

Those who remember Ted Vactor know him as being one of our great special team players of the past. He spoke about how he would like to see the now Redskins do some of the things on special teams they did back in the day when George Allen was coach.

Allen believed the team would win at least two games every season by blocking kicks, a specialty he excelled in. He, along with Bill Malinchak were the best on the team at it, and Allen would always give them the green light. It gave the opposition one more thing to have to prepare for, plus it helped the return game of Mike Nelms and Herb Mul-Key because teams were so concerned about the block their protections had to be max which curtailed their down field release.

He considers the art of kick-blocking lost on the team today, but something we could see practiced again now that Bruce Allen is aboard and it was a staple of his Father's coaching.

Re: Competition Committee proposals: end play when ball carrier's helmet comes off & sudden death overtime
 

[quote=saden1;676226]WSJ had a [URL="http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704402404574527881984299454.html"]great piece[/URL] on head injuries last year.[/quote]

I remember reading that

it'd be hard to get them to adjust playing without helmets or pads and yeah it'd increase other injuries.. not sure it's a great idea

Re: Competition Committee proposals: end play when ball carrier's helmet comes off & sudden death overtime
 

just heard on ESPN that the overtime change would only be for the postseason

ugh

Re: Competition Committee proposals: end play when ball carrier's helmet comes off & sudden death overtime
 

[quote=Trample the Elderly;676134]I'm against people getting hit in the head, unless they're in the NFL.

I'm against people dying in automobile accidents unless it's in NASCAR.

I'm against people giving their bodies over to drugs and alcohol, unless they're musicians.

C'mon? Are you going to tell me that Charlie Daniels is good without booze, or that Lennon was better off without smack?

There's always somebody trying to be a mommy.[/quote]

perfect comment it's like saying for now one cars in F1 and Nascar wouldn't no't go faster than the speed limit because we want to prevent our drqavers from crashing and suffer serious injuries... Or boxer will from now on would use helments because we don't want the mto suffer any long term head injury.... I mean C'mon injuries are part of sports that's why they get paid millions.

They Know the risk but they also know the rewards and they're willing to take them.... what I think it's funny is the more money this players get the more pussys they become... in the old days they play with broken bones and get paid crap now that the old players paved the way this new players don't want to play because they have a sore throath.

Re: Competition Committee proposals: end play when ball carrier's helmet comes off & sudden death overtime
 

[quote=saden1;676226]WSJ had a [URL="http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704402404574527881984299454.html"]great piece[/URL] on head injuries last year.[/quote]

One thing they could do, which I think would help a lot is to dispense with the notion of a reusable helmet.

Motorcycle helmets are built to withstand one hit. They are built to crush in order to absorb the impact and be replaced. Football helmets could be built in a similar way so that you play until you have a strong head strike, and then you replace the "guts" of the helmet...using the reusable outer shell.

This would work well since you could keep the material light and the shell would only have to last a game, not a season.

Re: Competition Committee proposals: end play when ball carrier's helmet comes off & sudden death overtime
 

[quote=Mc2guy;677322]One thing they could do, which I think would help a lot is to dispense with the notion of a reusable helmet.

Motorcycle helmets are built to withstand one hit. They are built to crush in order to absorb the impact and be replaced. Football helmets could be built in a similar way so that you play until you have a strong head strike, and then you replace the "guts" of the helmet...using the reusable outer shell.

This would work well since you could keep the material light and the shell would only have to last a game, not a season.[/quote]
the guts can hold up.. it's the shell that's the issue

actually it's not even so much that.. motorcycle helmets are one impact because of the force.. in football they typically don't get the same impact

it has more to do with the head just getting beaten around so much.. it's the guts that need more working, not replacing

Re: Competition Committee proposals: end play when ball carrier's helmet comes off & sudden death overtime
 

[quote=Mc2guy;677322]One thing they could do, which I think would help a lot is to dispense with the notion of a reusable helmet.

Motorcycle helmets are built to withstand one hit. They are built to crush in order to absorb the impact and be replaced. Football helmets could be built in a similar way so that you play until you have a strong head strike, and then you replace the "guts" of the helmet...using the reusable outer shell.

This would work well since you could keep the material light and the shell would only have to last a game, not a season.[/quote]

Do you have any idea how much of a pain in the arse it is just to get a helmet to fit properly, first with the chinstrap, then with the air in the helmet? Maybe it's feasible but I just remember when playing how it took some guys a week to find the right fit for their helmet, and this was just in high school, I can't imagine what the pro's go through getting one or two helmets to fit right (I presume they use a different helmet on gameday).

Personally the first thing they need to do is outlaw light weight helmets. I'm pretty sure those don't help much in terms of preventing concussions.

Re: Competition Committee proposals: end play when ball carrier's helmet comes off & sudden death overtime
 

[quote=D'BOYZ;677320]perfect comment it's like saying for now one cars in F1 and Nascar wouldn't no't go faster than the speed limit because we want to prevent our drqavers from crashing and suffer serious injuries... Or boxer will from now on would use helments because we don't want the mto suffer any long term head injury.... I mean C'mon injuries are part of sports that's why they get paid millions.

They Know the risk but they also know the rewards and they're willing to take them.... what I think it's funny is the more money this players get the more pussys they become... in the old days they play with broken bones and get paid crap now that the old players paved the way this new players don't want to play because they have a sore throath.[/quote]

I'm against PUI....Posting Under the Influence.

Re: Competition Committee proposals: end play when ball carrier's helmet comes off & sudden death overtime
 

[quote=D'BOYZ;677320]perfect comment it's like saying for now one cars in F1 and Nascar wouldn't no't go faster than the speed limit because we want to prevent our drqavers from crashing and suffer serious injuries... Or boxer will from now on would use helments because we don't want the mto suffer any long term head injury.... I mean C'mon injuries are part of sports that's why they get paid millions.

They Know the risk but they also know the rewards and they're willing to take them.... what I think it's funny is the more money this players get the more pussys they become... in the old days they play with broken bones and get paid crap now that the old players paved the way this new players don't want to play because they have a sore throath.[/quote]

Hey, [SIZE=7][B]sore throaths[/B][/SIZE] can be serious.

Re: Competition Committee proposals: end play when ball carrier's helmet comes off & sudden death overtime
 

[url=http://espn.go.com/blog/nfceast/post/_/id/12250/snyder-thinks-ot-proposal-will-pass]Snyder thinks OT proposal will pass - NFC East Blog - ESPN[/url]

Re: Competition Committee proposals: end play when ball carrier's helmet comes off & sudden death overtime
 

I don't quite get this mentality that stopping the play when the helmet comes off is sissy. Yeah, players look bad ass when they fight for more yards after their helmet is ripped off, but it's such a minor sacrifice to protect players.

Rules implemented to protect the players' heads are extremely important to protect the game. The more concussion news that takes place, the more of a crack down there will be on the game, and taking a preventative course of actions seems logical.

Look at all the brain injuries former NFL players are suffering. It's absolutely devasting...both physically and mentally. When it's all said and done, it's just a game...and no-one should significantly risk their lives to play it.

Think about if your brother or son made it to the NFL. It's a man's game, but it's also not suicide. Lets be smart people.

Re: Competition Committee proposals: end play when ball carrier's helmet comes off & sudden death overtime
 

New OT rule just passed for playoffs only at this point.

Just go ahead and do it for the entire season, this playoffs only rule is silly if you ask me.

Re: Competition Committee proposals: end play when ball carrier's helmet comes off & sudden death overtime
 

[quote=Mattyk;677662]New OT rule just passed for playoffs only at this point.

Just go ahead and do it for the entire season, this playoffs only rule is silly if you ask me.[/quote]

Agree 100%

If it can determine the outcome of a playoff game it should be able to do the same in games that could determine whether a team is playoff eligible or not.

Re: Competition Committee proposals: end play when ball carrier's helmet comes off & sudden death overtime
 

(Jay Glazer Tweet)

On Tuesday 23rd March 2010, @Jay_Glazer said:

Coaches r quite upset owners voted to change OT rules while they were playing in nfl coaches golf tourney. Was on schedule to be voted on tomorrow, not while the coaches were out

Re: Competition Committee proposals: end play when ball carrier's helmet comes off & sudden death overtime
 

[quote=Skinny Tee;677717](Jay Glazer Tweet)

On Tuesday 23rd March 2010, @Jay_Glazer said:

Coaches r quite upset owners voted to change OT rules while they were playing in nfl coaches golf tourney. Was on schedule to be voted on tomorrow, not while the coaches were out[/quote]

[url=http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/03/23/coaches-arent-happy-with-rule-change/]Coaches aren't happy with rule change | ProFootballTalk.com[/url]

[url=http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/03/23/reason-for-accelerated-overtime-vote-still-isnt-clear/]Reason for accelerated overtime vote still isn't clear | ProFootballTalk.com[/url]

Re: Competition Committee proposals: end play when ball carrier's helmet comes off & sudden death overtime
 

[quote=Mattyk;677662]New OT rule just passed for playoffs only at this point.

Just go ahead and do it for the entire season, this playoffs only rule is silly if you ask me.[/quote]

Just heard Chris Mortenson report they will be looking more closely at expanding it to the regular season as well at the owner's meeting in May. I think that's the only way it should be changed is all or nothing. Why would you not include this rule on the games that actually determines the teams in the playoffs?

Re: Competition Committee proposals: end play when ball carrier's helmet comes off & sudden death overtime
 

The OT rule is dumb. If it isn't broke don't fix it. The stoppage of play when the helmet flies off of the ball carrier is good common sense. That guy gets whacked in the head with a helmet and you are asking for serious trouble, like a probable death, so I can understand that. I heard they want to protect Wrs more now from getting big licks on them. Now that is going to wussify the game. The NFL bigwigs need to chill. IF the wussify their product too much folks will go to the NHL!!!!

Re: Competition Committee proposals: end play when ball carrier's helmet comes off & sudden death overtime
 

What's the NHL?

;)

Re: Competition Committee proposals: end play when ball carrier's helmet comes off & sudden death overtime
 

[quote=GusFrerotte;677795]The OT rule is dumb.[B] If it isn't broke don't fix it. [/B]The stoppage of play when the helmet flies off of the ball carrier is good common sense. That guy gets whacked in the head with a helmet and you are asking for serious trouble, like a probable death, so I can understand that. I heard they want to protect Wrs more now from getting big licks on them. Now that is going to wussify the game. The NFL bigwigs need to chill. IF the wussify their product too much folks will go to the NHL!!!![/quote]

While I understand that sentiment; can you quantify not being broke? Does it work as it is? yes. But so would playing another full quarter, or ending after 4 quarters regardless. I would say that, seeing as how after every overtime, the conversation about the "unfairness" of the coin toss comes up, it is broke. Is it statistically unfair, I don't know, people have flung lots of stats on both sides. This change, which I like, takes out the sour grapes quotient that has come after most every game where the first team wins, which is probably about half the time (statistically fair, but it just fails the eye test).

I am glad they approved it and hope they pass it for the regular season as well.

Re: Competition Committee proposals: end play when ball carrier's helmet comes off & sudden death overtime
 

The more I hear about the reasoning behind modifying OT, I have to admit I'm coming around to the idea that it needed to be done. The team that wins the coin flip wins over 60% of the time, and since they moved the kickoff back all you need is a decent return and a couple of plays to get into FG range, and kickers are more accurate than ever.

Just approve it for the regular season too and let's move on. I think it's a change for the good.

Re: Competition Committee proposals: end play when ball carrier's helmet comes off & sudden death overtime
 

I really like the OT rule, but I think they're doing it backwards. If we're trying something new, why not try it out for the REGULAR season where there will be less harm done if the rule turns out to not work as expected, where the stakes are lower? Then, if it proves to be an improvement, make the decision later in the season to extend it into the playoffs. If there is some unforeseen problem with the rule, its better to test it out when games don't matter as much. Also, to try it out in the regular season will allow it to actually happen to see how it works...it could be years before we get a handful of postseason OT games to see how it works. We may not even see an OT game with the new rule in the year it was implemented.

Re: Competition Committee proposals: end play when ball carrier's helmet comes off & sudden death overtime
 

The rationale is there's more at stake in the playoffs so they feel it's needed there more vs. in the regular season where less is on the line.

Re: Competition Committee proposals: end play when ball carrier's helmet comes off & sudden death overtime
 

I understand that, but shouldn't that be more of a reason to get an effective rule in place? There's not much a chance to test it without using it in the regular season.

Re: Competition Committee proposals: end play when ball carrier's helmet comes off & sudden death overtime
 

Shanahan is for the rule and not opposed to it being applied to the regular season as well

[url=http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/daniel-m-snyder/shanahan-kind-of-looking-forwa.html]Redskins Insider - Shanahan 'kind of looking forward to' NFL OT rule change[/url]

[quote]
...

But he said he likes the new overtime rule and said he talked about the issue at length with Daniel Snyder before the Redskins' owner casted his vote on Tuesday. Snyder was one of 28 owners who voted for the change.

"I don't think it would've passed with the coaches," Shanahan said. "Not many things do."

He pointed out that if coaches had their way, they might still be reviewing cut-ups on 16-millimeter film.

"One thing that you have as a commissioner - and I think you have to do it as a guy in charge - you know how people feel in certain situations about the game. And some times as a coach, you're the guy that they probably should talk to at the end of the conversation and not at the beginning," Shanahan said. "Because coaches, they get so tunneled into their game. They don't like change."

...[/quote]

Re: Competition Committee proposals: end play when ball carrier's helmet comes off & sudden death overtime
 

[quote=GusFrerotte;677795]The OT rule is dumb. [B]If it isn't broke don't fix it[/B]. The stoppage of play when the helmet flies off of the ball carrier is good common sense. That guy gets whacked in the head with a helmet and you are asking for serious trouble, like a probable death, so I can understand that. I heard they want to protect Wrs more now from getting big licks on them. Now that is going to wussify the game. The NFL bigwigs need to chill. IF the wussify their product too much folks will go to the NHL!!!![/quote]

Come on dude? This is the Brave New World. That's been replaced with, "If it's not broken, eff with it until it is."

Re: Competition Committee proposals: end play when ball carrier's helmet comes off & sudden death overtime
 

Goodell wants all week 17 and most of week 16 games to be divisional games

[url=http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/playerbreakingnews.asp?sport=NFL&id=1493&line=170375&spln=1]Fantasy Football Breaking News - Rotoworld.com[/url]

Re: Competition Committee proposals: end play when ball carrier's helmet comes off & sudden death overtime
 

couple of points:

1) if team A tries an onside kick to start the OT, if team B recovers the ball, all team B needs to do is kick a field goal. the new rule only gives you the opportunity to posess the ball. you waived that opportunity by taking your chance on an on-side kick.

2) rex ryan said if he won the coin flip in OT he would:

kick off, have his D get a stop, then go down the field and kick a field goal for the win. this may very well be the best coaching strategy i have heard re. the new OT rules.

3) that article linked either in this thread or the old one really did a fine job of trying to explain a complex aspect of how this new rule actually does not give fair advantage to both teams. under the new rules, the team that gets the ball second on offense (if first team kicks a fg) is at an advantage b/c they will have 4 downs at their disposal to get either a FG or TD compared to the original team that had to call plays under the traditional 3 downs to get 10 yds or punt scenario.

4) of the 27 or so playoff games that went into OT, only 3 would have been effected by this rule.

5) I believe (no solid source) that opposition to this new OT rule change came from 4 teams (1 owner bills? didnt want any change) who wanted to just add another quarter of play. to traditionalists, this represents the best way of not having the problem of this new rule changing the way coaches make play calls (see point 3 above).

Re: Competition Committee proposals: end play when ball carrier's helmet comes off & sudden death overtime
 

[quote=tryfuhl;677957]Goodell wants all week 17 and most of week 16 games to be divisional games

[URL="http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/playerbreakingnews.asp?sport=NFL&id=1493&line=170375&spln=1"]Fantasy Football Breaking News - Rotoworld.com[/URL][/quote]

I like that. Nothing better than those late season division games with something on the line.

Still, if nothing is on the line it's not going to stop teams from resting guys.

Re: Competition Committee proposals: end play when ball carrier's helmet comes off & sudden death overtime
 

[quote=Mattyk;678030]I like that. Nothing better than those late season division games with something on the line.

Still, if nothing is on the line it's not going to stop teams from resting guys.[/quote]

Yeah, you could get a repeat of our stomping of Dallas to get us into the playoffs but really not meaning a lot to them (or did it determine if they got home field?)

Say it's the locked in number 1 vs the number 4.. who cares?

Decent idea though.. even if there aren't playoff implications it gives the fans
(I'd argue casual fans) of teams that won't make it to continue following their team.. increased tv ratings, attendance, etc

Re: Competition Committee proposals: end play when ball carrier's helmet comes off & sudden death overtime
 

[quote=over the mountain;678028]couple of points:

1) if team A tries an onside kick to start the OT, if team B recovers the ball, all team B needs to do is kick a field goal. the new rule only gives you the opportunity to posess the ball. you waived that opportunity by taking your chance on an on-side kick. [/quote]

Will they consider the onside kick an actual possession? If you don't recover it it's the same as a regular kickoff, just much shorter, no?

[quote]
2) rex ryan said if he won the coin flip in OT he would:

kick off, have his D get a stop, then go down the field and kick a field goal for the win. this may very well be the best coaching strategy i have heard re. the new OT rules.
[/quote]
that's pretty much what teams do now if they get the chance, must be nice to just command a stop by the D

Re: Competition Committee proposals: end play when ball carrier's helmet comes off & sudden death overtime
 

As far as injuries go, this is good to see.

[url=http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=5024799]NFL, NFL Alumni Association establish neurological care plan for retirees - ESPN[/url]

Re: Competition Committee proposals: end play when ball carrier's helmet comes off & sudden death overtime
 

definitely

Re: Competition Committee proposals: end play when ball carrier's helmet comes off & sudden death overtime
 

[quote=over the mountain;678028]couple of points:


3) that article linked either in this thread or the old one really did a fine job of trying to explain a complex aspect of how this new rule actually does not give fair advantage to both teams. under the new rules, the team that gets the ball second on offense (if first team kicks a fg) is at an advantage b/c they will have 4 downs at their disposal to get either a FG or TD compared to the original team that had to call plays under the traditional 3 downs to get 10 yds or punt scenario.

[/quote]

Yes and no with this point... it might look that the team that has the second offense has a bigger advantage because it can play all 4 downs but it isn't really first if team one scores a TD game over team 2 doesn't get the ball back (a little advantage to the first team)

Now lets say team 1 scores a FG ok team 2 it's in sudden death they need to move the ball at least 40 yards in avg to score a FG and tie the game yeah they can use all 4 downs to do this but if they don't convert game over, miss FG game over and even if they use the 4 downs to go and make a FG now we enter Sudden death... so team 2 kicks and team 1 needs only a FG to win the game.

I think it's equal to both teams... let's say your the coach of team number 2 you're at the 20(of team 1) 4th and 2 would you kick a FG and tie the game and go to sudden death knowing team 1 gets the ball or play for it and try to go for the first down so you can get a TD and end the game... the 4th down play will be used Early but I don't see a lot of coaches playing the 4th down once they get in FG range to tie the game.

Re: Competition Committee proposals: end play when ball carrier's helmet comes off & sudden death overtime
 

Watch, there will be no OT's next playoff, and the following season will be locked out so it would be 3 full seasons till we see how this rule plays out, and by then everyone will have forgotten and be shocked when the second kickoff (after the first team's FG) in OT is started.

Re: Competition Committee proposals: end play when ball carrier's helmet comes off & sudden death overtime
 

i was thinking the same thing. only 3 of 27 or so OT playoff games would have been effected by this new rule. this could take awhile for it actually to be applied.

i also wonder what the player's association is thinking. this hypothetically extends the amount of time they are going to have to play for the same pay. if this new rule is applied to regular season, i could see the players wanting this possibility of more playing time to be considered in their contracts.

also, from im guessing the owners rep, in an interview he was asked about how the players feel and if they could do this. he said, smuggly i might add, that it happened, they voted on it and that is that.

i came away with the impression that, in some way, this new rule change was also a sign to the players that the owners have many options and ways of controling things. that the owners are in control and all they have to do is vote and it becomes law. "its as simple as that"

d'boyz -
"I think it's equal to both teams"

"the 4th down play will be used Early but I don't see a lot of coaches playing the 4th down once they get in FG range to tie the game."

that second part i qouted is the unfair advantage imo, atleast how i see it at this neophyte stage.

Re: Competition Committee proposals: end play when ball carrier's helmet comes off & sudden death overtime
 

yeah [B]Over the mountain [/B] but it evens out in to ways first if the first team scores a TD game is over so team A has an advantage there and if team B ties the game with a FG team A can win with the next FG so that's why it's even.

I believe the owners will pass it for the full season in may... I think they did it this way first so it would get passed more easily and now tat it has passed they will add well why not do it for the whole season.