Re: Tebow or McCoy?
 

[quote=dmek25;679586]Tebow. to me, McCoy is a Brennen clone. not sure if Tebow can make the transition. [B]but the guy is a winner. there is something to be said for that[/B][/quote]


i completely agree with you. there's just something special about tebow. too me, he's got that "it factor" we always hear about.

Re: Tebow or McCoy?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;679621]I think if you protect Campbell, you'll get really good accuracy.[B] That's really all that was different in 2008.[/B]

Let him get hit all day long and, well, yeah, his mechanics go to hell. And then you get crappy accuracy like in 2009.[/quote]

I think there were more issues then his accuracy. I will agree with you on the fact that no QB will do well with out protection.

JC has had 5 yrs. He's shown little improvement. There is not another position on this team that would be getting 5 yrs of mediocre talent with out getting traded or cut. Hell some of you are already done with Thomas and Kelly.

Did JC's 08 season start out well looking to be a Pro Bowl season and possible MVP? Yes. Then our OL did break down and other teams figured out how to beat JC. Find a way to disquise the rush and confuse the hell out of him prior to the snap and he's done.

Re: Tebow or McCoy?
 

[quote=SBXVII;679643]I think there were more issues then his accuracy. I will agree with you on the fact that no QB will do well with out protection.

JC has had 5 yrs. [B]He's shown little improvement[/B]. [U][I]There is not another position on this team that would be getting 5 yrs of mediocre talent with out getting traded or cut[/I][/U]. Hell some of you are already done with Thomas and Kelly.

Did JC's 08 season start out well looking to be a Pro Bowl season and possible MVP? Yes. Then our OL did break down and other teams figured out how to beat JC. Find a way to disquise the rush and confuse the hell out of him prior to the snap and he's done.[/quote]Two back to back falsehoods there, although the latter is dependent on the former falsehood.

In general, I agree with your conclusion that we're screwed if the defense we're playing can be creative enough to attack from all different angles, and you're stuck doing the same vanilla blocking because the team isn't healthy enough to practice blocking schemes as a unit for the upcoming week. That pretty much kills any vertical attack that an offense featuring our receivers may have.

Re: Tebow or McCoy?
 

Still think folks are too enamored with these guys. All, but Clausen come from big time programs, stacked with talent, that take on average to below average opponents 90% of the time. When the hype machine is working on overtime for a player, I think the red flags need to automatically come out with recent draft history as our guide. THe only hyped up QBs during the draft in say the last what 10-15 years to produce a Lombardi both were named Manning. McNabb came close, but no cigar. Still, my point is the percentage of these overhyped college QBs making it isn't so hot. You mean to tell me all of a sudden at his pro day Tebow improved his mechanics? Bradford looked like a god at his? Sorry folks, I do watch college football. Tebow looks more like a game manager than a real QB when I watched him in the big games, and that is what he will be facing just about every week in the NFL in the age of parity. Bradford is the only one that has a real good shot at franchise status, but he too benefitted from playing on a stacked team in a conference that had a down year overall(TX ran away with it) and not known for solid defensive play. As for Clausen, he did play on a decent team, that underachieved, and ND kindly declined the bowl bid(the honorable thing to do). If anybody wants Clausen, might as well look at Lefevour, Stull, Kafka, Crompton, etc. I mean seriously. Shuler was the #1 stud and we got Frerotte in the seventh. Who ended up being the starter and making the pro bowl? Limiting ourselves to just the QBs that garner the headlines because they are on bigtime programs is absurd and can hurt us in the quest for a true franchise QB.

Re: Tebow or McCoy?
 

[quote=wolfeskins;679637]i completely agree with you. there's just something special about tebow. too me, he's got that "it factor" we always hear about.[/quote]


Don't believe the hype. They thought Carr and Harrington were the shit. Don't get me going about Leinart!!!!!! Tebow is only great when playing the likes of Vandy, OLe Miss, or Florida Atlantic. Other than that he is an above average QB.

Re: Tebow or McCoy?
 

I have a clear record as a McCoy supporter so my choice would be the UT star. However, I would trust Shanny and support the drafting of Tim Tebow (alot of upside).

Re: Tebow or McCoy?
 

We should keep JC through 2011 and draft Mallet or Keenum from Houston since we have a nice down the field system in the works with Kyle.

Re: Tebow or McCoy?
 

But can we get Ramsey?

Re: Tebow or McCoy?
 

[quote=GusFrerotte;679654]Don't believe the hype. They thought Carr and Harrington were the shit. Don't get me going about Leinart!!!!!! Tebow is only great when playing the likes of Vandy, OLe Miss, or Florida Atlantic. Other than that he is an above average QB.[/quote]

Leinart would have been great if it wasn't for his party habits. He still has a chance to be a top flight QB, but I'm surprised as anyone at how much he's flopped over the last few years.

Re: Tebow or McCoy?
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;679564]My faith in the chosen one shall protect me. You on the other hand should know full well what to expect just pray the mighty Tebow makes it quick.



Still smarter then going against the chosen one. Tebow is the football savior, the great white hope, and whatever else his heart desires. [B]All those Chuck Norris jokes were originally Tebow facts, but because his highness is so humble he decided to save the career of Chuck Norris.[/B][/quote]

LMAO!! And SmootSmack, how dare you pick Dolt McCoy over SuperMan!! :)

Did you know that crop circles weren't made by aliens? They are Tim Tebow's way of telling corn that sometimes it needs to lay the eff down.

I would take Tebow in a heartbeat over Colt for reasons I've stated ad nauseum.

Re: Tebow or McCoy?
 

[quote=GusFrerotte;679654]Don't believe the hype. They thought Carr and Harrington were the shit. Don't get me going about Leinart!!!!!! Tebow is only great when playing the likes of Vandy, OLe Miss, or Florida Atlantic. Other than that [B]he is an above average QB.[/B][/quote]


well that right there makes him an upgrade over campbell.

Re: Tebow or McCoy?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;679589]Here's how they rate in key statistical categories compared to QBs drafted in the last five years, and QBs in this draft class:

[B]Tebow[/B]
QB Starts = Strong
Completion % = Above Average
TD Rate = Elite
INT Rate = Elite
Sack Rate = Average
Career variance = Above Average

[B]McCoy[/B]
QB Starts = Elite
Completion % = Elite
TD Rate = Above Average
INT Rate = Average
Sack Rate = Above Average
Career variance = Elite

For comparison

[B]Bradford[/B]
QB Starts = Average
Completion % = Strong
TD Rate = Elite
INT Rate = Elite
Sack Rate = Elite
Career variance = Below Average

[B]Clausen[/B]
QB Starts = Above Average
Completion % = Average
TD Rate = Average
INT Rate = Above Average
Sack Rate = Weak
Career variance = Average

Caviet: TD and INT rates usually don't translate well to the pros. My reasoning: team effects and offensive systems can generate a lot of TD/INT production that isn't really due to the quarterback.[/quote]Are these career numbers or most recent year numbers?

Re: Tebow or McCoy?
 

Full career only.

Re: Tebow or McCoy?
 

I can't vote for either. I don't think Tebow will be ready to start for a team in '11.

Re: Tebow or McCoy?
 

If McCoy erases the doubts about his arm strength at his pro-day i'll take McCoy.

But, the round we take them matters alot imo.

Re: Tebow or McCoy?
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;679671]Leinart would have been great if it wasn't for his party habits. He still has a chance to be a top flight QB, but I'm surprised as anyone at how much he's flopped over the last few years.[/quote]


All of the overhyped guys are very good QBs Dirtbag, I am just saying they are not gods, and since they tend to play for powerhouse teams in conferences not known for parity they can't handle parity as well as say the very good QBs from above average to average teams. That is why I have been pushing for the "second tier" guys to be looked at by our FO. Those guys have done pretty well facing teams on their talent level or higher. Leinart was a big partier, but his teams could have beaten the low level NFL teams probably like Detroit, Oakland, and Cleveland. Tebow blew chunks facing Bama, and McCoy was simply MIA against Bama for the title. Bradford is the same also. I would hate for us to get one of these guys with a first round pick and he busts and say Dallas or Philly take a gamble with a second tier guy and they get a new franchise QB. We can't afford another Shuler/Ramsey incident or we are in for a long rebuilding effort by Shanny and Allen.

Re: Tebow or McCoy?
 

[quote=wolfeskins;679673]well that right there makes him an upgrade over campbell.[/quote]
JC was 14th in passing yards with a crappy team around him. Tebow had a stacked team around him in Florida. What happened at the end when the Gators played another stacked team( the only other real strong team in the SEC) for the SEC title? Tebow choked then cried like a mama's boy.

Re: Tebow or McCoy?
 

[quote=GusFrerotte;679695]JC was 14th in passing yards with a crappy team around him. Tebow had a stacked team around him in Florida. What happened at the end when the Gators played another stacked team( the only other real strong team in the SEC) for the SEC title? Tebow choked then cried like a mama's boy.[/quote]

LOL. He dominated the SEC his entire time at Florida. What happened in the SEC Championship game the year before when they stomped on that same Bama team (almost all starters returned)? Tebow did have a stacked team around him, and proceeded to break tons of records and dominate like no other player in college history. You reference one game and condemn him on that. Pretty funny, in a sad kind of way. How many other times did he put the Gators on his back in crunch time and lead them to wins?

Is JC a better pro QB than Tebow? Of course he is right now. Is your argument laughable? No question.

Re: Tebow or McCoy?
 

Dude he had the #1 rushing offense and a huge offensive line around him in '09. What more can you ask for? It begs the question many had about JC. Was he good on his own or was it because he had two first round RBs lining up behind him. And yes Florida was stacked with talent compared to the likes of Florida Atlantic, Vandy, Ole Miss, Tenn, S Carolina, Miss St, etc. Most of the major conferences had sort of a down year in terms of competition for the conference titles. Only the two teams that went to the championship game were really the only ones in contention the entire season(PAC 10 was a bit exciting the last 3 weeks). You want Tebow you can have him. He is a project at best.

Re: Tebow or McCoy?
 

[quote=GusFrerotte;679701]Dude he had the #1 rushing offense and a huge offensive line around him in '09. What more can you ask for? It begs the question many had about JC. Was he good on his own or was it because he had two first round RBs lining up behind him. And yes Florida was stacked with talent compared to the likes of Florida Atlantic, Vandy, Ole Miss, Tenn, S Carolina, Miss St, etc. Most of the major conferences had sort of a down year in terms of competition for the conference titles. Only the two teams that went to the championship game were really the only ones in contention the entire season(PAC 10 was a bit exciting the last 3 weeks). You want Tebow you can have him. He is a project at best.[/quote]

The #1 rushing offense? Damn right. Did you really just use rushing offense as an excuse for his success? Man that's hilarious, considering Tebow has more rushing TD's than any player in SEC history. He was a bigger part of the rushing offense than any of the Florida RBs. Instead of saying he "had the best rushing offense," maybe you should re-phrase and say he "was the best rushing offense." In addition to all the passing TDs that is.

Ole Miss, Arkansas, Georgia, Bama, South Carolina, and LSU were all pretty strong last season. Hell, LSU had won 30+ straight night games in Baton Rouge until Tebow showed up last fall. The SEC has had better years, but they are still the bell cow conference in college football, and he still dominated. But, like the typical Tebow hater, all you can do is reference the one game vs. Bama and mock him for crying. Coaches bend over backwards to find leaders who care that much.

Quick question- why did you mention Florida Atlantic???

Re: Tebow or McCoy?
 

Colt McCoy.....holds collegiate record in career victories, the focal point of the offense and universally recognized as THE team leader.

Tim Tebow.....2 National Championships, 1 Heisman Trophy (3 time finalist), the focal point of the offense and universally recognized as THE team leader.


Either way we go our franchise will have THE team leader for the next 15 years. Log it!

Re: Tebow or McCoy?
 

[quote=GMScud;679672]

[B]Did you know that crop circles weren't made by aliens? They are Tim Tebow's way of telling corn that sometimes it needs to lay the eff down.
[/B]
I would take Tebow in a heartbeat over Colt for reasons I've stated ad nauseum.[/quote]

Tebow has never lost a sock.

Re: Tebow or McCoy?
 

I don't believe either one of these guys could can get it done in the NFL. So I didn't vote for either one.

Re: Tebow or McCoy?
 

I mentioned this before but if the Skins draft Tebow it will divde this board big time. Look at the voting. you will have to make an avatar of Punchy wearing the number 15.

Re: Tebow or McCoy?
 

I'm not sure we could draft someone that the board will be 100% behind. Every player seems to have their share of supporters and doubters.

Re: Tebow or McCoy?
 

[quote=GusFrerotte;679653]Still think folks are too enamored with these guys. All, but Clausen come from big time programs, stacked with talent, that take on average to below average opponents 90% of the time. When the hype machine is working on overtime for a player, I think the red flags need to automatically come out with recent draft history as our guide. THe only hyped up QBs during the draft in say the last what 10-15 years to produce a Lombardi both were named Manning. McNabb came close, but no cigar. Still, my point is the percentage of these overhyped college QBs making it isn't so hot. You mean to tell me all of a sudden at his pro day Tebow improved his mechanics? Bradford looked like a god at his? Sorry folks, I do watch college football. Tebow looks more like a game manager than a real QB when I watched him in the big games, and that is what he will be facing just about every week in the NFL in the age of parity. Bradford is the only one that has a real good shot at franchise status, but he too benefitted from playing on a stacked team in a conference that had a down year overall(TX ran away with it) and not known for solid defensive play. As for Clausen, he did play on a decent team, that underachieved, and ND kindly declined the bowl bid(the honorable thing to do). If anybody wants Clausen, might as well look at Lefevour, Stull, Kafka, Crompton, etc. I mean seriously. Shuler was the #1 stud and we got Frerotte in the seventh. Who ended up being the starter and making the pro bowl? Limiting ourselves to just the QBs that garner the headlines because they are on bigtime programs is absurd and can hurt us in the quest for a true franchise QB.[/quote]
One of the most knowledgeable comments I've seen on this board regarding Tebow, McCoy and Bradford. I have to disagree about Clausen. The defenses that ND had while he was there were horrible, they could never stop anyone, it was pathetic. In my opinion, I think he is the most NFL ready QB coming out this year, without a doubt. If he gets picked up by a team that has some talent (Redskins), he will do very well.

Re: Tebow or McCoy?
 

[quote=Mattyk;679759]I'm not sure we could draft someone that the board will be 100% behind. Every player seems to have their share of supporters and doubters.[/quote]


Oh but Tebow is special.

Re: Tebow or McCoy?
 

If we draft Tebow before the 5th round, I will lose all respect that I have gained so far this off season for our front office. The guy is a 3 yr project!!!! He is NOT an NFL QB!!!

Re: Tebow or McCoy?
 

I wouldnt really want either of these QBs but if I have to pick I take McCoy. He's more of a pro-style QB while TT is a college style QB that I dont think has the accuracy needed to succeed in the pros.

Re: Tebow or McCoy?
 

[quote=FRPLG;679523]Since I don't think Tebow is ever going to be a NFL QB I'll go with McCoy.[/quote]
Ditto.

Re: Tebow or McCoy?
 

[quote=GusFrerotte;679669]We should keep JC through 2011 and draft Mallet or Keenum from Houston since we have a nice down the field system in the works with Kyle.[/quote]
that's what I'm talking about Ryan Mallett should be who we are targeting next year, and build the line this year..

Re: Tebow or McCoy?
 

[quote=Mattyk;679759]I'm not sure we could draft someone that the board will be 100% behind. Every player seems to have their share of supporters and doubters.[/quote]

Agreed. And being a Florida alum and HUGE fan, I obviously have my Tebow biases. I do have my doubts about him though. I've maintained all along that he needs to sit for at least one season, probably two before he's ready to play pro ball.

As someone mentioned earlier in this thread, Tebow is less of a risk than a guy like McCoy because of his athleticism. He's big, fast, very strong, and has a 38 inch vertical. Even if he doesn't work out at QB, he can still be a good HB, special teamer, and wildcat player. If any of the other top QB prospects bust, they are destined to be nothing more than a clipboard holder, or out of the league all together.

Re: Tebow or McCoy?
 

[quote=Mattyk;679759]I'm not sure we could draft someone that the board will be 100% behind. Every player seems to have their share of supporters and doubters.[/quote]I think Okung or Suh would be close to 100% in approval. But after that, someone is always going to hate the pick.

Re: Tebow or McCoy?
 

Neither! Colt McCoy won't have an impact till atleast 2012 (I would say much later) and Tim Tebow will not fall to us. I just read something online saying that the Saints were considering Tebow with their low 1st. That makes sense seeing they have no QB worries for the next few years so why not?

Re: Tebow or McCoy?
 

Tebow even does wedding engagements, the guy has talent!

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMBhiYro3bk&feature=player_embedded]YouTube - Tim Tebow Proposes Before the Draft - Mike Rothman[/url]

Re: Tebow or McCoy?
 

[quote=mredskins;679901]Tebow even does wedding engagements, the guy has talent!

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMBhiYro3bk&feature=player_embedded]YouTube - Tim Tebow Proposes Before the Draft - Mike Rothman[/url][/quote]

F*****k bastard. And to think I was just on a Jimmy Clausen kick.

Re: Tebow or McCoy?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;679875]I think Okung or Suh would be close to 100% in approval. But after that, someone is always going to hate the pick.[/quote]

I'd be happy with either; however the "problem" with Okung is that we could probably get a tackle 90% as good 10-20 picks later in the draft. if Suh were on the board, i'd be pretty pissed if we did anything other than drafting him or trading down, since we would have plenty of offers.

Re: Tebow or McCoy?
 

[quote=murphy196;679767]One of the most knowledgeable comments I've seen on this board regarding Tebow, McCoy and Bradford. I have to disagree about Clausen. The defenses that ND had while he was there were horrible, they could never stop anyone, it was pathetic. In my opinion, I think he is the most NFL ready QB coming out this year, without a doubt. If he gets picked up by a team that has some talent (Redskins), he will do very well.[/quote]


That part about Clausen wasn't supposed to be a knock against him per say, but he did have more talent than most of the guys I mentioned after him like Lefevour or Kafka, but like you say the ND defense sucked eggs. My thing is Clausen would be in the same category as the others since he played teams on the same talent level as ND. I think the guys that played on average teams that played opponents of similar or superior talent levels should be really looked at. They could probably handle parity better or even inferiority. The Shuler/Frerotte comparison was the best example I could think of.

Re: Tebow or McCoy?
 

[quote=GusFrerotte;679701]You want Tebow you can have him. He is a project at best.[/quote]


lets not forget the thread title. [U]tebow or mccoy.[/U] i'm not sure tebow is anyones first choice at qb.

Re: Tebow or McCoy?
 

[quote=wolfeskins;680002]lets not forget the thread title. [U]tebow or mccoy.[/U] i'm not sure tebow is anyones first choice at qb.[/quote]

But at the same time he could be as high as second. Most likely third on the list of teams that like him. It's just that some teams won't take Clausen till the second and that isn't likely to happen.