Re: Missouri Cops Raid House... Shoots Dogs with Children Present
 

[quote=mlmdub130;701470]from everything i have read/seen it looks like the went in the wrong side of a duplex. and allegedly there were people outside that told the oficers there were kids in the house, allegedly. but she was shot in the face i don't understand how that can happen these cops just sound trigger happy. i know it's a tough job but it's their job. they signed up for it[/quote]

What are you reading just clips from the family.

Upon entering the home, the officer encountered a 46-year-old female inside the front room, Godbee said. "Exactly what happened next is a matter still under investigation, but it appears the officer and the woman had some level of physical contact.
"At about this time, the officer's weapon discharged one round which, tragically, struck 7-year-old Aiyana Stanley Jones in the neck/head area."

The person they were after was arrested in the home:

Jones claimed the officers had the wrong house, but Godbee said in the statement the 34-year-old suspect in Blake's death was found and arrested at the home. In addition, a vehicle and a moped matching the descriptions of those involved in Blake's shooting were also found, he said.

Re: Missouri Cops Raid House... Shoots Dogs with Children Present
 

[quote=mlmdub130;701470]from everything i have read/seen it looks like the went in the wrong side of a duplex. and allegedly there were people outside that told the oficers there were kids in the house, allegedly. but she was shot in the face i don't understand how that can happen these cops just sound trigger happy. i know it's a tough job but it's their job. they signed up for it[/quote]
A 7yo is going to be standing at knee cap level or possibly thigh. There is simply no excuse for a trained officer to take that type of shot. And no, I wasn't there, and yes heat of the moment etc, but I did do a LOT of MOUT (military ops in urban terrain) training, and that is what these guys practice day in and day out.
The only exception I could see, and we will probably never know the truth, is if the 7yo actually drew a real or toy gun.

Re: Missouri Cops Raid House... Shoots Dogs with Children Present
 

[quote=firstdown;701473]What are you reading just clips from the family.

Upon entering the home, the officer encountered a 46-year-old female inside the front room, Godbee said. "Exactly what happened next is a matter still under investigation, but it appears the officer and the woman had some level of physical contact.
[B]"At about this time, the officer's weapon discharged one round which, tragically, struck 7-year-old Aiyana Stanley Jones in the neck/head area."
[/B]
The person they were after was arrested in the home:

Jones claimed the officers had the wrong house, but Godbee said in the statement the 34-year-old suspect in Blake's death was found and arrested at the home. In addition, a vehicle and a moped matching the descriptions of those involved in Blake's shooting were also found, he said.[/quote]
Regardless of if the person was in the home, you don't shoot a 7yo.

Re: Missouri Cops Raid House... Shoots Dogs with Children Present
 

[B][I]Interesting comment on CNN, ties into our Pot thread and how the war on drugs is a waste of time: [/I][/B]

Winston Churchill is commonly credited with having said, "Democracy means that when there's a knock in the door at 3 am, it's probably the milkman."

One wonders what Churchill would make of modern-day, drug war America.

For the last year, I've been researching a study on SWAT teams, "no-knock" raids, and the rise of paramilitary tactics in domestic policing (the study was released this week). The trends I've found are troubling, and some of the individual stories are absolutely heartbreaking.
Each day in America, police SWAT teams raid more than 100 private homes, many times very late at night, or very early in the morning. Many times, these teams don't even bother to knock. Because these raids are violent, confrontational, and often conducted on questionable intelligence (I'll get to that in a moment), they've left a long trail of "wrong address" raids on frightened innocents, needless injury, and even death.

Since the early 1980s, the U.S. has seen a 1,300 percent rise in the number of SWAT team deployments, from 3,000 per year in 1981, to more than 40,000 per year in 2001 (the number is likely even higher today). It's of no coincidence that this dramatic increase has taken place over the period the U.S. has reinvigorated its war on drugs.

According to Eastern Kentucky University criminologist Peter Kraska, who has tracked the trend, the vast majority of these raids are to serve routine drug warrants, many times for crimes no more serious than possession of marijuana.

If you've seen an episode of Cops or Dallas SWAT, you know the routine. These raids are commonly conducted late at night, or just before dawn, to catch suspects by surprise. Police sometimes deploy "flash grenades," then batter down or blow up doors with explosives. They then storm the home, subduing occupants, handcuffing them at gunpoint, sometimes pushing them to the ground.

They then search the home, typically with little regard for personal belongings. If the family dog gets in the way, he'll be executed.

This would all be acceptable if SWAT teams were used as they were originally intended. L.A. police chief Darryl Gates invented the concept in the 1960s shortly after the Watts riots. Gates wanted an elite team of police who could defuse dangerous situations like riots, hostage-takings, or bank robberies. For about a decade, that's how SWAT teams were used, and they performed marvelously.

Unfortunately, in the 1980s Congress began making surplus military gear available to local police departments, with the intent that they use it for drug enforcement. Millions of dollars worth of military-grade rifles, tanks, helicopters, body armor, and other gear made its way to civilian police organizations.

In some cases, the trend grew absurd. One rural county in Florida assembled its own air force with the helicopters and planes it got from the Pentagon. Another tiny town had more M-16s in its police department than the town had stoplights.

With all of this war gear, cities, towns, and even small towns decided to start their own SWAT teams. As often happens with government entities, the mission of these SWAT teams began to expand over time, to include not just emergency situations, but more routine police work as well. Federal grants for drug arrests and asset forfeiture laws that make drug policing more lucrative than other types of policing offered further incentives to use SWAT teams to serve drug warrants.

The problem is, drug policing is quite a bit different than sending an elite paramilitary team to deal with a known, immediate threat to the community. When there's a hostage situation, a bank robbery, or a riot, it's pretty clear where the incident is happening, and who's involved. That's not true of the drug trade.

Because most drug crimes are consensual crimes, there's no direct victim to report them. Therefore, police have to rely on informants to tip them off to whose dealing, and where. These informants are notoriously unreliable. They tend to be criminals themselves, looking for leniency. Or they could be rival drug dealers, looking to bump off the competition.

The problem is, these violent, highly-confrontational SWAT raids are conducted based on information first gleaned from informants. Which means the information isn't always accurate. Which means an untold number of innocent Americans have been subjected to the horrifying predicament of having armed men invade their homes in the middle of the night, and needing to decide immediately upon waking if the intruders are cops or criminals, and if they should submit or resist.

Of course, even if the suspect is guilty of small-time dope use or dope dealing, I would argue that that doesn't mean there's justification for kicking down their doors and invading their homes as they're sleeping.

Have a look at this map. It plots nearly 300 botched SWAT raids I've found over the course of about a year of research. It is by no means comprehensive. My guess is that it doesn't even begin to make a full accounting for how many times this has happened, both because police are reluctant to report their mistakes, and because the victims of botched raids are often too afraid or embarrassed to come forward.

As I've begun to write about this issue, many more victims of these raids have called or emailed to tell me their own stories - most of which never made it into the newspaper.

But even the documented cases should be cause for concern. They include the cases of Salvatore Culosi and Cory Maye, both of whom I've written about previously in this column. They include 40 cases in which a completely innocent person was killed. There are dozens more in which nonviolent offenders (recreational pot smokers, for example, or small-time gamblers like Culosi) or police officers were needlessly killed.

There are nearly 150 cases in which innocent families, sometimes with children, were roused form their beds at gunpoint, and subjected to the fright of being apprehended and thoroughly searched at gunpoint. There are other cases in which a SWAT team seems wholly inappropriate, such as the apprehension of medical marijuana patients, many of whom are bedridden.

Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be much appetite for change. When a 2003 mistaken raid in New York City ended with the death of 57-year-old Alberta Spruill -- who was completely innocent -- public outrage and media scrutiny forced the city to promise reforms. One attorney who specializes in these cases tells me that barely three years later, the mistaken raids are happening again, and that the city maintains the reforms it promised were merely "discretionary."

Increasingly, these raids are moving beyond the drug war. SWAT teams are now being employed to serve white collar warrants, too, as was the case with Culosi. Sad as it is, perhaps that's what it will take. Perhaps once upper-class people with more power and social leverage begin to feel the brunt force of this blunt law enforcement tool, we'll begin to see some change. less

Re: Missouri Cops Raid House... Shoots Dogs with Children Present
 

Ideally you don't shoot a 7 year old, but shit happens in these raids.

Ideally the woman shouldn't be struggling with the cops either which could have caused the stray shot.

Re: Missouri Cops Raid House... Shoots Dogs with Children Present
 

[quote=firstdown;701473]What are you reading just clips from the family.

Upon entering the home, the officer encountered a 46-year-old female inside the front room, Godbee said. "Exactly what happened next is a matter still under investigation, but it appears the officer and the woman had some level of physical contact.
"At about this time, the officer's weapon discharged one round which, tragically, struck 7-year-old Aiyana Stanley Jones in the neck/head area."

The person they were after was arrested in the home:
[B]
Jones claimed the officers had the wrong house, but Godbee said in the statement the 34-year-old suspect in Blake's death was found and arrested at the home. In addition, a vehicle and a moped matching the descriptions of those involved in Blake's shooting were also found, he said[/B].[/quote]

yes he was in the house but it was a duplex and it sounds like he was in the other half of it. not confirmed but thats what it sounds like

Re: Missouri Cops Raid House... Shoots Dogs with Children Present
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;701474]A 7yo is going to be standing at knee cap level or possibly thigh. There is simply no excuse for a trained officer to take that type of shot. And no, I wasn't there, and yes heat of the moment etc, [B]but I did do a LOT of MOUT (military ops in urban terrain) training, and that is what these guys practice day in and day out. [/B]
The only exception I could see, and we will probably never know the truth, is if the 7yo actually drew a real or toy gun.[/quote]

i did as well and thats why imo there really is no excuse they train for this stuff day in and day out. like i said it's a tough job, really tough, but they signed up for it

Re: Missouri Cops Raid House... Shoots Dogs with Children Present
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;701475]Regardless of if the person was in the home, you don't shoot a 7yo.[/quote]

Read the article the officer was having a strugle with some lady in the home when the gun went off.

Re: Missouri Cops Raid House... Shoots Dogs with Children Present
 

Justify it all you want, it's wrong. These guys are trained day in day out for these operations, they have rules and regs about engaging.

Re: Missouri Cops Raid House... Shoots Dogs with Children Present
 

How come children get shot almost everyday when they get caught up in some gang gun fight but we never see this hugh up roar.

Re: Missouri Cops Raid House... Shoots Dogs with Children Present
 

[quote=firstdown;701485]How come children get shot almost everyday when they get caught up in some gang gun fight but we never see this hugh up roar.[/quote]

because it's not the cops shooting kids normally are you being serious

Re: Missouri Cops Raid House... Shoots Dogs with Children Present
 

Regardless of rules and regulations these raids are dangerous and very unpredictable for everyone involved. Nobody wants to see an innocent child harmed or killed.

Should these raids even happen in the first place should be the question.

Re: Missouri Cops Raid House... Shoots Dogs with Children Present
 

[quote=mlmdub130;701487]because it's not the cops shooting kids normally are you being serious[/quote]

Yes I'm being serious. It never seems like an issue until a cop is involved then you see everyone getting ticked. Why don't they get ticked at the random violence claiming children every day. A child gets killed in the cross fire of gangs and the cops cannot catch the shooter because everyone says No Snitch.

Re: Missouri Cops Raid House... Shoots Dogs with Children Present
 

[quote=mredskins;701478][B][I]Interesting comment on CNN, ties into our Pot thread and how the war on drugs is a waste of time: [/I][/B]

Winston Churchill is commonly credited with having said, "Democracy means that when there's a knock in the door at 3 am, it's probably the milkman."

One wonders what Churchill would make of modern-day, drug war America.

For the last year, I've been researching a study on SWAT teams, "no-knock" raids, and the rise of paramilitary tactics in domestic policing (the study was released this week). The trends I've found are troubling, and some of the individual stories are absolutely heartbreaking.
Each day in America, police SWAT teams raid more than 100 private homes, many times very late at night, or very early in the morning. Many times, these teams don't even bother to knock. Because these raids are violent, confrontational, and often conducted on questionable intelligence (I'll get to that in a moment), they've left a long trail of "wrong address" raids on frightened innocents, needless injury, and even death.

Since the early 1980s, the U.S. has seen a 1,300 percent rise in the number of SWAT team deployments, from 3,000 per year in 1981, to more than 40,000 per year in 2001 (the number is likely even higher today). It's of no coincidence that this dramatic increase has taken place over the period the U.S. has reinvigorated its war on drugs.

According to Eastern Kentucky University criminologist Peter Kraska, who has tracked the trend, the vast majority of these raids are to serve routine drug warrants, many times for crimes no more serious than possession of marijuana.

If you've seen an episode of Cops or Dallas SWAT, you know the routine. These raids are commonly conducted late at night, or just before dawn, to catch suspects by surprise. Police sometimes deploy "flash grenades," then batter down or blow up doors with explosives. They then storm the home, subduing occupants, handcuffing them at gunpoint, sometimes pushing them to the ground.

They then search the home, typically with little regard for personal belongings. If the family dog gets in the way, he'll be executed.

This would all be acceptable if SWAT teams were used as they were originally intended. L.A. police chief Darryl Gates invented the concept in the 1960s shortly after the Watts riots. Gates wanted an elite team of police who could defuse dangerous situations like riots, hostage-takings, or bank robberies. For about a decade, that's how SWAT teams were used, and they performed marvelously.

Unfortunately, in the 1980s Congress began making surplus military gear available to local police departments, with the intent that they use it for drug enforcement. Millions of dollars worth of military-grade rifles, tanks, helicopters, body armor, and other gear made its way to civilian police organizations.

In some cases, the trend grew absurd. One rural county in Florida assembled its own air force with the helicopters and planes it got from the Pentagon. Another tiny town had more M-16s in its police department than the town had stoplights.

With all of this war gear, cities, towns, and even small towns decided to start their own SWAT teams. As often happens with government entities, the mission of these SWAT teams began to expand over time, to include not just emergency situations, but more routine police work as well. Federal grants for drug arrests and asset forfeiture laws that make drug policing more lucrative than other types of policing offered further incentives to use SWAT teams to serve drug warrants.

The problem is, drug policing is quite a bit different than sending an elite paramilitary team to deal with a known, immediate threat to the community. When there's a hostage situation, a bank robbery, or a riot, it's pretty clear where the incident is happening, and who's involved. That's not true of the drug trade.

Because most drug crimes are consensual crimes, there's no direct victim to report them. Therefore, police have to rely on informants to tip them off to whose dealing, and where. These informants are notoriously unreliable. They tend to be criminals themselves, looking for leniency. Or they could be rival drug dealers, looking to bump off the competition.

The problem is, these violent, highly-confrontational SWAT raids are conducted based on information first gleaned from informants. Which means the information isn't always accurate. Which means an untold number of innocent Americans have been subjected to the horrifying predicament of having armed men invade their homes in the middle of the night, and needing to decide immediately upon waking if the intruders are cops or criminals, and if they should submit or resist.

Of course, even if the suspect is guilty of small-time dope use or dope dealing, I would argue that that doesn't mean there's justification for kicking down their doors and invading their homes as they're sleeping.

Have a look at this map. It plots nearly 300 botched SWAT raids I've found over the course of about a year of research. It is by no means comprehensive. My guess is that it doesn't even begin to make a full accounting for how many times this has happened, both because police are reluctant to report their mistakes, and because the victims of botched raids are often too afraid or embarrassed to come forward.

As I've begun to write about this issue, many more victims of these raids have called or emailed to tell me their own stories - most of which never made it into the newspaper.

But even the documented cases should be cause for concern. They include the cases of Salvatore Culosi and Cory Maye, both of whom I've written about previously in this column. They include 40 cases in which a completely innocent person was killed. There are dozens more in which nonviolent offenders (recreational pot smokers, for example, or small-time gamblers like Culosi) or police officers were needlessly killed.

There are nearly 150 cases in which innocent families, sometimes with children, were roused form their beds at gunpoint, and subjected to the fright of being apprehended and thoroughly searched at gunpoint. There are other cases in which a SWAT team seems wholly inappropriate, such as the apprehension of medical marijuana patients, many of whom are bedridden.

Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be much appetite for change. When a 2003 mistaken raid in New York City ended with the death of 57-year-old Alberta Spruill -- who was completely innocent -- public outrage and media scrutiny forced the city to promise reforms. One attorney who specializes in these cases tells me that barely three years later, the mistaken raids are happening again, and that the city maintains the reforms it promised were merely "discretionary."

Increasingly, these raids are moving beyond the drug war. SWAT teams are now being employed to serve white collar warrants, too, as was the case with Culosi. Sad as it is, perhaps that's what it will take. Perhaps once upper-class people with more power and social leverage begin to feel the brunt force of this blunt law enforcement tool, we'll begin to see some change. less[/quote]


This thread was moving really fast when I posted this, good read.

Re: Missouri Cops Raid House... Shoots Dogs with Children Present
 

[quote=firstdown;701485]How come children get shot almost everyday when they get caught up in some gang gun fight but we never see this hugh up roar.[/quote]
Because the police initiated this and bear the responsibility for the protection of civilians and children in their target area. It is the same as military operations in heavily civilian areas, are children injured by locals, yes, but we are there in a different role. In this case the police are there as a protector of society's rules, not as another gang enforcer, and as such they have a higher obligation. They can take due care to make sure their target is secluded, and they chose the time of this operation. There simply is no justification, barring the child drawing a weapon or the quantum physics book.

Re: Missouri Cops Raid House... Shoots Dogs with Children Present
 

[IMG]http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2010/CRIME/05/16/michigan.police.child/story.girl.killed.raid.wdiv.jpg[/IMG]

Re: Missouri Cops Raid House... Shoots Dogs with Children Present
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;701504][IMG]http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2010/CRIME/05/16/michigan.police.child/story.girl.killed.raid.wdiv.jpg[/IMG][/quote]


Says it all, RIP little one. =(

Re: Missouri Cops Raid House... Shoots Dogs with Children Present
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;701500]Because the police initiated this and bear the responsibility for the protection of civilians and children in their target area. It is the same as military operations in heavily civilian areas, are children injured by locals, yes, but we are there in a different role. In this case the police are there as a protector of society's rules, not as another gang enforcer, and as such they have a higher obligation. They can take due care to make sure their target is secluded, and they chose the time of this operation. There simply is no justification, barring the child drawing a weapon or the quantum physics book.[/quote]

I understand all of that but my point is this happens eveyday but people just move on and ignore the issue. Just like people are blowing me off for asking the question. The death of this girl was an accident when the officers gun went off but we kids are shooting up neighbor hoods every night and its like no big deal.

Re: Missouri Cops Raid House... Shoots Dogs with Children Present
 

[quote=firstdown;701483]Read the article the officer was having a strugle with some lady in the home when the gun went off.[/quote]

This is disputed part of what actually happened, and a typical bullsh*t excuse a cop would try to throw to the wall hoping it will stick to help cover his ass. I read a follow up this morning stating that there wasnt a struggle but contact made as officers forced there way through the residence.

Re: Missouri Cops Raid House... Shoots Dogs with Children Present
 

[quote=Chico23231;701510]This is disputed part of what actually happened, and a typical bullsh*t excuse a cop would try to throw to the wall hoping it will stick to help cover his ass. I read a follow up this morning stating that there wasnt a struggle but contact made as officers forced there way through the residence.[/quote]

I saw that as well but at this point we don't know what happened. Sounds like an accident either way and now this officer will have to live with this the rest of his life. Also if the guy was arrested in their home they hold the burden of allowing a guy who killed someone to hide out in their home but I guess we can just ignore that.

Re: Missouri Cops Raid House... Shoots Dogs with Children Present
 

For once we're on the same page FD.

Shitty that this happened, but I'm sure the cop didn't intend on shooting and killing a 7 year old child. You're right, that guy is going to have to live with that for the rest of his life. Not a small burden at all.

Re: Missouri Cops Raid House... Shoots Dogs with Children Present
 

[quote=firstdown;701512]I saw that as well but at this point we don't know what happened. Sounds like an accident either way and now this officer will have to live with this the rest of his life. [B]Also if the guy was arrested in their home they hold the burden of allowing a guy who killed someone to hide out in their home but I guess we can just ignore that[/B].[/quote]

I don't give a damn who was in the house. In the first place, no knock warrants are retarded. It's a high risk warrant because THE POLICE decided to kick in the door instead of sitting on the house and jacking him up when he left. There's no reason to go running into a house with your guns drawn to catch one killer, you don't know what's on the other side of that door, it's dangerous for everyone involved and it's just plain stupid. Second, the officer is trained to handle situations like that and guns don't just "go off." He pulled the f'ing trigger, he should be owning up to it. Saying it was "an accident" doesn't excuse the fact that the police took the life of a 7 year old girl. Neither does the fact that someone let the man stay there (who knows if they knew what he had done, but you conveniently overlook that fact while you calmly excuse the death of a 7 year old). A lot of people are taking a nonchalant approach saying, "it's not like he meant to kill her." Who cares what he meant to do? He killed the kid.

How much safer is the city of Detroit now, btw that one murderer was apprehended? How much safer is the city in Missouri because a guy who had a little bit of pot was apprehended by police? The fact remains that the raids are stupid and not a whole lot of good comes out of them.

Re: Missouri Cops Raid House... Shoots Dogs with Children Present
 

[quote=Mattyk;701516]For once we're on the same page FD.

Shitty that this happened, but I'm sure the cop didn't intend on shooting and killing a 7 year old child. You're right, that guy is going to have to live with that for the rest of his life. [B]Not a small burden at all.[/B][/quote]

"Not a small burden?" Really? Who don't we apply that logic to the guy the police were apprehending and excuse his murder because he's going to have carry that burden around :rolleyes:

Re: Missouri Cops Raid House... Shoots Dogs with Children Present
 

[quote=firstdown;701509]I understand all of that but my point is this happens eveyday but people just move on and ignore the issue. Just like people are blowing me off for asking the question. The death of this girl was an accident when the officers gun went off but we kids are shooting up neighbor hoods every night and its like no big deal.[/quote]

I don't think people move on and ignore the issue; communities set up community outreaches like the one JoeRedskin had started the thread on, to try to reduce violence in the neighborhoods. BUT when the police overstep and kill a 7yo girl, a huge fuss should be made about it, there should be internal reviews to find out what can be changed. These men and women train constantly to prevent this situation, and when it occurs it should be seen as a tragedy, and citizens should ask did the police do everything right. otherwise, the police should have staked out the bldg, and apprehended the suspect when he came outside. You can't have it both ways where you gripe about the government helping a local neighborhood develop a center that promotes civil behaviour and than turn around and say the community needs to behave better when the cops shoot an innocent.

Re: Missouri Cops Raid House... Shoots Dogs with Children Present
 

[quote=jdlea;701520]I don't give a damn who was in the house. In the first place, no knock warrants are retarded. It's a high risk warrant because THE POLICE decided to kick in the door instead of sitting on the house and jacking him up when he left. There's no reason to go running into a house with your guns drawn to catch one killer, you don't know what's on the other side of that door, it's dangerous for everyone involved and it's just plain stupid. Second, the officer is trained to handle situations like that and guns don't just "go off." He pulled the f'ing trigger, he should be owning up to it. Saying it was "an accident" doesn't excuse the fact that the police took the life of a 7 year old girl. Neither does the fact that someone let the man stay there (who knows if they knew what he had done, but you conveniently overlook that fact while you calmly excuse the death of a 7 year old). A lot of people are taking a nonchalant approach saying, "it's not like he meant to kill her." Who cares what he meant to do? He killed the kid.

How much safer is the city of Detroit now, btw that one murderer was apprehended? How much safer is the city in Missouri because a guy who had a little bit of pot was apprehended by police? The fact remains that the raids are stupid and not a whole lot of good comes out of them.[/quote]

I never excused the death of this child and I was actually making the point that this happens everyday but no one seems to care when its just gang stuff. Now that a cop has shot the kid by accident everyone is making a big issue of this. If your going to bitch about an accident then be consitent and bitch about killing of children. The cops where actually after a guy who had killed a kid and where was the out cry about that murder. Sense we invaded Iraq we have had around 135,000 murders in the US but no one never seems to get all worked up over many of those murders. It can be said that our service men are safer in Iraq then in some of our city neighborhoods but we ignore that violence and lost of children.

Re: Missouri Cops Raid House... Shoots Dogs with Children Present
 

[quote=jdlea;701522]"Not a small burden?" Really? Who don't we apply that logic to the guy the police were apprehending and excuse his murder because he's going to have carry that burden around :rolleyes:[/quote]

Not following you...

I'm not excusing anyone

Re: Missouri Cops Raid House... Shoots Dogs with Children Present
 

Look, there's plenty of blame to go around here, I'm just not a fan of playing the blame game and assuming the cops are the bad guys. Does anyone think it was their intention to kill a 7 year old? It's a shitty situation for sure but there's many sides to this story.

Re: Missouri Cops Raid House... Shoots Dogs with Children Present
 

[quote=firstdown;701525]I never excused the death of this child and I was actually making the point that this happens everyday but no one seems to care when its just gang stuff. Now that a cop has shot the kid by accident everyone is making a big issue of this. If your going to bitch about an accident then be consitent and bitch about killing of children. The cops where actually after a guy who had killed a kid and where was the out cry about that murder. Sense we invaded Iraq we have had around 135,000 murders in the US but no one never seems to get all worked up over many of those murders. It can be said that our service men are safer in Iraq then in some of our city neighborhoods but we ignore that violence and lost of children.[/quote]

2 things, then I will try to let it go.

Who ignores these murders? Don't we have government, law enforcement and politicians; as well as civic societies, leaders and local news working day in day out to bring these murders forward. Because you don't hear about every one, doesn't mean it or they are ignored in the community that they happen.

Second, again, police are, AND SHOULD BE, held to a higher standard in many ways. Why? Because they get to legally carry the guns and use them justifiably, and when they abuse, or misuse, their authority, even "accidentally", they reduce the trust society places in them.

In this case, they were the aggressor, and as the aggressor they need to be picture perfect in their execution or their actions, and outcomes will be called into question.

Re: Missouri Cops Raid House... Shoots Dogs with Children Present
 

[quote=Mattyk;701527]Look, there's plenty of blame to go around here, I'm just not a fan of playing the blame game and assuming the cops are the bad guys. Does anyone think it was their intention to kill a 7 year old? It's a shitty situation for sure but there's many sides to this story.[/quote]

I don't follow the "plenty of blame" on this one, the cops chose to assault this house at that time, they could have opted for many lesser aggressive behaviours, including stakeouts, warrants etc, but they chose the most aggressive form, and a 7yo innocent lost her life due to that simple choice. I don't see blame all around. just excuses for an overreaching decision on the use of force.

Re: Missouri Cops Raid House... Shoots Dogs with Children Present
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;701531]I don't follow the "plenty of blame" on this one, the cops chose to assault this house at that time, they could have opted for many lesser aggressive behaviours, including stakeouts, warrants etc, but they chose the most aggressive form, and a 7yo innocent lost her life due to that simple choice. I don't see blame all around. just excuses for an overreaching decision on the use of force.[/quote]

The entire raid procedure needs to be reevaluated from the top down, wouldn't you agree?

And at the heart of it, this guy gave the police a reason to raid his place, no? We're not talking about an innocent civilian.

And if there was a struggle upon the police entering that's a factor as well.

I'm not clear on how the cops are the only ones to blame.

Re: Missouri Cops Raid House... Shoots Dogs with Children Present
 

[QUOTE]DETROIT – Seven-year-old Aiyana Jones was asleep on the living room sofa in her family's apartment when Detroit police searching for a homicide suspect burst in and an officer's gun went off, fatally striking the girl in the neck, family members say.

Her father, 25-year-old Charles Jones, told The Detroit News he had just gone to bed early Sunday after covering his daughter with her favorite Disney princess blanket when he heard a flash grenade followed by a gunshot. When he rushed into the living room, [B]he said, police forced him to lie on the ground, with his face in his daughter's blood.[/B]

"I'll never be the same. That's my only daughter," Jones told WXYZ-TV.

Assistant Chief Ralph Godbee said officers set off the flash grenade as they entered the apartment with their guns drawn about 12:40 a.m.

...

Family members identified the woman as the child's grandmother and Charles Jones' mother, Mertilla Jones, who has said she was not involved in a struggle with the officer. [B]Police later said the officer may have just collided with the woman.[/B][/QUOTE]

no excuse imo

Re: Missouri Cops Raid House... Shoots Dogs with Children Present
 

[quote=firstdown;701525]I never excused the death of this child and I was actually making the point that this happens everyday but no one seems to care when its just gang stuff. Now that a cop has shot the kid by accident everyone is making a big issue of this. If your going to bitch about an accident then be consitent and bitch about killing of children. The cops where actually after a guy who had killed a kid and where was the out cry about that murder. Sense we invaded Iraq we have had around 135,000 murders in the US but no one never seems to get all worked up over many of those murders. It can be said that our service men are safer in Iraq then in some of our city neighborhoods but we ignore that violence and lost of children.[/quote]

Well, I am consistent and I get worked up over the killing of every child I hear about, I just don't usually address it on a message board. I don't think there's ever any excuse for it.

In regards to getting worked up over every murder, I'm consistent on that as well, I only ever get worked up when innocents are killed. I have no problem with gang members/drug dealers killing each other so long as they're accurate when they decide to shoot at each other areas where others may be harmed.

As for the "excusing the death of a child" comment, if that was not your intention, I apologize, it just seems that you're taking a bit of a laissez faire attitude as it pertains to the killing of a kid.

Re: Missouri Cops Raid House... Shoots Dogs with Children Present
 

[quote=Mattyk;701526]Not following you...

I'm not excusing anyone[/quote]

Like I said to FD, if that was not your attention, I apologize, but you're taking a very nonchalant approach to the killing of a 7 year old. The "he has to live with it excuse" is pretty horrendous, IMO.

As to your other points, in later posts. Yes, the raid procedure should be re-evaluated, probably eliminated, IMO.

Yes, the guy gave the police a reason to raid his home, however, the raid was poorly executed. IMO, the blame falls on the officers who raided that home, so I can't say there's plenty of blame to go around.

Re: Missouri Cops Raid House... Shoots Dogs with Children Present
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;701534]no excuse imo[/quote]

Yep...."police may have collided with woman"....just go ahead f*cking say it Detriot PD, the woman action did not lead to the shooting of the girl. Sounds like police reaching for excuses...

To comment on the blame, anybody harboring a dangerous fugitive is asking for alot of trouble, and if they knew already of what the person did then they should be ashamed, but the shooting of child just shows the even though accidental the community should be outraged.

Re: Missouri Cops Raid House... Shoots Dogs with Children Present
 

[quote=Mattyk;701533]The entire raid procedure needs to be reevaluated from the top down, wouldn't you agree?

And at the heart of it, this guy gave the police a reason to raid his place, no? We're not talking about an innocent civilian.

And if there was a struggle upon the police entering that's a factor as well.

I'm not clear on how the cops are the only ones to blame.[/quote]

Simple, because they chose the time and place. It sounds like she was burned by the flash bang. In other words, the cops were overly aggressive, they didn't check out the possible surroundings, and didn't know the occupants of the house. The police have backed off the "struggle" and say the officer may simply have collided with a 46 yo grandma.

Re: Missouri Cops Raid House... Shoots Dogs with Children Present
 

[quote=jdlea;701536]Like I said to FD, if that was not your attention, I apologize, but you're taking a very nonchalant approach to the killing of a 7 year old. The "he has to live with it excuse" is pretty horrendous, IMO.

As to your other points, in later posts. Yes, the raid procedure should be re-evaluated, probably eliminated, IMO.

Yes, the guy gave the police a reason to raid his home, however, the raid was poorly executed. IMO, the blame falls on the officers who raided that home, so I can't say there's plenty of blame to go around.[/quote]

Look, a 7 year old died. That's F'ing horrible. Not denying that at all. The whole thing was a cluster F. My only point is we shouldn't be so quick to pile on the cops especially without knowing all the facts.

For the cop who killed the kid, it's not an excuse, just saying he's gotta live with that. It's F'ing terrible all around.

Re: Missouri Cops Raid House... Shoots Dogs with Children Present
 

[quote=Mattyk;701533]The entire raid procedure needs to be reevaluated from the top down, wouldn't you agree?

[B]And at the heart of it, this guy gave the police a reason to raid his place, no? We're not talking about an innocent civilian.[/B]
And if there was a struggle upon the police entering that's a factor as well.

[B]I'm not clear on how the cops are the only ones to blame[/B].[/quote]

it was a duplex and from what i hear he was arrested in the opposite house but police had a search warrant for the entire unit and thats why they are saying he was arrested in the house.

also i have read and stated before that the neighbor all allegedy told the police there were kids in the house before they entered.

it remains to be seen if the cops are the only ones to blame. if in fact they had no reason for being in that side of the duplex, that means the family of the little girl did absolutly nothing wrong. i'm sure we will find out more details very shortly

Re: Missouri Cops Raid House... Shoots Dogs with Children Present
 

[quote=Chico23231;701537]Yep...."police may have collided with woman"....just go ahead f*cking say it Detriot PD, the woman action did not lead to the shooting of the girl. Sounds like police reaching for excuses...

To comment on the blame, anybody harboring a dangerous fugitive is asking for alot of trouble, and if they knew already of what the person did then they should be ashamed, but the shooting of child just shows the even though accidental the community should be outraged.[/quote]

Actually, coming out and saying it was a collision not a tussle is starting to acknowledge they were wrong. The main problem I have is with the timing and what would seem to be a lack of awareness as to what innocents might be in the harms way with this strike.

Re: Missouri Cops Raid House... Shoots Dogs with Children Present
 

Its sad and mistakes happen but where is the rage form the people living in the city with 365 murders in 2008 and tops the nation in murder rate. Oh its "No Snitch" when its a gang member or a common crook but have a cop make a mistake and they suddenly find their rage.

Re: Missouri Cops Raid House... Shoots Dogs with Children Present
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;701543]Actually, coming out and saying it was a collision not a tussle is starting to acknowledge they were wrong. [B]The main problem I have is with the timing and what would seem to be a lack of awareness as to what innocents might be in the harms way with this strike[/B].[/quote]

like say throwing a flash bang through a window where it hits a sleeping girl i think they really s the bed on this one and actually just read something interesting [quote]Detroit Police say the accidental shooting of little girl may have been caught on tape by a crew filming for the Cable TV show, "The First 48."[/quote] will be very interesting if thats the case, wonder if that had anything to do with possibly under planning the details of the raid