[QUOTE=skinsfan69;708065]I was shocked that we still did this. They need to do more of this IMO. With today's DNA testing I find it hard to believe that innocent people would be put to death. People like John Allen Muhamed should be thrown in alligator pits. Now that would be a great way to stop people from killing innocent people.

I was watching TLC the other night and they have a piece on the Petit murders in Conn. These tow guys are still alive after they killled two children and the guys wife. F that! These two should be killed in the worst way possible. They should be tortured just like they tortured the victims.[/QUOTE]

DNA evidence is far from being an exact science.

[QUOTE=Trample the Elderly;708059]God killed people in the Bible. So is God wrong?[/QUOTE]

I'm not big on fairy tales.

[QUOTE=firstdown;708081]I would not mind if they kept them in jail if they would bring them over and have them wash my cars, boat, cut my grass, trim the yard, and then take them back. If that won't happen then hang the suckers. We could do this at the city court yard on Friday nights and the city could make money selling beer and food. They could also sell rotted vegetables that we could throw at them as they are escorted in. The city could also sell lottery tickets to see who gets to pull the leaver. Then the city could drop them in some hole and send their family the bill.[/QUOTE]

You would have loved living in the dark ages.

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=Mattyk;708084]I'm not big on fairy tales.[/quote]

Me either but there is a difference between killing and murder. You've enjoyed the fruits of killing, or do you not eat meat?

Many Americans suffer from a life threatening disease called "affluentia". Many people are nice because they can afford to be. Take away the affluence and we'll act the same way everyone else does.

[QUOTE=Trample the Elderly;708086]Me either but there is a difference between killing and murder. You've enjoyed the fruits of killing.[/QUOTE]

Call it what you will but taking a human life is wrong. The law says so, no? But it's ok if the state does it? Sorry, can't buy that.

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;708063]LOL, yep.[/quote]

I may not be the most religious person in the world, but even I am not prepared to tell the big man he's wrong. IMO that's the epitome of arrogance. You'll have to fight that battle on your own.

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=Mattyk;708082]DNA evidence is far from being an exact science.[/quote]

You may or may not be right but when the cases are slam dunks like the ones I mentioned then something swift and ruthless needs to be done. These guys in Conn. raped and killed an 11year old and an 17 year old along w/ the mother. They were killed by smoke inhalation ( after they were all raped) or burned alive. These two killers have 0 rights and should have their throats slit like they do in the middle east. I may sound barbaric but I don't care. My heart goes out to the victims and their famlies, not the killers.

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=Mattyk;708050]Pretty much what it boils down to for me.

Killing is wrong, end of story. There shouldn't be any exceptions.[/quote]

I don't agree. And I don't see it as hypocritical, there's a distinction.

Someone who murders in cold blood took the life of another, thereby taking that person's right to life. It follows that they themselves are now no longer deserving of maintaining their own right to life. They forfeited that right the moment they snuffed out the life of another.

All we're doing as a society is evening the score. I don't see that as murder at all. In my mind, killing is 100% justified in the case of convicted murderers. I could pull the trigger myself, I wouldn't lose one wink of sleep over taking out someone who murdered.

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=Mattyk;708090]Call it what you will but taking a human life is wrong. The law says so, no? But it's ok if the state does it? Sorry, can't buy that.[/quote]

So when dope addicted scum break into your place, you're just going to let them do as they please with you and yours? Without law there can be no justice. Treblinka is a monument to the fallacy of your line of thinking. They thought killing was wrong too, even to defend themselves. I used to think like you do, (I'm not a fan of the government) but idealism has it's place.

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=Mattyk;708050]Pretty much what it boils down to for me.

Killing is wrong, end of story. There shouldn't be any exceptions.[/quote]
Murder: kill intentionally and with premeditation or
[B]unlawful[/B] premeditated killing of a human being by a human being

Murder is always wrong.

Killing is not always wrong.

[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justifiable_homicide"]Justifiable homicide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/URL]

Where is the justice for the victims of murder and their families? Life in prision with "3 hots and a cot", access to almost unlimited legal resources for appeal, etc. is nowhere near justice.

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=FRPLG;708048]While I don't disagree with you on your main point I would say your reasoning is the type of reasoning that will never ever result in the death penalty being really abolished.

1) [B]As far as I know there isn't a large contingent of death penalty advocates who are for it simply because they think it's cheaper.[/B] Mostly because that is blatantly immoral. They're for it because they think the killers deserve it. A cost argument is completely lost on them.

2) Here you have presented a statistical fallacy. Or more accurately been presented a statistical fallacy that you then bought hook line and sinker. Most of these studies are woeful. They are conducted by biased organizations and done in a poorly devised economical analysis. Basically the studies don't actually study whether the death penalty is a quality deterrent...they study whether the death penalty eliminates murder. Subtle distinction. For example...none of the studies I know of have adequately addressed whether Fla actually has less murder because of the death penalty or not. For all we know the death penalty in Fla does the best job in preventing murder but it simply isn't good enough to actually eliminate it. Maybe without the death penalty the murder rate would sky rocket to crazy levels.

I would guess you and I would agree that on the face of it I can't see how the death penalty actually deters murder. It seems like basic common sense to me that if you are the type that is going to kill someone in a manner "deserving" of the death penalty then the threat of the death penalty is probably moot.

[B]The best argument in my mind is that killing people for anything is just wrong. It is what we're trying to punish. Seems damn hypocritical and damn ironic to punish someone by doing to them what they did to somebody.[/B][/quote]

A) Actually a lot of people do justify the death penalty because they do not know that executions are more expensive. Just look at some of the posts in this thread. I've found personally that the cost argument is very effective for some people. Many people think that executions are actually a cheaper route and change their minds when they are properly informed. But to each his own. :)

B) I couldn't agree more about your "best argument." The death penalty just creates a culture of hypocritical violence in which, by putting murderers to death, we are ironically socialized to think that killing is ok. But in my own experience, some people are so full of hate that they just don't get this argument. For these people, someone's gotta die, period.

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=Schneed10;708102]I don't agree. And I don't see it as hypocritical, there's a distinction.

Someone who murders in cold blood took the life of another, thereby taking that person's right to life. It follows that they themselves are now no longer deserving of maintaining their own right to life. They forfeited that right the moment they snuffed out the life of another.

All we're doing as a society is evening the score. I don't see that as murder at all. In my mind, killing is 100% justified in the case of convicted murderers. I could pull the trigger myself, I wouldn't lose one wink of sleep over taking out someone who murdered.[/quote]

"An eye for an eye just makes the whole world blind." - Gandhi

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=Schneed10;708102]I don't agree. And I don't see it as hypocritical, there's a distinction.

Someone who murders in cold blood took the life of another, thereby taking that person's right to life. It follows that they themselves are now no longer deserving of maintaining their own right to life. They forfeited that right the moment they snuffed out the life of another.

All we're doing as a society is evening the score. I don't see that as murder at all. In my mind, killing is 100% justified in the case of convicted murderers. I could pull the trigger myself, I wouldn't lose one wink of sleep over taking out someone who murdered.[/quote]

What about when the State kills a convicted murderer who was later proven to be innocent? Is that murder? If so, who should be killed in retaliation for that? How do we settle that score?

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=Lotus;708120]"An eye for an eye just makes the whole world blind." - Gandhi[/quote]

I'm sure that's what people in India say to themselves when Pakistani gunman shoot up hotels and murder people in cold blood. I wonder if the Indian security forces stopped and said that to each other before they shot those admitted CIA led "terrorist"?

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=Lotus;708120]"An eye for an eye just makes the whole world blind." - Gandhi[/quote]

What does that even mean? Seriously, that's so contrived.

I think of it as a right for a right. You take away someone else's right to live, then you lose your own. Fair's fair.

I'm not a fan of forgiving murderers.

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;708124]What about when the State kills a convicted murderer who was later proven to be innocent? Is that murder? If so, who should be killed in retaliation for that? How do we settle that score?[/quote]

A cost of doing business that I'm willing to accept, given today's increasing burden of proof when it comes to finding evidence required to obtain a conviction.

It's for the greater good. The accidental conviction and execution would have been done out of error, and therefore not equivocal to cold blooded murder.

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;708124]What about when the State kills a convicted murderer who was later proven to be innocent? Is that murder? If so, who should be killed in retaliation for that? How do we settle that score?[/quote]

No, because there was no malicious intent.

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=Trample the Elderly;708107]So when dope addicted scum break into your place, you're just going to let them do as they please with you and yours? Without law there can be no justice. Treblinka is a monument to the fallacy of your line of thinking. They thought killing was wrong too, even to defend themselves. I used to think like you do, (I'm not a fan of the government) but idealism has it's place.[/quote]

We're getting away from the basic argument. I'm firmly against the death penalty, I'll just leave it at that.

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;708124]What about when the State kills a convicted murderer who was later proven to be innocent? Is that murder? If so, who should be killed in retaliation for that? How do we settle that score?[/quote]

And I wonder how the family of the victim would deal with that. Two innocent people murdered?

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=Mattyk;708129]We're getting away from the basic argument. I'm firmly against the death penalty, I'll just leave it at that.[/quote]

Then don't murder or rape anyone in Virginia, and you'll have nothing to worry about. We do believe in the death penalty, especially for cop-killers and child molesting scum.

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=Trample the Elderly;708133]Then don't murder or rape anyone in Virginia, and you'll have nothing to worry about. We do believe in the death penalty, especially for cop-killers and child molesting scum.[/quote]

Thanks for the advice. I'll be careful to only murder and rape in non death penalty states. ;)

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=Schneed10;708127]A cost of doing business that I'm willing to accept, given today's increasing burden of proof when it comes to finding evidence required to obtain a conviction.

It's for the greater good. The accidental conviction and execution would have been done out of error, and therefore not equivocal to cold blooded murder.[/quote]

[quote=Trample the Elderly;708128]No, because there was no malicious intent.[/quote]

I'll buy the "greater good" argument, because it is a valid approach to moral reasoning -- not because I agree it is actually in the best interest of the people to grant the State the right to kill.

But, I won't buy the "warm blooded" argument. Just because a killing is planned, and absent of malicious intent, does not make it right.

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;708124][B]What about when the State kills a convicted murderer who was later proven to be innocent? Is that murder?[/B] If so, who should be killed in retaliation for that? How do we settle that score?[/quote]

Of course that is murder. An innocent person was intentionally killed.

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;708137]I'll buy the "greater good" argument, because it is a valid approach to moral reasoning -- not because I agree it is actually in the best interest of the people to grant the State the right to kill.

But, I won't buy the "warm blooded" argument. [B]Just because a killing is planned, and absent of malicious intent, does not make it right[/B].[/quote]

No Keilbasa for you then!

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=Schneed10;708126]What does that even mean? Seriously, that's so contrived.

I think of it as a right for a right. You take away someone else's right to live, then you lose your own. Fair's fair.

I'm not a fan of forgiving murderers.[/quote]

No one here has argued for forgiving murderers. Keeping someone in jail for life in maximum security is not forgiveness.

As far as the Gandhi quote goes, what is means is that the "eye-for-an-eye" philosophy which you espouse only leads to a downward spiral of violence.

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=Lotus;708140]No one here has argued for forgiving murderers. Keeping someone in jail for life in maximum security is not forgiveness.

As far as the Gandhi quote goes, what is means is that the "eye-for-an-eye" philosophy which you espouse [B]only leads to a downward spiral of violence[/B].[/quote]Not really. Murderer kills someone, gets convicted and sentenced to death, He is then killed. Spiral over.

And many of those sentenced to death have committed multiple murders, so eliminating them actually stops the spiral of violence.

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=Lotus;708140]No one here has argued for forgiving murderers. Keeping someone in jail for life in maximum security is not forgiveness.

As far as the Gandhi quote goes, what is means is that the "eye-for-an-eye" philosophy which you espouse only leads to a downward spiral of violence.[/quote]

I don't have a problem with "violence" (wrong term here) when it's designed to achieve something for the greater good.

Historical violence I'm in favor of:

- US Declaration of Independence and the subsequent Revolutionary War that resulted in the establishment of our nation in the name of freeing ourselves from England's oppressive rule

- Northern aggression that kept the United States together as the southern states seceded from the union in the 1800s.

- US retaliation for the bombing of Pearl Harbor and our subsequent response in the Pacific and against the Nazis.

- Beating up that punk ass bully who pantsed my little brother every day for 6 days in a row.

When it comes down to it, killing people who murdered others makes me feel good. I'd be one of the folks sitting in the front row cheering as he went out.

I don't believe in God or any higher power. I believe man is the ultimate rule of law, and as such ye shall reap what ye sow.

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=Trample the Elderly;708139]No Keilbasa for you then![/quote]

Killing a human is not the same as killing a pig, although I'd be willing to bet that the highest forms of civilization in our universe don't kill anything at all. But, since we're not there yet I'll just keep enjoying my bacon.

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;708141]Not really. Murderer kills someone, gets convicted and sentenced to death, He is then killed. Spiral over.

And many of those sentenced to death have committed multiple murders, so eliminating them actually stops the spiral of violence.[/quote]

Even though the State kills murderers, more murderers will come. Spiral on.

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=Mattyk;708090]Call it what you will but taking a human life is wrong. The law says so, no? But it's ok if the state does it? Sorry, can't buy that.[/quote]
Can you buy it as an act of war? In defense of ones country?
Could you buy it in defense of your wife? Child? Or.....just plain wrong in all cases as you have stated?

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;708150]Killing a human is not the same as killing a pig, although I'd be willing to bet that the highest forms of civilization in our universe don't kill anything at all. But, since we're not there yet I'll just keep enjoying my bacon.[/quote]

You have been watching too much star track. I could feel more sorrow for a pig then I could for some of the people on death row.

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=firstdown;708165]You have been watching too much [B]star track[/B]. I could feel more sorrow for a pig then I could for some of the people on death row.[/quote]

I would feel sorry for Usain Bolt, and only Usain Bolt.

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;708154]Even though the State kills murderers, more murderers will come. Spiral on.[/quote]

They'll come whether we kill them or not, therefore it's not a spiral.

Executing a killer does not make more people say you know what, I want to become a serial killer because I don't like that they executed that guy.

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=firstdown;708165]You have been watching too much star track. I could feel more sorrow for a pig then I could for some of the people on death row.[/quote]

Yeah, but bacon is [I]good[/I]. Pork chops are [I]good[/I].

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=Schneed10;708180]They'll come whether we kill them or not, therefore it's not a spiral.

Executing a killer does not make more people say you know what, I want to become a serial killer because I don't like that they executed that guy.[/quote]

You forget that condoning executions creates a culture of killing. Spiral on.

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

I have mixed feelings on the death penalty filled with subtle complexities. Primarily, I oppose “revenge killing” because I agree with Lotus that killing, whether by an individual or the State, done to exact revenge on another individual ultimately creates more hate. Throughout history, societies have recognized the destructive nature of such killings and have moved away from them in order to advance. As I have said before, Hammurabi’s Code – “an eye for an eye” - was actually a limitation on revenge killing because prior to that it had been “your arm, your leg and your child for my wife’s eye”.

At the same time, I generally agree with Schneed that a society can decide to deny the right of life in the interest of justice. We as a society are entitled to and expect that our government to provide “justice”. Again, look through history at most revolutions and civil wars, populations will put up with tyrants/dictators, etc. but not injustice. The right to deny life is just another one of those balancing acts between individual liberty and group rights that exist when groups of people live in civil society.

The question for me is when does societal “justice” become societal “revenge”. I would suggest that often the death penalty, as it is applied in this country, is unjust as it seems that you may or may not get the death penalty depending on who you murder. Kill a hobo and get life in prison, kill a prominent pretty white girl, get the death penalty. This smacks more of revenge killing, i.e. we, as a society, valued the life of the pretty white girl more than the life of the hobo so we exact more “justice” from you for killing our favored individual. In such a case, it is not the denial of life that cries for justice – it is the denial of a specific life.

So, on one hand, I favor a fairly draconian application, you commit murder (i.e. you kill some one with “malice aforethought” or with such a “wanton disregard for others safety” that is the equivalent of malice).

On the other hand, I disagree with Schneed’s “cost of doing business” argument. To me, society’s justification for imposing the ultimate penalty is dependent upon the certainty that the criminal has committed the ultimate crime. Imposing the death penalty upon someone when we cannot be 100% sure the person is guilty borders on “wanton disregard for others safety” and undercuts the very argument for society’s “just” application of the death penalty (When an individual intentional kills someone and denies the victim of their right to life, it is wrong; BUT, if we intentionally kill someone who has not committed such a crime that’s just a big ole’ “oops” too bad so sad. To me that is a blatantly hypocritical stance - circle back to unjust and revenge killings).

Ultimately, and in my opinion, justice is something we as a society decide and for which we are all answerable. I generally agree with Schneed that we, as a society, can decide that it is “just” to deny an individual his right to life. At the same time, in the name of justice, this penalty is reserved for those we are 100% sure are guilty. However, if we are 100% sure they are guilty of murder, it does not matter who you murdered - you will die. Anything other than this strikes me as unjust and/or a form of revenge killing.

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;708191]Yeah, but bacon is [I]good[/I]. Pork chops are [I]good[/I].[/quote]

Everything is better with bacon.

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

As an aside...bravo for a rather civilized discussion on a serious hot button issue. Please no one be a jackass and ruin this.

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=Lotus;708194]You forget that [I]condoning executions[/I] creates a culture of killing. Spiral on.[/quote]

Only if the execution is seen as unjust. Otherwise, and IMHO, a society's just killing is the ultimate condemnation of the murderer.

"Revenge shall be mine sayeth the Lord" but "Give unto Ceasar that which is Ceasar's". We have the right to govern and decide justice amongst ourselves.

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=Lotus;708194]You forget that condoning executions creates a culture of killing. Spiral on.[/quote]I don't recall any murders related to, or in retaliation of, a court ordered death sentence.

On a scale of 0 to 10 for a culture of killing, with a 0 being raising/nurturing baby bunnies and 10 being an MS-13 member at age 11, the death sentence is about a .01 in terms of contributing to a "culture of killing".