Re: Report: Redskins are pursuing Vincent Jackson
 

I say Shanny trades Kelly and a 2nd in 2012 for VJ. They seem to have no problem with trading future picks. That way the Chargers get an immediate return for a project WR they can work with, and a decent future pick.

Re: Report: Redskins are pursuing Vincent Jackson
 

GMScud I agree with you on trading our picks, but I don't see anyway we can land Jackson without giving them atleast a 2nd rounder. Id like to give Kelly and Thomas one more year but as I've said since day 1.. I trust Allen/shanny running this team. They are both proven winners in this league.

Re: Report: Redskins are pursuing Vincent Jackson
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;709737]GMScud I agree with you on trading our picks, but [B]I don't see anyway we can land Jackson without giving them atleast a 2nd rounder.[/B] Id like to give Kelly and Thomas one more year but as I've said since day 1.. I trust Allen/shanny running this team. They are both proven winners in this league.[/quote]

Exactly. Which is why I say we pass if they insist on pick(s) that high. Vincent Jackson isn't the piece that's taking us to the promised land, plus he has pending legal issues. He's a physical specimen and a damn good receiver, but not worth a pick that high to us.

VJ had 27 catches in his 2nd year (Devin Thomas had 25), and 41 in his third, and that was in an offense that had LT running the ball and Philip Rivers throwing it. And all of his first three years were in the same system. How's about we let Moss do his thing, Kelly and Thomas continue to grow for another season, see how some two TE sets look like with Cooley and Davis, all the while McNabb is slinging it. I'd take this scenario over dealing a 2nd rounder or higher for VJ.

I wouldn't be opposed to a trade involving swapping players, but I doubt that would happen without us also throwing in a draft pick or two, in addition to SD attaching some lower round picks to VJ in the move. So then my question becomes, at what point do you stop sacrificing future picks/current chemistry for names? In the case of this Vincent Jackson speculation, I would say hold your ground and work hard with what you have.

Re: Report: Redskins are pursuing Vincent Jackson
 

I haven't heard of this being anything more than standard inquiry

Re: Report: Redskins are pursuing Vincent Jackson
 

I would definetely look into this, but IMO he's not worth giving up our 1st. If San Diego's willing to take our 2nd and Kelly go for it, but a 1st for him is a bit too much. The only reason I'd make this deal is that Jackson is a proven WR in his prime whereas a 1st round WR next yr is an unknown. He's a huge target with some speed, but our track record for getting players who produce when they come here sucks. It'd be a gamble to expect the same production he had in SD. BTW he's gonna be suspended 4 games for his [B]2nd[/B] DUI, so he's also an off field problem.

Re: Report: Redskins are pursuing Vincent Jackson
 

Problem is this move is going to cost us our #1 next year and there is no way I make that deal. Gotta keep our first two picks next year.

Re: Report: Redskins are pursuing Vincent Jackson
 

Would love Vincent Jackson, but the price appears to be too steep. I doubt Shanny does this, for the simple fact that -- by talking about it in the media, the trade price has already gone up.

Every other deal was somewhat a surprise to fans, and they bought low (McNabb - somewhat out of blue, Brown - waited 5-6 months, Parker/Johnson, etc). Vincent Jackson, like Brandon Marshall and Julius Peppers -- all have a common theme. All were talked about in the media more than Shanny actually gave it any consideration. I bet Shanny's in the film room right now with his son, laughing at all the speculation.

My guess is -- any deals that go down, he's not going to let us know about it beforehand.

Re: Report: Redskins are pursuing Vincent Jackson
 

Vincent Jackson is a solid receiver but i think the asking price is gonna be too high. I think Shanahan wants to keep his 1st n 2nd round picks next year to build for the future. But with that you take the risk of drafting another Malcolm Kelly. At least Vincent Jackson is proven. Another scenerio ppl have failed to realize is a trade involving Laron Landry (I DO NOT SUPPORT THIS). But The Chargers just cut Keith Ellison (their starting SS) and Landry's name came up in trade rumors with the eagles earlier this season. Add that to the fact that he's had a bum toe and the coaching staff has been impressed with the starting combo of Moore & Doughty during OTAs. I'm only stating this cuz you guys wanted to know trade scenerios. IMO, Jackson is not worth Landry.

We could always try sending Haynesworth to Seattle or the Vikings, 4-3 teams, and have Seattle/Vikings give the Chargers picks and have us receive Jackson :-)

Re: Report: Redskins are pursuing Vincent Jackson
 

if San Diego wants 1st or 2nd rounder, Id say no f*ing way

Re: Report: Redskins are pursuing Vincent Jackson
 

Id trade Kelly/Moss and our 2nd next year for Jackson and their 4th.

Re: Report: Redskins are pursuing Vincent Jackson
 

[quote=steveo395;709718]Do not trade for him please!
We can't keep giving away all of our picks for players. This is the same shit we have been doing for the last 10 years. Why haven't you people learned yet. We are going to have to give up at least a first round pick, or two 2nds like the Marshall trade, he wants at least as much money as Marshall, and he is nowhere near as good as Marshall. He is not even the number one target on the Chargers, Antonio Gates is. His best year was last year and he only had 68 catches.

We are not one player away from the Super Bowl like some of you people think for some reason. We need to start getting younger by getting 22 year old rookies, not guys that are almost 30 looking for a big pay day. The only way to build a Super Bowl team is over many years through the draft.[/quote]

I agree with everything you just said, but one thing to add......................we just drafted two guys in the second round in Kelly and Thomas. This would be their first year playing in a real NFL Offense, not a flawed one that Zorn had. Lets see what they can do in a real offense. We should give them a chance and not just say, "Bye" after getting nothing out of them. We drafted these guys lets just see what they can do.

Re: Report: Redskins are pursuing Vincent Jackson
 

[quote=Schneed10;709674]I think we'd have to give up quite a lot to get the Chargers to part with this guy. The Chargers hold all the negotiating leverage with Jackson since he's currently a restricted free agent. They know that as long as they retain his rights, they can pretty much force him to play this year for the tender amount.

So for them to want to give up such a playmaking WR who they'll be able to keep for a low salary... you're talking a lot of compensation to tear him away from them.

Think about their receiving options, too. Behind Jackson they have a promising young guy in Malcolm Floyd, but I think moving him would leave them without adequate WR talent. That's not something you'd like to do when your offense is already carrying you to the playoffs.

I'm thinking this won't get done because Allen and Shanahan will balk at the what's sure-to-be-high asking price. But if I'm wrong and we can wrangle him loose for a low price, by all means go for it. Just don't pull a Vinny and give up a 1st.[/quote]
Best realistic and knowledgable post in this thread.

Jackson maybe holding out, true, and he has a qualifying RFA tender on the table. So why didn't teams go after him before June 14th? When qualifying offers were due to be signed as mandated by the league calendar?

Point in fact is Jackson is playing a dangerous game of "russian roulette" here. If he fails to show for camp, he faces fines. He'll show.

Additionally, since he is an unrestricted free agent, if he does not sign his tender by August 8th, then, he LOOSES another year of eligibility.

What that means is now his RFA is not for 6 years, he will have to wait 7 years before he can become an Unrestricted Free Agent.

Like Sneed said, the 'Bolts hold all the cards. Jackson is just delaying the inevitable.

Re: Report: Redskins are pursuing Vincent Jackson
 

[quote=drew54;709673]It's okay everyone, this time it will be different. A WR who is a hold out, will come to Washington, get paid and still care about winning.[/quote]


[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]This is kind of the way i feel. Plus as GmScud said Jackson started off slow, imo like most receivers. It was really only the last 2 years he took off. Its one thing to hold out of training camp, but its another to say youre gonna stay out 10 weeks because youre that disgruntled. And I know some people don’t like him, but I think Phillip Rivers is the best qb after Brady/Manning/Brees (no particularly order on those 3). [/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana] [/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]I would be down for some trades not involving any draft picks other then late rounders. What would be awesome is if San D wanted to switch to a 4-3, and we could also do some switches on defense too. Obviously that’s not gonna happen. [/FONT][/COLOR]

Re: Report: Redskins are pursuing Vincent Jackson
 

I think he will be the next Alvin Harper. I hope we stay away.

He has quieted down this offseason but last season he was all talk. He thinks he is Marshall and is constantly trying to hype imself.


[quote=Mattyk;709719]Sure he "only" had 68 catches last year, but let's not overlook the fact that Gates has always been Rivers' favorite target, he had 79 catches last year. And then Floyd and Sproles each had 45. San Diego spreads it around.

Bottom line is Jackson stretches the field. He averaged 17.2 per catch last year and 18.6 the year before. Oh and add in 16 TD catches the last 2 years.

He's huge, 6'5 230, and in his prime at 27.

I would have zero issues if the Skins go after him. Will it happen? Who knows, seems that the price would be steep. But the Skins would be dumb to not at least explore the option.[/quote]

Re: Report: Redskins are pursuing Vincent Jackson
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;709678]Can you Imagine Jackson, Thomas, Moss, Cooley and Davis.

Now that would make us a SB contender REAL FAST![/quote]

With Portis, LJ and Westbrook. :D



I'm all for going after Jackson. If would be great if we could lose Haynesworth in the deal.

Re: Report: Redskins are pursuing Vincent Jackson
 

[quote=mlmpetert;709785][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]This is kind of the way i feel. Plus as GmScud said Jackson started off slow, imo like most receivers. It was really only the last 2 years he took off. Its one thing to hold out of training camp, but its another to say youre gonna stay out 10 weeks because youre that disgruntled. And I know some people don’t like him, but I think Phillip Rivers is the best qb after Brady/Manning/Brees (no particularly order on those 3). [/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana] [/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]I would be down for some trades not involving any draft picks other then late rounders. What would be awesome is if San D wanted to switch to a 4-3, and we could also do some switches on defense too. Obviously that’s not gonna happen. [/FONT][/COLOR][/quote]


Sorry, I was being sarcastic. This guy will be an instant bum.

Re: Report: Redskins are pursuing Vincent Jackson
 

If it involves trading a 1st or 2nd I say don't do it. While the additions of Jamal Brown and Trent Williams have been great I think next year we need to use the 1st or 2nd round pick on a guard so we can keep upgrading the offensive line and also get younger - not too mention Casey Rabach is getting old and will need to be replaced as well at some point. Another thing to consider with the Skins is while McNabb is great and hopefully he resigns for a longer term I think at some point we need to think about drafting another qb with a higher pick. Finally I would also be considering RB as our current starters are all on the older side - although Shanhan is a master at finding some rb gems in the later rounds.

Re: Report: Redskins are pursuing Vincent Jackson
 

I'm on the fence on this one. I think he is good but not great, then again he is more proven than what we have here.

Re: Report: Redskins are pursuing Vincent Jackson
 

[quote=jamf;709802]I think he will be the next Alvin Harper. I hope we stay away.

He has quieted down this offseason but last season he was all talk. He thinks he is Marshall and is constantly trying to hype imself.[/quote]

Harper never came close to putting up the kind of numbers Jackson has.

I agree he's probably not worth the trouble. The more I read about him the more I tend to lean on the side of staying away from him. Sounds like he's probably facing a suspension to start the season too. Still, the guy is very talented. I don't really understand people hating on his game.

Re: Report: Redskins are pursuing Vincent Jackson
 

I think the major question is how disgruntle Jackson is?.....And has SD patients ran out with him? If so he very well might be steal for us.

Re: Report: Redskins are pursuing Vincent Jackson
 

[quote=drew54;709808]Sorry, I was being sarcastic. This guy will be an instant bum.[/quote]

Yeah, i feel the same way as you in a saracastic manner. He's just looking to get paid. Plus who would want to take a trade to get out of SD. I mean its one thing to pick where youre going as a FA, but wanting big money or a trade when youre on a pretty damn good team indicates that you only really care about the money.

Re: Report: Redskins are pursuing Vincent Jackson
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;709678]Can you Imagine Jackson, Thomas, Moss, Cooley and Davis.

Now that would make us a SB contender REAL FAST![/quote]

Are they going to block and rush the QB? WRs are irrelevant. Brady won 3 SBs with a bunch of scrubs and the Steelers didn't have any all-world talent at WR when they won theirs recently and Brees could have won last year with our bum WRs. Yawn.

Re: Report: Redskins are pursuing Vincent Jackson
 

[quote=Mattyk;709714]Perhaps the price was too high for Shanahan's liking with Marshall?

VJ is a heck of a WR, I'm not sure the drop off is very significant. He's led the league in avg YPC the past couple of seasons.[/quote]

I don't put Jackson in the same category as Marshall. I think Miami gave Denver a 2nd rounder which IMO is a steal for Miami. I'm not giving up a 2nd rounder for Jackson. It's just too risky. 3rd rounder and Kelly then I'd make the deal.

Re: Report: Redskins are pursuing Vincent Jackson
 

[quote=44Deezel;709815]Are they going to block and rush the QB? WRs are irrelevant. Brady won 3 SBs with a bunch of scrubs and the Steelers didn't have any all-world talent at WR when they won theirs recently and Brees could have won last year with our bum WRs. Yawn.[/quote]

We've massively upgraded and reinforced the O-line also. Calm down, Debbie.

Re: Report: Redskins are pursuing Vincent Jackson
 

WRs are irrelevant? I wouldn't go that far.

The Steelers didn't exactly have scrubs in Hines Ward and Santonio Holmes.

The Saints have a great group of WRs.

The Patriots might have had some no-names but a guy like Troy Brown was very solid and underrated.

Re: Report: Redskins are pursuing Vincent Jackson
 

[quote=44Deezel;709815]Are they going to block and rush the QB? WRs are irrelevant. Brady won 3 SBs with a bunch of scrubs and the Steelers didn't have any all-world talent at WR when they won theirs recently and Brees could have won last year with our bum WRs. Yawn.[/quote]

I would say there is some truth to this theory. If you've got a great QB then you can win w/out stud wr's.

Re: Report: Redskins are pursuing Vincent Jackson
 

I wouldnt give Jackson top 5 WR money, I wouldnt consider him "elite." If we give up a 1st or 2nd and then sign him to crazy money...I would consider that the first possible major mistake of the Allen/Shanny era...

Re: Report: Redskins are pursuing Vincent Jackson
 

Why not TO and keep the draft picks to use on a legit young WR hand picked by shannynext year.

Also any news on bryant westbrook?

Re: Report: Redskins are pursuing Vincent Jackson
 

Jackson is probably the one acquisition in the NFL that could take us from borderline playoff contender to borderline super bowl contender.

He's not young for his experience level, necessarily, but he's just a 5th year player who is 27 years old. That gives him 2 or 3 more years as an elite, top five, NFL wide receiver, which means he's worth a first round pick plus in compensation.

If the Redskins are going to acquire him, however, they'll need to get really creative, because we can't afford to give up our first and our second rounder to get this guy. Haynesworth probably isn't worth much value to San Diego, but other players on our roster very well might be.

I'd try to send over a 2012 first rounder, and a couple of players, perhaps Chris Horton and Santana Moss, or Carlos Rogers and Devin Thomas. That might get it done, if only because Jackson is in such heavy contract limbo, and could be a UFA next year if the CBA allows for it.

Word of caution is that AJ Smith might be the one NFL GM who is willing to let a valuable player sit out rather than overpay him. In the future, more GMs will play hardass with their players, but Smith, I think, is going to get run out of town for being a little ahead of his time.

Re: Report: Redskins are pursuing Vincent Jackson
 

[quote=44Deezel;709815]Are they going to block and rush the QB? WRs are irrelevant. Brady won 3 SBs with a bunch of scrubs and the Steelers didn't have any all-world talent at WR when they won theirs recently and Brees could have won last year with our bum WRs. Yawn.[/quote]Obviously, the big defensive "momentum swings" happen around the line of scrimmage and not down the field, which means that you can play defense/ball control without any meaningful downfield help and win a bunch of games doing so. In which case, you can probably get away without an elite quarterback as well.

With regard to quarterbacks, the biggest difference in expected return is between the worst five starting quarterbacks and the next five. Kyle Orton is worth a lot more yards/wins over the course of a season to Derek Anderson than Tom Brady is worth over Carson Palmer. It's just the nature of the game.

Receivers are kind of the opposite. Vincent Jackson is worth a LOT more than someone like Chad Ochocinco in terms of points scored. But if you can have TJ Houshmadzadeh or you can have, uh, Nate Burleson, then no, the difference between those players probably doesn't have an effect on points/wins.

If you're going to outscore teams on the other hand, you're going to have to find someone to do the scoring.

Re: Report: Redskins are pursuing Vincent Jackson
 

[quote=skinsfan69;709823]I don't put Jackson in the same category as Marshall. I think Miami gave Denver a 2nd rounder which IMO is a steal for Miami. I'm not giving up a 2nd rounder for Jackson. It's just too risky. 3rd rounder and Kelly then I'd make the deal.[/quote]Jackson averages [B]5 yards[/B] more per catch than Brandon Marshall [U]and[/U] catches a higher percentage of passes thrown to him. Both in 2009 and over their careers.

I think Rivers is better than Cutler/Orton, of course, but not THAT much better. It's not even close.

Re: Report: Redskins are pursuing Vincent Jackson
 

[quote=44Deezel;709815]Are they going to block and rush the QB? WRs are irrelevant. Brady won 3 SBs with a bunch of scrubs and the Steelers didn't have any all-world talent at WR when they won theirs recently and Brees could have won last year with our bum WRs. Yawn.[/quote]

When I read what 'skinsfaninok' read about Jackson, Thomas, Moss, Cooley and Davis making us SB contenders, I figured he was being sarcastic.

As you mentioned, I think WRs are probably one of the least worrisome problems on a SB team. You only really need an above average corp. to be super successful so I don't think we are Vincent Jackson away from being SB contenders.

I say we stick with our group - see whether the improved O-line and QB upgrade brings out any servicable production.

Save the picks -- we still have a lot of needs:
1. Offensive Line: Rabach is getting old, Hicks is a journeyman, BMW is not a long-term answer.
2. QB: McNabb is only good for what 2, maybe 3 more years? We need to draft a QB and have him sit for a few years. The ideal scenario would be a Favre-Rodgers scenario. Say what you want but Favre constantly coming back was a boon for Rodgers who got to sit and learn for a few years and is now lighting up the league. Way better than the Alex Smith situation...
3. LB: Fletcher is incredible, can't say enough about him but we need to inject some youth behind the defensive line. Most of our LBs (with the exception of Orakpo, Carter, and Wilson) are only OK

And you can never have too much talent all over the field so good draft picks for corners, tailbacks etc. can only be good for our team

Re: Report: Redskins are pursuing Vincent Jackson
 

[quote=44Deezel;709815]Are they going to block and rush the QB? WRs are irrelevant. Brady won 3 SBs with a bunch of scrubs and the Steelers didn't have any all-world talent at WR when they won theirs recently and Brees could have won last year with our bum WRs. Yawn.[/quote]

Great post! I wish Snyder and Cerrato had figured this out 10 years ago.
We should NOT give up any draft picks for any players this year. As someone else stated, we are not one player away from winning a SB, so do not mortgage the future.

Re: Report: Redskins are pursuing Vincent Jackson
 

I'd get him if the price is a 2nd rounder plus some late round pick (5th/6th/7th).

Re: Report: Redskins are pursuing Vincent Jackson
 

Anyone else getting the feeling that McNabb's window of time left before he starts to noticeably decline (2-3 years) is the window allen and shanny want to win a SB?

Just seems like we are in a win now or next year mode.

top 10 defense? check
Getting a franchise qb? check
Getting a LT and RT? check
Getting a true no. 1 receiver to reap the benefits of having a franchise qb and competent O line? TBD.

Re: Report: Redskins are pursuing Vincent Jackson
 

[quote=GTripp0012;709837]Jackson is probably the one acquisition in the NFL that could take us from borderline playoff contender to borderline super bowl contender.
[B]
He's not young for his experience level, necessarily, but he's just a 5th year player who is 27 years old. That gives him 2 or 3 more years as an elite, top five, NFL wide receiver, which means he's worth a first round pick plus in compensation.[/B]

If the Redskins are going to acquire him, however, they'll need to get really creative, because we can't afford to give up our first and our second rounder to get this guy. Haynesworth probably isn't worth much value to San Diego, but other players on our roster very well might be.

I'd try to send over a 2012 first rounder, and a couple of players, perhaps Chris Horton and Santana Moss, or Carlos Rogers and Devin Thomas. That might get it done, if only because Jackson is in such heavy contract limbo, and could be a UFA next year if the CBA allows for it.

Word of caution is that AJ Smith might be the one NFL GM who is willing to let a valuable player sit out rather than overpay him. In the future, more GMs will play hardass with their players, but Smith, I think, is going to get run out of town for being a little ahead of his time.[/quote]


I disagree that he's a top 5 WR (although physically I think he's probably a top 2 or 3 WR). He was 30th in the league in catches last year and has never topped the 70 catch mark. I think his best seasons are probably still in front of him though (depending on where he's playing). Brandon Marshall is a year younger and already has 3 100+ catch, 1100+ yard seasons in lesser offenses with lesser QBs than VJ. IMO Jackson's avg yards/catch still doesn't trump those numbers.

Plus there's the whole looming suspension thing.

Re: Report: Redskins are pursuing Vincent Jackson
 

[quote=saden1;709850]I'd get him if the price is a 2nd rounder plus some late round pick (5th/6th/7th).[/quote]

IMO that should be the price range. Miami gave up two second rounders for Brandon Marshall who is younger and statistically pretty dominant over VJ. No way we should give more than Miami did.

Re: Report: Redskins are pursuing Vincent Jackson
 

[quote=Mattyk;709677]I'm already daydreaming of McNabb bombing it away to Jackson[/quote]

Damit, it's happening to me too >.<

Re: Report: Redskins are pursuing Vincent Jackson
 

[quote=GMScud;709853]I disagree that he's a top 5 WR (although physically I think he's probably a top 2 or 3 WR). He was 30th in the league in catches last year and has never topped the 70 catch mark. I think his best seasons are probably still in front of him though (depending on where he's playing). Brandon Marshall is a year younger and already has 3 100+ catch, 1100+ yard seasons in lesser offenses with lesser QBs than VJ.

Plus there's the whole looming suspension thing.[/quote]While catches can be a pretty good measure of which receivers are getting open, you're probably just seeing the effects of having to share the football with Antonio Gates in an offense that throws a high % of it's passes to the running backs behind the line of scrimmage. Jackson catches an obscene (>60%) amount of his passes for a guy who does most of his work beyond the 15 yard zone, and while I can't doubt that a lot of that is the function of superb accuracy on the part of his QB (something he can't take with him), I certainly can't think of 5 receivers I'd rather have on my team.

More to the point, I can't think of a younger receiver than Jackson who is proven enough to warrant a first round pick in a trade.

Hopefully the suspension drives down the price tag on Jackson. If it doesn't, the Chargers are bad at understanding the business side of the NFL.

Re: Report: Redskins are pursuing Vincent Jackson
 

[quote=SkinzWin;709736]I say Shanny trades Kelly and a 2nd in 2012 for VJ. They seem to have no problem with trading future picks. That way the Chargers get an immediate return for a project WR they can work with, and a decent future pick.[/quote]

Ummmmmms, so Malcolm Kelly is considered immediate return??? LOL!!!!!! I haven't laughed that hard in a while.

Talking with a sports writer from the augusta chronicle who has friends in the DC area, he told me not to be surprised if we trade next years 2nd and 3rd along with A. Carter for the guy. I don't know if that is valid speculation, or just speculation.......