Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

[quote=GusFrerotte;737684]Yeah, Dock is our best linemen minus Trent and maybe Jamaal. To say he doesn't fit the scheme very well bodes ill for him next offseason. Other than that, not much new news to me. Our line is substandard in terms of depth. This overhauling of the team is going to take longer than what most folks want to admit.[/quote]

The deficiencies that currently beset the o/line will be corrected once the right combination of players are inserted, assignments are correctly carried out and players win their individual battles.

Both the system and players are new, the scheme requires consistent repetition and quite frankly, this unit hasn't had that and needs more time to perfect what it is they're trying to accomplish.

We continue to witness oscillation between optimism and pessimism as it relates to production in the running game. My judgement will remain reserved until enough games have been played to determine whether or not the problems we've seen thus far become a consistent pattern, or if we see them gradually corrected. I'm optimistic, but optimism will only take me so far, eventually comes that collision course with reality.

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

[quote=Longtimefan;737831]The deficiencies that currently beset the o/line will be corrected once the right combination of players are inserted, assignments are correctly carried out and players win their individual battles.

Both the system and players are new, the scheme requires consistent repetition and quite frankly, this unit hasn't had that and needs more time to perfect what it is they're trying to accomplish.

We continue to witness oscillation between optimism and pessimism as it relates to production in the running game. My judgement will remain reserved until enough games have been played to determine whether or not the problems we've seen thus far become a consistent pattern, or if we see them gradually corrected. I'm optimistic, but optimism will only take me so far, eventually comes that collision course with reality.[/quote]

I agree, 2 games is not enough to properly gauge where we're at. I'll wait until we're at least 4 games in before I start to draw any hard conclusions about where the running game is headed.

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

[quote=Mattyk;737599]I feel like the running game is the new WR concern, which quickly vanished after last week.

We'll get the running game cranking soon enough.[/quote]

I think the two are closely correlated; the lack of wr threats allows teams to play us in the box w/greater confidence that their secondary won't get burned.

Last night on comcast Rabach made an interesting point - that even though they didn't run the ball well, several play action plays were successful. That must mean dallas & houston were more concerned w/our running game & overplayed it to 'make McNabb & our recievers' beat them. Dallas was quite successful w/the strategy, Houston wasn't, even though we beat dallas & lost to houston!

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

[quote=Mattyk;737840]I agree, 2 games is not enough to properly gauge where we're at. I'll wait until we're at least 4 games in before I start to draw any hard conclusions about where the running game is headed.[/quote]

I agree...it sometimes takes up to half a season for a new offensive line to finally get it...especially with a new blocking scheme....too bad there was so much shuffling going on in the preseason, which could have sped up the process.

The thing about Dock suprises me...why do you "rotate" the oline during a game to begin with...I don't recall ever seeing that before....it is arguably a dangerous move because the oline needs to be in synch with each other and they need to know the nuances and the set up rushes of the defenders during the game, blitzing tendancies etc.

Yeah, they may be fresher, but changing pieces during the game on a supposed cohesive front 5 sounds a little strange to me.

The best thing to do is this...if you dont think you have the best player....bench him and play the same 5 all game....hell....all 16 games for about 5 years like most successful running teams do.

I do have issues with how the Skins see Dock...I agree that he is a power Guard..so use him that way....Is he one of the top 5 Olinemen? Yes...so find a way to play to his strengths...why not run some power plays to his side, or pull him and slam Sellers and him over the right side and give Portis the ball....remember, this guy did this before with a high degree of success and massive running yardage with Portis...to ignore that ability is stupid....Why is it zone or nothing?

A coach can do one of 2 things....
Run a scheme and select the players that match it
OR
Adjust a scheme to maximize the talents already on the team

I feel that this new coaching staff is doing the first.
Unfortunately, we are and will be missing the pieces for years to just "force the scheme" regardless of our personnel.

Take a look at the 3-4....take a look at the o-line.
Yes, they tried to acquire scheme players since they got here, such as drafting TW instead of that other guy. But think of talent on the team that is not scheme perfect that isn't being maxized....such as Dockery....considering benching him is stupid...he is not bad at all...he is just a masher, like most Guards...I am sure he would love to smash someone in the face...just call the damn play.

Other examples....Haynesworth not even playing, Philip Daniels....probably way better as a run stopping DE in a 4 man front than others. Devin Thomas isn't even playing WR...although he should be in the top 3 WR's. Trying to turn Sellers into a pass catcher...ok...that worked 1 week...but against Dallas, he sucked....he is a guard/FB for power rushing. Not to mention our stud backup TE who never seems to get on the field.

And if this team was so concerned about only picking up Scheme matchers, why did they pick up Larry "up the gut" Johnson? This team seems to be competely walking away from any ability to run a power game...which will kill you in short yardage, goal line situations.

What we need is this...
Use a hybrid power rushing game AND zone blocking.
Gibbs figured it out and used it well...why can't Shanny?
Lets maximize the talent on the team and stop trying to force a square peg through a round hole.

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

[quote=freddyg12;737845]I think the two are closely correlated; the lack of wr threats allows teams to play us in the box w/greater confidence that their secondary won't get burned.

Last night on comcast Rabach made an interesting point - that even though they didn't run the ball well, several play action plays were successful. That must mean dallas & houston were more concerned w/our running game & overplayed it to 'make McNabb & our recievers' beat them. Dallas was quite successful w/the strategy, Houston wasn't, even though we beat dallas & lost to houston![/quote]

It was nice to see all the playaction, I feel like it's been a while since we've seen it used regularly.

Some of the play designs were pretty sweet too, the misdirection, throwing back across the field, nice to finally have an OC that knows what he's doing.

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

[quote=Mattyk;737855]It was nice to see all the playaction, I feel like it's been a while since we've seen it used regularly.

Some of the play designs were pretty sweet too, the misdirection, throwing back across the field, nice to finally have an OC that knows what he's doing.[/quote]

Imagine how much more effective those play action passes will be when we finally get the running game going. The plays we saw Sunday off play action were done with the minimal threat of a run. This offense will be down-right scary when the running game does come around.

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

[quote=2BIG2BSKINNY;737728]Lichensteiger at one gaurd and Doc at the other than put Hicks at RT and Jamal Brown at Left... That is how I would do it...until Williams gets back!!![/quote]

Makes sense. Hicks can play RT, but Jamaal is our only other healthy LT-caliber lineman.

Heyer..go :benched:

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

Someone said here that he had never seen offensive linemen rotated during a game.

A coach named Paul Brown (RIP) - - you may have heard of him; if you go to Canton you can learn about him in the Hall of Fame - - used to rotate left guards on EVERY PLAY. They were "messenger guards" and that is how they brought the plays into the QBs.

Oh, the Browns won championships doing that.

Oh, one other thing, one of the "messenger guards" - - obviously getting in for only half of the offensive snaps - - was Gene Hickerson (RIP). If you visit Canton, you can learn all about him in the Hall of Fame too.

The Browns didn't use "messenger guards" because they were deficient on the offensive line. That is why it worked for them.

The Redskins rotate on the offensive lineman because neither of the guards in question stands out as a stud. That is why it only works sort of well for them.

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

Why does Will Montgomery #63 not get any love ? He's never dressed and I think at times he plays well.

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

[quote=Mattyk;737855]It was nice to see all the playaction, I feel like it's been a while since we've seen it used regularly.

Some of the play designs were pretty sweet too, the misdirection, throwing back across the field, nice to finally have an OC that knows what he's doing.[/quote]

It really was nice...and the ball got to where it's suppose to go, to the receiver! The sad part is we have no running game for the Texans to bite on. There's a reason why McNabb has the second best [URL="http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_int_perc_career.htm"]TD to INT ratio[/URL] of all time.

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

[quote=saden1;738011]It really was nice...and the ball got to where it's suppose to go, to the receiver! The sad part is we have no running game for the Texans to bite on. There's a reason why McNabb has the second best [URL="http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_int_perc_career.htm"]TD to INT ratio[/URL] of all time.[/quote]

Rodgers...deep balls all over the place...beating Checkdown Campbell...is itz possible-skis?

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

[quote=sportscurmudgeon;738007]Someone said here that he had never seen offensive linemen rotated during a game.

A coach named Paul Brown (RIP) - - you may have heard of him; if you go to Canton you can learn about him in the Hall of Fame - - used to rotate left guards on EVERY PLAY. They were "messenger guards" and that is how they brought the plays into the QBs.

Oh, the Browns won championships doing that.

Oh, one other thing, one of the "messenger guards" - - obviously getting in for only half of the offensive snaps - - was Gene Hickerson (RIP). If you visit Canton, you can learn all about him in the Hall of Fame too.

The Browns didn't use "messenger guards" because they were deficient on the offensive line. That is why it worked for them.

The Redskins rotate on the offensive lineman because neither of the guards in question stands out as a stud. That is why it only works sort of well for them.[/quote]

Well done.

Back in the day before radio headsets in helmets, many teams used messenger guards to bring in the play call.

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

[quote=DCtoAZ;738010]Why does Will Montgomery #63 not get any love ?[B] He's never dressed [/B]and I think at times he plays well.[/quote]

I think you answered your own question.

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

Montgomery sucks my nads..........

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

[quote=Mechanix544;738028]Montgomery sucks my nads..........[/quote]
Thread Hell, here we come.

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

[quote=Mechanix544;738028]Montgomery sucks my nads..........[/quote]

So he doesn't get any love, but you get his love?

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

Montgomery is strictly a backup. He should never be starting a season for anyone, especially when I saw him play last year, how slow he was getting out of his stances, and how he would get driven into the backfield on run plays.

The only thing I give him is a pat on the back for making the squad this year.

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

[quote=Lotus;738052]So he doesn't get any love, but you get his love?[/quote]

burn.... feel it....:cheeky-sm

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

I am all for finding a combination of lineman that produce maximum results, however with this type of scheme there needs to be that cohesion and mixing and matching through out the game doesn't seem to be getting it done. The pass protection seems to be pretty decent all though McNabb has the ability to move around a quite bit more than what we are use to seeing. Hopefully as teams realize McNabb can shred them if they keep playing 8 in the box, it will open up some running lanes. It would just seem to me if Dockery is that much in question, then you replace him and let the other guy (forgot his name) play. From what I have seen of him he doesn't seem to be all that bad and this is with limited action in recent years. It would seem to reason with game reps and constant playing time he would end up being a pretty good lineman for Shanny. Brown is playing out of position. he is a probowler for a reason. He just has to adjust to playing a different side with different techniques. I dont think he has been horrible, pretty solid. The only thing i question is when they traded for him, why he wasn't moved to left and Trent play the right, which i thought was a more natural position for him coming out of college.

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

Anyone know why Montgomery was out there today for Hicks?

Edit: Never mind

granthpaulsen
Artis Hicks was sick. He tried to play through it but couldn't. Shouldn't be a lingering issue for the #Redskins

MikeJonesTBD
Artis Hicks said in the locker room that he was feeling sick, and couldn't keep playing. He was disappointed, but relieved that the team won

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

FYI .. Montgomery played pretty decent today especially in the 2nd half .. so for that "Montgomery sucks my nads" comment earlier .. f - u

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

Funny, I didn't even realize Hicks was out. He was in there at one point though, no? Could have swore I noticed him on Torain's TD run.

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

hicks left toward the end of the first half

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

do we all agree that heyer is the weak link...or is it just me? clearly other people realise that he's not good.

what's the status on trent williams? i should be all over this...had to go to a wedding this weekend...creeping back to being sober now.

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

Outside of the penalties I thought Heyer's blocking was pretty good. Yes the penalties are an issue, I'm not downplaying that, but he did block well. We ran his way quite a bit.

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

[quote=Mattyk;742909]Outside of the penalties I thought Heyer's blocking was pretty good. Yes the penalties are an issue, I'm not downplaying that, but he did block well. We ran his way quite a bit.[/quote]

agreed...I thought the entire Oline played incredibly well. Jamal Brown had his best game of the season, he was running the over people on the run plays. Rabauch people great too. Just really really happy with the Oline run blocking...Philly seems grossly undersized along their Dline, we were really pushing them around the first half opening holes for Torrain and Portis

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

[quote=Mattyk;742909]Outside of the penalties I thought Heyer's blocking was pretty good. Yes the penalties are an issue, I'm not downplaying that, but he did block well. We ran his way quite a bit.[/quote]

I'd be more forgiving of his penalties if they were necessary. Like the Eagles are rushing 6 games on a blitz and Sellers just missed his block and the only way McNabb isn't laid flat on his ass is if Heyer holds. Most of his penalties though are just lapses in concentration on his part.

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

[quote=SmootSmack;742917]I'd be more forgiving of his penalties if they were necessary. Like the Eagles are rushing 6 games on a blitz and Sellers just missed his block and the only way McNabb isn't laid flat on his ass is if Heyer holds. Most of his penalties though are just lapses in concentration on his part.[/quote]

Yeah, either he lacks focus or his football IQ is low. That hold where he basically reached out and tripped a guy was just dumb.

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

[quote=Mattyk;742909]Outside of the penalties I thought Heyer's blocking was pretty good. Yes the penalties are an issue, I'm not downplaying that, but he did block well. We ran his way quite a bit.[/quote]

I'd be more forgiving if they weren't so clutch. Always seems like his penalties come at the absolute worst time. He played better than I expected, but TW can't get back soon enough.

I think just overall the line is starting to come together a lot more in the zone scheme and there were cut-back lanes all day.

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

Heyer's penalties seem, too often, to be drive killing penalties that happen at the worst possible time. False start penalties do nothing to protect your QB. I understand if you're going to get called for an occasional holding call or false start. It happens to the best linemen in the league. But, you can count on Stephon Heyer having at least three to four penalties a game.

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

Heyer is a competent BACKUP tackle. That's all he is. If we have to rely on him to start we're in trouble. Same with every other team in the league and their backup tackles. Especially at LT. He isn't going to physically dominant so we're going to have to endure penalties and whiffs from him. Like skinsguy said...TW can't get back soon enough.

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

[quote=FRPLG;742929]Heyer is a competent BACKUP tackle. That's all he is. If we have to rely on him to start we're in trouble. Same with every other team in the league and their backup tackles. Especially at LT. He isn't going to physically dominant so we're going to have to endure penalties and whiffs from him. Like skinsguy said...TW can't get back soon enough.[/quote]

I'm not sure about that. Was Doug Free a holding and false start machine when he filled in for Flozell? Not sure because I can't catch every Cowpuke game....

Or Jeremy Bridges for Arizona?

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

[quote=FRPLG;742929]Heyer is a competent BACKUP tackle. That's all he is. If we have to rely on him to start we're in trouble. Same with every other team in the league and their backup tackles. Especially at LT. He isn't going to physically dominant so we're going to have to endure penalties and whiffs from him. Like skinsguy said...TW can't get back soon enough.[/quote]

You summed it up well. Truth is if we cut Heyer tomorrow, like some think we should, he'd be on another NFL roster in a New York minute. Sure, he's just okay but most back-up tackles are.

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

I was thinking about how Heyer could help at center. Then, he wouldn't false start! And we could sit Rabach!


Aaaaah, but then we would still have all of his holding penalties to worry about.

Maybe we should cut him using the same logic I said at this time last year.

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

[quote=12thMan;742934]You summed it up well. Truth is if we cut Heyer tomorrow, like some think we should, he'd be on another NFL roster in a New York minute. Sure, he's just okay but most back-up tackles are.[/quote]

I agree. One of our biggest problems the last few years has been lack of depth on the o-line. Everytime a starter went down we were screwed. Heyer serves a purpose here and I think he contributes when needed.

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

Heyer doesn't get schooled at LT. I can't see how we can expect much more from him. He's not a matador over there.

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

[quote=FRPLG;742986]Heyer doesn't get schooled at LT. I can't see how we can expect much more from him. He's not a matador over there.[/quote]

If Heyer was a Cowboy we'd be having a field day with the way he played yesterday, yet because he is one of us we're turned into apologist.